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BUILDING AN ELECTRIC BICYCLE AKA PEDELEC
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Andre Jute
May 24, 2012, 10:45:21 PM5/24/12
to
At the request of several members of another forum I've described the
electrification of my bicycle in six photo essays. If anyone is
interested, my general bicycling page is at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
and the electrification articles start at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
Andre Jute
electrification of my bicycle in six photo essays. If anyone is
interested, my general bicycling page is at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
and the electrification articles start at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
Andre Jute
Lou Holtman
May 26, 2012, 7:34:21 AM5/26/12
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Op 25-5-2012 4:45, Andre Jute schreef:
Geez Andre that bike doesn't get any lighter with all that stuff you
bolting and hanging on ;-).
I'm still amazed about the huge 'succes' of electric assisted bikes here
in the Netherlands. Today it's a very nice day and when I go for a ride
this afternoon with a lot of leisure riding that will be going on I'm
conviced that more that 50% of the 50+ people I see will be on a E-bike.
Sometimes I get the impression that we getting lazy over here.
Recent study showed that the accidents involving elderly increased
signifantly.
Lou
bolting and hanging on ;-).
I'm still amazed about the huge 'succes' of electric assisted bikes here
in the Netherlands. Today it's a very nice day and when I go for a ride
this afternoon with a lot of leisure riding that will be going on I'm
conviced that more that 50% of the 50+ people I see will be on a E-bike.
Sometimes I get the impression that we getting lazy over here.
Recent study showed that the accidents involving elderly increased
signifantly.
Lou
Andre Jute
May 26, 2012, 1:50:26 PM5/26/12
to
On May 26, 12:34 pm, Lou Holtman <lou.holt...@usenet.nl> wrote:
> Op 25-5-2012 4:45, Andre Jute schreef:
>
> > At the request of several members of another forum I've described the
> > electrification of my bicycle in six photo essays. If anyone is
> > interested, my general bicycling page is athttp://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
> Op 25-5-2012 4:45, Andre Jute schreef:
>
> > At the request of several members of another forum I've described the
> > electrification of my bicycle in six photo essays. If anyone is
> > and the electrification articles start athttp://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
>
> > Andre Jute
>
> Geez Andre that bike doesn't get any lighter with all that stuff you
> bolting and hanging on ;-).
Makes it more difficult to steal. <g>
> > Andre Jute
>
> Geez Andre that bike doesn't get any lighter with all that stuff you
> bolting and hanging on ;-).
> I'm still amazed about the huge 'succes' of electric assisted bikes here
> in the Netherlands. Today it's a very nice day and when I go for a ride
> this afternoon with a lot of leisure riding that will be going on I'm
> conviced that more that 50% of the 50+ people I see will be on a E-bike.
> Sometimes I get the impression that we getting lazy over here.
> Recent study showed that the accidents involving elderly increased
> signifantly.
>
> Lou
hills after heart surgery. I still pedal like mad.
Andre Jute
Lou Holtman
May 27, 2012, 3:05:03 AM5/27/12
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Op 26-5-2012 19:50, Andre Jute schreef:
>
> My installation is pretty modest. Just enough to let me get up the
> hills after heart surgery. I still pedal like mad.
>
> Andre Jute
That is a perfectly OK application for a E-bike. Hope you are OK after
your surgery?
Lou
>
> My installation is pretty modest. Just enough to let me get up the
> hills after heart surgery. I still pedal like mad.
>
> Andre Jute
your surgery?
Lou
Andre Jute
May 27, 2012, 1:38:43 PM5/27/12
to
so fit generally that my target respiration rate was cut by only
12bpm, so that it is still about a sixth higher than would be
forecast from a textbook for my age group and medication.
Andre Jute
datakoll
May 27, 2012, 1:45:00 PM5/27/12
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is Jute the concessionaire ? a minion ?
do the locals place crosses roadside ?
do the locals place crosses roadside ?
datakoll
May 28, 2012, 1:02:34 PM5/28/12
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Would you record performance over time/distance, report back ?
offer thoughts on weaknesses, suggest redsesign, improvements in general ?
I see electrics maybe 2-3 times a year for 6 years, new from Walmart, only one used (and poorly maintained)
offer thoughts on weaknesses, suggest redsesign, improvements in general ?
I see electrics maybe 2-3 times a year for 6 years, new from Walmart, only one used (and poorly maintained)
JennyB
May 29, 2012, 6:16:14 AM5/29/12
to
I've had a home-built ebikes for about 18 months now - a Trek 7.1FX with a 350 watt hub motor. I find that on a moderately hilly 22 mile route it's the difference between an average speed of twelve and 18 mph.
Like Andre, I use it purely as an assist. It won't climb much of a hill on its own, and for best efficiency you need to put in enough power of your own to keep the speed above your speed above 10 mph. Used like that, I allow 10 watt hours of battery per mile of easy road and add a kilometre for every 20 metres to be climbed, plus or minus another kilometre for every 20 metres the finish is above or below the start. With my 12-pound 36v 15 amp-hour battery I have enough range for day rides of 40-50 miles. I'm planning a tour next month where I'll be carrying chargers that can restore 30 miles of range in an hour's stop at any socket.
Like Andre, I use it purely as an assist. It won't climb much of a hill on its own, and for best efficiency you need to put in enough power of your own to keep the speed above your speed above 10 mph. Used like that, I allow 10 watt hours of battery per mile of easy road and add a kilometre for every 20 metres to be climbed, plus or minus another kilometre for every 20 metres the finish is above or below the start. With my 12-pound 36v 15 amp-hour battery I have enough range for day rides of 40-50 miles. I'm planning a tour next month where I'll be carrying chargers that can restore 30 miles of range in an hour's stop at any socket.
Lou Holtman
May 29, 2012, 10:12:06 AM5/29/12
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Op 29-5-2012 12:16, JennyB schreef:
Lou
> I've had a home-built ebikes for about 18 months now - a Trek 7.1FX with a 350 watt hub motor. I find that on a moderately hilly 22 mile route it's the difference between an average speed of twelve and 18 mph.
>
> Like Andre, I use it purely as an assist. It won't climb much of a hill on its own, and for best efficiency you need to put in enough power of your own to keep the speed above your speed above 10 mph. Used like that, I allow 10 watt hours of battery per mile of easy road and add a kilometre for every 20 metres to be climbed, plus or minus another kilometre for every 20 metres the finish is above or below the start. With my 12-pound 36v 15 amp-hour battery I have enough range for day rides of 40-50 miles. I'm planning a tour next month where I'll be carrying chargers that can restore 30 miles of range in an hour's stop at any socket.
Why is speed and average speed so important?
>
> Like Andre, I use it purely as an assist. It won't climb much of a hill on its own, and for best efficiency you need to put in enough power of your own to keep the speed above your speed above 10 mph. Used like that, I allow 10 watt hours of battery per mile of easy road and add a kilometre for every 20 metres to be climbed, plus or minus another kilometre for every 20 metres the finish is above or below the start. With my 12-pound 36v 15 amp-hour battery I have enough range for day rides of 40-50 miles. I'm planning a tour next month where I'll be carrying chargers that can restore 30 miles of range in an hour's stop at any socket.
Lou
datakoll
May 29, 2012, 1:38:29 PM5/29/12
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not that i want to degenerate a deep philosophical and psychological discussion or open a tatoo parlor
but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
giving Jute a disabilty waiver
but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
giving Jute a disabilty waiver
JennyB
May 29, 2012, 5:41:44 PM5/29/12
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Andre Jute
May 29, 2012, 6:02:38 PM5/29/12
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On May 29, 3:12 pm, Lou Holtman <lou.holt...@usenet.nl> wrote:
> Op 29-5-2012 12:16, JennyB schreef:
>
> > I've had a home-built ebikes for about 18 months now - a Trek 7.1FX with a 350 watt hub motor. I find that on a moderately hilly 22 mile route it's the difference between an average speed of twelve and 18 mph.
Over here the top legal motor is 250W. My average in the hilly country
> Op 29-5-2012 12:16, JennyB schreef:
>
> > I've had a home-built ebikes for about 18 months now - a Trek 7.1FX with a 350 watt hub motor. I find that on a moderately hilly 22 mile route it's the difference between an average speed of twelve and 18 mph.
in which I live was always roundabout 10mph, including quite a few
very fast downhills. It's still about the same but the motor is strong
enough, and the 8.8Ah battery has enough juice over my normal sort of
ride of about ten miles, to bump it up a few mph if I want to. But I'm
not trying to leave the pedal pals behind, just to stay with them on
the hills. They're used me leaving them behind on the downhills...
> > Like Andre, I use it purely as an assist. It won't climb much of a hill on its own, and for best efficiency you need to put in enough power of your own to keep the speed above your speed above 10 mph. Used like that, I allow 10 watt hours of battery per mile of easy road and add a kilometre for every 20 metres to be climbed, plus or minus another kilometre for every 20 metres the finish is above or below the start. With my 12-pound 36v 15 amp-hour battery I have enough range for day rides of 40-50 miles. I'm planning a tour next month where I'll be carrying chargers that can restore 30 miles of range in an hour's stop at any socket.
discussion of electrified bikes we had last year or the year before
while I was looking into it, that an Amp-hour per mile was about right
for reckoning a battery's range on mixed roads. One of the parameters
I chose my kit by was that the battery, with Panasonic cells, is known
to be extremely conservatively rated, so I'm not surprised that I
haven't yet on any of my rides, which are all 16-25km circles, managed
to wipe the battery, though I've tried. The nearest I came wasn't on
hills but one morning at dawn in sub-zero temps when I had a clear run
on an icy but flat and wide highway, and just put her in the corner;
12 miles at full speed still left enough in the battery to get me up
the hill before my house, though only two of the condition indicators
were lit and the off ones were taking up to 30 seconds to light up
again. I've never managed to switch them off permanently; the battery
has always recovered by the time I have the bike home and parked. (I'm
not quite sure whether those lights show "battery full" -- pretty
unlikely after 12m at full throttle -- or simply the capability to
deliver 14A even for a second or a few, which is what my setup is
limited to by the controller box.) BTW, it is a legal requirement to
have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
> Why is speed and average speed so important?
>
> Lou
except that I don't want to hold up my regular riding companions. They
go pretty slow anyway by roadie standards -- we ride along looking at
the animals and carrying on conversations, and idiots with something
to prove aren't invited again -- so it is just a question of keeping
up on the hills. The original purpose of my electrical installation
was to get me up the very steep hill before my house without pushing;
it was only afterwards that further necessities arose, and I was very
happy to have it the motor already fitted.
I'm not so sure that, if speed from batteries is your primary concern,
you want to start with a pedal bike. Something lower, more
aerodynamic, and with a lower centre of gravity will probably be
superior. There are quite a few successful installations on
recumbents. Tom Sherman's velomobile strikes me as the ideal base for
a speed freak electrification project.
Andre Jute
Andre Jute
May 29, 2012, 6:18:57 PM5/29/12
to
doubt his membership of the human race. I just ignore his impertinent
interjections and his sidesplitting pretensions to be the arbiter of
what is admissible on RBT. -- Andre Jute
thirty-six
May 29, 2012, 9:08:38 PM5/29/12
to
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 12:09:39 AM5/30/12
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On 5/29/2012 5:18 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On May 29, 10:41 pm, JennyB<jennybr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 18:38:29 UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
>>> not that i want to degenerate a deep philosophical and psychological discussion or open a tatoo parlor
>>
>>> but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
>>
>>> they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
>>
>>> giving Jute a disabilty waiver
>>
>> If I didn't enjoy bicycling I'd have got myself a Honda 90. Some people do build powerful ebikes that can out-sprint a sportsbike and still (just) be ridden like a bicycle. Check out the Endless Sphere forum if that interests you. As for me, I'm a full-time carer for a 96 year old mother with dementia, and being able to get out on the bike is what keeps me sane. Being able to cycle as far and as fast as I could forty years ago is a welcome bonus.
>
Pretty fast E-bike if it outruns a sport-bike. ;)
> On May 29, 10:41 pm, JennyB<jennybr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 18:38:29 UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
>>> not that i want to degenerate a deep philosophical and psychological discussion or open a tatoo parlor
>>
>>> but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
>>
>>> they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
>>
>>> giving Jute a disabilty waiver
>>
>> If I didn't enjoy bicycling I'd have got myself a Honda 90. Some people do build powerful ebikes that can out-sprint a sportsbike and still (just) be ridden like a bicycle. Check out the Endless Sphere forum if that interests you. As for me, I'm a full-time carer for a 96 year old mother with dementia, and being able to get out on the bike is what keeps me sane. Being able to cycle as far and as fast as I could forty years ago is a welcome bonus.
>
> Daniels isn't the most sensitive human being around RBT; in fact some
> doubt his membership of the human race.
> I just ignore his impertinent
> interjections and his sidesplitting pretensions to be the arbiter of
> what is admissible on RBT. -- Andre Jute
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 12:27:36 AM5/30/12
to
On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> [...]
velomobile, here is a Quest. 55 kph on a 7% *uphill* grade - motor must
be around 1500W or so.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalqEEZVs0c>
> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> [...]
> I'm not so sure that, if speed from batteries is your primary concern,
> you want to start with a pedal bike. Something lower, more
> aerodynamic, and with a lower centre of gravity will probably be
> superior. There are quite a few successful installations on
> recumbents. Tom Sherman's velomobile strikes me as the ideal base for
> a speed freak electrification project.
Not approved by Trisled. However, if you want a fast electric assist
> you want to start with a pedal bike. Something lower, more
> aerodynamic, and with a lower centre of gravity will probably be
> superior. There are quite a few successful installations on
> recumbents. Tom Sherman's velomobile strikes me as the ideal base for
> a speed freak electrification project.
velomobile, here is a Quest. 55 kph on a 7% *uphill* grade - motor must
be around 1500W or so.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jalqEEZVs0c>
datakoll
May 30, 2012, 1:32:52 AM5/30/12
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ahhhhh S ....
another degenerative discussion
itsa disease.
Jute, who is a Euro, was asked to continue with expertise on Ebikes developing a records keeping for his Ebike experience
and look what the ugly reply is.
SACRE BLUE !
COUPLA DAYS ago i emailed an S&T routing taken fron FIELD GUIDE TO THE SAN ANDREAS FAULT thru San Fransisco from the giftees home town,,,,3.5 hours to do this turn by turn...
and he posted shit on me for it....
disease ! Itsnit the discussion, its positioning the megomanic ego, the prime for bringing them here in cyberspace.
another degenerative discussion
itsa disease.
Jute, who is a Euro, was asked to continue with expertise on Ebikes developing a records keeping for his Ebike experience
and look what the ugly reply is.
SACRE BLUE !
COUPLA DAYS ago i emailed an S&T routing taken fron FIELD GUIDE TO THE SAN ANDREAS FAULT thru San Fransisco from the giftees home town,,,,3.5 hours to do this turn by turn...
and he posted shit on me for it....
disease ! Itsnit the discussion, its positioning the megomanic ego, the prime for bringing them here in cyberspace.
datakoll
May 30, 2012, 1:37:50 AM5/30/12
to
the lady's answer is recorded.
in humor, we ask what is 'assist' not demeaning Jute or his dietary or drinking habits
but searching around for what people 'are' when going with an electric bike.
I could write a list but doing that isn't an inquiry only creative writing or semicreative writing
write in Dylan
in humor, we ask what is 'assist' not demeaning Jute or his dietary or drinking habits
but searching around for what people 'are' when going with an electric bike.
I could write a list but doing that isn't an inquiry only creative writing or semicreative writing
write in Dylan
datakoll
May 30, 2012, 1:50:10 AM5/30/12
to
not approved by whom ? Trisled. what is Trisled ? sounds ominous.
Boy, Jutes condition took the bejesus out of him, sounds tired. No more incautious insults to the down under group.
Does AJ wear a heart monitor ? remeber our lost moon astronaut ? I stopped X country skiing in deference. Heart rate too hi for 66.
Boy, Jutes condition took the bejesus out of him, sounds tired. No more incautious insults to the down under group.
Does AJ wear a heart monitor ? remeber our lost moon astronaut ? I stopped X country skiing in deference. Heart rate too hi for 66.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 7:59:52 AM5/30/12
to
On 5/30/2012 12:50 AM, datakoll wrote:
> not approved by whom ? Trisled. what is Trisled ? sounds ominous.
> [...]
> not approved by whom ? Trisled. what is Trisled ? sounds ominous.
Hardly ominous.
<http://www.trisled.com.au/rotovelo.asp>
datakoll
May 30, 2012, 11:00:59 AM5/30/12
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a new shape ! more wing less torpedo.
The velo you own os the one from BC ?
has a velo appeared with coil spring or torsion bar suspension with shocks ?
The velo you own os the one from BC ?
has a velo appeared with coil spring or torsion bar suspension with shocks ?
JennyB
May 30, 2012, 4:49:34 PM5/30/12
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On Wednesday, 30 May 2012 05:09:39 UTC+1, Tom $herman (-_-) wrote:
> On 5/29/2012 5:18 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 29, 10:41 pm, JennyB<jennybr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 18:38:29 UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
> >>> not that i want to degenerate a deep philosophical and psychological discussion or open a tatoo parlor
> >>
> >>> but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
> >>
> >>> they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
> >>
> >>> giving Jute a disabilty waiver
> >>
> >> If I didn't enjoy bicycling I'd have got myself a Honda 90. Some people do build powerful ebikes that can out-sprint a sportsbike and still (just) be ridden like a bicycle. Check out the Endless Sphere forum if that interests you. As for me, I'm a full-time carer for a 96 year old mother with dementia, and being able to get out on the bike is what keeps me sane. Being able to cycle as far and as fast as I could forty years ago is a welcome bonus.
> >
> Pretty fast E-bike if it outruns a sport-bike. ;)
Well, only for the first 40 yards or so - but it's still pretty impressive. Modern li-poly batteries (as in rc models) can dump power very fast, so you can get 20 kw+ from a very small battery. You can go far or go fast, but not both on the same trip. I prefer far.
> On 5/29/2012 5:18 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On May 29, 10:41 pm, JennyB<jennybr...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, 29 May 2012 18:38:29 UTC+1, datakoll wrote:
> >>> not that i want to degenerate a deep philosophical and psychological discussion or open a tatoo parlor
> >>
> >>> but why are these people saying "I use it for an assist" What is assist ?
> >>
> >>> they don't enjoy bicycling or ?
> >>
> >>> giving Jute a disabilty waiver
> >>
> >> If I didn't enjoy bicycling I'd have got myself a Honda 90. Some people do build powerful ebikes that can out-sprint a sportsbike and still (just) be ridden like a bicycle. Check out the Endless Sphere forum if that interests you. As for me, I'm a full-time carer for a 96 year old mother with dementia, and being able to get out on the bike is what keeps me sane. Being able to cycle as far and as fast as I could forty years ago is a welcome bonus.
> >
> Pretty fast E-bike if it outruns a sport-bike. ;)
Andre Jute
May 30, 2012, 7:23:51 PM5/30/12
to
carrying Benthamite, with a firm belief in the fuckup/muddlethrough
theory of history. Utopians need to believe in the conspiracy theory
of history, and by extension that their little conspiracy to make us
all do what they think is good for us will succeed. I trust this
knowledge illuminates your day. -- Andre Jute
Andre Jute
May 30, 2012, 7:26:17 PM5/30/12
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On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> > have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> > cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> > accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> > have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> > cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> > accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
Nate Nagel
May 30, 2012, 7:42:51 PM5/30/12
to
limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
unassisted bike can fairly easily attain on a flat road? Makes no
sense, but I guess not everything does.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 8:13:18 PM5/30/12
to
legal, one presumes.
Andre Jute
May 30, 2012, 9:01:57 PM5/30/12
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On May 31, 1:13 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
He could be legal by going through all the folderol that cars have to
go through before they can be registered and licensed on the road.
The Quest might sneak in under some low-run special vehicle
exemptions, but, failing that, I doubt it can be made legal.
When electric bicyclists over here use the word "legal", they almost
always refer to the specification for what is called a "pedelec",
which is defined as a bicycle with an electric motor for assistance to
the pedals not exceeding an average output of 250W. "Average" can of
course hide more than it reveals, but I don't think the 1500W motor
you mentioned earlier in relation to the 55kph can by any hook or
crook or stretch of the imagination made to pass for "250W average".
The advantage of this scheme for bicyclists is that they can run
electric bicycles which fall within the parameters without
registration or license fees, just like bicycles. In our over-
regulated world that is a rare and wonderful privilege that we should
treasure. (As Chalo was first to point out.)
Andre Jute
go through before they can be registered and licensed on the road.
The Quest might sneak in under some low-run special vehicle
exemptions, but, failing that, I doubt it can be made legal.
When electric bicyclists over here use the word "legal", they almost
always refer to the specification for what is called a "pedelec",
which is defined as a bicycle with an electric motor for assistance to
the pedals not exceeding an average output of 250W. "Average" can of
course hide more than it reveals, but I don't think the 1500W motor
you mentioned earlier in relation to the 55kph can by any hook or
crook or stretch of the imagination made to pass for "250W average".
The advantage of this scheme for bicyclists is that they can run
electric bicycles which fall within the parameters without
registration or license fees, just like bicycles. In our over-
regulated world that is a rare and wonderful privilege that we should
treasure. (As Chalo was first to point out.)
Andre Jute
Andre Jute
May 30, 2012, 9:08:58 PM5/30/12
to
On May 31, 12:42 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> > $southslope.net"> wrote:
> >> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> >>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> >>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> >>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> >> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>
> > Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
> > 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>
> Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
> limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
Yo, Nate the Disappointed:
> On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> > $southslope.net"> wrote:
> >> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> >>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> >>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> >>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> >> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>
> > Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
> > 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>
> Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
> limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
First of all, these electrically assisted bikes aren't for speed-freak
roadies. When we say "cyclist" over here, we usually don't mean a
roadie but a utility bicyclist or a commuter on a comfort bike or a
tourer. Electrically assisted bikes are seen as for moms cycling with
kids, shoppers, geriatrics, and so on. So my kit, chosen for maximum
torque, and to sail up the hills without a break in its stride, is an
outlier.
There's a move afoot here among the legislators that may result in
more powerful motors being legalised for road use. Many more powerful
motors are freely available for off road use. But the desirable bigger
motors for on-road use are all either lightweight stuff heftier riders
could burn out rather quickly, or optimised for torque on the hills
rather than for speed on the flat. I were looking for speed, I'd fit
two motors, front and rear, very likely the Bafang BPM 500W 48V Speed
spec wound for higher refs than the Climber I like, and then overvolt
them to 60 or even 72V. Tune out, Dan; the batteries would be too
heavy to make a pleasant commuter, but it would make a scorcher of a
highway bicycle. Hills, what hills?
Andre Jute
Nate Nagel
May 30, 2012, 9:25:31 PM5/30/12
to
On 05/30/2012 09:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> On May 31, 12:42 am, Nate Nagel<njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>> On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>>
>>> On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
>>>>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
>>>>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
>>>>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>>
>>>> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>>
>>> Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
>>> 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>>
>> Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
>> limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
>
> Yo, Nate the Disappointed:
>
> First of all, these electrically assisted bikes aren't for speed-freak
> roadies. When we say "cyclist" over here, we usually don't mean a
> roadie but a utility bicyclist or a commuter on a comfort bike or a
> tourer. Electrically assisted bikes are seen as for moms cycling with
> kids, shoppers, geriatrics, and so on. So my kit, chosen for maximum
> torque, and to sail up the hills without a break in its stride, is an
> outlier.
We don't have that demographic (moms, shoppers, geriatrics, etc.) on
> On May 31, 12:42 am, Nate Nagel<njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>> On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>>
>>> On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
>>>>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
>>>>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
>>>>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>>
>>>> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>>
>>> Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
>>> 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>>
>> Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
>> limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
>
> Yo, Nate the Disappointed:
>
> First of all, these electrically assisted bikes aren't for speed-freak
> roadies. When we say "cyclist" over here, we usually don't mean a
> roadie but a utility bicyclist or a commuter on a comfort bike or a
> tourer. Electrically assisted bikes are seen as for moms cycling with
> kids, shoppers, geriatrics, and so on. So my kit, chosen for maximum
> torque, and to sail up the hills without a break in its stride, is an
> outlier.
bicycles over here. And things are a little more spread out, so you
tend to want to keep your speed up just to get anywhere. I just checked
my bike computer (because coincidentally, I happened to remember to
reset it before I went for a quick ride after work) and I averaged about
14 MPH over a little over 10 miles, with a max speed of a tick over 30
MPH. I wasn't ambling, but I wasn't racing anyone, either. (and to be
fair, while my *bicycle* is practical, I do kinda like speed. Speed is
fun.)
No, I'm not big into watching the computer, logging miles or such like,
honestly, I usually keep the thing set on "cadence" because I still tend
to not keep my leg speed up and then I hurt later. Then when I look
down and see the display saying "62" or something like that then I know
it's time to drop a gear or two.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 9:45:45 PM5/30/12
to
On 5/30/2012 8:25 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> We don't have that demographic (moms, shoppers, geriatrics, etc.) on
> bicycles over here. And things are a little more spread out, so you
> tend to want to keep your speed up just to get anywhere. I just checked
> my bike computer (because coincidentally, I happened to remember to
> reset it before I went for a quick ride after work) and I averaged about
> 14 MPH over a little over 10 miles, with a max speed of a tick over 30
> MPH. I wasn't ambling, but I wasn't racing anyone, either. (and to be
> fair, while my *bicycle* is practical, I do kinda like speed. Speed is
> fun.) [...]
> We don't have that demographic (moms, shoppers, geriatrics, etc.) on
> bicycles over here. And things are a little more spread out, so you
> tend to want to keep your speed up just to get anywhere. I just checked
> my bike computer (because coincidentally, I happened to remember to
> reset it before I went for a quick ride after work) and I averaged about
> 14 MPH over a little over 10 miles, with a max speed of a tick over 30
> MPH. I wasn't ambling, but I wasn't racing anyone, either. (and to be
> fair, while my *bicycle* is practical, I do kinda like speed. Speed is
My experience is that the same effort around town and on farm-to-market
roads results in average speeds being about 40% higher on the latter.
Bicycles do not accelerate quickly.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 9:47:51 PM5/30/12
to
On 5/30/2012 8:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> [...] I were looking for speed, I'd fit
on 599cc of infernal (sic) combustion for 98 horsepower at the rear wheel.
> [...] I were looking for speed, I'd fit
> two motors, front and rear, very likely the Bafang BPM 500W 48V Speed
> spec wound for higher refs than the Climber I like, and then overvolt
> them to 60 or even 72V. Tune out, Dan; the batteries would be too
> heavy to make a pleasant commuter, but it would make a scorcher of a
> highway bicycle. Hills, what hills?
When I want real speed on two wheels, I forget about the pedals and rely
> spec wound for higher refs than the Climber I like, and then overvolt
> them to 60 or even 72V. Tune out, Dan; the batteries would be too
> heavy to make a pleasant commuter, but it would make a scorcher of a
> highway bicycle. Hills, what hills?
on 599cc of infernal (sic) combustion for 98 horsepower at the rear wheel.
James
May 30, 2012, 10:22:51 PM5/30/12
to
On 31/05/12 11:47, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/30/2012 8:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>> [...] I were looking for speed, I'd fit
>> two motors, front and rear, very likely the Bafang BPM 500W 48V Speed
>> spec wound for higher refs than the Climber I like, and then overvolt
>> them to 60 or even 72V. Tune out, Dan; the batteries would be too
>> heavy to make a pleasant commuter, but it would make a scorcher of a
>> highway bicycle. Hills, what hills?
>
> When I want real speed on two wheels, I forget about the pedals and rely
> on 599cc of infernal (sic) combustion for 98 horsepower at the rear wheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMqdUcqeKa8
> On 5/30/2012 8:08 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>> [...] I were looking for speed, I'd fit
>> two motors, front and rear, very likely the Bafang BPM 500W 48V Speed
>> spec wound for higher refs than the Climber I like, and then overvolt
>> them to 60 or even 72V. Tune out, Dan; the batteries would be too
>> heavy to make a pleasant commuter, but it would make a scorcher of a
>> highway bicycle. Hills, what hills?
>
> When I want real speed on two wheels, I forget about the pedals and rely
> on 599cc of infernal (sic) combustion for 98 horsepower at the rear wheel.
--
JS.
thirty-six
May 30, 2012, 10:23:57 PM5/30/12
to
On May 31, 12:42 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
get up to speed from all the junctions of a city.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 30, 2012, 11:06:30 PM5/30/12
to
Note how the F4i walks away at anything under 150 mph.
Lou Holtman
May 31, 2012, 2:16:02 AM5/31/12
to
Op donderdag 31 mei 2012 01:42:51 UTC+2 schreef Nate Nagel het volgende:
You may go faster, but the assistance stops at 25 kph. Above 25 kph you have to do it all by yourself. 25 kph is more that enough for the people this kind of bike was meant for. The increase accident rate here in the Netherlands among elderly show that even 25 kph is to fast. They can't handle this speed.
Lou
Lou
datakoll
May 31, 2012, 11:44:33 AM5/31/12
to
to continue spinning off from cycling, today's central question question is:
where do I get a motorcycle goes 193 mph in the rain ?
where do I get a motorcycle goes 193 mph in the rain ?
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 31, 2012, 8:24:05 PM5/31/12
to
On 5/31/2012 10:44 AM, datakoll wrote:
> to continue spinning off from cycling, today's central question question is:
>
> where do I get a motorcycle goes 193 mph in the rain ?
2012 Kawasaki ZX-14R (ZZR1400 in Europe) with the 300 kph speed limiter
> to continue spinning off from cycling, today's central question question is:
>
> where do I get a motorcycle goes 193 mph in the rain ?
defeated.
datakoll
May 31, 2012, 10:55:08 PM5/31/12
to
the video posted herein makes a visual point comparing huge trucks with the small Velo.
Florida, where suburban streets are available with a heads up, legalized IC motorized bicycles requiring no insurance or registration-as of 4 years ago.
and off course the incroyalbe dummies I wathced ride past were all going what ?
FLAT OUT. witless. When laws are formulated for these vehicles, witless morons are demoninator, as always.
a motorcyclist was caught going 193 in the rain, New York State. He was visiting a hospitalized friend. OK ! The Kawasaki website is grim. I'll put new rings on the Bultaco.
Florida, where suburban streets are available with a heads up, legalized IC motorized bicycles requiring no insurance or registration-as of 4 years ago.
and off course the incroyalbe dummies I wathced ride past were all going what ?
FLAT OUT. witless. When laws are formulated for these vehicles, witless morons are demoninator, as always.
a motorcyclist was caught going 193 in the rain, New York State. He was visiting a hospitalized friend. OK ! The Kawasaki website is grim. I'll put new rings on the Bultaco.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 1, 2012, 12:32:21 AM6/1/12
to
Message has been deleted
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 1, 2012, 1:34:08 AM6/1/12
to
On 5/31/2012 11:52 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
> "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> On which circuits?
> Since they only get barely over that speed in the dry, I'd have
> thought that the lower cornering speed and reduced traction would be
> unlikely to result in a top speed of over 200mph in the wet, except
> maybe somewhere with a very long straight. And most of those have
> been slowed down with chicanes or other alterations these days.
At Mugello and Catalunya, top speeds in the dry have exceeded 215 mph,
and that was with the older 800cc rules.
> "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> Since they only get barely over that speed in the dry, I'd have
> thought that the lower cornering speed and reduced traction would be
> unlikely to result in a top speed of over 200mph in the wet, except
> maybe somewhere with a very long straight. And most of those have
> been slowed down with chicanes or other alterations these days.
At Mugello and Catalunya, top speeds in the dry have exceeded 215 mph,
and that was with the older 800cc rules.
Andre Jute
Jun 1, 2012, 1:37:28 AM6/1/12
to
On Jun 1, 5:52 am, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> considered Thu, 31 May 2012 23:32:21 -0500 the perfect time to write:
>
> "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> considered Thu, 31 May 2012 23:32:21 -0500 the perfect time to write:
>
> On which circuits?
> Since they only get barely over that speed in the dry, I'd have
> thought that the lower cornering speed and reduced traction would be
> unlikely to result in a top speed of over 200mph in the wet, except
> maybe somewhere with a very long straight. And most of those have
> been slowed down with chicanes or other alterations these days.
Not "most of those", all of those. It is a requirement of tracks being
> Since they only get barely over that speed in the dry, I'd have
> thought that the lower cornering speed and reduced traction would be
> unlikely to result in a top speed of over 200mph in the wet, except
> maybe somewhere with a very long straight. And most of those have
> been slowed down with chicanes or other alterations these days.
approved to hold FIA-licensed events (which all MotoGP events are)
that no straight be longer than 2km. Those that were have long since
been broken up with chicanes. -- Andre Jute
thirty-six
Jun 1, 2012, 7:34:19 AM6/1/12
to
On May 31, 7:16 am, Lou Holtman <lou.holt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Op donderdag 31 mei 2012 01:42:51 UTC+2 schreef Nate Nagel het volgende:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> > > $southslope.net"> wrote:
> > >> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> > >>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> > >>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> > >>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> > >> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>
> > > Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
> > > 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>
> > Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
> > limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
> > unassisted bike can fairly easily attain on a flat road? Makes no
> > sense, but I guess not everything does.
>
> > nate
>
> > --
> > replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
> >http://members.cox.net/njnagel
>
> You may go faster, but the assistance stops at 25 kph. Above 25 kph you have to do it all by yourself.
It's better to always choose routes with either the wind at one's back
> Op donderdag 31 mei 2012 01:42:51 UTC+2 schreef Nate Nagel het volgende:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 05/30/2012 07:26 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On May 30, 5:27 am, "Tom $herman (-_-)"<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> > > $southslope.net"> wrote:
> > >> On 5/29/2012 5:02 PM, Andre Jute wrote:> [...]BTW, it is a legal requirement to
> > >>> have a controller that limits top speed to 25mph in Europe. My setup
> > >>> cuts out at exactly 25kph, which is a bit disappointing as it
> > >>> accelerates right up to 25mph and thus clearly has some oomph left.
>
> > >> Mph or kph - assume one is a typo?
>
> > > Yes, well spotted, Tom. The speed limit for pedelecs in Europe is
> > > 25kph, not 25mph. Thanks. -- AJ
>
> > Wow, that's disappointing... so an electrically assisted bike is
> > limited to a speed slower than that which a reasonably fit rider on an
> > unassisted bike can fairly easily attain on a flat road? Makes no
> > sense, but I guess not everything does.
>
> > nate
>
> > --
> > replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
> >http://members.cox.net/njnagel
>
> You may go faster, but the assistance stops at 25 kph. Above 25 kph you have to do it all by yourself.
or downhill. Failing this, grab a car.
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Andre Jute
Jun 1, 2012, 10:30:20 PM6/1/12
to
On Jun 1, 5:00 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> considered Thu, 31 May 2012 22:37:28
> It's a bit subjective where you draw the line between "reasonably
> long", "long", and "very long". By "very long" I was thinking in
> terms of the old Mulsanne straight, which was broken up by chicanes in
> 1990, or the Buonfornello straight at the Targa Florio, which was
> closed as an international racing circuit after 1973, and reduced to
> rallying after 1978.
>
> 2km can still get a high top speed if the entry speed onto the
> straight is high enough, and there is enough traction (and power) to
> accelerate hard.
> But that would clearly be less likely in the rain.
The length of a straight the regulators consider too long can only
come down. They simply don't have all that many elements to play with:
engine power, car weight, aerodynamic aids, tyres. Track configuration
is therefore a fifth of their available arsenal for slowing racers to
sane speeds. They're not likely to give it away. The reason VW built a
miles-long oval test track is that they know they will never again be
able to use racetracks for outright top speed testing of the very
fastest cars.
I follow MotoGP a bit (1), and I haven't heard of competitors reaching
215mph anywhere in recent years, never mind in the wet. If Tom insists
that it is so, he should provide an independent reference.
Andre Jute
(1) What I'd really like to follow is the Superbikes, either World or
British -- very exciting racing the last time I had facilities for
watching it. Our satellite systems are being rejigged here, so I have
hopes. But, of course, the programmers will screw up the opportunity.
They have a pisspoor track record. ITV4 won the rights to the TT, and
immediately decided to follow the BBC's bad example by broadcasting
summaries in arrears for fear a little old lady will have a heart
attack when Guy Martin falls off his bike. I hope we'll see more
racing than footage of the presenter, one Craig Doyle. I know the
NorthWest 200 is a smaller race and venue and thus easier to work at,
but the races a few years ago were the best produced motorbike racing
coverage I ever saw, and it improved from that very high level year on
year. Sadly, the Beeb's coverage of the TT, while professional enough,
never reached their own high standard at the NW200. Probably different
crews...
> Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> considered Thu, 31 May 2012 22:37:28
> long", "long", and "very long". By "very long" I was thinking in
> terms of the old Mulsanne straight, which was broken up by chicanes in
> 1990, or the Buonfornello straight at the Targa Florio, which was
> closed as an international racing circuit after 1973, and reduced to
> rallying after 1978.
>
> 2km can still get a high top speed if the entry speed onto the
> straight is high enough, and there is enough traction (and power) to
> accelerate hard.
> But that would clearly be less likely in the rain.
The length of a straight the regulators consider too long can only
come down. They simply don't have all that many elements to play with:
engine power, car weight, aerodynamic aids, tyres. Track configuration
is therefore a fifth of their available arsenal for slowing racers to
sane speeds. They're not likely to give it away. The reason VW built a
miles-long oval test track is that they know they will never again be
able to use racetracks for outright top speed testing of the very
fastest cars.
I follow MotoGP a bit (1), and I haven't heard of competitors reaching
215mph anywhere in recent years, never mind in the wet. If Tom insists
that it is so, he should provide an independent reference.
Andre Jute
(1) What I'd really like to follow is the Superbikes, either World or
British -- very exciting racing the last time I had facilities for
watching it. Our satellite systems are being rejigged here, so I have
hopes. But, of course, the programmers will screw up the opportunity.
They have a pisspoor track record. ITV4 won the rights to the TT, and
immediately decided to follow the BBC's bad example by broadcasting
summaries in arrears for fear a little old lady will have a heart
attack when Guy Martin falls off his bike. I hope we'll see more
racing than footage of the presenter, one Craig Doyle. I know the
NorthWest 200 is a smaller race and venue and thus easier to work at,
but the races a few years ago were the best produced motorbike racing
coverage I ever saw, and it improved from that very high level year on
year. Sadly, the Beeb's coverage of the TT, while professional enough,
never reached their own high standard at the NW200. Probably different
crews...
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 1:06:32 AM6/2/12
to
I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS SItE, never found it but now !!!! eyeyyehahaha
http://www.bonnevilleracing.com/land-speed-records.asp
racing supports itself in part thru the ruse of entertainment. What would be more entertaining than watching motorcycles dribble down a 3KM straight ? Thru a TV camera.
ahhhh What fun. Incroyable
http://www.bonnevilleracing.com/land-speed-records.asp
racing supports itself in part thru the ruse of entertainment. What would be more entertaining than watching motorcycles dribble down a 3KM straight ? Thru a TV camera.
ahhhh What fun. Incroyable
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 1:26:08 AM6/2/12
to
yeah, always thought reading thr
team Bonne appears to leave to the holder for horn blowing
lucky shot...192
http://www.bonnevilleracing.com/land-speed-records.asp
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 2:00:25 PM6/2/12
to
aha ! I went to WikP for hyperlink refernces...
http://scta-bni.org/Bonneville/Records/BNI_records.htm
http://scta-bni.org/Bonneville/Records/BNI_records.htm
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 11:16:58 PM6/2/12
to
On Saturday, June 2, 2012 12:00:25 PM UTC-6, datakoll wrote:
> aha ! I went to WikP for hyperlink refernces...
>
>
> http://scta-bni.org/Bonneville/Records/BNI_records.htm
50cc
> aha ! I went to WikP for hyperlink refernces...
>
>
> http://scta-bni.org/Bonneville/Records/BNI_records.htm
S-BF
H. Muller NSU 08/56 121.700
S-F
Buddfad Streamliner Aprillia 10/07 131.545
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 11:29:14 PM6/2/12
to
kevlar
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=bonneviile+50cc+streamliner+records&oq=bonneviile+50cc+streamliner+records&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...4248.24217.1.26685.37.34.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0.v93Or_64mVg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16a76c5f7e072d5b&biw=1152&bih=635
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=bonneviile+50cc+streamliner+records&oq=bonneviile+50cc+streamliner+records&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...4248.24217.1.26685.37.34.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0.v93Or_64mVg&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16a76c5f7e072d5b&biw=1152&bih=635
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