small hands

[Joe Riel]

My wife has small hands. She has adjusted the brakes so that the pads
don't grab until there is about 1/2 inch of brake lever travel
remaining. I find that ridiculous; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
to lift the rear wheel off the ground on the flats. I can easily bottom
the levers with one finger, and my hands are not particularly strong,
quite the opposite. I've tried to get her to adjust them to something
reasonable, but with no success. Anyone have any suggestions? These
are DuraAce brifters on standard drop bars.

--
Joe Riel

[Jeff Liebermann]

"Womens's Hands and Brake Levers"
<http://cycleandstyle.com/2010/10/womens-hands-and-brake-levers/>

--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[John B.]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:17:16 -0700, Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> wrote:

They make shims to reduce the travel of brifters. Said to be a
solution for small hand people. I believe that at least one of the
Shimano sets comes with these shims.

As for getting a wife to something, simply because you say so....
well, good luck to you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 23:40:11 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:17:16 -0700, Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>My wife has small hands. She has adjusted the brakes so that the pads
>>don't grab until there is about 1/2 inch of brake lever travel
>>remaining. I find that ridiculous; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
>>to lift the rear wheel off the ground on the flats. I can easily bottom
>>the levers with one finger, and my hands are not particularly strong,
>>quite the opposite. I've tried to get her to adjust them to something
>>reasonable, but with no success. Anyone have any suggestions? These
>>are DuraAce brifters on standard drop bars.
>
>"Womens's Hands and Brake Levers"
><http://cycleandstyle.com/2010/10/womens-hands-and-brake-levers/>

I wonder if someone makes "child size" brake levers, which would be
for smaller hands. I couldn't find much with Google, but perhaps
someone with more experience could offer a source.

Perhaps something like this:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/230488521409>
I can't tell if it will fit her handlebar diameter, work on drop bars,
or even if it will offer an improvement, but for $10, it might be
worth trying.

I once had a problem on one my bicycles that might be relevant. The
brakes were both "spongy" or "springy". There was too much lever
travel after the brake pads hit the rims. Given enough force, I could
make the levers hit the handlebar. Usually, that's either flimsy
calipers or cantilevers, adjustments, or pad contact angle, but not
this time. After replacing almost everything, I noticed that there
were several slight wrinkles in the plastic jacket covering the brake
cables outer housing. The housings also looked a bit too long. So, I
replaced all the outer housings and the problem went away. It was
acting like a spring. You might want to look closely at how the
brakes are functioning, and check for similar sloppiness. It won't
solve the problem, but might make the brakes more usable.

[Joy Beeson]

Two engineers and a Dremel Moto Tool mounted junior brake levers on my
bike.

After that I could brake without causing severe damage to my hands.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://www.debeeson.net/joy/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

[thirty-six]

Usually, the weaker and smaller hand is attached to a lighter body so
less effort is required.

With standard blocks I run my brakes typically with 3-4mm overall
clearance at the caliper (Campag' monoplanar). This works well on
the rims I commonly use. It might not be so good in the wet on the
softer alloys I have.
My hands are not particularly large, but I suppose I compensate by
getting my wrists out when I feel the need to scrub speed fast. A
narrower bar will help in order to get the second joint of the fingers
around the lever. The thumbs should be almost pointing together, but
still hooked around the bar but the back of the hands are cocked in,
probably by 20 degrees. It's natural for me as it gives a strong and
stable position and with a little more rotation, puts me in my
sprinting postition.

[Frank Krygowski]

I've re-bent my wife's plain brake levers to give her an easier reach
to the brakes. It worked really well for her, but I doubt that's
possible with brifters.

Shims of one sort or another sound promising to me, fitted into the
opening that appears at the top-front when the lever is squeezed.
That's a solution I used long ago with a different set of levers.
Since there's essentially no stress on such a shim, it can be made of
any convenient material and held in place with suitable glue.

Of course, these solutions do reduce the available lever motion.
Unless you're using classic cantilevers, the mechanical advantage
can't be adjusted, so the brake shoe movement will also reduce . You
may have to keep a closer eye on rim trueness, to prevent dragging
brakes.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joe Riel]

Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Jun 13, 12:17 am, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>> My wife has small hands.  She has adjusted the brakes so that the pads
>> don't grab until there is about 1/2 inch of brake lever travel
>> remaining.  I find that ridiculous; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
>> to lift the rear wheel off the ground on the flats.  I can easily bottom
>> the levers with one finger, and my hands are not particularly strong,
>> quite the opposite.  I've tried to get her to adjust them to something
>> reasonable, but with no success.  Anyone have any suggestions?  These
>> are DuraAce brifters on standard drop bars.
>
> I've re-bent my wife's plain brake levers to give her an easier reach
> to the brakes. It worked really well for her, but I doubt that's
> possible with brifters.
>
> Shims of one sort or another sound promising to me, fitted into the
> opening that appears at the top-front when the lever is squeezed.
> That's a solution I used long ago with a different set of levers.
> Since there's essentially no stress on such a shim, it can be made of
> any convenient material and held in place with suitable glue.

Shimming seems the best approach, though even that might be a hard sell.

--
Joe Riel

[retrog...@gmail.com]

If it were me, I would keep out of it and let her solve her own problems. It appears that she has already rejected your help.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 14, 6:37 pm, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:

BTW, I've also installed "interrupter" brake levers on my utility bike
and my wife's touring bike, the levers that fit the straight
horizontal part of the drop bar. I really like that option on my
bike; they work really well. But my wife is so used to her road
levers, she forgets she even has the interrupter levers.

Still, that option may help in your case.

- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

So, kind of the opposite of what *she* wants. (She must really love
you ;-)

> Still, that option may help in your case.
>

It does seem like good suggestion. The bottoming out levers is not
good.

[Lou Holtman]

Op 15-6-2013 5:07, Frank Krygowski schreef:

Bad advice for long steep descents with a lot of hairpins.

Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Op 15-6-2013 2:56, retrog...@gmail.com schreef:

> If it were me, I would keep out of it and let her solve her own problems. It appears that she has already rejected your help.
>

My idea. Show her the alternatives and let her figure it out.

Lou

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:ibpjr89ce3t184po5...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 23:40:11 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:17:16 -0700, Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>>>My wife has small hands. She has adjusted the brakes so that the pads
>>>don't grab until there is about 1/2 inch of brake lever travel
>>>remaining. I find that ridiculous; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
>>>to lift the rear wheel off the ground on the flats. I can easily bottom
>>>the levers with one finger, and my hands are not particularly strong,
>>>quite the opposite. I've tried to get her to adjust them to something
>>>reasonable, but with no success. Anyone have any suggestions? These
>>>are DuraAce brifters on standard drop bars.
>>
>>"Womens's Hands and Brake Levers"
>><http://cycleandstyle.com/2010/10/womens-hands-and-brake-levers/>
>
> I wonder if someone makes "child size" brake levers, which would be
> for smaller hands. I couldn't find much with Google, but perhaps
> someone with more experience could offer a source.

"dogleg" brake levers might be a possibility.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 23:40:11 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 21:17:16 -0700, Joe Riel <jo...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>My wife has small hands. She has adjusted the brakes so that the pads
>>don't grab until there is about 1/2 inch of brake lever travel
>>remaining. I find that ridiculous; I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able
>>to lift the rear wheel off the ground on the flats. I can easily bottom
>>the levers with one finger, and my hands are not particularly strong,
>>quite the opposite. I've tried to get her to adjust them to something
>>reasonable, but with no success. Anyone have any suggestions? These
>>are DuraAce brifters on standard drop bars.

Dura Ace Brifters create their own problem. By having the shifter
under the lever, the shifter will hit the handlebar first. If the
shifter were moved to a different location, I guess(tm) the levers
will have an additional 1/4" to 1/2" of travel.
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/21686893@N05/4377222124/
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/sirrobinofcoxly/2503532305/sizes/o/in/photostream/>
If they conformed to the shape of the handlebar, my guess(tm) is they
could add maybe another 1/4" of travel. The mounting base looks
awfully high, probably to clear the shifter, which makes the Brifters
look like a bad fit for small hands. Maybe just a different set of
brake levers and shifts?

>"Womens's Hands and Brake Levers"
><http://cycleandstyle.com/2010/10/womens-hands-and-brake-levers/>

For some odd reason, this problem bugs me. I can easily trade cable
pull distance for lever travel distance. The problem is that if the
lever travel distance were (for example) cut in half, then the hand
force required to stop might be doubled. It should be possible to
produce a variable force system, where the initial required lever
force is fairly high, but which is reduced as the lever approaches the
handlebar. Something like a compound bow, where the initial pull
requires substantial force, but once fully extended, requires much
less force. I'm thinking in terms of replacing the approximately
8-10mm (???) pivot pin, with an adjustable and off-center bushing, and
a much smaller diameter pivot pin. I'll play with the kinematics on
the computah and see if anything interesting appears. (Translation: I
smell a new product).

These brake levers have adjustable leverage and are probably
sufficient to solve the problem. However, they don't have the
adjustable force feature that I think would be useful:

SRAM:
<https://www.google.com/patents/US6443027>
See Fig 5 and 5a at:
<https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/US6443027B1/US06443027-20020903-D00002.png>

Avid:
<https://www.google.com/patents/US5448927>
Note the screw (64) to adjust the leverage.
<https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US5448927-1.png>

Shimano:
<https://www.google.com/patents/US6053068>
also with adjustable leverage.

Yoshigai Kikai Kinzoku Co., Ltd.
<https://www.google.com/patents/EP0593842A1>
Same leverage adjustment.

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 15, 2:42 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> For some odd reason, this problem bugs me.  I can easily trade cable
> pull distance for lever travel distance.  The problem is that if the
> lever travel distance were (for example) cut in half, then the hand
> force required to stop might be doubled.  It should be possible to
> produce a variable force system, where the initial required lever
> force is fairly high, but which is reduced as the lever approaches the
> handlebar.  Something like a compound bow, where the initial pull
> requires substantial force, but once fully extended, requires much
> less force.  I'm thinking in terms of replacing the approximately
> 8-10mm (???) pivot pin, with an adjustable and off-center bushing, and
> a much smaller diameter pivot pin.  I'll play with the kinematics on
> the computah and see if anything interesting appears.

Like most things in bicycling, this has been done before. One scheme
is to use a linkage mechanism to vary mechanical advantage through the
lever's motion. The example that's been discussed most here, in the
past, is the Campy Delta brake, with it's parallelogram linkage.

The problems seem to be that the effect is a bit unpredictable, due to
the flex in the system and the wear on the brake pads. A rider gets
used to a certain mechanical advantage at a certain lever position,
but worn pads or more slippery rims will cause different mechanical
advantage, making braking less predictable. It's kind of similar to
having Vise Grips adjusted to strongly grip a 1" diameter bar, then
using them to grip a bar that's 1/16" different in diameter.

Another mechanism that's been designed is one that changes mechanical
advantage as a step function, rather than a continuous function. I
remember such a thing being designed and described in the second
edition of _Bicycling Science_ by David G. Wilson. Low mechanical
advantage moved the brake shoes a long way until the rim was
contacted; then the resistance force on the shoes caused the brake
mechanism to switch to a higher mechanical advantage. The author
(with whom I've corresponded) seemed quite proud of the design, but no
manufacturers were willing to produce it. I wonder if the mechanism
might be less than suitably reliable - for example, not reliably
"switching gears" when wet, or something similar.

Anyway, before designing something like this, it's usually a good idea
to research prior work. Check out Wilson's book. Bicycling Science,
2nd edition, p. 209 and fig. 8.10. (Discussion of that design seems
to be absent in the 3rd edition.)

- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

On Jun 16, 2:05 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> considered Sat, 15 Jun 2013

> A step change could be really nasty in slippery riding conditions.

Yes, I'd worry about it. The intent of the design was for the low
mechanical advantage motion to stop the instant the brake blocks first
touched the rim. If it occurred a fraction of a second earlier or
later, it could be very nasty.

- Frank Krygowski

[Duane]

Depends on how she rides. If she uses the hoods like many people that
have brifters then interrupters won't help much. And if she gets in the
drops on descents etc. then they won't help much there either. Better
to make the brifters work with shims or other suggestions in this thread.

[Duane]

Yep. If she uses brifters maybe she does that because of their utility.