Tubus Cosmo Rack = Expensive Crap for Posers
Coolmaine
itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
time it was crippled forever.
On the principle of buying good gear once rather than cheap gear
repeatedly, I ordered what was said to be the best rack, the Tubus
Cosmo. This is a stainless steel rack. Mine cost well over a hundred
euro landed from the British bike component discounters, Wiggle. The
stainless steel is a dull gray, not polished. The rack gets it
lightweight spec from being undersized. It is meanly narrow and
shortarsed too. It looks like a toy on my balloon-tired bike.
The worst thing about dealing with Tubus is that, even after I asked
their service department if their rack would fit, and was assured it
would, it still wouldn't fit. You have to buy an extra fitting kit for
another ten or twelve Euro. Not that the original fitting kit is
complete either. In fact, between the original fitting kit and the
extended fitting kit, there still were not enough nuts and bolts to
fit the rack, so I reused some that were in my old rack. Also, there
was an absence of the necessary nuts -- Tubus apparently assumes every
frame is tapped at all points. Also totally absent were spring
washers.
It's just as well that after a year the Tubus rack started creaking,
or I would not have discovered all the loose bolts on it.
I'd put up with this sort of crap, and go buy my own spring washers,
if the rack were actually useful, but it isn't. It is admirably stiff,
but the stiffness is achieved by triangulation that makes it very
awkard to impossible to use for carrying luggage. For instance, the
lower rail on each side angles in under the top rail, so that I can't
hang a common Basil pannier basket without mangling the hooks.
I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
practical use. The makers charge a huge amount of money for it and
don't even give you all the necessary fitting parts. It would probably
be a good rack if it were bigger, in which case the clumsy angling of
the lower rails might not matter, and if it came with enough fitting
components and spring washers to keep it on the bike. As it is sold, I
am decidedly unimpressed.
AMuzi
I would have thought Tubus Cargo for your bike:
http://www.vlerickfietsen.be/bagagetransport/fotos/cargo_big.jpg
Wald #215 is also nice:
http://waldsports.com/index.cfm/racks.html
among many others
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Frank Krygowski
> ... there still were not enough nuts and bolts to
> fit the rack, so I reused some that were in my old rack. Also, there
> was an absence of the necessary nuts -- Tubus apparently assumes every
> frame is tapped at all points. Also totally absent were spring
> washers.
>
> It's just as well that after a year the Tubus rack started creaking,
> or I would not have discovered all the loose bolts on it.
>
> I'd put up with this sort of crap, and go buy my own spring washers,
> if the rack were actually useful, but it isn't.
I sympathize. That's a ton of money for a rack.
This is beside the point (and won't fix your main problem), but I've
long since given up on spring washers for bike attachments. They just
don't do as well against vibration as anaerobic thread locking
compounds. Loctite or equivalent, and be sure to use the strength
that can be undone without heat. That's usually blue, at least in the
US.
- Frank Krygowski
Coolmaine
The rack that came on my bike was made by SL, who've since been taken
over Humpert, an excellent German component supplier (the superb stem
and the fine Cane Creek copy -- by Cane Creek - headset on my bike are
from them). Utopia then went over to fitting RackIt racks, which are
ali racks made by Tubus.
I think that, if I buy a new rack, I'll make an effort to find a
Madison Summit/Massload stainless rack in stock somewhere. It's less
than half the price and can't be worse than the Tubus.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
Coolmaine
I don't mind about the money, Frank, as long as I get value for it. I
don't keep a car, so it is irrelevant that my bike cost as much as a
pre-loved BMW -- the upkeep is virtually zero, and I'm very likely
alive because I cycle, so any likely and unlikely expenditure on the
bike or accessories for it is a trivial consideration. But I'm a
Calvinist, so I dislike being ripped.
Thanks for the tip on threadlock; I'll get a tube tomorrow. It would
be really nice of Tubus put the threadlock on their threads. Rohloff,
to cite just one instance, puts blue Loctite on the replacement
closure stud for their gearbox that comes with the annual service kit,
which is much appreciated and commented on.
Once a manufacturer gets into this price bracket, his goodies had
better be perfect because his customers are likely to be both
impatient with failure and articulate.
Andre Jute
Visit Andre's books
http://coolmainpress.com/andrejute.html
SMS
<snip>
> I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
> practical use. The makers charge a huge amount of money for it and
> don't even give you all the necessary fitting parts. It would probably
> be a good rack if it were bigger, in which case the clumsy angling of
> the lower rails might not matter, and if it came with enough fitting
> components and spring washers to keep it on the bike. As it is sold, I
> am decidedly unimpressed.
The Cosmo is a very short rack (29cm), not really intended for carrying
luggage, especially if you have big feet since you can't have the
panniers far enough to the rear.
The rack design I really like is the Massload CL-476
<http://web.archive.org/web/20041108130532/http://www.cl-massload.com.tw/products.php?pid=78>
which is very hard to find (gone from the manufacturer web site). In the
U.S. it's sold by (gulp) Landrider
<http://www.landriderbikes.com/accessories_1.asp> for .
Here's an account of someone that bought one:
<http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/696989-LandRider-Rear-Rack-(Massload-CL-476)-Review>.
To me it's rather incredible that there are so many poorly designed
racks on the market and amazing that a company that sells such a junky
bicycle is the only U.S. source for a rack as good as the Massload CL-476.
Personally, I would use thread lock compound on rack bolts.
Coolmaine
> On 6/3/2011 3:13 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
> > practical use. The makers charge a huge amount of money for it and
> > don't even give you all the necessary fitting parts. It would probably
> > be a good rack if it were bigger, in which case the clumsy angling of
> > the lower rails might not matter, and if it came with enough fitting
> > components and spring washers to keep it on the bike. As it is sold, I
> > am decidedly unimpressed.
>
> The Cosmo is a very short rack (29cm), not really intended for carrying
> luggage, especially if you have big feet since you can't have the
> panniers far enough to the rear.
>
> The rack design I really like is the Massload CL-476
> which is very hard to find (gone from the manufacturer web site). In the
> U.S. it's sold by (gulp) Landrider
> <http://www.landriderbikes.com/accessories_1.asp> for .
>
> Here's an account of someone that bought one:
>
> To me it's rather incredible that there are so many poorly designed
> racks on the market and amazing that a company that sells such a junky
> bicycle is the only U.S. source for a rack as good as the Massload CL-476.
>
> Personally, I would use thread lock compound on rack bolts.
Thanks, Steven. I believe the Massload rack you mention is the Madison
Summit stainless rack. I tried to find either for sale in Europe and
failed, which why I bought the Cosmo. Now I've tracked down a supplier
in England in case I decide to replace the Cosmo. I got the notion
about the Massload/Madison from you in the first instance, most
likely. -- Andre Jute
Steve Freides
> Once a manufacturer gets into this price bracket, his goodies had
> better be perfect because his customers are likely to be both
> impatient with failure and articulate.
I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous expectation on your part. Not
every purchase one makes "works out" - sometimes something that's worth
the price to most people isn't worth it to you, and that's just life.
Find a rack that you like or, if money is truly no object, go get
yourself a custom-made model that'll be what you want. Maybe you need
to go to a bike shop next time and pay for installation - they'll have
all the necessary hardware to make it work and they won't whine about
it.
-S-
Dan O
SMS
The chance of finding a bicycle shop that actually sells good rear racks
is extremely slim, but I suppose that some shops would be able to
properly install the rack with lock washers and thread-lock.
SMS
<snip>
> Thanks, Steven. I believe the Massload rack you mention is the Madison
> Summit stainless rack.
No, it's a different one.
Madison Summit:
<http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/madison-summit-alloy-rear-cycle-pannier-rack-IMG15298.jpg>
CL-476:
<http://nordicgroup.us/bicycleluggageracks/rackimages/massloadcl476.jpg>
As far as I can tell the Madison Summit steel rack is no longer
available, but the alloy one is still sold. I'm not positive it's made
by Massload.
Massload apparently makes a lot of racks under contract that they can't
show on their web site. Perhaps the CL-476 is one of them (I have the
web archive of it). What's ironic is that clearly it's not a cheap
low-end rack yet it's being sold in the U.S. by Landrider who makes
cheap, "automatic transmission" bicycles.
Other than being made of aluminum rather than steel, the CL-476 looks to
be superior to the Summit in several ways, including the light mounting.
Steel is preferable of course, for bicycle frames and especially for
racks, but now a boutique item, like the $300 racks from Robert Beckman,
<http://www.robertbeckmandesigns.com/rackframes.html> or the $210 Bruce
Gordon rack <http://www.bgcycles.com/racks.html>. The Thorn Expedition
(didn't Blackburn trademark "Expedition" for racks?!) might be good as
well
<http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-expedition-steel-rear-cycle-pannier-rack-black-powdercoat-prod11694/?src=froogleus¤cy=usd>.
Sold only by SJSCycles in the UK.
David Scheidt
Shop better bike shops.
And lock washers do nothing, so I give Torbus credit for not bowing to
the idiot customers who complain that they dont' get useless junk with
their rack hardware.
--
sig 2
DougC
> The good quality ali rack which came on my Utopia Kranich sacrificed
> itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
> driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
> time it was crippled forever.
>
On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
they should be using 6mm or more.
Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
extra bolt length on the inside.
Lou Holtman
> On 6/3/2011 5:13 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
>> The good quality ali rack which came on my Utopia Kranich sacrificed
>> itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
>> driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
>> time it was crippled forever.
>>
>> .....
>
> On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
> companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
> they should be using 6mm or more.
M3? Look again. Tubus use M5 bolts. Well my racks do.
Lou
AMuzi
Really? I can't readily think of a frame with 3mm rack mounts.
Frame eyes are commonly 5mm, occasionally 6mm (or 1/4").
Unless the installation was creatively buggered, the shear
strength of a 5mm graded bolt is plenty. If it's loose or
arranged to not be in shear then 5mm could be insufficient
but, of all the bonehead things I see on bikes, rack
mounting on frame eyes[1] is amazingly uniform and seldom
any trouble.
[1] Rack top mounts on calipers, saddles, even brake cables
are often hilarious. On the lowers with no frame eyes, all
bets are off; everything from shoelaces to body wiring clips
to duct tape.
Nate Nagel
I think M5 is pretty much standard, but if the hardware is button head,
might *use* a 3mm hex key. they look nice but for ease of service I
prefer to use regular socket head everywhere I can. only button heads
on my bike are on the bottle cages and the unused front rack mounts on
the fork (just closing off the holes to make it look less unfinished)
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
SMS
> On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
> companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
> they should be using 6mm or more.
They use M5 bolts for racks and water bottles, which are 5mm.
> Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
> expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
> would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
> placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
> extra bolt length on the inside.
Usually you can do this on commuter bikes and touring/sport touring
bikes, the nylon-insert lock nuts are about 8mm high, so you need 8mm
extra bolt length for the bolt to go all the way into the nylon, not
just the 5mm of steel. However It's unnecessary if you use some
thread-lock compound.
I've seen thinner lock nuts, but not in metric or stainless.
Coolmaine
> Coolmaine wrote:
> > Once a manufacturer gets into this price bracket, his goodies had
> > better be perfect because his customers are likely to be both
> > impatient with failure and articulate.
>
> I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous expectation on your part.
Really?
>Not
> every purchase one makes "works out"
Oh, if you're me, and you decide you care, it always works out. And if
someone has really pissed me off, I make a fat profit out of it too.
>- sometimes something that's worth
> the price to most people isn't worth it to you, and that's just life.
That's loser's credo. Disabuse yourself of the dumb notion that I'm
anything like you.
> Find a rack that you like or, if money is truly no object, go get
> yourself a custom-made model that'll be what you want.
I want a stainless rack. Do you have any further off the cuff
suggestions?
Or perhaps you're just another insular, thick American who thinks
everyone lives around the back your block. You haven't asked where I
live, or what bicycling condition and supply is like here. You haven't
asked what my experience of getting custom gear made has been. Your
advice is useless and your tone is offensive.
>Maybe you need
> to go to a bike shop next time and pay for installation
If you weren't such an insular quarterwit, or if you had the wits to
look up what I've said in the past about the bike shops within an
hour's drive from here, you wouldn't make these stupid suggestions.
>- they'll have
> all the necessary hardware to make it work and they won't whine about
> it.
Why are you such an idiot, Freitos? The only local bicycle shop is
staffed by an 80 year-old blacksmith. He would get the same supply of
parts from Tubus that I do. I can't ask him to buy three whole boxes
of stainless domed nuts at a cost of over sixty Euro, so he can use
one of each on my bike. But you don't ask before you spout off, do
you? You just assume there's a huge, fully provisioned and lavishly
staffed bicycle emporium at the bottom of my block
Be smart, don't reply and irritate me further.
Coolmaine
See, while my rack isn't heavily used, it isn't mollycoddled either,
and it is used as a sacrificial item to protect an expensive bike. I
clean the bike, a quick wipe, once a year; I'm not a compulsive waxer.
So the rack will sooner rather than later become rusty if it is
cromoly. So I want stainless. And this is where I discovered the only
stainless rack I could buy is the Cosmo. There was only one other
stainless rack even theoretically available, and I couldn't find one
of those for sale.
Coolmaine
Not where I live. High tech here is using a ballpeen hammer to knock a
retaining ridge on a button-head rivet.
Coolmaine
>
> <snip>
>
> > Thanks, Steven. I believe the Massload rack you mention is the Madison
> > Summit stainless rack.
>
> No, it's a different one.
>
> Madison Summit:
>
> CL-476:
> <http://nordicgroup.us/bicycleluggageracks/rackimages/massloadcl476.jpg>
>
> As far as I can tell the Madison Summit steel rack is no longer
> available, but the alloy one is still sold. I'm not positive it's made
> by Massload.
>
> Massload apparently makes a lot of racks under contract that they can't
> show on their web site. Perhaps the CL-476 is one of them (I have the
> web archive of it). What's ironic is that clearly it's not a cheap
> low-end rack yet it's being sold in the U.S. by Landrider who makes
> cheap, "automatic transmission" bicycles.
>
> Other than being made of aluminum rather than steel, the CL-476 looks to
> be superior to the Summit in several ways, including the light mounting.
>
> Steel is preferable of course, for bicycle frames and especially for
> racks, but now a boutique item, like the $300 racks from Robert Beckman,
> <http://www.robertbeckmandesigns.com/rackframes.html> or the $210 Bruce
> Gordon rack <http://www.bgcycles.com/racks.html>. The Thorn Expedition
> (didn't Blackburn trademark "Expedition" for racks?!) might be good as
> well
> Sold only by SJSCycles in the UK.
Of that lot, I'd be inclined to go with SJS. I use the components
recommended by their designer Andy Blance as a checklist: my bike must
have those components or better. Their bike take big tours and are
know to be reliable. I have an account with and am on their discussion
board, mainly on the Rohloff sub-board, because a lot of knowledgeable
guys hang out there.
I'm not so sure that the SJS expedition rack would fit. Thorn bikes
use 26 wheels and the biggest suitable tyres are 50mm Big Apples. I
use 60mm x 622 tyres.
I particularly want the lower pannier rail, and it is very nice to
have a protected mounting for the rear light.
For the time being the Tubus can stay, as I'm very busy with books and
don't have time to futz around, though I wince every time I see its
forward tilt. Perhaps on the day I decide to replace it there will be
a more suitable stainless rack available.
Thanks for your help.
Coolmaine
> SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> :On 6/4/2011 7:56 AM, Steve Freides wrote::> Coolmaine wrote:
>
> :>
> :>> Once a manufacturer gets into this price bracket, his goodies had
> :>> better be perfect because his customers are likely to be both
> :>> impatient with failure and articulate.
> :>
> :> I'm sorry but that's just a ridiculous expectation on your part. Not
> :> every purchase one makes "works out" - sometimes something that's worth
> :> the price to most people isn't worth it to you, and that's just life.
> :> Find a rack that you like or, if money is truly no object, go get
> :> yourself a custom-made model that'll be what you want. Maybe you need
> :> to go to a bike shop next time and pay for installation - they'll have
> :> all the necessary hardware to make it work and they won't whine about
> :> it.
>
> :The chance of finding a bicycle shop that actually sells good rear racks
> :is extremely slim, but I suppose that some shops would be able to
> :properly install the rack with lock washers and thread-lock.
>
> Shop better bike shops.
Which I'm supposed to find exactly where. You're another clown
shooting off at the mouth without doing the slightest research,
Scheidt.
> And lock washers do nothing, so I give Torbus credit for not bowing to
> the idiot customers who complain that they dont' get useless junk with
> their rack hardware.
And you English comprehension is wanting too. I said clearly that
Tubus was short some necessary nuts as well. In any event, I would
expect them to apply the threadlock to a rack advertised as easy to
fit. In this day and age, if you want to charge a 130% premium for
your name, you'd better not make it atrociously difficult for your
customers to use your product.
Andre Jute
Definitely not an "idiot customer".
merely on a newsgroup with several blustering quarterwits
with tunnel vision
Coolmaine
> On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
> companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
> they should be using 6mm or more.
>
> Yea I know there's custom frames with integral racks, but that's
> expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
> would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
> placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
> extra bolt length on the inside.
Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
Just careless.
I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
Coolmaine
Nice work, Frank. I've saved that article, and the photos separately.
I can get good quality stainless work done locally, except that they
don't do tiny tubes... But bending up bar stock and laser-cutting hole
would be a breeze for these guys. -- Andre Jute
Nate Nagel
> Why are you such an idiot, Freitos? The only local bicycle shop is
> staffed by an 80 year-old blacksmith. He would get the same supply of
> parts from Tubus that I do. I can't ask him to buy three whole boxes
> of stainless domed nuts at a cost of over sixty Euro, so he can use
> one of each on my bike. But you don't ask before you spout off, do
> you? You just assume there's a huge, fully provisioned and lavishly
> staffed bicycle emporium at the bottom of my block
For bike hardware I keep a stock of nuts, nylocks and washers (as well
as some long socket head cap screws, which I cut to length as needed
when I need one in a pinch) in 5mm and 6mm sizes... even stainless is
inexpensive from www.mcmaster.com (although depending on your locale
shipping might be a bitch)
DougC
I don't know what the exact size is--other than if they're the same size
as the fender bolts, the rack bolts are too fucking small. And they
should be using bolts 2X as thick.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> [...]
> Be smart, don't reply and irritate me further.
Or...?
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
Lou Holtman
M5 is more then adequate. Racks break almost exclusively along the welds.
Lou
Steve Freides
> On 6/5/2011 3:48 AM, Coolmaine aka The André Jute wrote:
>> [...]
>> Be smart, don't reply and irritate me further.
>
> Or...?
I tremble ...
Or insulate, or something ...
-S-
SMS
In the Bay Area, the Japanese "$1.50" store Daiso, has a lot of socket
head metric hardware in different diameters and lengths.
But for threaded braze-ons on bicycles, thread lock makes the most
sense. Those rack bolts and water bottle bolts do loosen up over time
unless you use thread lock or lock nuts, and of course you can't use
lock nuts on water bottle bolts.
SMS
There's no reason for larger bolts. Not only would larger bolts not
provide any additional strength to the load, they would require larger
struts on the rack and larger braze-ons on the frame.
The exact size is M5, 5mm diameter, so now you do know the exact size.
Theoretically, the fender bolts are too large for the weight they have
to carry, but they use M5 for fenders for several other reasons,
including a larger head diameter for the fender support strut holes, to
minimize the number of different diameter bolts, to allow racks or
fenders to use the same threaded holes by the rear dropouts, and to
simplify manufacturing by not have so many different size taps.
SMS
> I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
> practical use. The makers charge a huge amount of money for it and
> don't even give you all the necessary fitting parts. It would probably
> be a good rack if it were bigger, in which case the clumsy angling of
> the lower rails might not matter, and if it came with enough fitting
> components and spring washers to keep it on the bike. As it is sold, I
> am decidedly unimpressed.
"They" or "someone" should make the "perfect rack":
-Stainless Steel or Cro-Mo Steel
-Three support struts.
-Rear light mount _under_ the rack, not sticking out behind it as on the
Bruce Gordon or Thorn Expedition, or Nitto Big Back Rack.
-Separate mounting rail for panniers so a rack top bag can be easily
installed or removed without removing the panniers first.
-Dogleg strut that keeps the pannier from flopping into the rear wheel.
-Level dogleg strut so panniers can be positioned anywhere on the rack
and still have a level place to hook onto.
-Bumps in the dogleg strut or a wavy dogleg strut so pannier hooks don't
slide back and forth.
-36-42 cm long (sometimes shorter is okay, as long as the panniers can
be positioned all the way to the rear and still have something to hook
onto, straight down, on the bottom, i.e. the Surly Nice Rack is 31 cm).
-Minimum width of 12 cm rail to rail.
-Adustable height mounting.
-Highly adjustable seat stay mounting (all three axises can be adjusted,
width, length, angle).
-Comes with long seat stay struts/brackets.
Of course there is no such rack on the market. Today, I would probably
take the chance with aluminum and get the Massload CL-476. Personally
I've only had one aluminum rear rack ever break and it was a cheap
Bor-Yueh rack from Nashbar. I've seen aluminum racks come apart at the
weld where the two or three struts come together down by the dropout,
due to metal fatigue causes by continuous vibration, but if you look at
the Massload CL-476, they seem to have found a good solution to this
problem, as you can see in the photo at
<http://gregandsue.com/util/bike/LandRider_Rack-1.jpg> where the struts
go into another piece of aluminum with sleeves.
The Rivendell/Nitto "Big Back Rack" looks pretty good, though it misses
a few of the design goals
<http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/big-back-rack-nitto/20-022>
(PeteCresswell)
> to
>minimize the number of different diameter bolts,
Can't recall the make/model, but a few years ago the local
Performance Bicycle shop had an FS that could be totally
disassembled/reassembled using only a 5-mil hex key - cranks,
IRRC, and all.
I guess it went the way of too many good ideas, but it sure
appealed to me.
I get crazy when I see 4 and 5mm hex bolts intermixed when 5
would do it across the board.
--
PeteCresswell
Dan O
<snip>
>
> I want a stainless rack. Do you have any further off the cuff
> suggestions?
>
make one
DougC
I've never had that happen.
Mostly what I remember was the lower bolts repeatedly coming loose until
the threads in the frame hole were stripped, and then that bike had no
more rack since if you got a longer bolt and tried to put a nut on the
backside, the nut would block the chain from being used on the smallest
cog.
The only bike I have now has a rack I made myself. Instead of using the
frame holes for mounting, it has four-bolt clamps that grab the frame
tube. The bolts used are 5/16", which is really only about 8.5mm--but
they are attached with nylon-locking nuts. Despite the lack of
thread-locking compound and many times of carrying 20-30+ lb loads since
1996, none of them have ever come loose even once.
Plus due to the way the bike is made, if I have to grab it from near the
rear then the rack is the only thing to grab and lift it by. Still, the
rack stays mounted solidly.
I doubt I'd pay for any store-bought rack now. They look nicer and weigh
less but are far too flimsy to be useful. They might work if one had to
carry around a lot of packages of styrofoam coffee cups, but they're not
really good for anything much heavier.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On 6/3/2011 3:13 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
>
>> I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
>> practical use. The makers charge a huge amount of money for it and
>> don't even give you all the necessary fitting parts. It would probably
>> be a good rack if it were bigger, in which case the clumsy angling of
>> the lower rails might not matter, and if it came with enough fitting
>> components and spring washers to keep it on the bike. As it is sold, I
>> am decidedly unimpressed.
>
> "They" or "someone" should make the "perfect rack":
The perfect solution is tossing all your stuff behind the seat of your
velomobile.
Nate Nagel
Had the same thing happen on my Cannondale, I Helicoiled the hole which
was expensive (because I bought a whole metric Helicoil set, cause I'm a
tool whore) but it's been fine ever since. Of course I hardly ride it
since I got my Trek 620... Was your bike an aluminum frame as well, by
chance?
Lou Holtman
Bugger off with your velomobile. Stop talking about it and ride the
bloody (green) thing. Geezz.
Using a car to move stuff from A to B is a perfect solution.
Lou
DougC
Or get a delta trike with a big rear basket. Less $$$.
DougC
The last couple were. The last one I owned was around 11 years ago though.
DougC
You would likely need to have it custom-made. At least part of it, anyway.
If you could find a cheaper all-steel rack, much of the hardware could
be salvaged from that which would save a lot of time. Bending and
sticking steel tubing with a torch doesn't take long at all.
SMS
> Mostly what I remember was the lower bolts repeatedly coming loose until
> the threads in the frame hole were stripped, and then that bike had no
> more rack since if you got a longer bolt and tried to put a nut on the
> backside, the nut would block the chain from being used on the smallest
> cog.
It's true that the rack bolts are prone to coming lose and that larger
bolt threads would be less likely to strip after repeated
re-tightenings. The dropout isn't thick enough for many threads, and if
the frame is aluminum then it's even worse. But if you just put a drop
of thread lock on the bolts they won't come loose in the first place.
If you do strip the threads you can remove the wheel and put a low
profile cap head stainless steel bolt (Mcmaster 92095A208) through from
the other side, and use a stainless steel nylon insert lock nut on the
other side. The cap head bolt should not block the chain from going on
the smallest cog. Might be a good idea to do this even if the holes are
not stripped.
> The only bike I have now has a rack I made myself. Instead of using the
> frame holes for mounting, it has four-bolt clamps that grab the frame
> tube. The bolts used are 5/16", which is really only about 8.5mm--but
> they are attached with nylon-locking nuts. Despite the lack of
> thread-locking compound and many times of carrying 20-30+ lb loads since
> 1996, none of them have ever come loose even once.
You can buy racks that grab the frame tube. This one
<http://www.cl-massload.com.tw/index.php?mo=CProductInfo&ac=product1_show&sn=22&num=16&ng=1>
is sold here:
<http://www.dealextreme.com/p/bicycle-metal-rear-cargo-rack-56323>.
Some racks lend themselves to modification for frame mounting, i.e. on
my mountain bike I mounted the REI 736-890 "Novara Safari" Rack
<http://nordicgroup.us/bicycleluggageracks/rackimages/safari.JPG> using
U bolts, as shown here
<http://nordicgroup.us/bicycleluggageracks/rackimages/marinrackmount.jpg>.
Of course most shops could not be bothered to come up with solutions to
bicycles where the manufacturer forgets proper rack mounts.
> I doubt I'd pay for any store-bought rack now. They look nicer and weigh
> less but are far too flimsy to be useful. They might work if one had to
> carry around a lot of packages of styrofoam coffee cups, but they're not
> really good for anything much heavier.
In reality, racks rarely break at the dropout mounting holes, or at all.
Poorly manufactured and improperly designed racks break due to poor
welds. There are numerous reports of Blackburn racks breaking at the
welds down by the dropouts, but this may be because so many Blackburn
racks were sold, and so many were used for heavy loads.
You can buy very strong and very high quality steel rear and front
racks, but they won't be cheap, i.e. the Nitto rack for $190,
<http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/big-back-rack-nitto/20-022>. You
can also buy very strong and very high quality aluminum racks, and some
manufacturers have figured out how to mitigate the weld failure problems
that affected some poorly designed racks.
SMS
That's true. While a 3mm or 4mm bolt, perhaps with a wider head, would
be fine for fenders, why complicate things?
Dan O
> On Jun 4, 5:19 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 3, 3:35 pm, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > > I would have thought Tubus Cargo for your bike:http://www.vlerickfietsen.be/bagagetransport/fotos/cargo_big.jpg
>
> > That's the one I use - extremely satisfactory.
>
> >http://i54.tinypic.com/348slys.jpg
>
> See, while my rack isn't heavily used, it isn't mollycoddled either,
> and it is used as a sacrificial item to protect an expensive bike. I
> clean the bike, a quick wipe, once a year; I'm not a compulsive waxer.
> So the rack will sooner rather than later become rusty if it is
> cromoly.
Isn't the bike frame chrome-moly, too?
<snip>
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
The likely thought process is that powder-coating on a rack is likely to
get worn off, while powder-coating on the frame will not (barring
accidents).
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> Op 5-6-2011 20:43, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° > schreef:
>>
>> velomobile.
If I were building practical upright bicycles, I would consider
rotational-molding the equivalent of a rack, bucket panniers [1], and
wheel skirt in one piece.
> Bugger off with your velomobile. Stop talking about it and ride the
> bloody (green) thing. Geezz.
This brings up one of the biggest advantages of a velomobile - going on
about it annoys the conservative [2] upright cyclist. :)
> Using a car to move stuff from A to B is a perfect solution.
My "ridiculous" pick-up truck is even better at moving things than a
car, e.g. <http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5792232576/>. :)
[1]
<http://lh6.ggpht.com/_PIJC8dsWqdU/S2DbbTos6qI/AAAAAAAACzg/qymleu8CM98/P7040040.JPG>.
[2] Regarding human powered vehicle design, and not necessarily other
areas of life.
SMS
> Had the same thing happen on my Cannondale, I Helicoiled the hole which
> was expensive (because I bought a whole metric Helicoil set, cause I'm a
> tool whore) but it's been fine ever since. Of course I hardly ride it
> since I got my Trek 620... Was your bike an aluminum frame as well, by
> chance?
Love those Helicoils!
I forgot that so many people have aluminum frames. I can definitely
appreciate what Doug C. is saying about bolt diameter and stripped
threads considering aluminum frames. But I wonder how much difference it
would make to use M6 or M8 bolts. If you use standard pitch metric bolts
then the the larger diameter bolts will have a greater pitch and less
total threads than the smaller diameter bolts even though the threads
are stronger.
I think most bikes could accept a cap head metric M5 bolt from inside
the dropouts without interfering with the chain. The head is only 2.75mm
high, <http://www.mcmaster.com/#92095a208/=cmc3dn>. A metric lock nut is
5mm high, which could be too much.
You could also slip an M4 weld nut through the stripped M5 hole (with
very slight enlarging since the barrel diameter is 5.3mm) and the rack
strut over the barrel, then secure with an M4 bolt,
<http://www.mcmaster.com/#weld-nuts/=cmc8m5>.
Andre Jute
> On 06/05/2011 12:17 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
>
> > On Jun 5, 10:08 am, Tosspot <Frank.Le...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >>http://www.bicyclinglife.com/howto/heavydutyracks.htm:-)
>
> > Nice work, Frank. I've saved that article, and the photos separately.
> > I can get good quality stainless work done locally, except that they
> > don't do tiny tubes... But bending up bar stock and laser-cutting hole
> > would be a breeze for these guys. -- Andre Jute
>
> used to ally tubing racks, neatly welded, anodized and all, you forget
> the basics, it just has to be able to carry a load. My only thought
> would be how the panniers fit.
Yeah. I just didn't think of having a rack made of flat bar stock,
bolted together, which would solve my problem of not having a bicycle
fabricator in reach because I could use the standard kitchen/bullbar
fabricators down the road. Guess I've just been mixing with these
roadies, weight weenies and engineers with their counter-productive
mass fetish for too long.
If you mean the attachment of the panniers to the rack, if you're
doing the work anyway, or having it done, you just have your own
longish hooked clips bent up to suit the shape of the bar stock, and
for tensioning use either a hook on a shock cord at the bottom or buy
an Ortlieb or Carradice or Altura bottom hook. Since I'll be making my
own leather panniers anyway, to match my large leather saddlebag,
custom hooks don't cause a problem, they just get bolted to the
stiffener inside the pannier (ali sheet or simple stiff plastic sheet,
very light). In fact, the way I use my panniers, even the shopping
basket pannier, they stay on the bike permanently, and there's no
reason not to attach them permanently. I have some briefcase shaped
panniers which are simply attached with tiewraps and left on the bike,
because I never got around to fitting the Ortlieb hardware I ordered.
http://coolmainpress.com/miscimage/Kranichblackbriefcase.jpg I find
that perfectly convenient as I rarely carry loose papers, more likely
books or bottles of wine or sometimes other groceries.
Of course, if I had a rack from which it were more convenient to
remove the panniers than on the !@£$%^& Tubus Cosmo, I might do it
more often...
Andre Jute
The good-sense guy
Andre Jute
> On 06/05/2011 04:48 AM, Coolmaine wrote:
>
> > Why are you such an idiot, Freitos? The only local bicycle shop is
> > staffed by an 80 year-old blacksmith. He would get the same supply of
> > parts from Tubus that I do. I can't ask him to buy three whole boxes
> > of stainless domed nuts at a cost of over sixty Euro, so he can use
> > one of each on my bike. But you don't ask before you spout off, do
> > you? You just assume there's a huge, fully provisioned and lavishly
> > staffed bicycle emporium at the bottom of my block
>
> For bike hardware I keep a stock of nuts, nylocks and washers (as well
> as some long socket head cap screws, which I cut to length as needed
> when I need one in a pinch) in 5mm and 6mm sizes... even stainless is
> shipping might be a bitch)
>
> nate
>
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel
I use RS, which is fast if expensive. But they sell whole boxes of
stuff, which can soon add up to a couple of hundred bucks to get a few
pennies' or dollars' worth of fasteners. One of the local hardware
stores has a very small selection of stainless socket cap screws
though 4/5/6mm goes a long way on a bike. -- AJ
Andre Jute
I've saved the Nitto/Riv page. The nickel plate sounds like a good
idea. Thanks, Steven. -- AJ
Andre Jute
Tosspot sent a URL to photographs of a guy who did. Looks interesting.
Andre Jute
The perfect solution to looking a right jerkoff on any road anywhere
in the world: a "velomobile", furthermore painted in a silly
exhibitionist's fluorescent pastel color. Yech.
Andre Jute
> > See, while my rack isn't heavily used, it isn't mollycoddled either,
> > and it is used as a sacrificial item to protect an expensive bike. I
> > clean the bike, a quick wipe, once a year; I'm not a compulsive waxer.
> > So the rack will sooner rather than later become rusty if it is
> > cromoly.
>
> Isn't the bike frame chrome-moly, too?
Sure. For aesthetics I wanted a brazed, lugged, steel bike. I think it
also rides better than those thick and very stiff ali pipes on my
other bikes. But the rack is exposed, while the bike frame is in
reality very difficult to get at to nick the paint. Anyway, for
whatever reason, in practice the paint on my rack wears, and the paint
on the bike lasts and lasts. -- AJ
john B.
wrote:
To be picky the exact size is M5-.8, which is the metric coarse
thread. There is also a fine thread that is M5-.5, that won't fit.
The thin rounded head screws are commonly refereed to as "button
head", not as "cap head" as another poster called them.
If you are in the store pointing your finger it is perfectly all right
to say "I'll take 5 of them things, there" but if you aren't it is
better to know the common industry term for the dinguses that you
want.
James
> On Jun 5, 12:31 pm, Tosspot <Frank.Le...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06/05/2011 12:17 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 5, 10:08 am, Tosspot <Frank.Le...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> http://www.bicyclinglife.com/howto/heavydutyracks.htm:-)
>>> Nice work, Frank. I've saved that article, and the photos separately.
>>> I can get good quality stainless work done locally, except that they
>>> don't do tiny tubes... But bending up bar stock and laser-cutting hole
>>> would be a breeze for these guys. -- Andre Jute
>> I was quite impressed at how simple it was to fabricate. You get so
>> used to ally tubing racks, neatly welded, anodized and all, you forget
>> the basics, it just has to be able to carry a load. My only thought
>> would be how the panniers fit.
>
> Yeah. I just didn't think of having a rack made of flat bar stock,
> bolted together, which would solve my problem of not having a bicycle
> fabricator in reach because I could use the standard kitchen/bullbar
> fabricators down the road. Guess I've just been mixing with these
> roadies, weight weenies and engineers with their counter-productive
> mass fetish for too long.
As a school boy wanting to take my bicycle touring with camping gear, I
couldn't afford fancy equipment, and made my own racks from solid steel
round bar, brazed together, as part of metal work classes. I think I've
still got the front rack at home. It never broke, despite rough
treatment and dirt roads with panniers.
The bike had an aluminium rear rack. It think it was a Blackburn rack.
It broke carrying firewood back to camp, but not bad enough to end the
trip. I got it repaired after returning home.
With the bike fully loaded, I could barely lift it off the ground.
Thank goodness for very low gears ;-)
--
JS.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On Jun 5, 7:43�pm, T�m Sherm�n� �_�<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
Point of technical correction - the body on my Trisled Rotovelo [1] is
*not* painted. Rather, pigment is added to the HDPE resin prior to
rotational molding. This provides a shell that is much less susceptible
to cosmetic damage than painted fiber-reinforced epoxy shells. The
shell is also semi-translucent, so an internal light can be added for
glow-in-the-dark effects. :)
[1]
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5792235188/sizes/l/in/photostream/>.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> I've saved the Nitto/Riv page. The nickel plate sounds like a good
> idea. Thanks, Steven. -- AJ
Nickel plating needs to be near-perfect - otherwise ugly rust spots will
appear at the "pinholes" in the plating.
(I once had a nickel-plated bike [1] that suffered from this).
[1] Photo taken by the person I sold it to:
<http://www.doctorvision.com/wishbone/wb_profile.jpg>.
AMuzi
Standard head height allen bolt is DIN 912 and the
head-too-shallow-for-good-wrench-engagement bolts are ULS.
Cylindrical shape shallow heads are DIN 7984.
Standard height nuts are DIN 934, Nylock are DIN 985.
Go forth and shop; eschew click to buy wrong items.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Frank Krygowski
>
> You would likely need to have it custom-made. At least part of it, anyway.
>
> If you could find a cheaper all-steel rack, much of the hardware could
> be salvaged from that which would save a lot of time. Bending and
> sticking steel tubing with a torch doesn't take long at all.
Alex Wetmore does a lot of that.
Some of his racks can be seen by searching his blog site. For
example, browse around http://tinyurl.com/3th4ffr
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> To be picky the exact size is M5-.8, which is the metric coarse
> thread. There is also a fine thread that is M5-.5, that won't fit.
>
> The thin rounded head screws are commonly refereed to as "button
> head", not as "cap head" as another poster called them.
I gave up on button head M5 screws after stripping a couple of the hex
wrench sockets.
- Frank Krygowski
Tºm Shermªn °_°
>
> You actually taken that tart out onto the road yet? Cos I'm expecting a
> stream of crashed from blinded drivers...
Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
<http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg>. :)
Snortley
<cool...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>The worst thing about dealing with Tubus is that, even after I asked
>their service department if their rack would fit, and was assured it
>would, it still wouldn't fit.
Tubus makes a wide range of racks; consider the Carry model - titanium
and dropped rails:
http://www.xxcycle.com/carry-26-28-titanium,,en.php
Looks sweet to me, if expensive. Too bad about the load stops, but you
could probably just cut them off. My bikes already come with a load
stop; it's called a "seat post."
As for fit, yes, you have to wonder what planet their designers come
from; they seem to have in mind bikes of a sort that exist nowhere on
earth. I had to go to some trouble to get the Tubus Fly to fit on my
road bike. I ended up making my own fittings:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/39306354@N02/sets/72157623065473000/with/4212575548/
N8N
I had some but when I was confronted w/ the same issue as discussed
earlier in the thread (stripped rack mount hole in the DS dropout of
my Cannondale) even a button head from the inside was tall enough that
I didn't feel comfortable using the smallest cog - but it did allow me
to continue riding the bike until I could "fix it right" I just
couldn't hammer down hills quite as fast.
nate
Zarniwoop
> On Jun 4, 9:00 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>
> > On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
> > companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
> > they should be using 6mm or more.
>
> > expensive and not necessary for all bikes. All that would be needed
> > would be to double the lower-end bolt diameters, and make sure they're
> > placed properly to have enough room for a nylon locking nut and 3-4mm of
> > extra bolt length on the inside.
>
> Tubus used proper-sized bolts, Doug. They aren't actually incompetent.
> Just careless.
>
> I like the idea of nyloc nuts much better than threadlock, which will
> probably get on my hands. I don't mind buying longer bolts if
> necessary. Bolts are easily available where I live in stainless in a
> variety of lengths and finishes, no problemo, and I can also get nyloc
> nuts in a selection of sizes, or just buy a whole box of each size
> from RS, my electronics pusher; they're cheap enough. Thanks, man.
>
> Andre Jute
> Visit Jute on Amps at
> http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/
> "wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio
> constructor"
> John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
> "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
> wisdom"
> Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
extra strength
an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
stainless steel.
Zarniwoop
designed
for running into each other , by now bike are not , the desire is
light weight , not crash survivability .
the Tubus folks use normal fabrication techniques, decent materials.
though I understand they also go for the added savings by making the
steel,and brazing labor in China.
then shipping out of the company warehouses in Germany,for
distribution,
Also pretty much current business practice in the bike industry, at
present
the manufacturing investment went over there , so that's where it
gets made.
then there is the Banking charges for several Cambio, currency
exchanges
Yuan to Euro , then Euro to what ever country distributes the stuff
wholesale, to dealers.
in the US thats the Orlieb distributor in Seattle, more diesel , then
retail margin.
that's all reflected in the final price.. sorry..
On Jun 3, 3:13 pm, Coolmaine <coolma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The good quality ali rack which came on my Utopia Kranich sacrificed
> itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
> driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
> time it was crippled forever.
>
> On the principle of buying good gear once rather than cheap gear
> repeatedly, I ordered what was said to be the best rack, the Tubus
> Cosmo. This is a stainless steel rack. Mine cost well over a hundred
> euro landed from the British bike component discounters, Wiggle. The
> stainless steel is a dull gray, not polished. The rack gets it
> lightweight spec from being undersized. It is meanly narrow and
> shortarsed too. It looks like a toy on my balloon-tired bike.
>
> The worst thing about dealing with Tubus is that, even after I asked
> their service department if their rack would fit, and was assured it
> would, it still wouldn't fit. You have to buy an extra fitting kit for
> another ten or twelve Euro. Not that the original fitting kit is
> complete either. In fact, between the original fitting kit and the
> extended fitting kit, there still were not enough nuts and bolts to
> fit the rack, so I reused some that were in my old rack. Also, there
> was an absence of the necessary nuts -- Tubus apparently assumes every
> frame is tapped at all points. Also totally absent were spring
> washers.
>
> It's just as well that after a year the Tubus rack started creaking,
> or I would not have discovered all the loose bolts on it.
>
> I'd put up with this sort of crap, and go buy my own spring washers,
> if the rack were actually useful, but it isn't. It is admirably stiff,
> but the stiffness is achieved by triangulation that makes it very
> awkard to impossible to use for carrying luggage. For instance, the
> lower rail on each side angles in under the top rail, so that I can't
> hang a common Basil pannier basket without mangling the hooks.
Michael Press
DougC <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> On 6/4/2011 4:29 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > Op 4-6-2011 22:00, DougC schreef:
> >> On 6/3/2011 5:13 PM, Coolmaine wrote:
> >>> The good quality ali rack which came on my Utopia Kranich sacrificed
> >>> itself to protect my bike when it was twice attacked by a carelessly
> >>> driven Range Rover. Once I managed to straighten it but the second
> >>> time it was crippled forever.
> >>>
> >>> .....
> >>
> >> On a semi-related note, I have never, ever understood why frame
> >> companies use tiny lower bolts for racks. They're using 3mm bolts when
> >> they should be using 6mm or more.
> >
> >
> > M3? Look again. Tubus use M5 bolts. Well my racks do.
> >
> >
> > Lou
>
> I don't know what the exact size is--other than if they're the same size
> as the fender bolts, the rack bolts are too fucking small. And they
> should be using bolts 2X as thick.
Using a bolt to carry that transverse load is a bad design.
Everything afterwards are bandaids. Go back and design it
properly instead of complaining about the bandaid.
--
Michael Press
Jay Beattie
> In article <DbKGp.41390$5f.17...@newsfe19.iad>,
Maybe done before, but it seems that a mounting arrangement where the
end of the rack stay goes on top of and over the eyelet with the M5
bolt as more or less a through bolt would be workable. Probably utter
unnecessary since I've never broken a rack bolt even with months on
the road under a heavy load (loosened plenty, though). M5 seems
adequate although I used M6 on some aluminum drop-outs that I drilled
and tapped just because ho-made aluminum threads are pretty iffy. --
Jay Beattie.
N8N
well, most people want "not rusty" and for whatever reason most socket
head metric cap screws tend to be black oxide plated by default, which
really doesn't offer a whole lot of corrosion protection.
nate
N8N
> In article <DbKGp.41390$5f.17...@newsfe19.iad>,
>
>
>
>
>
Bolt shouldn't carry any load in shear, what should happen is that the
bolt is loaded in tension and the friction between the rack and the
dropout holds the rack in place. similar to a wheel bolt on an
automobile, which you'd *think* would be loaded in shear, but in
practice actually is not.
nate
Helmut Springer
> On the principle of buying good gear once rather than cheap gear
> repeatedly, I ordered what was said to be the best rack, the Tubus
> Cosmo.
You may have specified your requirements before deciding what the
"best" rack for your would be.
> The rack gets it lightweight spec from being undersized.
It serves me and several friends well for month long traveling.
> I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
> practical use.
For those that chose it based on their requirements it does a good
job in every day as well as in long travels. YMMV, obviously, but I
don't understand how one would buy something simply ignoring the
specs and needs.
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei
Helmut Springer
> Andre Jute
Ah, I should have noticed the style.
Please don't hide your name, it escapes my scoring, thanks.
Tºm Shermªn °_°
Due to the conical seats for the lug bolts.
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> Maybe done before, but it seems that a mounting arrangement where the
> end of the rack stay goes on top of and over the eyelet with the M5
> bolt as more or less a through bolt would be workable. Probably utter
> unnecessary since I've never broken a rack bolt even with months on
> the road under a heavy load (loosened plenty, though). M5 seems
> adequate although I used M6 on some aluminum drop-outs that I drilled
> and tapped just because ho-made aluminum threads are pretty iffy.
You Portlander's and kinky. ;)
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> Getting hit by a motor-vehicle is the problem , cars are somewhat
> designed
> for running into each other , by now bike are not , the desire is
I would mention that my velomobile is designed to sustain moderate
impacts without significant damage, except that the subject annoys some
of the regulars. ;)
AMuzi
8.8 grade metric fasteners are commonly offered with a zinc
chromate finish.
Michael Press
<f8ed9f70-2464-4f19...@n10g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
N8N <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Lug nuts work loose, unless the transverse load is put on a cone.
That cone surface on a lug nut remains a bandaid.
--
Michael Press
Andre Jute
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 6/5/2011 6:38 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
>
> > I've saved the Nitto/Riv page. The nickel plate sounds like a good
> > idea. Thanks, Steven. -- AJ
>
> Nickel plating needs to be near-perfect - otherwise ugly rust spots will
> appear at the "pinholes" in the plating.
Forget the plating itself, Tom, that's a simple electrical process.
It's the preparation that needs to be perfect. The polish job must be
perfect and cleanliness isn't next to godliness, it is God. -- Andre
Jute
Andre Jute
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 6/6/2011 12:22 AM, Tosspot wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 06/06/2011 02:39 AM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°> wrote:
> >> On 6/5/2011 6:41 PM, Andre Jute wrote:
> >>> On Jun 5, 7:43 pm, T m Sherm n _ <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> >>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>
> >>>> The perfect solution is tossing all your stuff behind the seat of your
> >>>> velomobile.
>
> >>> The perfect solution to looking a right jerkoff on any road anywhere
> >>> in the world: a "velomobile", furthermore painted in a silly
> >>> exhibitionist's fluorescent pastel color. Yech.
>
> >> Point of technical correction - the body on my Trisled Rotovelo [1] is
> >> *not* painted. Rather, pigment is added to the HDPE resin prior to
> >> rotational molding. This provides a shell that is much less susceptible
> >> to cosmetic damage than painted fiber-reinforced epoxy shells. The
> >> shell is also semi-translucent, so an internal light can be added for
> >> glow-in-the-dark effects. :)
>
> >> [1]
>
> > My Eyes! My EYES!!
>
> > You actually taken that tart out onto the road yet? Cos I'm expecting a
> > stream of crashed from blinded drivers...
>
> Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
> <http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg>. :)
Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
hunting those down.
James
> Lug nuts work loose, unless the transverse load is put on a cone.
> That cone surface on a lug nut remains a bandaid.
Thankfully, one that seems to work.
--
JS.
James
Nate Nagel
Eh, old school "Mag Style" lug nuts with the flat washers, while less
than ideal in several ways, didn't have a significantly higher rate of
failure/loosening than traditional tapered or spherical seat lug
nuts/bolts as far as I know...
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Andre Jute
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2011 15:13:15 -0700 (PDT), Coolmaine
>
>
> >The worst thing about dealing with Tubus is that, even after I asked
> >their service department if their rack would fit, and was assured it
> >would, it still wouldn't fit.
>
> Tubus makes a wide range of racks; consider the Carry model - titanium
> and dropped rails:
>
> http://www.xxcycle.com/carry-26-28-titanium,,en.php
>
> Looks sweet to me, if expensive. Too bad about the load stops, but you
> could probably just cut them off. My bikes already come with a load
> stop; it's called a "seat post."
Cut me a break, Snortley. I'm already out about two hundred American
smackers on a Tubus rack that shakes itself loose and can't be leveled
-- after I specially asked their technical assistance department if
the thing would fit. Imagine how pissed of I'll be if I spend 300
smackers (everything costs more in Euroland and I'm in Ireland where
delivery is likely to be 40USD) for another Tubus rack and discover I
have to make my own fittings... Fuck that for a lark. I'm not cheap,
but I'm not stupid either.
> As for fit, yes, you have to wonder what planet their designers come
> from; they seem to have in mind bikes of a sort that exist nowhere on
> earth. I had to go to some trouble to get the Tubus Fly to fit on my
> road bike. I ended up making my own fittings:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/39306354@N02/sets/72157623065473000/with...
Nice work, Snortley. But I'm not a metalworker's backside, and my time
is sixteen hundred dollars an hour, so it is cheaper for me to make a
custom design that will fit first time it is offered up, and get it
built.
What I'm going to do next is get some bar stock in stainless laser
cut, punched and drilled, and make up a rack developed from the
concept Tosspot referred me to (wish I thought of it first!), a bit
more nicely finished -- I know a gun engraver in London. I don't care
about paring down the last ounce of weight; I'm not a roadie.
Maybe you should go into business selling brackets to fit Tubus
racks...
Thanks for sending the inspirational photos.
Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html
Andre Jute
> On Jun 6, 12:30 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Using a bolt to carry that transverse load is a bad design.
> > Everything afterwards are bandaids. Go back and design it
> > properly instead of complaining about the bandaid.
This has the authentic sound of an academic shouting down from his
ivory tower. Yo, Mikey, the bolt in in tension, the load is carried in
the friction between the rack strut and the frame.
You should come down here and mix with us real people occasionally.
> Maybe done before, but it seems that a mounting arrangement where the
> end of the rack stay goes on top of and over the eyelet with the M5
> bolt as more or less a through bolt would be workable. Probably utter
> unnecessary since I've never broken a rack bolt even with months on
> the road under a heavy load (loosened plenty, though). M5 seems
> adequate although I used M6 on some aluminum drop-outs that I drilled
> and tapped just because ho-made aluminum threads are pretty iffy. --
> Jay Beattie.
Gee, you Portlander's are real trendy. Prostitutes to work on your
bike now. Who do you get to mow the lawn?
Andre Jute
Andre Jute
Sorry, Springer. I can't make out what your quaint English is intended
to convey. Try again: write it in German, the put it through Google
Translator.
john B.
That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
material.
By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.
Andre Jute
> Coolmaine <coolma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On the principle of buying good gear once rather than cheap gear
> > repeatedly, I ordered what was said to be the best rack, the Tubus
> > Cosmo.
>
> You may have specified your requirements before deciding what the
> "best" rack for your would be.
Best rack for my what, feller? My needs are so small, any rack would
do. All I wanted was the best stainless steel rack that fits. That's a
specification already, see? I asked Tubus' technical department and
they told me the Cosmo would fit my bike. It doesn't. I said so in my
original post; you should reread it. As someone else commented
already, we wonder on what planet Tubus's rack designers live.
> > The rack gets it lightweight spec from being undersized.
>
> It serves me and several friends well for month long traveling.
How high do you smell when you return?
> > I cannot recommend the Cosmo. It is a poseur's rack, of little
> > practical use.
>
> For those that chose it based on their requirements it does a good
> job in every day as well as in long travels. YMMV, obviously, but I
> don't understand how one would buy something simply ignoring the
> specs and needs.
How the fuck was I supposed to discover, without first buying the
thing, that the fruitcakes in the Tubus design department on the Cosmo
would angle the dropped rail under the top rail so that you can't put
a common Basil pannier basket on there without mangling the hooks? In
Germany cyclists may be all supermen with X-ray eyes but here in
Ireland (and elsewhere I daresay) we rather prefer to trust designers
to be sensible, a trust which in the Tubus Cosmo case was betrayed.
> --
> MfG/Best regards
> helmut springer panta rhei
What this is about isn't that the Tubus Cosmo doesn't fit, which we
all agree on, and which I have a perfect right to say, but the usual
silly expectation of the Euroboosters, Germans (Andreas can't be far
behind) and other hangers-on that I should be uncritically
enthusiastic about aspirational components. What you fail to grasp,
Springer, is that I used to be in the business of putting dreams in
the heads of big spenders like you (your fridge, your garage and your
wardrobe is full of overpriced crap I made you want), and I don't care
to let anyone else do it me. At chez Jute a Tubus rack, a B&M lamp, a
Schmidt dynamo, a Rohloff gearbox, a whole Utopia bike, all get judged
not by their name but by their utility. The two that don't fall short
of their hype is the Rohloff and the Utopia; the rest are all
overhyped and overpriced. That doesn't mean I won't have them in
preference to either nothing or whatever else is available, it means I
won't turn a blind eye to their faults, as you clearly do, every time,
to every German product.
Andre Jute
Nobody's captive market
john B.
Yo ho's make threads ?
AMuzi
It's a fastener grade, not a size.
http://www.americanfastener.com/technical/grade_markings_steel.asp
penultimate entry in first section chart
Nate Nagel
>>> "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of
>>> wisdom"
>>
>> 5 x.8 mm is a common bolt on bikes, if you worry, or just want
>> extra strength
>> an 8.8 bolt is made from heat treated steel ,
>> but most people want shiny, so bike industry use chromed steel or
>> stainless steel.
>
> That's not really correct, you know. There is no guarantee that just
> because a bolt is a certain size that it is made of any specific
> material.
> By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.
>
> see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf
>
no, 8.8 refers to the strength of the material - roughly equivalent to
Grade 5. The other common property class likely to be found in your
local hardware store is 10.9, roughly equivalent to Grade 8.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#Mechanical_classifications
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASTM_F568M
Andre Jute
That beautiful stainless work on the 'roo catcher will feature in
Liddell Tommi's nightmares! I like the authentic expression of the
Australian motorist's attitude on a sign, carefully designed to slice
some unfortunate in two, that says, "Pedestrian Hazard". -- AJ
David Scheidt
:On Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT), Zarniwoop
:<fiet...@gmail.com> wrote:
8.8 is a specification, which includes both mechanical specifications,
and specifications on composition and heat treating. 8.8 bolts are
steel, and are heat treated. 8.8 bolts are available in a bunch of
sizes.
:see http://www.spaenaur.com/pdf/sectionB/B277.pdf
that's a page of 12.9 bolts. What's that got to do with 8.8 ones?
--
sig 92
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> On Jun 6, 10:12�am, T�m Sherm�n �_�<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
DD A NN N GGGG EEEEEE RRRRR !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G GGG EEEE RRRRR !!
D D AAAAAAAAA N N N G G G E R R !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R
DD A A N NN GGGG EEEEEE R R !!
DD A NN N GGGG EEEEEE RRRRR !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G E R R !!
D D A A N N N G GGG EEEE RRRRR !!
D D AAAAAAAAA N N N G G G E R R !!
D DD A A N N N G G E R R
DD A A N NN GGGG EEEEEE R R !!
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> Andre Jute wrote:
>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>
>>> Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
>>> <http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg>. :)
>>
>> Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
>> hunting those down.
>
> Like
>
> http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/
>
> or more specifically,
>
> http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG
>
> and
>
> http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/medium/495ras1.jpg
>
In the US, only rednecks would be seen in vehicles such as those.
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> On Jun 7, 12:41�am, James<james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Andre Jute wrote:
>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>> Here are some of the prototype batch cruising Melbourne:
>>>> <http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/5139555796_f5f5d2450a.jpg>. :)
>>
>>> Average Australian motorists in their 400bhp V8 utes will have ball
>>> hunting those down.
>>
>> Like
>>
>> http://www.bnsute.com.au/bs-ute/b-and-s-ute/
>>
>> or more specifically,
>>
>> http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/DSC_0080.JPG
>>
>> and
>>
>> http://www.beaututes.com/gallery/data/517/medium/495ras1.jpg
>>
>> --
>> JS.
>
> That beautiful stainless work on the 'roo catcher will feature in
> Liddell Tommi's nightmares! I like the authentic expression of the
> Australian motorist's attitude on a sign, carefully designed to slice
> some unfortunate in two, that says, "Pedestrian Hazard". -- AJ
If only we could all be like Jute, and go around destroying motor
vehicles at traffic lights.
john B.
wrote:
Err... Many mag wheels use lug nuts without a cone. See
http://www.excaliburwheel.com/magnut.html or
http://www.customwheelaccessories.com/MagLugNuts.html
for examples.
While it might be anecdotical I have never had a mag wheel fall off.
Tºm Shermªn °_°
> [...] What you fail to grasp,
> Springer, is that I used to be in the business of putting dreams in
> the heads of big spenders like you (your fridge, your garage and your
Refrigerator: Primarily unadvertised brands (mostly house brands).
Wardrobe: Designer labels - a couple of items that were picked up from
the give-away table (free) and thrift stores (because they were dirt cheap).
Garage/Driveway: Banged up and unwashed Honda Civic urban rat runner,
and scratched, dented, and unwashed Nissan Frontier work truck. Some
'bents from a specialty builder who only had a couple of small
advertisements in low-circulation specialty publications and a
velomobile - the latter something that 99.9% of the population has no
clue to what it is.
SMS
> By the way, 8.8 mm is not a standard metric size.
8.8 is not the size, it's the grade.