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Olympic Time Trial
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Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 1:20:45 AM8/2/12
to
The Olympic road TT has concluded. Finishing times are here
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/olympics/olympic-mens-time-trial-results_232607.
Let's look at the average separation among finishers:
1-5 : 0.85%
1-10 : 0.69
1-20 : 0.47
1-30 : 0.39
The course profile was mostly flat, with a few short climbs. The
winning speed was over 32 mph. As such, aero drag is the primary
loss, which compresses the differences compared to a hill climb.
The reason is that on a hill climb power is proportional to the
velocity, while with aerodrag it is proportional to the cube of the
velocity.
The average seperation between places is on the order of 0.5%.
To move up one place, on average, you need to improve by about that
much.
Translating this to a hill climb, if you hope to move up one place, and
expect to do so by reducing the weight of your bike, you need to reduce
it by approximately 0.5% of the total weight of you and the bike. The
actual value is normally higher because, as mentioned, separations are
generally greater on a hill climb due to the linear relation of power to
velocity.
--
Joe Riel
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/olympics/olympic-mens-time-trial-results_232607.
Let's look at the average separation among finishers:
1-5 : 0.85%
1-10 : 0.69
1-20 : 0.47
1-30 : 0.39
The course profile was mostly flat, with a few short climbs. The
winning speed was over 32 mph. As such, aero drag is the primary
loss, which compresses the differences compared to a hill climb.
The reason is that on a hill climb power is proportional to the
velocity, while with aerodrag it is proportional to the cube of the
velocity.
The average seperation between places is on the order of 0.5%.
To move up one place, on average, you need to improve by about that
much.
Translating this to a hill climb, if you hope to move up one place, and
expect to do so by reducing the weight of your bike, you need to reduce
it by approximately 0.5% of the total weight of you and the bike. The
actual value is normally higher because, as mentioned, separations are
generally greater on a hill climb due to the linear relation of power to
velocity.
--
Joe Riel
datakoll
Aug 2, 2012, 2:16:48 AM8/2/12
to
INTERESTING PAGE...
is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ?
one group sez those results define drug use age.
party time ? as skiing ? the woman's has a on the road pass...
not bad 1ST n 4TH
brit whinnikng is outstanding. we weep. wait'll Wiggins wins 2...
Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 11:09:59 AM8/2/12
to
datakoll <data...@yahoo.com> writes:
> INTERESTING PAGE...
>
>
> is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics_-_Men%27s_road_time_trial
> INTERESTING PAGE...
>
>
> is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ?
I arbitrarily selected the top 20 of those results and computed
an average difference of 0.25%, which is tighter. As mentioned,
a flat time trial compressess the results compared to a hill climb,
the factor should be between 2 and 3.
--
Joe Riel
DirtRoadie
Aug 2, 2012, 11:24:49 AM8/2/12
to
On Aug 1, 11:20 pm, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> The Olympic road TT has concluded. Finishing times are here http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/olympics/olympic-mens-time-tri....
factual statement you have made (excluding you conclusions).
But you start with the erroneous assumption that results from a
single race establish some sort of general rule.
And you "Translat[e] this to a hill climb" by simply waving your
hands.
For example, start over, using the results here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-de-france/prologue/results
Simply following your guidelines roughly gives the *average* value of
a "place" being ~.07%. But note, how many places are "S.T." Note also
that .07% is less than two ounces for a 150 lb rider/15 lb bike.
DR
> The Olympic road TT has concluded. Finishing times are here http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/olympics/olympic-mens-time-tri....
>
> Let's look at the average separation among finishers:
>
> 1-5 : 0.85%
> 1-10 : 0.69
> 1-20 : 0.47
> 1-30 : 0.39
>
> The course profile was mostly flat, with a few short climbs. The
> winning speed was over 32 mph. As such, aero drag is the primary
> loss, which compresses the differences compared to a hill climb.
> The reason is that on a hill climb power is proportional to the
> velocity, while with aerodrag it is proportional to the cube of the
> velocity.
>
> The average seperation between places is on the order of 0.5%.
> To move up one place, on average, you need to improve by about that
> much.
>
> Translating this to a hill climb, if you hope to move up one place, and
> expect to do so by reducing the weight of your bike, you need to reduce
> it by approximately 0.5% of the total weight of you and the bike. The
> actual value is normally higher because, as mentioned, separations are
> generally greater on a hill climb due to the linear relation of power to
> velocity.
>
> --
> Joe Riel
There is nothing specifically wrong with your arithmetic, nor with any
> Let's look at the average separation among finishers:
>
> 1-5 : 0.85%
> 1-10 : 0.69
> 1-20 : 0.47
> 1-30 : 0.39
>
> The course profile was mostly flat, with a few short climbs. The
> winning speed was over 32 mph. As such, aero drag is the primary
> loss, which compresses the differences compared to a hill climb.
> The reason is that on a hill climb power is proportional to the
> velocity, while with aerodrag it is proportional to the cube of the
> velocity.
>
> The average seperation between places is on the order of 0.5%.
> To move up one place, on average, you need to improve by about that
> much.
>
> Translating this to a hill climb, if you hope to move up one place, and
> expect to do so by reducing the weight of your bike, you need to reduce
> it by approximately 0.5% of the total weight of you and the bike. The
> actual value is normally higher because, as mentioned, separations are
> generally greater on a hill climb due to the linear relation of power to
> velocity.
>
> --
> Joe Riel
factual statement you have made (excluding you conclusions).
But you start with the erroneous assumption that results from a
single race establish some sort of general rule.
And you "Translat[e] this to a hill climb" by simply waving your
hands.
For example, start over, using the results here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tour-de-france/prologue/results
Simply following your guidelines roughly gives the *average* value of
a "place" being ~.07%. But note, how many places are "S.T." Note also
that .07% is less than two ounces for a 150 lb rider/15 lb bike.
DR
DirtRoadie
Aug 2, 2012, 11:28:25 AM8/2/12
to
On Aug 2, 9:09 am, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I arbitrarily selected ....
There is hardly any point in doing any sort of numerical analysis if
data is "arbitrarily selected."
DR
> datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> writes:
> > INTERESTING PAGE...
>
> > is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics_-_M...
> > INTERESTING PAGE...
>
> > is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ?
>
>
> I arbitrarily selected ....
There is hardly any point in doing any sort of numerical analysis if
data is "arbitrarily selected."
DR
Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 11:43:46 AM8/2/12
to
time trial. Also, you have to be a bit careful when using the entire
field in a stage race. Some guys have no chance to win and won't
exactly give a maximum effort. If you look at the top 20, guys who are
motivated, the average difference is 0.2%.
I purposely omitted giving the derivation of the factor of 2 to 3
when translating to a hill climb. That is a trivial computation that
comes from noting the relation of power to velocity.
--
Joe Riel
Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 11:46:52 AM8/2/12
to
any cherry picking. Didn't compute the result for any other places.
--
Joe Riel
DirtRoadie
Aug 2, 2012, 12:02:58 PM8/2/12
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On Aug 2, 9:43 am, Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> wrote:
I see, now you are trying to compensate by saying that you are going
to cherry pick the races that YOU think are relevant.
> Also, you have to be a bit careful when using the entire
> field in a stage race.
I see, we are now going to start making subjective assessment about
the data in advance so that we can make sure our data matches the
result we are trying to impose. Nice!
> Some guys have no chance to win and won't
> exactly give a maximum effort.
So you chose the OLYMPICS. Let's see - Jamaican Bobsled team, Eddy
the Eagle. Remember them?
> If you look at the top 20, guys who are
> motivated, the average difference is 0.2%.
OK so take the top 10, top 20, top 50 of the prologue. What the heck,
figure out which guys YOU don't want to include.
> I purposely omitted giving the derivation of the factor of 2 to 3
> when translating to a hill climb. That is a trivial computation that
> comes from noting the relation of power to velocity.
You seem to think that how you process the numbers validates the
underlying data or your underlying assumptions.
Shame on you! Really, really, sloppy!
DR
to cherry pick the races that YOU think are relevant.
> Also, you have to be a bit careful when using the entire
> field in a stage race.
the data in advance so that we can make sure our data matches the
result we are trying to impose. Nice!
> Some guys have no chance to win and won't
> exactly give a maximum effort.
the Eagle. Remember them?
> If you look at the top 20, guys who are
> motivated, the average difference is 0.2%.
figure out which guys YOU don't want to include.
> I purposely omitted giving the derivation of the factor of 2 to 3
> when translating to a hill climb. That is a trivial computation that
> comes from noting the relation of power to velocity.
underlying data or your underlying assumptions.
Shame on you! Really, really, sloppy!
DR
Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 12:17:01 PM8/2/12
to
>> If you look at the top 20, guys who are
>> motivated, the average difference is 0.2%.
>
> OK so take the top 10, top 20, top 50 of the prologue. What the heck,
> figure out which guys YOU don't want to include.
Top 50 gives 0.11
>
>> I purposely omitted giving the derivation of the factor of 2 to 3
>> when translating to a hill climb. That is a trivial computation that
>> comes from noting the relation of power to velocity.
>
> You seem to think that how you process the numbers validates the
> underlying data or your underlying assumptions.
> Shame on you! Really, really, sloppy!
Don't forget, when all is said and done, these averages are
>> I purposely omitted giving the derivation of the factor of 2 to 3
>> when translating to a hill climb. That is a trivial computation that
>> comes from noting the relation of power to velocity.
>
> You seem to think that how you process the numbers validates the
> underlying data or your underlying assumptions.
> Shame on you! Really, really, sloppy!
for moving up *one place*.
--
Joe Riel
DirtRoadie
Aug 2, 2012, 1:01:49 PM8/2/12
to
ritualistically apply the numbers in the manner (formula) you have
arbitrarily chosen. They change when applied even slightly
differently, for example selecting different ranges.
.07% "per place" will get you from 50th to 2nd,
or from that matter from 75th to 2nd.
.04% per place gets you from 75th to top 10.
.05% per place gets you from 50th to top 10.
So you still have a bunch of numbers that are relatively inconsistent
and meaningless.
DR
James
Aug 2, 2012, 6:29:33 PM8/2/12
to
Considering all the combatants at this level likely are using fairly
well refined technology already, it may be difficult to remove another
425 g.
--
JS.
datakoll
Aug 2, 2012, 9:39:34 PM8/2/12
to
wind shift ?
James
Aug 2, 2012, 9:48:36 PM8/2/12
to
> no wiz explaining why 1 und 2 are waaaaaay out ahead ?
>
> wind shift ?
Weather can change during an event for sure. My guess is more likely
>
> wind shift ?
better preparation, training and ability. One would assume all
combatants had similar aerodynamics - though this may not be the case.
--
JS.
Joe Riel
Aug 2, 2012, 10:02:54 PM8/2/12
to
As DR has pointed out, translating the data to a hill climb is a bit of
a stretch. So let's look at the data for an actual hill climb, say, the
time trial up Alp D'Huez in the 2004 TdF:
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage16
Computing average differences gives
10: 0.62%
20: 0.43
30: 0.35
40: 0.29
50: 0.25
60: 0.23
70: 0.21
80: 0.20
90: 0.19
100: 0.18
110: 0.17
120: 0.16
130: 0.16
140: 0.16
150: 0.17
Using the smallest average difference 0.16% with a hypothetical
150 lib rider + 15 lb bike gives 0.264 lb. On average that's how
much weight a rider would have to lose on the bike to move up one
place.
The point of this exercise is to show the scale that is relevant.
A racer worried about grams is using the wrong scale.
Here's an interesting extrapolation. Going the other direction,
this suggests Lance could have added approximately
165*150*0.17/100 = 42lbs to his bike and still finished under
the time limit. Could have ridden a Flying Pigeon.
--
Joe Riel
James
Aug 2, 2012, 10:43:48 PM8/2/12
to
Pointless.
The issue is, it is possible to make real reductions on most things, and
come up with a more useful, real, performance improving, overall deduction.
Consider a bicycle is made up of;
2x rims
2x tyres+tubes
2x hubs
40x spokes+nipples (24 + 16)
1x cassette
1x chain
2x chainrings
2x derailleurs
2x gear/brake levers
2x brake calipers
2x cranks
2x pedals
2x bottle cage
1x BB
1x headset
1x frame
1x forks
1x seat port
1x seat
1x stem
1x bars
30 parts (excluding spokes). Shave an average 10 g off each, and
there's another 300g off the total bicycle weight.
I recently changed my frame (steel to steel), forks, pedals, headset,
stem, bars and seat. Each one contributed about a 100g saving on
average. None are exquisitely expensive - in fact quite average parts,
but carefully chosen based on cost, expected reliability and weight.
My bicycle weight went from about 9.2 kg to 8.4 kg.
Now, my frame is never going to be as light as a carbon 900g uber frame,
so I'm not scratching for every last gram here, but I expect it will
last longer, and reliability is important to me - as is price.
I could spend more and buy a set of Zipp 303 wheels, which would
undoubtedly reduce my bicycle weight further, and my wallet weight too!
;-) But I'm not that hungry.
This is all rather rhetorical, as most racing bicycles these days are
(or could be) within a poofteenth of the 6.8 kg UCI limit anyway!
--
JS.
frkr...@gmail.com
Aug 2, 2012, 11:08:20 PM8/2/12
to
- Frank Krygowski
DirtRoadie
Aug 2, 2012, 11:24:39 PM8/2/12
to
First a reduction of even a gram WILL increase uphill speed, but the
amount is calculable and, yes, is very, very small.
But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
Frank's friend (that's what kills me) drilled out a seatpost bolt!
Apparently the folks in Ohio ARE complete idiots.
For the Pros - their bikes are already at the weight limit. So none of
it matters anyhow as far as the bike is concerned.
And I don't believe Lance's goal at L'Alpe D'Huez was to make merely
make the cutoff.
If you must- Other Hillclimbs to look at for data are Mt Washington
and Mt. Evans (bicyclerace.com). Both are hillclimbs but they are
completely different types of races (Tom Danielson hold the record for
both)
I think looking a calculations based on percentage between placings of
some arbitrarily chosen race is silly.
The depth of the field and quality of the field (either way) skew
those figures dramatically.
Try instead looking at the potential benefit that any one rider can
achieve by, for example, shedding a pound or two and then see what
that means, if you MUST analyze. First that rider will be faster. A
few tenths in a sprint, a few seconds on a climb, might mean nothing,
might mean 10 places and might be the difference between winning a
race and not. Even in a spirited club ride, everyone knows who won the
climb or the sprint. It's not as if you are drinking beer latter with
the other and asking "Hey does anybody know who got to the top first?"
No it's usually enthusiastic friendly trash talk and/or mutual
support.
Frank's perspective is that small things aren't worth worrying about.
No surprise there, Frank use ancient clipped pedals and loose straps
with Rockports.
Now if you had a race team with sponsorship contract dependent on
results, would you hire Frank as your equipment coordinator?
If so I've got a bridge you might be interested in.
DR
James
Aug 2, 2012, 11:38:54 PM8/2/12
to
--
JS.
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 12:03:00 AM8/3/12
to
It's the 21st century
"Drillium" was a tedious 20th century compromise.
We can now make uncompromised light parts out of things like carbon
fiber, kevlar, titanium, scandium and niobium alloys that have
superseded the cast iron, hemp and animal skins that you are so used
to.
DR
James
Aug 3, 2012, 12:29:09 AM8/3/12
to
period of years from when engineers took note of the drillium phenomenon
and invested time, money and resources, to making bicycle parts lighter
using modern design techniques, materials and fabrication processes.
In Frank's universe, Mod 23 pedals are still the benchmark, to which all
other pedals are compared - and fall short I might add.
I mean why would anyone want a saddle made from synthetic materials that
weighs well under 100 grams, when you can buy a perfectly fine Brooks
Team Professional saddle that has a chrome plated steel frame, tubular
steel rivets, is covered with animal hide and weighs just 530 grams!
(Note that Weight Weenies has it at more than that ;-)
It's only enough weight difference to move forward one position in an
Olympic time trial, after all.
--
JS.
frkr...@gmail.com
Aug 3, 2012, 1:22:30 AM8/3/12
to
Yet in the glorious past, the real lightness aficionados (otherwise known as weight weenies) have looked at your list of "10 grams per component" and taken manly power tools in hand. But nowadays? It seems the weight weenies - um, lightness aficionados - just grab their credit cards instead. They're no more manly than their girlfriends going to the mall.
Man up! Take charge! Drill holes in those 40 spoke nipples you listed! File five grams off each bottle cage! Heck, if your chainrings don't remind you of a sieve, you're not even trying.
Always remember: Every gram counts, and nothing is negligible! ;-)
- Frank Krygowski
James
Aug 3, 2012, 2:11:31 AM8/3/12
to
On 03/08/12 15:22, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to the standards and technology of the day.
That's the biggest load of manure you've dropped this week.
> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to the standards and technology of the day.
And, oh yeah - tell that to Brooks! They are still producing this;
<http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/road+%26+mtb/Team+Pro+Titanium/>
430 grams!!!
Now, check out weight weenies on the internet. I assume you know how to
google by now. Even for some relatively inert object like a seat post,
just bath in the glorious variability in weight.
Even the same brand, same length and same material, Kalloy 350mm @ 27.2
dia., year 2005 weighs 300g (advertised) but was only 266g (advertised)
in year 2000!
That means, they actually got heavier with time!
Looking at 27.2 dia posts, 300mm long, they range from 98 g to 294 g.
--
JS.
datakoll
Aug 3, 2012, 2:44:15 AM8/3/12
to
what probabilities for a 2012 1-2 time over 3rd....based on previous TT ?
AMuzi
Aug 3, 2012, 1:14:13 PM8/3/12
to
A new 1972 Record 53t is 130g on my scale. The 10 Speed
Ultra Drive [1] 53t Record ring is only 90g. New ones are
harder and have those sexy little shift pins in too.
[1] Didn't have an Eleven Speed 53t handy and separating
Campagnolo aluminum chainring bolts is more complex than I
think this reply warrants.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
datakoll
Aug 3, 2012, 2:05:16 PM8/3/12
to
what does one 1/4" hole weigh ?
where's the stats guy ?
is this the Flathead ?
where's the stats guy ?
is this the Flathead ?
Frank Krygowski
Aug 3, 2012, 2:19:48 PM8/3/12
to
much wall thickness at the bottom, and it may prevent you from surging
into the lead someday. Every "Nothing is negligible" guy knows that!
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Aug 3, 2012, 2:21:57 PM8/3/12
to
AMuzi wrote:
> On 8/2/2012 10:08 PM, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yep. That's exactly the thinking that led to the fashion for
>> "drillium." Maybe we'll see a drillium comeback start here?
>>
>
> On 8/2/2012 10:08 PM, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yep. That's exactly the thinking that led to the fashion for
>> "drillium." Maybe we'll see a drillium comeback start here?
>>
>
> That 'drill' moment has pretty much passed.
>
> A new 1972 Record 53t is 130g on my scale. The 10 Speed Ultra Drive [1]
> 53t Record ring is only 90g.
Ah, but a mere 8 hours of drilling could reduce that 90 grams to 80
>
> A new 1972 Record 53t is 130g on my scale. The 10 Speed Ultra Drive [1]
> 53t Record ring is only 90g.
grams. And several people here have convinced us that nothing is
negligible!
... haven't they?
--
- Frank Krygowski
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 2:26:03 PM8/3/12
to
On Aug 3, 12:19 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
> James wrote:
Where do you get these stupid ideas of your?
DR
wrote:
> James wrote:
> > On 03/08/12 15:22, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to
> >> the standards and technology of the day.
>
> > That's the biggest load of manure you've dropped this week.
>
> > And, oh yeah - tell that to Brooks! They are still producing this;
>
> > <http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/road+%26+mtb/...>
> >> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to
> >> the standards and technology of the day.
>
> > That's the biggest load of manure you've dropped this week.
>
> > And, oh yeah - tell that to Brooks! They are still producing this;
>
>
> > 430 grams!!!
>
> > Now, check out weight weenies on the internet. I assume you know how to
> > google by now. Even for some relatively inert object like a seat post,
> > just bath in the glorious variability in weight.
>
> > Even the same brand, same length and same material, Kalloy 350mm @ 27.2
> > dia., year 2005 weighs 300g (advertised) but was only 266g (advertised)
> > in year 2000!
>
> > That means, they actually got heavier with time!
>
> That's why you ream the inside. Morse taper reamer. You don't need as
> much wall thickness at the bottom, and it may prevent you from surging
> into the lead someday. Every "Nothing is negligible" guy knows that!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
No, dumbass. That's why you buy carbon.
> > 430 grams!!!
>
> > Now, check out weight weenies on the internet. I assume you know how to
> > google by now. Even for some relatively inert object like a seat post,
> > just bath in the glorious variability in weight.
>
> > Even the same brand, same length and same material, Kalloy 350mm @ 27.2
> > dia., year 2005 weighs 300g (advertised) but was only 266g (advertised)
> > in year 2000!
>
> > That means, they actually got heavier with time!
>
> That's why you ream the inside. Morse taper reamer. You don't need as
> much wall thickness at the bottom, and it may prevent you from surging
> into the lead someday. Every "Nothing is negligible" guy knows that!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Where do you get these stupid ideas of your?
DR
I_am_cycle_pathic
Aug 3, 2012, 2:48:08 PM8/3/12
to
Cheers
thirty-six
Aug 3, 2012, 2:37:44 PM8/3/12
to
On Aug 2, 11:29 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 02/08/12 15:20, Joe Riel wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The Olympic road TT has concluded. Finishing times are here
> >http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/olympics/olympic-mens-time-tri....
> On 02/08/12 15:20, Joe Riel wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The Olympic road TT has concluded. Finishing times are here
Helmut Springer
Aug 3, 2012, 2:55:32 PM8/3/12
to
I_am_cycle_pathic <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> NO! Reaming or drilling parts is not needed (or in many caes wise)
> when bicycles are already at the legal low limit for sanctioned
> road racing.
Of course it is, since shaving weight beyong the limit allows to
> NO! Reaming or drilling parts is not needed (or in many caes wise)
> when bicycles are already at the legal low limit for sanctioned
> road racing.
then distribute the weight needed to meet the limit where it has the
least effect!
Is there already some forum discussing where to put that weight?
Maybe even depending on the course? There has to be!
--
MfG/Best regards
helmut springer panta rhei
Frank Krygowski
Aug 3, 2012, 3:06:18 PM8/3/12
to
DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
>
> But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
cumulative.
But with only the rarest exceptions, it's been only here that I've met
people who claim nothing is negligible - that a few grams difference can
be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a "spirited club ride."
> Frank's friend (that's what kills me) drilled out a seatpost bolt!
> Apparently the folks in Ohio ARE complete idiots.
out in a bar, even if you were too cowardly to tell the bar patrons your
real name.
> I think looking a calculations based on percentage between placings of
> some arbitrarily chosen race is silly.
> The depth of the field and quality of the field (either way) skew
> those figures dramatically.
>
> Try instead looking at the potential benefit that any one rider can
> achieve by, for example, shedding a pound or two and then see what
> that means, if you MUST analyze.
Maybe you belong in rec.bicycles.fashion instead?
> First that rider will be faster. A
> few tenths in a sprint, a few seconds on a climb, might mean nothing,
> might mean 10 places and might be the difference between winning a
> race and not. Even in a spirited club ride, everyone knows who won the
> climb or the sprint. It's not as if you are drinking beer latter with
> the other and asking "Hey does anybody know who got to the top first?"
> No it's usually enthusiastic friendly trash talk and/or mutual
> support.
showed up for a training ride with the fast guys in my club. It was
many, many years ago.
Yes, I was nervous. I did take the rack, fenders and handlebar bag off
my commuting bike, but I was still running 1 1/4" clinchers on Weinmann
A-124 rims (remember those?) and low-end SunTour stuff. There were
about a dozen guys, all looking very fit, all younger than me. Most if
not all were running tubulars, Campy, and real cleated shoes with their
toe clips, etc. I knew only one of them pretty well (he was 18 and the
son of good friends) but barely knew any of the others, who were very
busy comparing and discussing each others' expensive components.
The guy who organized the ride was nice enough to come over to me and
welcome me. But he also said "On these rides, we don't stop for
anything or anyone, so you can find your way back, right?" IOW, you'll
never hang with us, but thanks for showing up.
It wasn't a long ride, just 20 miles or so, out and back on a quiet
rolling highway. I was damned sure to stay with the group right from
the start, but not to push hard enough to blow up. (That was also when
I noticed the Campy in front of me hunting for the gears my SunTour was
hitting nicely.) Anyway, we cranked along nicely, and I was riding
carefully, but eventually I was amazed to see gaps behind me on some of
the rises. I was feeling good, pleased that there were no gaps in front
of me.
Turn around was in a plaza parking lot. Some guys may have expected a
few minutes rest, I don't know. But three other guys I happened to be
near said "Let's go!" and were quickly out of the lot. I jumped with
them, and saw the others take off maybe 75 feet back. I figured they'd
be back up with us soon.
They weren't. The 18-year-old was the ringleader (supposedly, 2nd
fastest in the club at that time) and he kept pushing. We pulled away
from everyone else. Three of us were rotating, but the young guy
wouldn't let anyone else pull; he stayed at the front.
To my surprise, first one then a second guy fell off on small climbs. I
tried again to pull, even riding up alongside him, but the young guy
would have none of it. So I rode his wheel in to the end of the ride.
We two finished well ahead of the next two, and far ahead of the rest of
the group. I was feeling elated that I not only survived, I did really
well.
The young guy was pretty effusive, congratulating me on the ride. (I
was still saying I felt bad that he wouldn't let me take a pull.) The
guy who organized the ride came up to me and congratulated me too.
The rest of the dozen? No enthusiastic friendly trash talk or support.
Not one said anything to me. They were mostly looking kind of sullen,
and still talking quietly among themselves about their choice of
shifters, their rims, their tires.
Nobody seemed interested in my A-124s.
BTW, that 18-year-old was the same guy who (on a different ride) told me
he could, in a sprint, feel the difference in weight from his aluminum
cogs. Maybe that's why I didn't finish ahead of him?
--
- Frank Krygowski
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 3:45:44 PM8/3/12
to
On Aug 3, 1:06 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
> cumulative.
VERY good. Then what makes you think anyone here is saying something
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
> cumulative.
different, aside from your pathological need to put words into their
mouths?
> But with only the rarest exceptions, it's been only here that I've met
> people who claim nothing is negligible - that a few grams difference can
> be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a "spirited club ride."
anyone has said "a few grams difference can
be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a 'spirited club
ride.' " You have a penchant for taking things out of context.
> > Frank's friend (that's what kills me) drilled out a seatpost bolt!
> > Apparently the folks in Ohio ARE complete idiots.
>
> That's an example of the kind of language that would get a guy punched
> out in a bar, even if you were too cowardly to tell the bar patrons your
> real name.
Frank- your "friend," your story, your implication. Sorry, if YOU
think I drew the wrong conclusion.
Deal with it!
If you don't want your friends (All your friends) to be thought of as
idiots, then don't describe them that way.
I expect they would punch you out if they knew you were using them as
bad examples without them knowing it.
> > I think looking a calculations based on percentage between placings of
> > some arbitrarily chosen race is silly.
> > The depth of the field and quality of the field (either way) skew
> > those figures dramatically.
>
> > Try instead looking at the potential benefit that any one rider can
> > achieve by, for example, shedding a pound or two and then see what
> > that means, if you MUST analyze.
>
> You're reluctant to analyze anything in a "tech" discussion group? Hmm.
> Maybe you belong in rec.bicycles.fashion instead?
BTW I WAS discussing - you are just being a troll.
>
> > First that rider will be faster. A
>
> > few tenths in a sprint, a few seconds on a climb, might mean nothing,
> > might mean 10 places and might be the difference between winning a
> > race and not. Even in a spirited club ride, everyone knows who won the
> > climb or the sprint. It's not as if you are drinking beer latter with
> > the other and asking "Hey does anybody know who got to the top first?"
> > No it's usually enthusiastic friendly trash talk and/or mutual
> > support.
>
> OK, I've held off telling this,
TLDR
Thanks but no thanks. Your anecdotes have little to do with "tech"
and are so, "anecdotal."
DR
Duane
Aug 3, 2012, 3:53:35 PM8/3/12
to
I_am_cycle_pathic
Aug 3, 2012, 4:02:29 PM8/3/12
to
Cheers
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 4:03:43 PM8/3/12
to
invent him.
DR
Duane
Aug 3, 2012, 4:12:49 PM8/3/12
to
Maybe Fred is the same "2nd fastest guy in the club" that gets dropped
on a 20 mile ride with light rollers...
It really doesn't help me to plonk this guy. I have to find a way to
filter him out.
Frank Krygowski
Aug 3, 2012, 4:45:27 PM8/3/12
to
narrower A-124s.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=d6b12c29-2670-4edd-8d5d-fa6118ca15e8
--
- Frank Krygowski
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 4:49:17 PM8/3/12
to
On Aug 3, 12:19 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
> James wrote:
Nobody else in this group has ever made any mention of reaming
seatposts.
We all agree it would be foolhardy and you impliedly characterized it
in that fashion when you first brought it up.
You were the first to broach the subject and now you are giving us the
details of the procedure.
So just how many times have you done this?
Are you actually the "drilled out" seatpost guy too?
Do you have other sins to confess?
DR
wrote:
> James wrote:
> > On 03/08/12 15:22, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to
> >> the standards and technology of the day.
>
> > That's the biggest load of manure you've dropped this week.
>
> > And, oh yeah - tell that to Brooks! They are still producing this;
>
> > <http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/road+%26+mtb/...>
> >> Manufacturers have _always_ produced light bike parts, according to
> >> the standards and technology of the day.
>
> > That's the biggest load of manure you've dropped this week.
>
> > And, oh yeah - tell that to Brooks! They are still producing this;
>
>
> > 430 grams!!!
>
> > Now, check out weight weenies on the internet. I assume you know how to
> > google by now. Even for some relatively inert object like a seat post,
> > just bath in the glorious variability in weight.
>
> > Even the same brand, same length and same material, Kalloy 350mm @ 27.2
> > dia., year 2005 weighs 300g (advertised) but was only 266g (advertised)
> > in year 2000!
>
> > That means, they actually got heavier with time!
>
> That's why you ream the inside. Morse taper reamer. You don't need as
> much wall thickness at the bottom, and it may prevent you from surging
> into the lead someday. Every "Nothing is negligible" guy knows that!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
I cannot let this slide-
> > 430 grams!!!
>
> > Now, check out weight weenies on the internet. I assume you know how to
> > google by now. Even for some relatively inert object like a seat post,
> > just bath in the glorious variability in weight.
>
> > Even the same brand, same length and same material, Kalloy 350mm @ 27.2
> > dia., year 2005 weighs 300g (advertised) but was only 266g (advertised)
> > in year 2000!
>
> > That means, they actually got heavier with time!
>
> That's why you ream the inside. Morse taper reamer. You don't need as
> much wall thickness at the bottom, and it may prevent you from surging
> into the lead someday. Every "Nothing is negligible" guy knows that!
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Nobody else in this group has ever made any mention of reaming
seatposts.
We all agree it would be foolhardy and you impliedly characterized it
in that fashion when you first brought it up.
You were the first to broach the subject and now you are giving us the
details of the procedure.
So just how many times have you done this?
Are you actually the "drilled out" seatpost guy too?
Do you have other sins to confess?
DR
James
Aug 3, 2012, 5:07:34 PM8/3/12
to
On Saturday, August 4, 2012 5:06:18 AM UTC+10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> >
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
>
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
>
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
>
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
>
> cumulative.
It appears as though you do not understand.
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> >
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
>
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
>
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
>
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
>
> cumulative.
>
> But with only the rarest exceptions, it's been only here that I've met
>
> people who claim nothing is negligible - that a few grams difference can
>
> be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a "spirited club ride."
>
> You're reluctant to analyze anything in a "tech" discussion group? Hmm.
>
> Maybe you belong in rec.bicycles.fashion instead?
>
> OK, I've held off telling this, but: I still recall the first time I
>
> showed up for a training ride with the fast guys in my club. It was
>
> many, many years ago.
I rode past a guy who looked like Frank the other night. Yep, clipless pedals are certainly faster than Leotards.
--
JS.
James
Aug 3, 2012, 5:13:12 PM8/3/12
to
What a whack job. I'm glad there's a lot of water between us.
--
JS.
DirtRoadie
Aug 3, 2012, 5:19:41 PM8/3/12
to
guy too?"
That WOULD explain why Frank thinks that (referring to that guy as an
idiot) was fighting words.
DR
Jay Beattie
Aug 3, 2012, 7:06:56 PM8/3/12
to
On Aug 3, 12:06 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
I have a very similar story. In 1976, I showed up for my first "shop
ride" at Terry Shaw's old store in San Jose. I was worried about
riding with serious cyclists, but Terry thought I was ready. My bike
was a custom tourer with Super Champ Mod 51s with 700C 32mm tires,
Suntour derailleurs and a mix of old Dura Ace. Everyone else had
custom American or Italian racing bikes with Campagnolo and silks and
Ergals and what have you -- and most everybody but me had shaved legs
and cleats. Some even smelled of embrocation. These guys talked and
acted like they were big time racers.
Well, we took off over a rolling course near the foot of Mt Hamilton,
and when the climbing started, these guys . . . KICKED MY ASS BIG
TIME. I thought I was going to hack a lung. I felt like I was
dragging a boat anchor up the hills, and I didn't have the gears to
keep up on the downhill. At the end of twenty miles, I was too sick to
throw-up.
As it turned out, I was riding with the state junior champ, a mix of
Cat 1/2s -- some future pros, and many of the guys in those pictures
Jobst loved to post showing his rides through the Santa Cruz mountains
in the '70s. Not a dork among them -- except me. Two years later and
on a much lighter bike with suitable geometry and gears, I was in the
hunt and sprinting for the hill tops. It's all about the bike, baby!
-- Jay Beattie.
P.S. -- you need to join better bike clubs.
wrote:
ride" at Terry Shaw's old store in San Jose. I was worried about
riding with serious cyclists, but Terry thought I was ready. My bike
was a custom tourer with Super Champ Mod 51s with 700C 32mm tires,
Suntour derailleurs and a mix of old Dura Ace. Everyone else had
custom American or Italian racing bikes with Campagnolo and silks and
Ergals and what have you -- and most everybody but me had shaved legs
and cleats. Some even smelled of embrocation. These guys talked and
acted like they were big time racers.
Well, we took off over a rolling course near the foot of Mt Hamilton,
and when the climbing started, these guys . . . KICKED MY ASS BIG
TIME. I thought I was going to hack a lung. I felt like I was
dragging a boat anchor up the hills, and I didn't have the gears to
keep up on the downhill. At the end of twenty miles, I was too sick to
throw-up.
As it turned out, I was riding with the state junior champ, a mix of
Cat 1/2s -- some future pros, and many of the guys in those pictures
Jobst loved to post showing his rides through the Santa Cruz mountains
in the '70s. Not a dork among them -- except me. Two years later and
on a much lighter bike with suitable geometry and gears, I was in the
hunt and sprinting for the hill tops. It's all about the bike, baby!
-- Jay Beattie.
P.S. -- you need to join better bike clubs.
Duane Hebert
Aug 3, 2012, 8:48:19 PM8/3/12
to
not uncommon.
I used to try to keep up with my friends that were racing. Mostly
around the Boston area.
At first I thought that I could do it. Then I realized that I couldn't
- not without a lot of work and
a good bike. Eventually I did.
But I don't think it's ALL about the bike. I think it's first about the
audacity to try to ride with
some of these guys. Then the bike. But yeah, the bike makes a difference.
Frank Krygowski
Aug 3, 2012, 10:02:09 PM8/3/12
to
Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> ...
after.
We had very close friends, a wonderful couple who moved here and became
popular members of this bike club. Unfortunately, after about ten
years, his job caused him to move to a different state. Their great
experience in our club caused them to immediately join the club where
they moved, especially because the cycling season was longer there.
Their disappointment was immediate. With that club, showing up for a
ride got you a map of the ride - something I've never seen done here -
and a hearty wave. Essentially, rides that started with 20 people
immediately splintered into many three or four person rides, and most
people were never seen again that day. Sociability was not part of the
plan. Fast people were off the front, slow people were off the back,
and our friends were left to ride alone, following the map. The only
benefit was that someone had taken the trouble to choose roads they
thought were good for riding.
They did eventually make a few friends from that club, but seldom attend
an actual club ride. They still say they miss the friendliness and
helpfulness they found when they first moved here.
So if coughing up a lung is what you're after, you pick one type of
club. But there are other types, and some of us prefer those.
--
- Frank Krygowski
>
> ...
> As it turned out, I was riding with the state junior champ, a mix of
> Cat 1/2s -- some future pros, and many of the guys in those pictures
> Jobst loved to post showing his rides through the Santa Cruz mountains
> in the '70s. Not a dork among them -- except me. Two years later and
> on a much lighter bike with suitable geometry and gears, I was in the
> hunt and sprinting for the hill tops. It's all about the bike, baby!
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> P.S. -- you need to join better bike clubs.
As with choice of bikes, choice of pedals, etc., it depends what you're
> Cat 1/2s -- some future pros, and many of the guys in those pictures
> Jobst loved to post showing his rides through the Santa Cruz mountains
> in the '70s. Not a dork among them -- except me. Two years later and
> on a much lighter bike with suitable geometry and gears, I was in the
> hunt and sprinting for the hill tops. It's all about the bike, baby!
>
> -- Jay Beattie.
>
> P.S. -- you need to join better bike clubs.
after.
We had very close friends, a wonderful couple who moved here and became
popular members of this bike club. Unfortunately, after about ten
years, his job caused him to move to a different state. Their great
experience in our club caused them to immediately join the club where
they moved, especially because the cycling season was longer there.
Their disappointment was immediate. With that club, showing up for a
ride got you a map of the ride - something I've never seen done here -
and a hearty wave. Essentially, rides that started with 20 people
immediately splintered into many three or four person rides, and most
people were never seen again that day. Sociability was not part of the
plan. Fast people were off the front, slow people were off the back,
and our friends were left to ride alone, following the map. The only
benefit was that someone had taken the trouble to choose roads they
thought were good for riding.
They did eventually make a few friends from that club, but seldom attend
an actual club ride. They still say they miss the friendliness and
helpfulness they found when they first moved here.
So if coughing up a lung is what you're after, you pick one type of
club. But there are other types, and some of us prefer those.
--
- Frank Krygowski
datakoll
Aug 3, 2012, 11:48:50 PM8/3/12
to
my Kalloy broke. maybe there's a typo. maybe Kalloy lied.
here's a list and check current issue formoverview
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/skyblog/newsblog/A-History-of-Missions-to-Mars-164800156.html
here's a list and check current issue formoverview
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/community/skyblog/newsblog/A-History-of-Missions-to-Mars-164800156.html
Dan O
Aug 4, 2012, 2:26:59 AM8/4/12
to
Dan O
Aug 4, 2012, 2:38:42 AM8/4/12
to
On Aug 3, 12:06 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
spade a spade in no uncertain terms. He might even gain respect of
one sort or another, possibly some understanding, and in any case will
be thought twice about (unless he's just puffing and bluffing, and
needs to be ready to duck in any case). It's the aggravatingly
smarmy, supercilious dork who's asking for it right in the kisser.
> > I think looking a calculations based on percentage between placings of
> > some arbitrarily chosen race is silly.
> > The depth of the field and quality of the field (either way) skew
> > those figures dramatically.
>
> > Try instead looking at the potential benefit that any one rider can
> > achieve by, for example, shedding a pound or two and then see what
> > that means, if you MUST analyze.
>
> You're reluctant to analyze anything in a "tech" discussion group? Hmm.
> Maybe you belong in rec.bicycles.fashion instead?
>
"Pow!" Right in the kisser.
> > First that rider will be faster. A
>
> > few tenths in a sprint, a few seconds on a climb, might mean nothing,
> > might mean 10 places and might be the difference between winning a
> > race and not. Even in a spirited club ride, everyone knows who won the
> > climb or the sprint. It's not as if you are drinking beer latter with
> > the other and asking "Hey does anybody know who got to the top first?"
> > No it's usually enthusiastic friendly trash talk and/or mutual
> > support.
>
> OK, I've held off telling this, but: I still recall the first time I
> showed up for a training ride with the fast guys in my club. It was
> many, many years ago.
>
(I gotta cut this out... )
> Yes, I was nervous. I did take the rack, fenders and handlebar bag off
> my commuting bike, but I was still running 1 1/4" clinchers on Weinmann
> A-124 rims (remember those?) and low-end SunTour stuff. There were
> about a dozen guys, all looking very fit, all younger than me. Most if
> not all were running tubulars, Campy, and real cleated shoes with their
> toe clips, etc. I knew only one of them pretty well (he was 18 and the
> son of good friends) but barely knew any of the others, who were very
> busy comparing and discussing each others' expensive components.
>
> The guy who organized the ride was nice enough to come over to me and
> welcome me. But he also said "On these rides, we don't stop for
> anything or anyone, so you can find your way back, right?" IOW, you'll
> never hang with us, but thanks for showing up.
>
> It wasn't a long ride, just 20 miles or so...
That's 2/3 of my commute one way; and it takes me about five miles to
get my legs warmed up even with lots of hills. "Training ride"?
Training for what - a trip to the hardware store? The annual beer
run?
> ..., out and back on a quiet
sure sound like hotshots, all right :-)
> To my surprise, first one then a second guy fell off on small climbs. I
> tried again to pull, even riding up alongside him, but the young guy
> would have none of it. So I rode his wheel in to the end of the ride.
> We two finished well ahead of the next two, and far ahead of the rest of
> the group. I was feeling elated that I not only survived, I did really
> well.
>
> The young guy was pretty effusive, congratulating me on the ride. (I
> was still saying I felt bad that he wouldn't let me take a pull.) The
> guy who organized the ride came up to me and congratulated me too.
>
> The rest of the dozen? No enthusiastic friendly trash talk or support.
> Not one said anything to me. They were mostly looking kind of sullen,
> and still talking quietly among themselves about their choice of
> shifters, their rims, their tires.
>
> Nobody seemed interested in my A-124s.
>
> BTW, that 18-year-old was the same guy who (on a different ride) told me
> he could, in a sprint, feel the difference in weight from his aluminum
> cogs. Maybe that's why I didn't finish ahead of him?
>
Why do you think you didn't? I mean, really - if you had your mojo
working and he gave you a wheel all the way, why settle for 2nd?
wrote:
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
> cumulative.
>
> But with only the rarest exceptions, it's been only here that I've met
> people who claim nothing is negligible - that a few grams difference can
> be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a "spirited club ride."
>
> > Frank's friend (that's what kills me) drilled out a seatpost bolt!
> > Apparently the folks in Ohio ARE complete idiots.
>
> That's an example of the kind of language that would get a guy punched
> out in a bar, even if you were too cowardly to tell the bar patrons your
> real name.
>
You know who gets punched out in the bar? Not the guy who calls a
>
> > But when choosing components, if one concludes that 10 grams or 20
> > grams makes no difference, then pretty soon there can be a lb or two
> > in those accumulated instances of insignificant grams.
>
> I've never met anyone who did not understand that mass differences are
> cumulative.
>
> But with only the rarest exceptions, it's been only here that I've met
> people who claim nothing is negligible - that a few grams difference can
> be expected to affect the outcome of a race, or even a "spirited club ride."
>
> > Frank's friend (that's what kills me) drilled out a seatpost bolt!
> > Apparently the folks in Ohio ARE complete idiots.
>
> That's an example of the kind of language that would get a guy punched
> out in a bar, even if you were too cowardly to tell the bar patrons your
> real name.
>
spade a spade in no uncertain terms. He might even gain respect of
one sort or another, possibly some understanding, and in any case will
be thought twice about (unless he's just puffing and bluffing, and
needs to be ready to duck in any case). It's the aggravatingly
smarmy, supercilious dork who's asking for it right in the kisser.
> > I think looking a calculations based on percentage between placings of
> > some arbitrarily chosen race is silly.
> > The depth of the field and quality of the field (either way) skew
> > those figures dramatically.
>
> > Try instead looking at the potential benefit that any one rider can
> > achieve by, for example, shedding a pound or two and then see what
> > that means, if you MUST analyze.
>
> You're reluctant to analyze anything in a "tech" discussion group? Hmm.
> Maybe you belong in rec.bicycles.fashion instead?
>
> > First that rider will be faster. A
>
> > few tenths in a sprint, a few seconds on a climb, might mean nothing,
> > might mean 10 places and might be the difference between winning a
> > race and not. Even in a spirited club ride, everyone knows who won the
> > climb or the sprint. It's not as if you are drinking beer latter with
> > the other and asking "Hey does anybody know who got to the top first?"
> > No it's usually enthusiastic friendly trash talk and/or mutual
> > support.
>
> OK, I've held off telling this, but: I still recall the first time I
> showed up for a training ride with the fast guys in my club. It was
> many, many years ago.
>
> Yes, I was nervous. I did take the rack, fenders and handlebar bag off
> my commuting bike, but I was still running 1 1/4" clinchers on Weinmann
> A-124 rims (remember those?) and low-end SunTour stuff. There were
> about a dozen guys, all looking very fit, all younger than me. Most if
> not all were running tubulars, Campy, and real cleated shoes with their
> toe clips, etc. I knew only one of them pretty well (he was 18 and the
> son of good friends) but barely knew any of the others, who were very
> busy comparing and discussing each others' expensive components.
>
> The guy who organized the ride was nice enough to come over to me and
> welcome me. But he also said "On these rides, we don't stop for
> anything or anyone, so you can find your way back, right?" IOW, you'll
> never hang with us, but thanks for showing up.
>
That's 2/3 of my commute one way; and it takes me about five miles to
get my legs warmed up even with lots of hills. "Training ride"?
Training for what - a trip to the hardware store? The annual beer
run?
> ..., out and back on a quiet
> rolling highway. I was damned sure to stay with the group right from
> the start, but not to push hard enough to blow up. (That was also when
> I noticed the Campy in front of me hunting for the gears my SunTour was
> hitting nicely.) Anyway, we cranked along nicely, and I was riding
> carefully, but eventually I was amazed to see gaps behind me on some of
> the rises. I was feeling good, pleased that there were no gaps in front
> of me.
>
> Turn around was in a plaza parking lot. Some guys may have expected a
> few minutes rest, I don't know. But three other guys I happened to be
> near said "Let's go!" and were quickly out of the lot. I jumped with
> them, and saw the others take off maybe 75 feet back. I figured they'd
> be back up with us soon.
>
> They weren't. The 18-year-old was the ringleader (supposedly, 2nd
> fastest in the club at that time) and he kept pushing. We pulled away
> from everyone else. Three of us were rotating, but the young guy
> wouldn't let anyone else pull; he stayed at the front.
>
So even the eventual "winner" wasn't taking it seriously. The rest
> the start, but not to push hard enough to blow up. (That was also when
> I noticed the Campy in front of me hunting for the gears my SunTour was
> hitting nicely.) Anyway, we cranked along nicely, and I was riding
> carefully, but eventually I was amazed to see gaps behind me on some of
> the rises. I was feeling good, pleased that there were no gaps in front
> of me.
>
> Turn around was in a plaza parking lot. Some guys may have expected a
> few minutes rest, I don't know. But three other guys I happened to be
> near said "Let's go!" and were quickly out of the lot. I jumped with
> them, and saw the others take off maybe 75 feet back. I figured they'd
> be back up with us soon.
>
> They weren't. The 18-year-old was the ringleader (supposedly, 2nd
> fastest in the club at that time) and he kept pushing. We pulled away
> from everyone else. Three of us were rotating, but the young guy
> wouldn't let anyone else pull; he stayed at the front.
>
sure sound like hotshots, all right :-)
> To my surprise, first one then a second guy fell off on small climbs. I
> tried again to pull, even riding up alongside him, but the young guy
> would have none of it. So I rode his wheel in to the end of the ride.
> We two finished well ahead of the next two, and far ahead of the rest of
> the group. I was feeling elated that I not only survived, I did really
> well.
>
> The young guy was pretty effusive, congratulating me on the ride. (I
> was still saying I felt bad that he wouldn't let me take a pull.) The
> guy who organized the ride came up to me and congratulated me too.
>
> The rest of the dozen? No enthusiastic friendly trash talk or support.
> Not one said anything to me. They were mostly looking kind of sullen,
> and still talking quietly among themselves about their choice of
> shifters, their rims, their tires.
>
> Nobody seemed interested in my A-124s.
>
> BTW, that 18-year-old was the same guy who (on a different ride) told me
> he could, in a sprint, feel the difference in weight from his aluminum
> cogs. Maybe that's why I didn't finish ahead of him?
>
working and he gave you a wheel all the way, why settle for 2nd?
James
Aug 4, 2012, 2:59:18 AM8/4/12
to
On Saturday, August 4, 2012 12:02:09 PM UTC+10, Frank Krygowski wrote:
< irrelevant anecdote snipped >
The is a _tech_ group, Frank. Did you know? Tell your stories at rec.bicycles.bedtimestories
We discuss technical aspects of cycling. That requires *data*, not anecdotes. Get with program, man.
--
JS
< irrelevant anecdote snipped >
The is a _tech_ group, Frank. Did you know? Tell your stories at rec.bicycles.bedtimestories
We discuss technical aspects of cycling. That requires *data*, not anecdotes. Get with program, man.
--
JS
Lou Holtman
Aug 4, 2012, 6:12:19 AM8/4/12
to
Op 3-8-2012 20:19, Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank, if you ream the inside don't you need a fatter seatpost? Just
asking.
Smart people know when to back off...
About this weight: don't make it heavier than necessary. Twenty years
ago this meant a bike which weigh 10 kg. Today that same bike weighs 8.5
kg and as a bonus you get brifters, better wheels, more gears, better
cables, clipless pedals .... and it cost less.
Lou
asking.
Smart people know when to back off...
About this weight: don't make it heavier than necessary. Twenty years
ago this meant a bike which weigh 10 kg. Today that same bike weighs 8.5
kg and as a bonus you get brifters, better wheels, more gears, better
cables, clipless pedals .... and it cost less.
Lou
John B.
Aug 4, 2012, 8:27:22 AM8/4/12
to
to ride a bicycle?
Cheers,
John B.
DirtRoadie
Aug 4, 2012, 9:35:58 AM8/4/12
to
compete, exchange information and share the activity - you know, like
participating in a discussion group.
Know anybody who does that?
DR
Duane Hebert
Aug 4, 2012, 12:44:50 PM8/4/12
to
there's strength in numbers. lol.
Frank Krygowski
Aug 4, 2012, 1:57:59 PM8/4/12
to
John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 22:02:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 22:02:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> They did eventually make a few friends from that club, but seldom attend
>> an actual club ride. They still say they miss the friendliness and
>> helpfulness they found when they first moved here.
>>
>> So if coughing up a lung is what you're after, you pick one type of
>> club. But there are other types, and some of us prefer those.
>
> I suppose that I am a iconoclast, but why does one need to join a club
> to ride a bicycle?
Oh, it's completely optional. But we found it to be one of the best
>> They did eventually make a few friends from that club, but seldom attend
>> an actual club ride. They still say they miss the friendliness and
>> helpfulness they found when they first moved here.
>>
>> So if coughing up a lung is what you're after, you pick one type of
>> club. But there are other types, and some of us prefer those.
>
> I suppose that I am a iconoclast, but why does one need to join a club
> to ride a bicycle?
things we ever did.
We made countless friendships (most of our closest friends were met
through the bike club), enjoyed excellent tours and other vacations via
the club, got to work on bike advocacy projects, learned about many nice
routes and rides, helped others get into cycling, and just plain had
lots of fun. I like riding alone, but I usually have a lot more fun
riding with others.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Frank Krygowski
Aug 4, 2012, 2:28:20 PM8/4/12
to
20 years younger than I, had done far more racing and training than I,
and had maybe 6% body fat, which I exceeded not long after I was his age.
B) Besides, what would I prove by hanging onto someone's wheel for the
entire ride, then trying to nip by him at the end? Even though I'd
tried to share the load, he wouldn't let me; he kept helping me. It
wouldn't make sense to me to pass him and say "Hah, I beat you."
--
- Frank Krygowski
Dan O
Aug 4, 2012, 2:39:57 PM8/4/12
to
On Aug 4, 11:28 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
> Even though I'd
> tried to share the load, he wouldn't let me; he kept helping me. It
> wouldn't make sense to me to pass him and say "Hah, I beat you."
>
Fair enough. Sounds like an exhilarating experience.
peace out
wrote:
> Dan O wrote:
> > On Aug 3, 12:06 pm, Frank Krygowski<frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> BTW, that 18-year-old was the same guy who (on a different ride) told me
> >> he could, in a sprint, feel the difference in weight from his aluminum
> >> cogs. Maybe that's why I didn't finish ahead of him?
>
> > Why do you think you didn't? I mean, really - if you had your mojo
> > working and he gave you a wheel all the way, why settle for 2nd?
>
> A) I think there's no way I could have outsprinted him. He was probably
> 20 years younger than I, had done far more racing and training than I,
> and had maybe 6% body fat, which I exceeded not long after I was his age.
>
> B) Besides, what would I prove by hanging onto someone's wheel for the
> entire ride, then trying to nip by him at the end?
1st
> > On Aug 3, 12:06 pm, Frank Krygowski<frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> BTW, that 18-year-old was the same guy who (on a different ride) told me
> >> he could, in a sprint, feel the difference in weight from his aluminum
> >> cogs. Maybe that's why I didn't finish ahead of him?
>
> > Why do you think you didn't? I mean, really - if you had your mojo
> > working and he gave you a wheel all the way, why settle for 2nd?
>
> A) I think there's no way I could have outsprinted him. He was probably
> 20 years younger than I, had done far more racing and training than I,
> and had maybe 6% body fat, which I exceeded not long after I was his age.
>
> B) Besides, what would I prove by hanging onto someone's wheel for the
> entire ride, then trying to nip by him at the end?
> Even though I'd
> tried to share the load, he wouldn't let me; he kept helping me. It
> wouldn't make sense to me to pass him and say "Hah, I beat you."
>
peace out
Frank Krygowski
Aug 4, 2012, 3:16:09 PM8/4/12
to
Fond memories.
BTW, final detail: I was so excited at the end, when loading my bike
onto the roof rack, I plopped my wallet on the car's roof, forgot it,
and drove off. After an "Oh, no!" moment at home, I drove back out to
the start of the ride and found my wallet, untouched, on the roadside.
The gods were very forgiving that day.
>
> peace out
You too.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Message has been deleted
DirtRoadie
Aug 4, 2012, 8:22:37 PM8/4/12
to
On Aug 3, 12:21 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com>
wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
> > On 8/2/2012 10:08 PM, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Yep. That's exactly the thinking that led to the fashion for
> >> "drillium." Maybe we'll see a drillium comeback start here?
>
> > That 'drill' moment has pretty much passed.
>
> > A new 1972 Record 53t is 130g on my scale. The 10 Speed Ultra Drive [1]
> > 53t Record ring is only 90g.
>
> Ah, but a mere 8 hours of drilling could reduce that 90 grams to 80
> grams. And several people here have convinced us that nothing is
> negligible!
>
> ... haven't they?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Earth to Frank,
Please provide a link to where anyone in the present discussion here
mentioned or advocated doing (within the last 25 years) what you
describe.
It is so charming that YOU think you are not smarmy.
Keep up the good work!
DR
wrote:
> AMuzi wrote:
> > On 8/2/2012 10:08 PM, frkry...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Yep. That's exactly the thinking that led to the fashion for
> >> "drillium." Maybe we'll see a drillium comeback start here?
>
> > That 'drill' moment has pretty much passed.
>
> > A new 1972 Record 53t is 130g on my scale. The 10 Speed Ultra Drive [1]
> > 53t Record ring is only 90g.
>
> Ah, but a mere 8 hours of drilling could reduce that 90 grams to 80
> grams. And several people here have convinced us that nothing is
> negligible!
>
> ... haven't they?
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Earth to Frank,
Please provide a link to where anyone in the present discussion here
mentioned or advocated doing (within the last 25 years) what you
describe.
It is so charming that YOU think you are not smarmy.
Keep up the good work!
DR
John B.
Aug 4, 2012, 10:39:59 PM8/4/12
to
was the primary interest, rather then riding the bike. "They did
eventually make a few friends from that club, but seldom attend
an actual club ride."
Cheers,
an actual club ride."
John B.
Frank Krygowski
Aug 4, 2012, 11:22:28 PM8/4/12
to
would allow them to quickly meet many people who shared one of their
biggest interests, among whom they hoped they'd find some really close
friends. That's what happened when they had moved to our area and
joined their first bike club. It definitely did not happen in their new
area.
FWIW, many years ago there was another club in our area, centered only
about 20 miles away. Its philosophy was similar to what my friends
encountered after they moved: little interest in making new folks feel
welcome, higher priority given to riding at precisely one's chosen pace
rather than adjusting to be sociable, etc. That club died.
Personally, I think middle-class American suburban life is woefully
isolated, with most people knowing little of their neighbors and passing
them only while rolling the opposite direction in glass and metal boxes.
I think we lack the minimum amount of social contact needed for
contentment. Activities like a bike club can produce a lot of pleasant
social contact.
--
- Frank Krygowski
James
Aug 5, 2012, 6:51:04 PM8/5/12
to
On 04/08/12 22:27, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 22:02:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>> We had very close friends,
They wised up.
> On Fri, 03 Aug 2012 22:02:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> wrote:
>> We had very close friends,
>> Their disappointment was immediate. With that club, showing up for a
>> ride got you a map of the ride - something I've never seen done here -
>> and a hearty wave. Essentially, rides that started with 20 people
>> immediately splintered into many three or four person rides, and most
>> people were never seen again that day. Sociability was not part of the
>> plan. Fast people were off the front, slow people were off the back,
>> and our friends were left to ride alone, following the map. The only
>> benefit was that someone had taken the trouble to choose roads they
>> thought were good for riding.
>>
>
> I suppose that I am a iconoclast, but why does one need to join a club
> to ride a bicycle?
Of course you don't *need* to join a club to ride a bicycle, but let us
> to ride a bicycle?
not forget that where Frank lives they have trouble reading a map so
they have to stick together, hoping that one of the group can remember
the way home.
--
JS.
phol...@gmail.com
Aug 5, 2012, 7:54:06 PM8/5/12
to
On Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:16:48 PM UTC-7, datakoll wrote:
> INTERESTING PAGE... is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ? one group sez those results define drug use age. party time ? as skiing ? the woman's has a on the road pass... not bad 1ST n 4TH brit whinnikng is outstanding. we weep. wait'll Wiggins wins 2...
The 2000 results are skewed right (histogram of one minute time intervals) while the 2012 results are closer to a normal-like distribution. It's a relatively small sample size so you can't rule out the difference being other than random chance.....unless (ahem!) there is other evidence to weigh in.
Phil H
> INTERESTING PAGE... is there a 2000 results sheet online...for comparison ? one group sez those results define drug use age. party time ? as skiing ? the woman's has a on the road pass... not bad 1ST n 4TH brit whinnikng is outstanding. we weep. wait'll Wiggins wins 2...
The 2000 results are skewed right (histogram of one minute time intervals) while the 2012 results are closer to a normal-like distribution. It's a relatively small sample size so you can't rule out the difference being other than random chance.....unless (ahem!) there is other evidence to weigh in.
Phil H
Gregory Sutter
Aug 9, 2012, 9:24:41 PM8/9/12
to
On 2012-08-03, datakoll <data...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> what does one 1/4" hole weigh ?
Nothing, it's a hole!
> is this the Flathead ?
Lord Dimwit Flathead the Excessive.
Has anyone yet discussed the potential aerodynamic effects of
drillium? Surely parts could be drilled at just the correct
angles to slice through the wind faster than un-drilled or
right-angle-drilled parts...
--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/
> what does one 1/4" hole weigh ?
Nothing, it's a hole!
> is this the Flathead ?
Lord Dimwit Flathead the Excessive.
Has anyone yet discussed the potential aerodynamic effects of
drillium? Surely parts could be drilled at just the correct
angles to slice through the wind faster than un-drilled or
right-angle-drilled parts...
--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless
mailto:gsu...@zer0.org
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/
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