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SEATPOST RUST WIRE BRUSH
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datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 7:08:33 PM6/2/12
to
What size do I need ?
equal to the ID, greater than, or less than the ID by how much ?
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=1.25%22&op=search&Ntt=1.25%22&sst=All&N=4293737014
one amateur problem here is placing a rust preventive film on the newly bare steel but leaving enough space for the seatpost OD.
Maybe sand it roundout with a dowel and fine grit till the seatpost slips in ?
Nate Nagel
Jun 2, 2012, 7:16:34 PM6/2/12
to
me. Do you really need a *wire* brush?
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 2, 2012, 8:51:28 PM6/2/12
to
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 16:08:33 -0700 (PDT), datakoll <data...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>What size do I need ?
>equal to the ID, greater than, or less than the ID by how much ?
>
>http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=1.25%22&op=search&Ntt=1.25%22&sst=All&N=4293737014
No, no, no. That will just gouge the steel tube. You want a smooth
surface, not a surface full of gouges, scrapes, and scratches.
Use a 1" brake hone or brush such as:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-8-eighth-inch-brake-cylinder-hone-97163.html>
<http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM6353738107P?prdNo=12>
or if you're cheap:
<http://www.amazon.com/Research-FLEX-HONE-Cylinder-Abrasive-Diameter/dp/B002XUL040>
When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
<http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
Be careful not to slop the stuff on anything. Oxalic acid is a bleach
and will leave white spots on anything that gets in its way.
>one amateur problem here is placing a rust preventive film on the newly bare steel but leaving enough space for the seatpost OD.
>Maybe sand it roundout with a dowel and fine grit till the seatpost slips in ?
If you have an interference fit, then something is wrong. It's really
difficult to build up a thick enough rust layer to totally prevent
insertion. Methinks you should check the seat tube and seat post sizes
to make sure they're compatible. Also, look for dings. Whatever you
do, don't install the seat post with a hammer. You'll never get it
out.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
wrote:
>What size do I need ?
>equal to the ID, greater than, or less than the ID by how much ?
>
>http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=1.25%22&op=search&Ntt=1.25%22&sst=All&N=4293737014
surface, not a surface full of gouges, scrapes, and scratches.
Use a 1" brake hone or brush such as:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/1-1-8-eighth-inch-brake-cylinder-hone-97163.html>
<http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_SPM6353738107P?prdNo=12>
or if you're cheap:
<http://www.amazon.com/Research-FLEX-HONE-Cylinder-Abrasive-Diameter/dp/B002XUL040>
When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
<http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
Be careful not to slop the stuff on anything. Oxalic acid is a bleach
and will leave white spots on anything that gets in its way.
>one amateur problem here is placing a rust preventive film on the newly bare steel but leaving enough space for the seatpost OD.
>Maybe sand it roundout with a dowel and fine grit till the seatpost slips in ?
difficult to build up a thick enough rust layer to totally prevent
insertion. Methinks you should check the seat tube and seat post sizes
to make sure they're compatible. Also, look for dings. Whatever you
do, don't install the seat post with a hammer. You'll never get it
out.
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
thirty-six
Jun 2, 2012, 10:10:37 PM6/2/12
to
On Jun 3, 12:08 am, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What size do I need ?
>
> equal to the ID, greater than, or less than the ID by how much ?
>
> http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?searchQuery=1.25%22...
> What size do I need ?
>
> equal to the ID, greater than, or less than the ID by how much ?
>
>
> one amateur problem here is placing a rust preventive film on the newly bare steel but leaving enough space for the seatpost OD.
> Maybe sand it roundout with a dowel and fine grit till the seatpost slips in ?
An adjustable reamer is the way but it's not that important and as
> one amateur problem here is placing a rust preventive film on the newly bare steel but leaving enough space for the seatpost OD.
> Maybe sand it roundout with a dowel and fine grit till the seatpost slips in ?
long as you use glasspaper and not emery or the like, then it should
go well. IIRC I used a length of broom handle with the sandpaper
loosely wrapped, although you could improve on this by sticking it
with latex. Clean out the grit with a parafin wetted cloth.
DirtRoadie
Jun 2, 2012, 10:19:56 PM6/2/12
to
On Jun 2, 6:51 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
> as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
> <http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
Seriously? Oxalic acid?
> When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
> as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
> <http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
This does not seem to mention that:
http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGResourceCenter.asp?sn=ms2&msdstyp=PROCBG&msdsprc=40
DR
datakoll
Jun 2, 2012, 11:08:59 PM6/2/12
to
Jeff maybe your fabric memory is foolin' you. Oxalic is a 'soap' used to clean unfinished fabric before dyeing. Rusto and ship's paints use phosphoric acis to harden the surface rust for painting.
Rustsolver paints should never go on bike frames, itsa loser. Rustsolvers are meant for stuff not worth shit lika mailbox. I experimentally used rustsolver on muh Volvo roof-in a n emergency situatiuon, I was moving-one spot, the very last spot I redid and the very last of all the body/frame/suspension surfaces redone-was a freakin pool of water under a Rusto top coat.
The rust in minor. You all assume rust digs in nevenly but thisnot true. Rust digs in unevenly. What a brush does is wipe into a rust mining pit, flatten (3 T's ?) sides as it digs out the softer rust in the core.
'Sanding, on the other lobe, flattens all metal as you level the plain to remove rust. This is ineffectient.
Gouges improve paint holding capacity. I think ura goofing on me. YOU PIG.
Otherwise a dowel works but doesn't remove rust, it removes paint and metal, then rust. What you get is a thinner seat post tube.
I'm channeling a size smaller than the tube. I think maybe I'll go electric. The hand tool prices were a surprise but the level is pro. What I see down at McElroy's is DIY. ?
Over at Summit Racing, urethane reigns now. I doahno if urethane comes in a pint. I do after several days in Santa Cruz.Leibermann's goofi
ng on us.
Paint reduces ID to prevent insertion. You bet ! Esp. rusto.
Rustsolver paints should never go on bike frames, itsa loser. Rustsolvers are meant for stuff not worth shit lika mailbox. I experimentally used rustsolver on muh Volvo roof-in a n emergency situatiuon, I was moving-one spot, the very last spot I redid and the very last of all the body/frame/suspension surfaces redone-was a freakin pool of water under a Rusto top coat.
The rust in minor. You all assume rust digs in nevenly but thisnot true. Rust digs in unevenly. What a brush does is wipe into a rust mining pit, flatten (3 T's ?) sides as it digs out the softer rust in the core.
'Sanding, on the other lobe, flattens all metal as you level the plain to remove rust. This is ineffectient.
Gouges improve paint holding capacity. I think ura goofing on me. YOU PIG.
Otherwise a dowel works but doesn't remove rust, it removes paint and metal, then rust. What you get is a thinner seat post tube.
I'm channeling a size smaller than the tube. I think maybe I'll go electric. The hand tool prices were a surprise but the level is pro. What I see down at McElroy's is DIY. ?
Over at Summit Racing, urethane reigns now. I doahno if urethane comes in a pint. I do after several days in Santa Cruz.Leibermann's goofi
ng on us.
Paint reduces ID to prevent insertion. You bet ! Esp. rusto.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 2, 2012, 11:42:10 PM6/2/12
to
<http://www.alan.net/prgshoptips/rustconv.html>
There are two primary components in a rust converters:
a tannin (usually in the form of tannic acid) and an organic
polymer. The organic polymer provides a protective primer layer.
Since the conversion reaction occurs faster in an acidic
environment, some manufacturers will add oxalic or phosphoric
acid to their rust converters to lower the pH and speed up the
reaction.
The tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with
the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable
blue/black corrosion product.
Tannic acid is the active ingredient, but that is also missing from
the MSDS data:
<http://www.rustoleum.com/cbg_techdocs_msds_display.asp?MSDS=266154>
Digging deeper, I find:
<http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html>
Oxalic acid operates to remove rust by forming a water-solable
complex ion (called a chelate) around each iron ion. So do
cyanide compounds. Both react likewise with the iron in your
blood, meaning the oxalates are just as poisonous as the cyanides.
and:
<http://www.chemspecworld.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=184>
<http://www.chemspecworld.com/fileshare/product_msds//pro/rustremover(oxalicacid).pdf>
which indicate that the oxalic acid is the rust remover, while the
tannic acid reacts with the rust and prevents further corrosion.
Some of the other products are equally cryptic:
Permatex
<http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/body_interior_trim/auto_Permatex_Rust_Treatment.htm>
<http://www.permatex.com/documents/msds/01_USA-English/81775.pdf>
which show an "organic acid" which is most likely oxalic acid.
VACTAN
<http://www.esyte.co.uk/vactan.html>
<http://www.esyte.co.uk/pdf/vactan.pdf>
which shows tannic acid and a vinyl acrylic copolymer which is
probably a thickener.
Klean Strip
<http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/klean-strip-rust-converter-p-12824.aspx>
<http://www.wmbarr.com/MSDSZipFiles/KleanStrip-Jun-02-2012_09-33-39.zip>
which shows neither tannic acid or oxalic acid.
Looks like there's more than one way to do rust reformer/converter,
some of which are not obvious.
I've been using just oxalic acid for the initial rust removal, and
sometimes adding Rustoleum Rust Reformer to prevent further corrosion.
I forgot about the tannic acid. Thanks for catching my error.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 12:24:06 AM6/3/12
to
On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 20:08:59 -0700 (PDT), datakoll <data...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Jeff maybe your fabric memory is foolin' you.
My memory is perfect. Now, what were we discussing?
>Oxalic is a 'soap' used to clean unfinished fabric before dyeing.
It's also a bleach and a really good reducing agent for removing
calcium scum from fiberglass boat bottoms. Drag yourself over to the
carpentry section of any hardware store and note the can of oxalic
acid crystals for bleaching wood. You can also use oxalic acid to
remove pen and ink signatures from documents.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid#Applications>
Oxalic acid's main applications include cleaning or bleaching,
especially for the removal of rust (iron complexing agent),
e.g. Bar Keepers Friend is an example of a household cleaner
containing oxalic acid. About 25% of produced oxalic acid
is used as a mordant in dyeing processes. It is used in
bleaches, especially for pulpwood. It is also used in baking
powder.
A mordant is a compound to help the dye attach itself to the cloth.
>Rusto and ship's paints use phosphoric acis to harden the
>surface rust for painting.
Nope. You're not going to harden steel at room temperature. That
takes much more heat. Phosphoric acid can also be used to remove rust
(instead of oxalic acid) but is not quite as good at forming a rust
resistant compound out of the surface rust.
>Rustsolver paints should never go on bike frames, itsa loser.
>Rustsolvers are meant for stuff not worth shit lika mailbox.
>I experimentally used rustsolver on muh Volvo roof-in an
>emergency situatiuon, I was moving-one spot, the very last
>spot I redid and the very last of all the body/frame/suspension
>surfaces redone-was a freakin pool of water under a Rusto top coat.
Well yes, it will make a mess of the paint job. Just keep the stuff
on the inside of the seat tube. A wet towel should be sufficient to
wash off any excess. I've done it on two frames so far without any
damage.
Incidentally, I'm about to re-learn what I've forgotten about doing
auto body work. I bashed in the passenger side door on my Subaru and
am cheap enough to do the work myself.
>The rust in minor.
Now, you tell us. Is there anything else that we should know?
>You all assume rust digs in nevenly but thisnot true. Rust digs
>in unevenly. What a brush does is wipe into a rust mining pit,
>flatten (3 T's ?) sides as it digs out the softer rust in the core.
>'Sanding, on the other lobe, flattens all metal as you level
>the plain to remove rust. This is ineffectient.
I've only worked on two frames that required aggressive cleaning. Most
of what I've seen in the seat tube are fairly minor accumulations of
rust. If you have corrosion that's deep enough to cause pitting, it
will certainly take more than surface sanding to remove. However,
I've never seen pitting that deep, except bikes that live near the
beach. Usually the outside is worse than the inside.
>Gouges improve paint holding capacity. I think ura goofing on me. YOU PIG.
Huh? Are you painting the inside of your seat tube? Why?
If the paint is soft (highly likely) it's going to glue the seat post
to the seat tube.
>Otherwise a dowel works but doesn't remove rust, it removes paint
>and metal, then rust. What you get is a thinner seat post tube.
Assuming double butting, your seat post is between 0.5 and 1.0mm
thick.
<http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm>
It's going to take an awful lot of corrosion to weaken even a 0.5mm
wall.
>I'm channeling a size smaller than the tube. I think maybe I'll
>go electric. The hand tool prices were a surprise but the level
>is pro. What I see down at McElroy's is DIY. ?
Electric offers the opportunity to do maximum damage in a shorter
time. Go slow and try to avoid putting a groove (stress riser) into
the inside the seat tube.
>Over at Summit Racing, urethane reigns now. I doahno if urethane
>comes in a pint. I do after several days in Santa Cruz.Leibermann's
>goofing on us.
Urethane for what? Paint? Glue? Fence post compound? Foam?
I missed AMGEN stage 2 (again) this year. I had planned to take the
Monday off, but my customers decided otherwise. By the time their
crisis was over, it was too late.
>Paint reduces ID to prevent insertion. You bet ! Esp. rusto.
Do you really paint the inside of the seat tube? I've never heard of
that. I suspect it's a bad idea and certainly overkill for what you
confess to being a "minor" rust problem.
What to do when your seat post gets stuck in the paint:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html>
wrote:
>Jeff maybe your fabric memory is foolin' you.
>Oxalic is a 'soap' used to clean unfinished fabric before dyeing.
calcium scum from fiberglass boat bottoms. Drag yourself over to the
carpentry section of any hardware store and note the can of oxalic
acid crystals for bleaching wood. You can also use oxalic acid to
remove pen and ink signatures from documents.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid#Applications>
Oxalic acid's main applications include cleaning or bleaching,
especially for the removal of rust (iron complexing agent),
e.g. Bar Keepers Friend is an example of a household cleaner
containing oxalic acid. About 25% of produced oxalic acid
is used as a mordant in dyeing processes. It is used in
bleaches, especially for pulpwood. It is also used in baking
powder.
A mordant is a compound to help the dye attach itself to the cloth.
>Rusto and ship's paints use phosphoric acis to harden the
>surface rust for painting.
takes much more heat. Phosphoric acid can also be used to remove rust
(instead of oxalic acid) but is not quite as good at forming a rust
resistant compound out of the surface rust.
>Rustsolver paints should never go on bike frames, itsa loser.
>Rustsolvers are meant for stuff not worth shit lika mailbox.
>I experimentally used rustsolver on muh Volvo roof-in an
>emergency situatiuon, I was moving-one spot, the very last
>spot I redid and the very last of all the body/frame/suspension
>surfaces redone-was a freakin pool of water under a Rusto top coat.
on the inside of the seat tube. A wet towel should be sufficient to
wash off any excess. I've done it on two frames so far without any
damage.
Incidentally, I'm about to re-learn what I've forgotten about doing
auto body work. I bashed in the passenger side door on my Subaru and
am cheap enough to do the work myself.
>The rust in minor.
Now, you tell us. Is there anything else that we should know?
>You all assume rust digs in nevenly but thisnot true. Rust digs
>in unevenly. What a brush does is wipe into a rust mining pit,
>flatten (3 T's ?) sides as it digs out the softer rust in the core.
>'Sanding, on the other lobe, flattens all metal as you level
>the plain to remove rust. This is ineffectient.
of what I've seen in the seat tube are fairly minor accumulations of
rust. If you have corrosion that's deep enough to cause pitting, it
will certainly take more than surface sanding to remove. However,
I've never seen pitting that deep, except bikes that live near the
beach. Usually the outside is worse than the inside.
>Gouges improve paint holding capacity. I think ura goofing on me. YOU PIG.
If the paint is soft (highly likely) it's going to glue the seat post
to the seat tube.
>Otherwise a dowel works but doesn't remove rust, it removes paint
>and metal, then rust. What you get is a thinner seat post tube.
thick.
<http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/columbus/columbuschart.htm>
It's going to take an awful lot of corrosion to weaken even a 0.5mm
wall.
>I'm channeling a size smaller than the tube. I think maybe I'll
>go electric. The hand tool prices were a surprise but the level
>is pro. What I see down at McElroy's is DIY. ?
time. Go slow and try to avoid putting a groove (stress riser) into
the inside the seat tube.
>Over at Summit Racing, urethane reigns now. I doahno if urethane
>comes in a pint. I do after several days in Santa Cruz.Leibermann's
>goofing on us.
I missed AMGEN stage 2 (again) this year. I had planned to take the
Monday off, but my customers decided otherwise. By the time their
crisis was over, it was too late.
>Paint reduces ID to prevent insertion. You bet ! Esp. rusto.
that. I suspect it's a bad idea and certainly overkill for what you
confess to being a "minor" rust problem.
What to do when your seat post gets stuck in the paint:
<http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html>
DirtRoadie
Jun 2, 2012, 11:49:35 PM6/2/12
to
On Jun 2, 9:42 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:19:56 -0700 (PDT), DirtRoadie
>
> On Sat, 2 Jun 2012 19:19:56 -0700 (PDT), DirtRoadie
>
> <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 2, 6:51 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> >> When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
> >> as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
> >> <http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
> >Seriously? Oxalic acid?
> >This does not seem to mention that:
> >http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGResourceCenter.asp?sn=ms2&msdstyp=PROCBG&...
> >On Jun 2, 6:51 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> >> When done, smear some "rust reformer" or "rust converter", also known
> >> as oxalic acid, on the surface to prevent furthur rusting.
> >> <http://rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=363>
> >Seriously? Oxalic acid?
> >This does not seem to mention that:
>
> Forgive me for I have screwed up, somewhat. See:
> <http://www.alan.net/prgshoptips/rustconv.html>
> There are two primary components in a rust converters:
> a tannin (usually in the form of tannic acid) and an organic
> polymer. The organic polymer provides a protective primer layer.
> Since the conversion reaction occurs faster in an acidic
> environment, some manufacturers will add oxalic or phosphoric
> acid to their rust converters to lower the pH and speed up the
> reaction.
>
> The tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with
> the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable
> blue/black corrosion product.
>
> Tannic acid is the active ingredient, but that is also missing from
> the MSDS data:
> <http://www.rustoleum.com/cbg_techdocs_msds_display.asp?MSDS=266154>
>
> Digging deeper, I find:
> <http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html>
> Oxalic acid operates to remove rust by forming a water-solable
> complex ion (called a chelate) around each iron ion. So do
> cyanide compounds. Both react likewise with the iron in your
> blood, meaning the oxalates are just as poisonous as the cyanides.
> and:
> <http://www.chemspecworld.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=184>
> <http://www.chemspecworld.com/fileshare/product_msds//pro/rustremover(...>
> Forgive me for I have screwed up, somewhat. See:
> <http://www.alan.net/prgshoptips/rustconv.html>
> There are two primary components in a rust converters:
> a tannin (usually in the form of tannic acid) and an organic
> polymer. The organic polymer provides a protective primer layer.
> Since the conversion reaction occurs faster in an acidic
> environment, some manufacturers will add oxalic or phosphoric
> acid to their rust converters to lower the pH and speed up the
> reaction.
>
> The tannin is the heart of a rust converter. It reacts with
> the iron oxide, converting it to iron tannate, a stable
> blue/black corrosion product.
>
> Tannic acid is the active ingredient, but that is also missing from
> the MSDS data:
> <http://www.rustoleum.com/cbg_techdocs_msds_display.asp?MSDS=266154>
>
> Digging deeper, I find:
> <http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html>
> Oxalic acid operates to remove rust by forming a water-solable
> complex ion (called a chelate) around each iron ion. So do
> cyanide compounds. Both react likewise with the iron in your
> blood, meaning the oxalates are just as poisonous as the cyanides.
> and:
> <http://www.chemspecworld.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=184>
> which indicate that the oxalic acid is the rust remover, while the
> tannic acid reacts with the rust and prevents further corrosion.
>
> Some of the other products are equally cryptic:
>
> Permatex
> <http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/specialized_maintenance_r...>
> tannic acid reacts with the rust and prevents further corrosion.
>
> Some of the other products are equally cryptic:
>
> Permatex
> <http://www.permatex.com/documents/msds/01_USA-English/81775.pdf>
> which show an "organic acid" which is most likely oxalic acid.
>
> VACTAN
> <http://www.esyte.co.uk/vactan.html>
> <http://www.esyte.co.uk/pdf/vactan.pdf>
> which shows tannic acid and a vinyl acrylic copolymer which is
> probably a thickener.
>
> Klean Strip
> <http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/klean-strip-rust-converter-p-12824.aspx>
> <http://www.wmbarr.com/MSDSZipFiles/KleanStrip-Jun-02-2012_09-33-39.zip>
> which shows neither tannic acid or oxalic acid.
>
> Looks like there's more than one way to do rust reformer/converter,
> some of which are not obvious.
>
> I've been using just oxalic acid for the initial rust removal, and
> sometimes adding Rustoleum Rust Reformer to prevent further corrosion.
> I forgot about the tannic acid. Thanks for catching my error.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> which show an "organic acid" which is most likely oxalic acid.
>
> VACTAN
> <http://www.esyte.co.uk/vactan.html>
> <http://www.esyte.co.uk/pdf/vactan.pdf>
> which shows tannic acid and a vinyl acrylic copolymer which is
> probably a thickener.
>
> Klean Strip
> <http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/klean-strip-rust-converter-p-12824.aspx>
> <http://www.wmbarr.com/MSDSZipFiles/KleanStrip-Jun-02-2012_09-33-39.zip>
> which shows neither tannic acid or oxalic acid.
>
> Looks like there's more than one way to do rust reformer/converter,
> some of which are not obvious.
>
> I've been using just oxalic acid for the initial rust removal, and
> sometimes adding Rustoleum Rust Reformer to prevent further corrosion.
> I forgot about the tannic acid. Thanks for catching my error.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Yes, thanks. I'll take a look at that info. I have been curious.
I was aware of oxalic acid being the primary component of an old
(excellent and, of course, no longer available) automotive cooling
system cleaner and recognize its (phosporic acid too) rust removal
capabilities but it was (and is) the mysterious black rust
preventative "shell" that is typically claimed in such products that
had me perplexed.
DR
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 1:53:34 PM6/3/12
to
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/msds/S_TRMT_EXTEND_msds.pdf
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
datakoll
Jun 3, 2012, 4:00:55 PM6/3/12
to
a stress riser ? My Redline steel imitation of the aluminum champ racer cost $175, was welded in Mongolia. A stress riser ?
Interesting info always when you find yourself wallowing in public info that here is phosphoric does the job. Tannin is a new idea.
Good work JL !
A survey is possible: sub phosphoric for tannin ad nauseum
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=steel+ship+hull+rust+paint+maintenance+tannic+acid&oq=steel+ship+hull+rust+paint+maintenance+tannic+acid&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...39119.42191.1.45624.12.9.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0.sa380pFD2U0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16a76c5f7e072d5b&biw=960&bih=529
The oxalic/iron/double bond ? dye from plants containing oxalic, unfortuneatly
poisonessm the to eat the berries. A long list of good looking berries here. Birds digest same, some. Crows. With digetive upset.
Fla was overrun by Brazialian Pepper with a nice red berry very staining and poisonous: need some chromo rework there
I'll try the oxalic on steel. Basic, usually use Tide with a rotary brush mounted on rod insertted into megadrill.
Paint in tube ? you bet ! The frame goes on a left rear door rect tube mounted vertically off the bumper. Wheels and seat go inside van.
a stress riser from a wire brush....outta my frame league. Kinda in the "so I clamped the plastic frame in the work stand..."
Summit's paint section gradually went urethane only. There's a rust paint there.
I like linseed and oilbase covered with maybe urethane now ? with zinc chromate IF IF IF the steel can be scraped free of rust. Floor pans are good here yet floor pans lake up...maybe urethane again.
Ford's paint, when Ford uses paint, is very good except underneath where the cus cannah see it when its covered with tar undercoat. Unitl it develops.
Interesting info always when you find yourself wallowing in public info that here is phosphoric does the job. Tannin is a new idea.
Good work JL !
A survey is possible: sub phosphoric for tannin ad nauseum
https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=gw#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=steel+ship+hull+rust+paint+maintenance+tannic+acid&oq=steel+ship+hull+rust+paint+maintenance+tannic+acid&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=hp.12...39119.42191.1.45624.12.9.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0.sa380pFD2U0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=16a76c5f7e072d5b&biw=960&bih=529
The oxalic/iron/double bond ? dye from plants containing oxalic, unfortuneatly
poisonessm the to eat the berries. A long list of good looking berries here. Birds digest same, some. Crows. With digetive upset.
Fla was overrun by Brazialian Pepper with a nice red berry very staining and poisonous: need some chromo rework there
I'll try the oxalic on steel. Basic, usually use Tide with a rotary brush mounted on rod insertted into megadrill.
Paint in tube ? you bet ! The frame goes on a left rear door rect tube mounted vertically off the bumper. Wheels and seat go inside van.
a stress riser from a wire brush....outta my frame league. Kinda in the "so I clamped the plastic frame in the work stand..."
Summit's paint section gradually went urethane only. There's a rust paint there.
I like linseed and oilbase covered with maybe urethane now ? with zinc chromate IF IF IF the steel can be scraped free of rust. Floor pans are good here yet floor pans lake up...maybe urethane again.
Ford's paint, when Ford uses paint, is very good except underneath where the cus cannah see it when its covered with tar undercoat. Unitl it develops.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 5:32:40 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 12:53:34 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>This product actually does something with steel corrosion:
>http://www.loctiteproducts.com/msds/S_TRMT_EXTEND_msds.pdf
The proprietary "organic acid" in the above Loctite MSDS is most
>This product actually does something with steel corrosion:
>http://www.loctiteproducts.com/msds/S_TRMT_EXTEND_msds.pdf
likely oxalic acid. I base that guess(tm) upon the health effects
listed on the top of Pg 4. "Blood, Corrosive, Irritant, Kidney,
Liver" are a good description of the effects of sloppy oxalic acid
handling. The barium suflate is yet another one of the assorted rust
converter formulation.
I blundered across a list of rust converter types at:
<http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA508873>
On Pg 18, it itemizes:
Rust Converters Evaluated
1.Gempler’s (water-based, tannic acid)
2.Loctite rust treatment (polymeric-based, barium sulfate)
3.Total Solutions (water-based, tannic acid)
4.Phoscote (phosphoric acid - current USMC product)
5.VpCI CorrVerter (combined rust converter and primer)
6.Corroseal (water-based, tannic acid with primer)
7.Gem Rust Killer (under test)
An interesting note near the end of the above document is that rust
converters were inappropriate for damaged coatings. The test samples
were cleaned, rust converter applied, coated with a primer, and then
gouged with a scribe. The samples that were scribed did badly
suggesting that the rust converter doesn't really work if scratched,
such as what would be expected from the seat post going in and out of
the seat tube.
James
Jun 3, 2012, 6:08:50 PM6/3/12
to
--
JS.
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 6:16:10 PM6/3/12
to
I agree. I haven't and wouldn't not use any of those on a
bicycle. And certainly not inside a seat tube.
I have been impressed with Extend for auto body use [not on
my own car], and I'm a jaded guy. Even 8 years later the
stuff seems effective where typically a clean-acid
wash-primer-color repair would have fallen away by now and
the effort required was much much less.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 6:23:04 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 13:00:55 -0700 (PDT), datakoll <data...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>a stress riser ?
Anything that raises my stress level such as the upcoming election.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_riser>
It's any gouge, crack, scratch, ding, dent, or corrosion pit, that
causes the stresses to accumulate, where it will eventually cause the
frame to buckle, and ruin your day.
>My Redline steel imitation of the aluminum champ racer
>cost $175, was welded in Mongolia. A stress riser ?
<http://www.redlinebicycles.com/components/frames>
Nice paint job. Looks like a BMX frame.
>Interesting info always when you find yourself wallowing in
>public info that here is phosphoric does the job. Tannin is
>a new idea.
Data is free. You have to work to get information.
>Good work JL !
Thanks. Any time you need to be told that you're wrong, just call me.
>A survey is possible: sub phosphoric for tannin ad nauseum
More possibilities than that. Phosphoric and oxalic are rust
removers. Tannic and others are rust converters. See my previous
rant or just read through:
<http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA508873>
Not how the rust converter/reformer craps out when gouged. Painting
the inside of the seat tube, and the gouging the paint with the seat
tube is not going to work.
>Paint in tube ? you bet !
I suggest you reconsider.
>The frame goes on a left rear door rect tube mounted vertically
>off the bumper. Wheels and seat go inside van.
There are literally hundreds of ways to mount a bicycle on a vehicle.
All of them are ugly and awkward. A few are dangerous. I once
hung my bike from the back door of my Subaru in an unusual manner.
(Sorry, no photos). I removed the front wheel and handlebar
accessories, but left everything else attached. The bend in the fork
was a fairly close match for the hatch back on the Subaru. The fork
was attached with some nylon rope to the dropouts, and then under the
hatch door. The bike was stabilized in this position by some fishing
line over the top and to the sides. To the casual observer, it looked
like my car had been rear-ended by a bicycle. The arrangement would
never have survived much over 25mph. I only drove around town with it
for about 30 minutes when I was convinced that it was "unsafe" by the
local police.
>a stress riser from a wire brush....outta my frame league.
You won't get that from using a wire brush. You'll get it from your
allegedly "deep" corrosion pitting. Make up thy mind. You either
have a minor case of corrosion, or a major case. It's major if your
frame is in danger of buckling.
>Summit's paint section gradually went urethane only. There's a
>rust paint there.
Have you considered a rust colored paint job? That way, if there's
any rust, you'll never see it.
>I like linseed and oilbase covered with maybe urethane now ?
Yech. I suggest you get some vinyl adhesive shelf paper. Floral or
animal skin designs might be appropriate. Cut to size and wrap it
around the major frame tubes. Over with multiple layers of lacquer.
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/decorative-self-adhesive-vinyl-contact-papers-c-129.html>
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/animal-skin-contact-paper-self-adhesive-c-276.html>
Hmmm... wood frame bicycles are suppose to be cool, so maybe wood
grain:
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/Wood-Grain-Contact-paper-c-132.html>
>with zinc chromate IF IF IF the steel can be scraped free of rust.
The whole idea behind the rust reformer/converter is that you can bury
the converted rust under a layer or three of paint.
>Floor pans are good here yet floor pans lake up...maybe urethane again.
I once drove my 1960 Falcon into Lake Arrowhead trying to launch a
boat. To drain the floor pan, I shot several .22 holes through the
floor.
>Ford's paint, when Ford uses paint, is very good except underneath
>where the cus cannah see it when its covered with tar undercoat.
>Unitl it develops.
Ford hot dip galvanizes the entire body. It then paints the visible
parts, and coats the bottom with undercoating. The visible part is
suppose to look good. The undercoating is to prevent corrosion
damage, mostly from ice melting salted roads and semi-marine
environments.
wrote:
>a stress riser ?
Anything that raises my stress level such as the upcoming election.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_riser>
It's any gouge, crack, scratch, ding, dent, or corrosion pit, that
causes the stresses to accumulate, where it will eventually cause the
frame to buckle, and ruin your day.
>My Redline steel imitation of the aluminum champ racer
>cost $175, was welded in Mongolia. A stress riser ?
Nice paint job. Looks like a BMX frame.
>Interesting info always when you find yourself wallowing in
>public info that here is phosphoric does the job. Tannin is
>a new idea.
>Good work JL !
Thanks. Any time you need to be told that you're wrong, just call me.
>A survey is possible: sub phosphoric for tannin ad nauseum
removers. Tannic and others are rust converters. See my previous
rant or just read through:
<http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA508873>
Not how the rust converter/reformer craps out when gouged. Painting
the inside of the seat tube, and the gouging the paint with the seat
tube is not going to work.
>Paint in tube ? you bet !
>The frame goes on a left rear door rect tube mounted vertically
>off the bumper. Wheels and seat go inside van.
All of them are ugly and awkward. A few are dangerous. I once
hung my bike from the back door of my Subaru in an unusual manner.
(Sorry, no photos). I removed the front wheel and handlebar
accessories, but left everything else attached. The bend in the fork
was a fairly close match for the hatch back on the Subaru. The fork
was attached with some nylon rope to the dropouts, and then under the
hatch door. The bike was stabilized in this position by some fishing
line over the top and to the sides. To the casual observer, it looked
like my car had been rear-ended by a bicycle. The arrangement would
never have survived much over 25mph. I only drove around town with it
for about 30 minutes when I was convinced that it was "unsafe" by the
local police.
>a stress riser from a wire brush....outta my frame league.
allegedly "deep" corrosion pitting. Make up thy mind. You either
have a minor case of corrosion, or a major case. It's major if your
frame is in danger of buckling.
>Summit's paint section gradually went urethane only. There's a
>rust paint there.
any rust, you'll never see it.
>I like linseed and oilbase covered with maybe urethane now ?
animal skin designs might be appropriate. Cut to size and wrap it
around the major frame tubes. Over with multiple layers of lacquer.
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/decorative-self-adhesive-vinyl-contact-papers-c-129.html>
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/animal-skin-contact-paper-self-adhesive-c-276.html>
Hmmm... wood frame bicycles are suppose to be cool, so maybe wood
grain:
<http://www.designyourwall.com/store/Wood-Grain-Contact-paper-c-132.html>
>with zinc chromate IF IF IF the steel can be scraped free of rust.
the converted rust under a layer or three of paint.
>Floor pans are good here yet floor pans lake up...maybe urethane again.
boat. To drain the floor pan, I shot several .22 holes through the
floor.
>Ford's paint, when Ford uses paint, is very good except underneath
>where the cus cannah see it when its covered with tar undercoat.
>Unitl it develops.
parts, and coats the bottom with undercoating. The visible part is
suppose to look good. The undercoating is to prevent corrosion
damage, mostly from ice melting salted roads and semi-marine
environments.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 6:52:54 PM6/3/12
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:08:50 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>So I should throw a cup of black tea over my rusty bits?
No. Both black tea and green tea contain tannin, but not tannic acid.
<http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_tea_contain_tannic_acid>
And no, you cannot use tea to tan leather for your bicycle saddle. If
it were true, I'm sure someone would be selling "herbal" rust remover
based on green or black tea. However, black tea is good as a
poultice, for swelling, insect bites, tooth infections, etc.
<http://voices.yahoo.com/making-herbal-poultices-2703639.html>
You might try Coca-Cola, which contains carbonic acid, and is
tolerable for removing rust from chrome bumpers and rusted junk.
(There's only about 0.25% phosphoric acid in Coca-Cola, which does
next to nothing for removing rust).
<http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp>
Incidentally, here's one article for removing rust which recommends
dumping the frame into a plastic kiddie pool full of white vinegar for
several days:
<http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/799161-Removing-rust-from-seat-and-steering-tube-of-1979-Raleigh-Super-Grand-Prix?p=13861431&viewfull=1#post13861431>
I wonder if anyone actually does that?
wrote:
>So I should throw a cup of black tea over my rusty bits?
<http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_tea_contain_tannic_acid>
And no, you cannot use tea to tan leather for your bicycle saddle. If
it were true, I'm sure someone would be selling "herbal" rust remover
based on green or black tea. However, black tea is good as a
poultice, for swelling, insect bites, tooth infections, etc.
<http://voices.yahoo.com/making-herbal-poultices-2703639.html>
You might try Coca-Cola, which contains carbonic acid, and is
tolerable for removing rust from chrome bumpers and rusted junk.
(There's only about 0.25% phosphoric acid in Coca-Cola, which does
next to nothing for removing rust).
<http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp>
Incidentally, here's one article for removing rust which recommends
dumping the frame into a plastic kiddie pool full of white vinegar for
several days:
<http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/799161-Removing-rust-from-seat-and-steering-tube-of-1979-Raleigh-Super-Grand-Prix?p=13861431&viewfull=1#post13861431>
I wonder if anyone actually does that?
raamman
Jun 3, 2012, 7:54:17 PM6/3/12
to
as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
chemical solutions ?
stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
chemical solutions ?
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 8:25:15 PM6/3/12
to
frame's strength would be affected.
Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable
solvents and penetrants.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 8:26:58 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:54:17 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>chemical solutions ?
<http://sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html>
#14. Sodium hydroxide. Dissolve the aluminum seat post.
Hint: If you have an interference fit between the seat post and the
seat tube, there is no space for capillary action to allow any
chemical solvent to enter the area. You can try with penetrating oil,
but I doubt it will get very far up the tube. One trick is to plug
the seat post with a wax plug, turn the bike upside down, and fill the
seat tube with penetrating oil. I got one free that way, but it still
required some brutality to break free.
I once talked a friend into pounding some dry ice into the seat post
until it shrank enough to break free. I'm not sure if that was the
solution or something else he was doing, but in the end, it worked.
wrote:
>as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>chemical solutions ?
#14. Sodium hydroxide. Dissolve the aluminum seat post.
Hint: If you have an interference fit between the seat post and the
seat tube, there is no space for capillary action to allow any
chemical solvent to enter the area. You can try with penetrating oil,
but I doubt it will get very far up the tube. One trick is to plug
the seat post with a wax plug, turn the bike upside down, and fill the
seat tube with penetrating oil. I got one free that way, but it still
required some brutality to break free.
I once talked a friend into pounding some dry ice into the seat post
until it shrank enough to break free. I'm not sure if that was the
solution or something else he was doing, but in the end, it worked.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 8:36:02 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:25:15 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>raamman wrote:
>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>> chemical solutions ?
>
>Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel
>frame's strength would be affected.
Ummm... aluminum expands at approx twice the rate of steel. If you
>raamman wrote:
>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>> chemical solutions ?
>
>Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel
>frame's strength would be affected.
heat the combined assembly, there's a fair chance that the expanding
aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube before the aluminum
melts. In any case, the paint job will probably be a total loss
before the aluminum melts.
>Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable
>solvents and penetrants.
fairly safe.
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 8:45:19 PM6/3/12
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:25:15 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> raamman wrote:
>>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>>> chemical solutions ?
>> Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel
>> frame's strength would be affected.
>
> Ummm... aluminum expands at approx twice the rate of steel. If you
> heat the combined assembly, there's a fair chance that the expanding
> aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube before the aluminum
> melts. In any case, the paint job will probably be a total loss
> before the aluminum melts.
>
>> Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable
>> solvents and penetrants.
>
> Just drop a match into the tube. After the initial bang, it should be
> fairly safe.
> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
That doesn't happen and I have dozens of iterations. Use a
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:25:15 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> raamman wrote:
>>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>>> chemical solutions ?
>> Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel
>> frame's strength would be affected.
>
> Ummm... aluminum expands at approx twice the rate of steel. If you
> heat the combined assembly, there's a fair chance that the expanding
> aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube before the aluminum
> melts. In any case, the paint job will probably be a total loss
> before the aluminum melts.
>
>> Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable
>> solvents and penetrants.
>
> Just drop a match into the tube. After the initial bang, it should be
> fairly safe.
> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
large cool flame, start on the aluminum post stub and then
heat evenly:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
more:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
Robert Borchert
Jun 3, 2012, 9:09:19 PM6/3/12
to
Awesome! I was just looking at the molten mass of aluminum, what a mess! That titanium post is a clear case in point, isn't it?
It's worth a shot, try PB Blaster on the post, let it soak for a few hours.
http://www.blastergroup.com.au/PB_Blaster.html
Dissimilar metals corrosion can be a real pickle. It's a good idea to regularly remove the aluminum seat post and lightly grease the seat tube. The Extend rust treatment is very good stuff, I have used it for many years.
Bobby
It's worth a shot, try PB Blaster on the post, let it soak for a few hours.
http://www.blastergroup.com.au/PB_Blaster.html
Dissimilar metals corrosion can be a real pickle. It's a good idea to regularly remove the aluminum seat post and lightly grease the seat tube. The Extend rust treatment is very good stuff, I have used it for many years.
Bobby
John B.
Jun 3, 2012, 9:11:59 PM6/3/12
to
>as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>chemical solutions ?
I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>chemical solutions ?
aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
(acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
major undertaking on its own.
--
Cheers,
John B.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 3, 2012, 9:13:51 PM6/3/12
to
On 6/3/2012 7:25 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
> raamman wrote:
>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>> chemical solutions ?
>
> Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel frame's strength
> would be affected.
>
> Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable solvents and
> penetrants.
>
Or do it outside in a parking lot well away from any vehicles.
> raamman wrote:
>> as subject say, what about removing and aluminum seatpost galvanically
>> stuck in a cromo tube- I tried amonia with no effect- any other good
>> chemical solutions ?
>
> Aluminum melts well below the range in which your steel frame's strength
> would be affected.
>
> Don't start that if your frame is still full of flammable solvents and
> penetrants.
>
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 9:17:13 PM6/3/12
to
I once shot an 8-flute reamer right out the side of a brand
new freshly painted frame when I was working for Ray
Gasiorowsky.
To his credit, he didn't kill me, as I richly deserved.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 10:04:17 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:45:19 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
>
>That doesn't happen and I have dozens of iterations. Use a
>large cool flame, start on the aluminum post stub and then
>heat evenly:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>
>more:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
Nicely done and very impressive, especially the titanium seat post
>> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
>
>That doesn't happen and I have dozens of iterations. Use a
>large cool flame, start on the aluminum post stub and then
>heat evenly:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>
>more:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
extraction. With only 20mm left holding the titanium seat post in
place, I would guess(tm) that there was considerable galling. How did
you finally get it apart?
I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
Thanks.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 10:14:21 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 18:09:19 -0700 (PDT), Robert Borchert
<race...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It's worth a shot, try PB Blaster on the post, let it soak for a few hours.
>http://www.blastergroup.com.au/PB_Blaster.html
I don't see anything in the MSDS sheet that looks like a catalyst.
<race...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It's worth a shot, try PB Blaster on the post, let it soak for a few hours.
>http://www.blastergroup.com.au/PB_Blaster.html
<http://www.blastergroup.com.au/msds/PBPenetratingCatalyst.pdf>
It looks like 3 different petroleum solvents and a sulfactant (surface
tension reducer).
AMuzi
Jun 3, 2012, 10:30:37 PM6/3/12
to
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:45:19 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
>> That doesn't happen and I have dozens of iterations. Use a
>> large cool flame, start on the aluminum post stub and then
>> heat evenly:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>>
>> more:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
>
> Nicely done and very impressive, especially the titanium seat post
> extraction. With only 20mm left holding the titanium seat post in
> place, I would guess(tm) that there was considerable galling. How did
> you finally get it apart?
>
> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
Aluminum melts just past 1100F
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:45:19 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>> "expanding aluminum will split or deform the steel seat tube "
>> That doesn't happen and I have dozens of iterations. Use a
>> large cool flame, start on the aluminum post stub and then
>> heat evenly:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/POST_OUT.JPG
>>
>> more:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/goodn.html
>
> Nicely done and very impressive, especially the titanium seat post
> extraction. With only 20mm left holding the titanium seat post in
> place, I would guess(tm) that there was considerable galling. How did
> you finally get it apart?
>
> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
Paint disappears around 450F
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 10:36:08 PM6/3/12
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:11:59 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>(acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>major undertaking on its own.
2 Al(s) + 6 HCl(aq) => 2 AlCl3(aq) + 3 H2(g)
There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
could be convinced to burn or explode.
wrote:
>I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>(acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>major undertaking on its own.
There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
could be convinced to burn or explode.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 3, 2012, 11:07:32 PM6/3/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:30:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
>> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
>> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
>Aluminum melts just past 1100F
>Paint disappears around 450F
Maybe I won't try it the next opportunity. I hate painting.
I would be tempted to take a 15/16" drill or end mill and grind the
tip to form a pilot drill to fit the ID of the aluminum seat post.
That would keep the drill centered in the middle of the seat post. Or
just buy a counterbore drill with a replacable pilot.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore>
<http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Holemaking/Counterbores-Porting-Tools/Interchangeable-Pilot-Counterbores-Counterbore-Pilots/_/N-77h4s?cm_re=Category-_-Breadcrumb-_-Interchangeable-Pilot+Counterbores+%26+Counterbore+Pilots>
I found mention of this method in various forums, but nobody admitting
to have tried it.
>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
>> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
>> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
>Aluminum melts just past 1100F
>Paint disappears around 450F
I would be tempted to take a 15/16" drill or end mill and grind the
tip to form a pilot drill to fit the ID of the aluminum seat post.
That would keep the drill centered in the middle of the seat post. Or
just buy a counterbore drill with a replacable pilot.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore>
<http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Holemaking/Counterbores-Porting-Tools/Interchangeable-Pilot-Counterbores-Counterbore-Pilots/_/N-77h4s?cm_re=Category-_-Breadcrumb-_-Interchangeable-Pilot+Counterbores+%26+Counterbore+Pilots>
I found mention of this method in various forums, but nobody admitting
to have tried it.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 3, 2012, 11:11:27 PM6/3/12
to
On 6/3/2012 9:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:11:59 +0700, John B.<johnbs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>> aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>> (acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>> occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>> showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>> entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>> so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>> major undertaking on its own.
>
> 2 Al(s) + 6 HCl(aq) => 2 AlCl3(aq) + 3 H2(g)
> There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
> needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
> pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
> aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
> reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
>
> Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
> gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
> could be convinced to burn or explode.
>
I used to use muriatic acid (lower purity HCl) to clean concrete off
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:11:59 +0700, John B.<johnbs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>> aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>> (acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>> occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>> showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>> entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>> so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>> major undertaking on its own.
>
> 2 Al(s) + 6 HCl(aq) => 2 AlCl3(aq) + 3 H2(g)
> There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
> needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
> pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
> aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
> reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
>
> Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
> gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
> could be convinced to burn or explode.
>
aluminium alloy concrete testing equipment. Always had a strong fan
behind me, as even a small whiff of HCl is unpleasant. Left on too
long, the HCl turned the metal surface black.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 3, 2012, 11:12:20 PM6/3/12
to
On 6/3/2012 8:17 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
>
> And with its own foibles.
> I once shot an 8-flute reamer right out the side of a brand new freshly
> painted frame when I was working for Ray Gasiorowsky.
>
> To his credit, he didn't kill me, as I richly deserved.
>
Non-fatal mistakes are the best way to learn.
>
> And with its own foibles.
> I once shot an 8-flute reamer right out the side of a brand new freshly
> painted frame when I was working for Ray Gasiorowsky.
>
> To his credit, he didn't kill me, as I richly deserved.
>
James
Jun 3, 2012, 11:24:11 PM6/3/12
to
On 04/06/12 08:52, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:08:50 +1000, James<james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So I should throw a cup of black tea over my rusty bits?
>
> No. Both black tea and green tea contain tannin, but not tannic acid.
> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_tea_contain_tannic_acid>
Hmm. There is confusion on the web. It seems "tannic acid" as it is
> On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:08:50 +1000, James<james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So I should throw a cup of black tea over my rusty bits?
>
> No. Both black tea and green tea contain tannin, but not tannic acid.
> <http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_tea_contain_tannic_acid>
known as a commercial product used to treat rust, is a commercial name
for a specific compound. It appears the tannins in tea are mildly
acidic, but a different and organic compound, and as you say, not useful
in the treatment of rust.
> And no, you cannot use tea to tan leather for your bicycle saddle. If
> it were true, I'm sure someone would be selling "herbal" rust remover
> based on green or black tea. However, black tea is good as a
> poultice, for swelling, insect bites, tooth infections, etc.
> <http://voices.yahoo.com/making-herbal-poultices-2703639.html>
> You might try Coca-Cola, which contains carbonic acid, and is
> tolerable for removing rust from chrome bumpers and rusted junk.
> (There's only about 0.25% phosphoric acid in Coca-Cola, which does
> next to nothing for removing rust).
> <http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp>
>
> Incidentally, here's one article for removing rust which recommends
> dumping the frame into a plastic kiddie pool full of white vinegar for
> several days:
> <http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/799161-Removing-rust-from-seat-and-steering-tube-of-1979-Raleigh-Super-Grand-Prix?p=13861431&viewfull=1#post13861431>
> I wonder if anyone actually does that?
>
--
JS.
James
Jun 3, 2012, 11:29:52 PM6/3/12
to
fibre reinforced plastic wrapped aluminium post.
--
JS.
Robert Borchert
Jun 3, 2012, 11:52:23 PM6/3/12
to
The gears always turn in my head every time I see an interesting problem. If liquid nitrogen is available (some machine shops use it for installing valve seats) the internal seat post tube could be shrunk a bit. A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could "buzz" the offending post. Watch for the slightest movement, then twist the shaft...
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 4, 2012, 12:25:58 AM6/4/12
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 20:52:23 -0700 (PDT), Robert Borchert
<race...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The gears always turn in my head every time I
>see an interesting problem. If liquid nitrogen is available
>(some machine shops use it for installing valve seats)
>the internal seat post tube could be shrunk a bit.
Liquid nitrogen also makes a great paint remover. When cooled, the
<race...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The gears always turn in my head every time I
>see an interesting problem. If liquid nitrogen is available
>(some machine shops use it for installing valve seats)
>the internal seat post tube could be shrunk a bit.
paint become very brittle and can be easily flaked off. It goes
rather quickly and most important, doesn't leave a mess.
<http://www.meccrios.it/_articoli/sverniciatura7.pdf>
<http://www.google.com/patents/US5044129>
It also works with dry ice blasting (which I haven't seen yet).
It can also be used to harden the steel:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_hardening>
>A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could
>"buzz" the offending post. Watch for the slightest
>movement, then twist the shaft...
from the bottom of the seat post, it will mushroom and jam itself
further into the steel seat tube. If you pound from the top, you'll
just pound the seat post further into the seat tube. Methinks
rotation, with a huge "torque amplifier", would probably be safest.
datakoll
Jun 4, 2012, 1:34:37 AM6/4/12
to
same description for Tide/rotary wire brush electric drill then thinned linseed with rusto topcoat. Let dry in HOT sun or heat lamp then linseed hot surface.
What then happens: remaining rust starves for oxygen and water. Whatever wtare and o2 is left in the rust dirt us used then a scab, like what the reformers are yakking about, forms on the dirt top.
Gee whiz like anerobic staph !
the top is hard, much harder than underneath.
usa pick on it and pop, out comes the rust deposit
What then happens: remaining rust starves for oxygen and water. Whatever wtare and o2 is left in the rust dirt us used then a scab, like what the reformers are yakking about, forms on the dirt top.
Gee whiz like anerobic staph !
the top is hard, much harder than underneath.
usa pick on it and pop, out comes the rust deposit
datakoll
Jun 4, 2012, 1:42:03 AM6/4/12
to
soda pop phosphoric eats your teeth
rinse !
rinse !
datakoll
Jun 4, 2012, 1:57:02 AM6/4/12
to
well, as forpaint and autobody, I and Bruno the Volvo are NA's oldest running Vovlo team. I've taken B apart 5 times with a ten year stinit in Pa's northern tier where trout are dumped in creeks too salty for fresh water fish.
The bike is a world champion cyclocrosser....I ride hands off, eyes closed. great geometry.
I may wander over to the boat shop and gander the odds and ends on the paint shelf. You want paint, go marine, Same for poverty. Sometimes the marine people will be selling anti-rust in small cans. Gotta be given the prices.
With the seat tube, I did not develope a leakproof seal till I spotted the rust.
Andrew has it for rust reformer: the autobody shop market is huge for an effective way to get away with billing for zero work. Cheating gives results.
JL gets five stars and a arade with elephants and clowns
The bike is a world champion cyclocrosser....I ride hands off, eyes closed. great geometry.
I may wander over to the boat shop and gander the odds and ends on the paint shelf. You want paint, go marine, Same for poverty. Sometimes the marine people will be selling anti-rust in small cans. Gotta be given the prices.
With the seat tube, I did not develope a leakproof seal till I spotted the rust.
Andrew has it for rust reformer: the autobody shop market is huge for an effective way to get away with billing for zero work. Cheating gives results.
JL gets five stars and a arade with elephants and clowns
John B.
Jun 4, 2012, 7:16:05 AM6/4/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:07:32 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:30:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
>>> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
>>> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
>
>>Aluminum melts just past 1100F
>>Paint disappears around 450F
>
>Maybe I won't try it the next opportunity. I hate painting.
>
>I would be tempted to take a 15/16" drill or end mill and grind the
>tip to form a pilot drill to fit the ID of the aluminum seat post.
>That would keep the drill centered in the middle of the seat post. Or
>just buy a counterbore drill with a replacable pilot.
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore>
><http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Holemaking/Counterbores-Porting-Tools/Interchangeable-Pilot-Counterbores-Counterbore-Pilots/_/N-77h4s?cm_re=Category-_-Breadcrumb-_-Interchangeable-Pilot+Counterbores+%26+Counterbore+Pilots>
>I found mention of this method in various forums, but nobody admitting
>to have tried it.
I did essentially that although worrying about run out I made a cutter
that was fitted to the I.D. of the seat tube. The problem was that as
the cutter was cylindrical in order to be guided by the tube there was
very little chip clearance so the tool was forever having to be
removed and chips cleaned from both the hole and the cutter. It took a
while but without damaging the seat tube.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 21:30:37 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> I would have expected more problems with melting the aluminum seat
>>> post. I'll try it next opportunity. Will I need to do anything to
>>> protect the paint? Wet towel on outside?
>
>>Aluminum melts just past 1100F
>>Paint disappears around 450F
>
>Maybe I won't try it the next opportunity. I hate painting.
>
>I would be tempted to take a 15/16" drill or end mill and grind the
>tip to form a pilot drill to fit the ID of the aluminum seat post.
>That would keep the drill centered in the middle of the seat post. Or
>just buy a counterbore drill with a replacable pilot.
><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterbore>
><http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Holemaking/Counterbores-Porting-Tools/Interchangeable-Pilot-Counterbores-Counterbore-Pilots/_/N-77h4s?cm_re=Category-_-Breadcrumb-_-Interchangeable-Pilot+Counterbores+%26+Counterbore+Pilots>
>I found mention of this method in various forums, but nobody admitting
>to have tried it.
that was fitted to the I.D. of the seat tube. The problem was that as
the cutter was cylindrical in order to be guided by the tube there was
very little chip clearance so the tool was forever having to be
removed and chips cleaned from both the hole and the cutter. It took a
while but without damaging the seat tube.
--
Cheers,
John B.
John B.
Jun 4, 2012, 7:21:37 AM6/4/12
to
would be guided by the I.D. of the seat tube. Sort of a deep hole
drill kind of thing. Unfortunately with little chip clearance I spent
most of the time withdrawing the tool and swabbing chips out.
--
Cheers,
John B.
John B.
Jun 4, 2012, 7:29:25 AM6/4/12
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 19:36:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:11:59 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>>aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>>(acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>>occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>>showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>>entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>>so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>>major undertaking on its own.
>
> 2 Al(s) + 6 HCl(aq) => 2 AlCl3(aq) + 3 H2(g)
>There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
>needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
>pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
>aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
>reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
>
Yes. I used a tile cleaner made over here that is 25% acid. The
continuous pouring out old acid and pouring in new was a bit dodgy.
>Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
>gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
>could be convinced to burn or explode.
Yes, I know about that. I was told that at some country fairs there
are people who inflate balloons with the vapor from a pot containing
tile cleaner and coke cans. Apparently the kids enjoy the balloons on
a string - just like Down Town.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
>On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:11:59 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I once tried a hydrochloric acid solution which would dissolved the
>>aluminum. The problem is that the a well stuck seat post forms a water
>>(acid) tight joint with the seat tube so the reaction with the acid
>>occurs at places other then the place where the post is stuck. A trial
>>showed that it was going to take considerable time to dissolve the
>>entire seat post, and likely cause some erosion of the steel seat tube
>>so I elected to bore the seat post out of the seat tube; which is a
>>major undertaking on its own.
>
> 2 Al(s) + 6 HCl(aq) => 2 AlCl3(aq) + 3 H2(g)
>There's another reason why it failed. The volume of HCl that would be
>needed to fully dissolve a seat post is much more than what you can
>pour into the seat tube. As the aluminum goes into solution, forming
>aluminum chloride, the solution gets diluted. In order to keep the
>reaction going, you would need to constantly replenish the HCl.
>
continuous pouring out old acid and pouring in new was a bit dodgy.
>Also, you missed your chance to have some dangerous fun. For each
>gram of aluminum, about 1.5 liters of hydrogen gas is released, which
>could be convinced to burn or explode.
are people who inflate balloons with the vapor from a pot containing
tile cleaner and coke cans. Apparently the kids enjoy the balloons on
a string - just like Down Town.
--
Cheers,
John B.
datakoll
Jun 4, 2012, 11:21:05 AM6/4/12
to
if using a liquid then the frame is fixed upside down !
but the ID is unseen unviewable so neutralizing the remover remains uncertain and annoying.
dry.
Oxalic maybe a step up from Tide but I dunno Tide's plenty but then Tide doesn't have a what MSDS ?
Tide musta paidem off.
but the ID is unseen unviewable so neutralizing the remover remains uncertain and annoying.
dry.
Oxalic maybe a step up from Tide but I dunno Tide's plenty but then Tide doesn't have a what MSDS ?
Tide musta paidem off.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 4, 2012, 11:37:12 AM6/4/12
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 18:16:05 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
Thanks. Good to know that it can be done.
Methinks there's a way around the chip loading problem by using a
counterbore cutter, instead of a cylinderical cutter. The counterboar
has plenty of chip clearance. To stabilize and center the cutter,
make a round steel guide washer that fits into the seat tube. 1"
(27mm) OD and a hole to fit the cutter shank diameter. Between the
pilot shank at the front, and this added guide at the rear, the cutter
should remain centered. Of course, the chips will pile up between the
cutter and the added washer, which will need to be cleared
occasionally, but it's better than a cylinder, with nearly zero chip
clearance.
Dealing with a shaft extension is a problem. It looks like a cheap
1/4" drive extension and 2nd centering guide washer isn't going to
work. Coupling a few horsepower through a set screw coupled extension
is going to strip out. Maybe an approximately 7/8" OD steel rod (to
fit into the hold bored by the counterbore), with an extension collet,
deep hold drill extension, or full length clamp, to grab the cutter
shank. Perhaps a keyway. So much for cheap and easy.
Methinks there's a way around the chip loading problem by using a
counterbore cutter, instead of a cylinderical cutter. The counterboar
has plenty of chip clearance. To stabilize and center the cutter,
make a round steel guide washer that fits into the seat tube. 1"
(27mm) OD and a hole to fit the cutter shank diameter. Between the
pilot shank at the front, and this added guide at the rear, the cutter
should remain centered. Of course, the chips will pile up between the
cutter and the added washer, which will need to be cleared
occasionally, but it's better than a cylinder, with nearly zero chip
clearance.
Dealing with a shaft extension is a problem. It looks like a cheap
1/4" drive extension and 2nd centering guide washer isn't going to
work. Coupling a few horsepower through a set screw coupled extension
is going to strip out. Maybe an approximately 7/8" OD steel rod (to
fit into the hold bored by the counterbore), with an extension collet,
deep hold drill extension, or full length clamp, to grab the cutter
shank. Perhaps a keyway. So much for cheap and easy.
Jeff Liebermann
Jun 4, 2012, 12:10:56 PM6/4/12
to
On Mon, 4 Jun 2012 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT), datakoll <data...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>if using a liquid then the frame is fixed upside down !
Yep. The seat tube is probably double butted, which suggests that
there's a tiny gap at lower end of the seat tube. It should be easier
to deliver your favorite caustic solution by pouring it into the
bottom bracket end.
Don't forget to aggitate.
>but the ID is unseen unviewable so neutralizing the remover remains uncertain and annoying.
Unviewable?
<http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html>
Actually, this one is quite good because the minimum viewing distance
is 1". Others are as bad a 6" minimum, which is nearly useless inside
a bicycle tube. This might also work, but doesn't specify minimum
focus:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/370617545219>
>dry.
It will be easier to clean and dry once the seat tube is extracted.
>Oxalic maybe a step up from Tide but I dunno Tide's plenty but then Tide doesn't have a what MSDS ?
>Tide musta paidem off.
Proctor and Gamble MSDS:
<http://www.pg.com/productsafety/search_results.php?submit=Search&searchtext=Tide&category=msds&start=1&num=50>
Mostly sodium carbonate for the powdered stuff and various sodium
salts for the liquid form. If you're blowing soap bubbles out the
seat tube, you didn't clean it enough.
wrote:
>if using a liquid then the frame is fixed upside down !
there's a tiny gap at lower end of the seat tube. It should be easier
to deliver your favorite caustic solution by pouring it into the
bottom bracket end.
Don't forget to aggitate.
>but the ID is unseen unviewable so neutralizing the remover remains uncertain and annoying.
<http://www.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-67979.html>
Actually, this one is quite good because the minimum viewing distance
is 1". Others are as bad a 6" minimum, which is nearly useless inside
a bicycle tube. This might also work, but doesn't specify minimum
focus:
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/370617545219>
>dry.
It will be easier to clean and dry once the seat tube is extracted.
>Oxalic maybe a step up from Tide but I dunno Tide's plenty but then Tide doesn't have a what MSDS ?
>Tide musta paidem off.
<http://www.pg.com/productsafety/search_results.php?submit=Search&searchtext=Tide&category=msds&start=1&num=50>
Mostly sodium carbonate for the powdered stuff and various sodium
salts for the liquid form. If you're blowing soap bubbles out the
seat tube, you didn't clean it enough.
datakoll
Jun 4, 2012, 12:28:53 PM6/4/12
to johnbs...@gmail.com
HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN ?
RIDERS ignore the lube situation tween the tight clearances or oil then let sit out in the monsoon for 4 years ?
jeeez ya gotta pull it out OIAW.
linseed mixed with aluminum anti seize works AAA and application !
pulled a almost new MTB from the dumpsteer with a locked fork !
and no force didn't work either.
the unfork
RIDERS ignore the lube situation tween the tight clearances or oil then let sit out in the monsoon for 4 years ?
jeeez ya gotta pull it out OIAW.
linseed mixed with aluminum anti seize works AAA and application !
pulled a almost new MTB from the dumpsteer with a locked fork !
and no force didn't work either.
the unfork
Robert Borchert
Jun 4, 2012, 1:10:52 PM6/4/12
to
Cooling the interior aluminum with cryogenic nitrogen is not the exteme situation you may be thinking of. We're talking of cooling the internal aluminum, not to the point where the entire assembly (outer tube and paintwork frozen to the point of paintwork damage).
Most folks abuse the ubiquitous "air hammer". Their strongest benefit is their ability to "buzz an offending part while torque is applied to it.
Case in point, repairing a fork tube: the tube can be cooled, rather than heating the lower race. I make a small relief cut in the lower race (if it is being replaced), and apply vibration plus a steady push upward on the race. Without the air hammer's "buzz", the only option is to use a bearing extractor, or chisel the little guy free. With the air hammer, I often remove the race without leaving a single mark on it.
For this seat tube, you don't "bash" the thing in, it's vibrated until the corrosion interface is weakened, and you see the slightest movement. It can be, depending upon the condition at the top, pressed either axially (up/down) or radially (rotation). Removal involves twisting the shaft.
Other guys hide from repairing automotive stub axles with built in ABS sensor / reluctor wheel units, as the wheel is almost certainly damaged when manhandling the bearing race off. I have an air hammer tip that's been machined to fit beneath the wheel. Pressure plus vibration does the trick. A hammer and chisel destroys the assembly every time.
You're not freezing the CrMo seat tube to the point where we're recreating a scene from Terminator. Just cool it where aluminum's higher rate of expansion / contraction might be an advantage.
Most folks abuse the ubiquitous "air hammer". Their strongest benefit is their ability to "buzz an offending part while torque is applied to it.
Case in point, repairing a fork tube: the tube can be cooled, rather than heating the lower race. I make a small relief cut in the lower race (if it is being replaced), and apply vibration plus a steady push upward on the race. Without the air hammer's "buzz", the only option is to use a bearing extractor, or chisel the little guy free. With the air hammer, I often remove the race without leaving a single mark on it.
For this seat tube, you don't "bash" the thing in, it's vibrated until the corrosion interface is weakened, and you see the slightest movement. It can be, depending upon the condition at the top, pressed either axially (up/down) or radially (rotation). Removal involves twisting the shaft.
Other guys hide from repairing automotive stub axles with built in ABS sensor / reluctor wheel units, as the wheel is almost certainly damaged when manhandling the bearing race off. I have an air hammer tip that's been machined to fit beneath the wheel. Pressure plus vibration does the trick. A hammer and chisel destroys the assembly every time.
You're not freezing the CrMo seat tube to the point where we're recreating a scene from Terminator. Just cool it where aluminum's higher rate of expansion / contraction might be an advantage.
Message has been deleted
John B.
Jun 4, 2012, 8:21:51 PM6/4/12
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 08:37:12 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
If you are talking about using a standard counter-bore then you will
have to make up some sort of drive/guide that is attached to a drive
shaft. Not an overwhelming project. I initially thought about
modifying a conventional drill bit but then decided that there was a
possibility of the spiral flutes scrapping the, already, thin seat
tube.
With a store-bought counter-bore you will probably need to be
undersize by a bit. the i.d. of the seat tube was about 27.4mm on the
frame I was fooling with and I'm not sure what the closest metric size
counter-bore would be, but leaving a thin aluminum sleeve in the seat
tube is not what you want to do.
As for chip clearance, you will have the volume of the space between
the cutter flutes to hold chips as your holder/guide will block any
chips from passing the tool. I suspect that you will find that a
surprisingly small space. With the one I made the chip space was the
volume of the teeth, not a lot.
Since you will be making the counter-bore holding device it is no
problem to add a drive shaft but I do think that a 1/4" shaft might be
a bit small as depending on tooth spacing, RPM, and probably a whole
lot of other parameters, the tool may be inclined to chatter and a
thicker shaft might provide a dampening effect. I used a piece of 1/2"
tubing with a solid extension to fit a drill chick. As for torque I
just drilled a hole through the cutter and shaft and pinned it,
loosely. The drive "extension" was also pinned, loosely and at 90
degree to the cutter pin to make the shaft a bit flexible as I wanted
it to be guided by the I.D. of the tube.
>Dealing with a shaft extension is a problem. It looks like a cheap
>1/4" drive extension and 2nd centering guide washer isn't going to
>work. Coupling a few horsepower through a set screw coupled extension
>is going to strip out. Maybe an approximately 7/8" OD steel rod (to
>fit into the hold bored by the counterbore), with an extension collet,
>deep hold drill extension, or full length clamp, to grab the cutter
>shank. Perhaps a keyway. So much for cheap and easy.
With fooling about with the "acid will eat it" idea, making special
tools, and so on, it took me about a week to get that seat post out.
Which convinced me that the smart method of dealing with the problem
is to tell the seller you want him to adjust the seat height so you
can test ride the thing. If he can't move it you move on - to another
bike.
--
Cheers,
John B.
have to make up some sort of drive/guide that is attached to a drive
shaft. Not an overwhelming project. I initially thought about
modifying a conventional drill bit but then decided that there was a
possibility of the spiral flutes scrapping the, already, thin seat
tube.
With a store-bought counter-bore you will probably need to be
undersize by a bit. the i.d. of the seat tube was about 27.4mm on the
frame I was fooling with and I'm not sure what the closest metric size
counter-bore would be, but leaving a thin aluminum sleeve in the seat
tube is not what you want to do.
As for chip clearance, you will have the volume of the space between
the cutter flutes to hold chips as your holder/guide will block any
chips from passing the tool. I suspect that you will find that a
surprisingly small space. With the one I made the chip space was the
volume of the teeth, not a lot.
Since you will be making the counter-bore holding device it is no
problem to add a drive shaft but I do think that a 1/4" shaft might be
a bit small as depending on tooth spacing, RPM, and probably a whole
lot of other parameters, the tool may be inclined to chatter and a
thicker shaft might provide a dampening effect. I used a piece of 1/2"
tubing with a solid extension to fit a drill chick. As for torque I
just drilled a hole through the cutter and shaft and pinned it,
loosely. The drive "extension" was also pinned, loosely and at 90
degree to the cutter pin to make the shaft a bit flexible as I wanted
it to be guided by the I.D. of the tube.
>Dealing with a shaft extension is a problem. It looks like a cheap
>1/4" drive extension and 2nd centering guide washer isn't going to
>work. Coupling a few horsepower through a set screw coupled extension
>is going to strip out. Maybe an approximately 7/8" OD steel rod (to
>fit into the hold bored by the counterbore), with an extension collet,
>deep hold drill extension, or full length clamp, to grab the cutter
>shank. Perhaps a keyway. So much for cheap and easy.
tools, and so on, it took me about a week to get that seat post out.
Which convinced me that the smart method of dealing with the problem
is to tell the seller you want him to adjust the seat height so you
can test ride the thing. If he can't move it you move on - to another
bike.
--
Cheers,
John B.
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 12:24:04 AM6/5/12
to
uh you cut the seat tube then place a stop in the seat tube bottom: machine a seat tube stop what's this cost ?
or do we get nitro seat tube stops fromm Graingers ?
or do we get nitro seat tube stops fromm Graingers ?
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 12:51:30 AM6/5/12
to
eyayhaha I did not know household chemicals were MSDS required.
Rust is generally speaking, dirt. A Tide paste and rotary disc wire brush held in an electric drill like a Hole Hawg works the rust out of metal sheet.
having read the seta posthorror stories, mine is generously coated with ant-seize and linseed oil tho on the road using Finish Line wax with teflon as linseed's odor is not van travel tolerable.
Rust is generally speaking, dirt. A Tide paste and rotary disc wire brush held in an electric drill like a Hole Hawg works the rust out of metal sheet.
having read the seta posthorror stories, mine is generously coated with ant-seize and linseed oil tho on the road using Finish Line wax with teflon as linseed's odor is not van travel tolerable.
raamman
Jun 5, 2012, 7:04:05 AM6/5/12
to
On Jun 4, 7:21 am, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:17:13 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >John B. wrote:
> >> On Sun, 3 Jun 2012 16:54:17 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raam...@gmail.com>
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2012 20:17:13 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >John B. wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
I have both a small mill and lathe and have half way built such a tool
to ream out the stuck seat post; but securing the bike frame in line
with the mill column to avoid a disaster has it's own set of problems-
not that I can t figure out a means, just that it means I don t really
have the time or focus to go through all that to rescue an undersized
mtb frame
I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
surfaces.
raamman
Jun 5, 2012, 7:07:20 AM6/5/12
to
torch to get the seat tube hot then quenching the post with ice and
compressed air- didn t work
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 10:35:21 AM6/5/12
to
On Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:52:23 PM UTC-6, Robert Borchert wrote:
> The gears always turn in my head every time I see an interesting problem. If liquid nitrogen is available (some machine shops use it for installing valve seats) the internal seat post tube could be shrunk a bit. A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could "buzz" the offending post. Watch for the slightest movement, then twist the shaft...
is the hammer available with electric power ? What is it named ?
> The gears always turn in my head every time I see an interesting problem. If liquid nitrogen is available (some machine shops use it for installing valve seats) the internal seat post tube could be shrunk a bit. A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could "buzz" the offending post. Watch for the slightest movement, then twist the shaft...
AMuzi
Jun 5, 2012, 5:53:19 PM6/5/12
to
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
John B.
Jun 5, 2012, 7:44:41 PM6/5/12
to
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:04:05 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I would think that attempting to use machine tools to do the job is a
bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
>I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
>the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
>surfaces.
--
Cheers,
John B.
wrote:
bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
>I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
>the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
>surfaces.
Cheers,
John B.
raamman
Jun 5, 2012, 8:25:04 PM6/5/12
to
On Jun 5, 7:44 pm, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I have both a small mill and lathe and have half way built such a tool
> >to ream out the stuck seat post; but securing the bike frame in line
> >with the mill column to avoid a disaster has it's own set of problems-
> >not that I can t figure out a means, just that it means I don t really
> >have the time or focus to go through all that to rescue an undersized
> >mtb frame
>
> I would think that attempting to use machine tools to do the job is a
> bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
> the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
> guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
> frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
> inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
>
>> --
>
> >I have both a small mill and lathe and have half way built such a tool
> >to ream out the stuck seat post; but securing the bike frame in line
> >with the mill column to avoid a disaster has it's own set of problems-
> >not that I can t figure out a means, just that it means I don t really
> >have the time or focus to go through all that to rescue an undersized
> >mtb frame
>
> I would think that attempting to use machine tools to do the job is a
> bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
> the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
> guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
> frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
> inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> John B.-
yeah, I guess I might be one of those "types" that like to ensure
absolute perfection ( you should've seen how I used to clean my bike,
with a corner of a cloth getting oil, and grime off the inner links of
the chain- almost nightly when I was a courier)
I might just give chancing it a whirl then....someday
thanx
Jay Beattie
Jun 5, 2012, 9:02:05 PM6/5/12
to
On Jun 5, 4:44 pm, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:04:05 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raam...@gmail.com>
Go get the bag of adjustable reamers from Harbor Freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-adjustable-hand-reamer-set-38577.html
Sure, it's $80, but you can use them for other things, maybe . . .
assuming they don't break before you get them out of the HF parking
lot.
-- Jay Beattie
> On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 04:04:05 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raam...@gmail.com>
http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-adjustable-hand-reamer-set-38577.html
Sure, it's $80, but you can use them for other things, maybe . . .
assuming they don't break before you get them out of the HF parking
lot.
-- Jay Beattie
raamman
Jun 5, 2012, 10:33:48 PM6/5/12
to
On Jun 5, 9:02 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
>
> > I would think that attempting to use machine tools to do the job is a
> > bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
> > the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
> > guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
> > frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
> > inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
> > >I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
> > >the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
> > >surfaces.
>
> Go get the bag of adjustable reamers from Harbor Freight.http://www.harborfreight.com/11-piece-adjustable-hand-reamer-set-3857...
>
> > I would think that attempting to use machine tools to do the job is a
> > bit of overkill. There is the I.D. of the seat post and the I.D. of
> > the seat tube to use for guides and it would be far easier to simply
> > guide on these two areas rather then building a fixture to hold the
> > frame in order to use a machine to do what is essentially drilling a 1
> > inch hole in aluminum. That already has a pilot hole in it.
>
> > >I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
> > >the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
> > >surfaces.
>
> Sure, it's $80, but you can use them for other things, maybe . . .
> assuming they don't break before you get them out of the HF parking
> lot.
>
> -- Jay Beattie-
> assuming they don't break before you get them out of the HF parking
> lot.
>
WOW ! THAT is a really big help I wish I had known such tools existed
years ago ( my old horses days ended when the da seat post broke ( I
had taken to riding with my growing infant son in a backpack carrier )
and I tried chisseling it out ). I can get the size I need nearby for
less than $25. Thanks again everyone.
John B.
Jun 6, 2012, 8:49:30 AM6/6/12
to
On Tue, 5 Jun 2012 17:25:04 -0700 (PDT), raamman <raa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
I'm not sure whether absolute perfection is the correct name. If you
using a machine you are talking about some sort of boring bar that is
going the be (probably) more then a foot long and a maximum of about 1
inch in diameter and doesn't flex, hardly at all, because if it does
you just cut the seat tube. Or you are talking about using some sort
of pilot or bushing/sleeve support in which case you might as well use
a hand held device :-(
.
As for giving it a whirl; try not to. there are better things to do
:-)
wrote:
using a machine you are talking about some sort of boring bar that is
going the be (probably) more then a foot long and a maximum of about 1
inch in diameter and doesn't flex, hardly at all, because if it does
you just cut the seat tube. Or you are talking about using some sort
of pilot or bushing/sleeve support in which case you might as well use
a hand held device :-(
.
As for giving it a whirl; try not to. there are better things to do
:-)
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 6, 2012, 11:34:36 PM6/6/12
to
On 6/5/2012 6:04 AM, raamman wrote:
> [...]
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
> [...]
> I was really wondering if there was just something I might pour into
> the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
> surfaces.
Nitroglycerin. Pour in seat tube, shake well.
> the frame that would "magically" unlock the bond between the two
> surfaces.
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 6, 2012, 11:38:29 PM6/6/12
to
On 6/5/2012 4:53 PM, A. Muzi wrote:
> datakoll wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:52:23 PM UTC-6, Robert Borchert wrote:
>>> The gears always turn in my head every time I see an interesting
>>> problem. If liquid nitrogen is available (some machine shops use it
>>> for installing valve seats) the internal seat post tube could be
>>> shrunk a bit. A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could "buzz"
>>> the offending post. Watch for the slightest movement, then twist the
>>> shaft...
>>
>> is the hammer available with electric power ? What is it named ?
>
> The Hammer (Tom DeLay) has no power, electric or otherwise.
>
He may still have some insecticide around.
> datakoll wrote:
>> On Sunday, June 3, 2012 9:52:23 PM UTC-6, Robert Borchert wrote:
>>> The gears always turn in my head every time I see an interesting
>>> problem. If liquid nitrogen is available (some machine shops use it
>>> for installing valve seats) the internal seat post tube could be
>>> shrunk a bit. A little vibration from a pneumatic hammer could "buzz"
>>> the offending post. Watch for the slightest movement, then twist the
>>> shaft...
>>
>> is the hammer available with electric power ? What is it named ?
>
> The Hammer (Tom DeLay) has no power, electric or otherwise.
>
You could pound a drill bit into the stuck tube with a dead blow hammer,
then go at it with a hammer drill. Something will give. ;)
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