Bike shops, bike magazines and bike customers
Edward Dolan
not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I was
shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
Has everyone gone crazy? I got used to rather high prices once I switched to
recumbents, but $2000 was the absolute limit for me. When I was in uprights,
I eventually worked my way up to an $800 Trek carbon fiber, but it really
hurt me to spend that much money on a bike. I was used to spending around
$200 to $300. I guess these kind of bikes are now considered to be cheap and
are only to be found at the discount stores like Wal-Mart.
Bike shops appear to be catering to a small adult enthusiast market and are
no longer interested in the mass market. I noted in another bike shop owner
publication that many bike shops are now going belly up. No wonder! Anyone
who would spend thousands of dollars for a bike is crazy as a Minnesota
loon. No one needs these kind of bikes, not even professional racers.
I used to spend hours browsing bike shops for components and accessories.
Now I am in and out in a matter of minutes. All I can see are the high
prices - for everything! However, I do see that they still have some
customers, all young adults who seem not to have a clue about the value of a
dollar. When a bike shop goes out of business these days, I say good
riddance.
It is good that we have limted life spans. Otherwise, we would go insane
from the changes. Sometimes I think I have already gone around the bend.
Regards,
Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
Sir Ridesalot
Hi Ed.
Bicycling magazine is refered to as BUYcycling magazine for very good
reason. I consider it an ad magazine and have not purchase it in
years.
I can remember an article in it that claimed that fifteen gears were
totally un-needed and that ten gears were plenty. I also remember an
article on improving the bicyc;le except that the articlt dealt with a
tricycle.
Cheers from Peter
Randall M. Kehrt
The bicycle hobby has gone high end with the price YOU pay
for the bicycle a symbol of YOUR economic status. This started
back in the 1980's as the hobby of cycling has gotten a elite status
in the general riding population.
I do admit I ride a Volae Team recumbent and that I paid big bucks for
the bicycle. Today I rode it for two hours and a quarter at a average speed
of 15 mph. Total distance was 34 miles. But I have to admit I get lots of
comments about the bicycle!
Go to http://www.volaerecumbents.com/2009/volae_team.php
and YOU will see why I spent the bucks for the bicycle. If YOU
love the hobby then I need not try and justify spending the money.
If YOU do not like the hobby then nothing I can say will justify
spending $3000 for the bicycle. It is what YOU value that matters!
Randy Kehrt
Louisville, KY
USA
PS Check out this web site for my rides. Now I must learn how to
use the Garmin website for my uploads as Motionbased is ending the
service to its Garmin users. Here is the web site:
http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/user/randall52
This web site may not work as Motionbased is having issues at the
current time.
Edward Dolan
"Randall M. Kehrt" <ran...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ccZXl.53389$b9.4...@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
It is good posting manners to always include the post to which you are
responding, or at least parts of it. This should be at the top of your post.
Also, it is very bad manners to change the subject heading. I have restored
the original subject heading.
> To Ed,
>
> The bicycle hobby has gone high end with the price YOU pay
> for the bicycle a symbol of YOUR economic status. This started
> back in the 1980's as the hobby of cycling has gotten a elite status
> in the general riding population.
>
> I do admit I ride a Volae Team recumbent and that I paid big bucks for
> the bicycle. Today I rode it for two hours and a quarter at a average
> speed
> of 15 mph. Total distance was 34 miles. But I have to admit I get lots
> of
> comments about the bicycle!
>
> Go to http://www.volaerecumbents.com/2009/volae_team.php
> and YOU will see why I spent the bucks for the bicycle. If YOU
> love the hobby then I need not try and justify spending the money.
> If YOU do not like the hobby then nothing I can say will justify
> spending $3000 for the bicycle. It is what YOU value that matters!
Recumbents have always been expensive because it is a niche market. But that
is not true of upright bicycles. However, I certainly do agree with you that
it is now all for show. I question the sanity of those who think bicycles
and cycling is that important to one's identification. It is a wonderful
example of conspicuous consumption and that is all it is. $6000 for a
bicycle is a form of madness! When you pay that much for a bicycle all you
are doing is telling the world that you have more money than brains.
[...]
Randall M. Kehrt
The most expensive Volae recumbent is the Team and that is
now less than $3000 which is still a lot but not insane. The bike
shops only want to sell YOU what they carry as they I have
heard get a incentive to carry certain manufacturers bicycles.
The bike magazines are just advertisements for the manufacturers.
Randy
"Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote in message
news:qOSdnYEJKq2Z8K3X...@prairiewave.com...
Papa Tom
>>>>accessories. Now I am in and out in a matter of minutes.<<<<
My recent trip to the lbs to buy a frame pump is a good example of this. I
just needed something to pump some air and I know that none of the mini
pumps out there are very good. The teenage clerk on the floor engaged me in
an impromptu mini clinic about this pump and that pump and I almost got
sucked into buying a $45 model that could barely make my hair blow when I
pumped it. In the end, I walked out and drove to Target, where I bought a
ten dollar Schwinn mini pump that blows like a wind tunnel with each stroke.
Cycling will never catch on with the mass market as long as there's snobbery
in all the magazines and bike shops that tries to convince the average
person that nothing below a $1,000 bike and a $150 helmet is worth a damn.
I stopped reading Bicycling Magazine years ago for exactly the reason you
described. A magazine called "East Coast Bike Culture" tried to be more of
a treat for "the rest of us," but the writing, spelling, and grammar was so
poor it didn't even last for the length of my subscription. I suppose this
is partly why print media is dying. It takes a lot of big advertising sales
to cover the cost of producing a hard copy magazine. In the end, that has
to translate into extra coverage for the high-end manufacturers who bought
all the ad space!
andre...@aol.com
> To Ed,
>
> The bicycle hobby has gone high end with the price YOU pay
> for the bicycle a symbol of YOUR economic status. This started
> back in the 1980's as the hobby of cycling has gotten a elite status
> in the general riding population.
>
> I do admit I ride a Volae Team recumbent and that I paid big bucks for
> the bicycle. Today I rode it for two hours and a quarter at a average speed
> of 15 mph. Total distance was 34 miles. But I have to admit I get lots of
> comments about the bicycle!
>
> and YOU will see why I spent the bucks for the bicycle. If YOU
> love the hobby then I need not try and justify spending the money.
> If YOU do not like the hobby then nothing I can say will justify
> spending $3000 for the bicycle. It is what YOU value that matters!
>
> Randy Kehrt
> Louisville, KY
> USA
>
> PS Check out this web site for my rides. Now I must learn how to
> use the Garmin website for my uploads as Motionbased is ending the
> service to its Garmin users. Here is the web site:http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/user/randall52
> This web site may not work as Motionbased is having issues at the
> current time.
It is true that prices have completely gone up to absurd levels. At
the same time, the bicycle craze and the insane prices are responsible
for saving the LBS from extintion. Before Lance, LBSs were about to
disappear and only Performance Bike, Nashbar and a few other mail
order entities were going to survive. Most cyclists were committed to
the sport, not too wealthy, bought their stuff online and fixed their
stuff themselves. They went to the LBS once a year, for a few tubes
and tires and pair of shorts and a Jersey. After Lance won a few
tours, cycling became the new golf. Doctors, Lawyers, CEOs and other
people with six figure salaries and above started showing up to the
weekend rides with the latests equipment and bikes. They upgrade bikes
annually, only wear Assos, Castelli and other hi priced equipment,
don't fix flats and have their bikes maintained every month or so.
They also need a local shop to maintain their equipment. Thx to this
craze, local LBSs have gotten a new life. Bicycling and other
publications are directed at them.
I have a few friends who quit the LBS bussiness right before Lance.
Others were hardly surviving until the Lance craze hit the market.
Now, they are all doing great and can survive on the LBS bussiness.
For those of us who know and feel that a bike for less than $1,000
will ride just a s nice as the $8,000 bike, we can still get cheap
stuff. Recently I bought a gorgeous, brand new, Specialized lugged
road frame and fork for $150. I switched all my campy veloce parts to
the frame and I am riding a gorgeous, bright red, lugged steed that
cost me some change. I am still delighted to show up to the weekend
ride and see 20 people ready to ride and 15 of them are six figure and
more, earning professionals, each with a bike that is worth at least
$4,000.
I still show up at the bike shops regularly, but now it is more to
chat with the owners w/o feeling guilty about not purchasing anything
except for the occassional tube which they often let me have for free.
We laugh thinking that their survival used to depend on people like me
and this other cyclist who rode a specialized carbon epic for 15 year
and a gazillion miles until the frame broke. Then he switched to a
used ti bike that he will probably ride until hell freeces over.
At a little hole on the wall bike shop strategically located at the
gathering point for cyclists weekend rides I chat with the owner.
There are no bikes on sale since he only takes custom orders. There
are several Orbeas, Issacs, Colnagos, and other European branded
carbon, campy equipped bikes waiting for some sort of repair, upgrade
or maintenace. He'll be abe to charge cyclists $100 or above for
whatever he does to the bikes and they will pay happily. His dad,
still takes department store bike and kids bikes, and changes flats,
aligns rims and maintains bikes for less than $50.
Andres
Peter Cole
>>>>> I used to spend hours browsing bike shops for components and
>>>>> accessories. Now I am in and out in a matter of minutes.<<<<
>
> My recent trip to the lbs to buy a frame pump is a good example of this. I
> just needed something to pump some air and I know that none of the mini
> pumps out there are very good. The teenage clerk on the floor engaged me in
> an impromptu mini clinic about this pump and that pump and I almost got
> sucked into buying a $45 model that could barely make my hair blow when I
> pumped it. In the end, I walked out and drove to Target, where I bought a
> ten dollar Schwinn mini pump that blows like a wind tunnel with each stroke.
A good bike shop can save you lots of money, particularly when you're
not very knowledgeable about cycling or cycling gear. You usually pay a
premium, but if you're getting good advice, and perhaps some
instruction, it's often well worth it. Another important consideration
is the shop handling warranty issues for you. Finally, for products that
require some set up (like bikes), a bike shop's services can make a huge
difference, even with identical products.
It's easy to go through several $10 pumps before you finally buy the
more expensive one. In the end you'll wind up spending more & enduring a
lot of frustration.
> Cycling will never catch on with the mass market as long as there's snobbery
> in all the magazines and bike shops that tries to convince the average
> person that nothing below a $1,000 bike and a $150 helmet is worth a damn.
Bike shops often don't make enough on less expensive bikes to make them
attractive to sell. If the profit on a sale is small, the total cost of
the sale must be kept correspondingly small in order to make any profit.
That doesn't leave much for bike tweaking, spending time with the
customer, hiring experienced people, supporting the customer
post-sale... stuff like that. If you know exactly what you want and have
the skill to set up, fit, adjust and repair, you don't need a bike shop
and will pay a premium for unused services. If you don't fit in that
category, you often are getting a great deal by using a (good) bike
shop, since you're getting skilled services at rates generally below
comparable trades. There's also the convenience issue, time is money,
getting exactly what you need quickly at a bike shop is also worth a
premium.
As a recreational activity, cycling is very benign, certainly compared
to a popular pastime like golf, or extremes like my neighbor who burns
$200 in gas chasing the last Atlantic tuna with a ton of boat. For a
regular and enthusiastic cyclist, a $1,000 bike will be more functional
and more reliable and generally a better value over the long run than
one substantially cheaper. There's a rapidly diminishing return on more
exotic bikes, and personally I'd prefer to have 5, $1,000 bikes than 1,
$5,000 bike, but I wouldn't say a $5,000 bike is foolish, or harmful,
especially since one day it may well become one of my $1,000 bikes.
Enthusiastic cyclists can get carried away and buy stuff that really
can't be justified by any rational process, but cycling is hardly unique
as a market in that way. Conspicuous consumption is a negative factor in
our society (and every other I know of), but cycling is so low impact in
resources to begin with, a few pounds of carbon composite or aircraft
quality titanium is a relative drop in the bucket. I don't begrudge
middle age yuppies their fantasies, they're harmless. Everybody needs a
reason to get out of bed in the morning, if it's a Madone, so what?
Better than a Hummer, bimmer, or hog.
For the person who wants to outfit a family on a budget, or only makes a
few short bike trips a year, inexpensive bikes may make more sense, but
I'll still argue for paying the bike shop premium, I don't think it's a
good idea to send novice cyclists, particularly children, out on bikes
assembled by poorly trained workers. I bought bike shop bikes for my
kids, both new and used, and sold or gave away those bikes once they
were outgrown, so the premium was spread over a very reasonable amount
of (re)use. There's always a ready market for kids bikes.
The $1,000 bike at the bike shop isn't a rip-off or an overly esoteric
toy, it's usually a well designed, well made, well prepared piece of
simple, elegant machinery that can last for many years, providing great
enjoyment and/or practical transportation. It's one of life's great
bargains.
Peter Cole
> After Lance won a few
> tours, cycling became the new golf. Doctors, Lawyers, CEOs and other
> people with six figure salaries and above started showing up to the
> weekend rides with the latests equipment and bikes. They upgrade bikes
> annually, only wear Assos, Castelli and other hi priced equipment,
> don't fix flats and have their bikes maintained every month or so.
> They also need a local shop to maintain their equipment. Thx to this
> craze, local LBSs have gotten a new life. Bicycling and other
> publications are directed at them.
> I am still delighted to show up to the weekend
> ride and see 20 people ready to ride and 15 of them are six figure and
> more, earning professionals, each with a bike that is worth at least
> $4,000.
My local weekly ride, starting from an affluent suburb (and looping
through others), is loaded with the well-heeled riding expensive bikes
(including occasionally John Kerry on his Colnago). I try not to get all
reverse snobby, though it can be a struggle. My wife went ballistic when
some well-intentioned guy suggested she might "be faster" on a "better"
bike (she rides a "city" bike that I built up from parts -- her pride
and joy "do everything" bike). When another rider asked about my new
bike, I called it a "Nashbay", and had to explain that meant I made it
from new Nashbar & used Ebay parts. One of my favorite guys to ride with
was dedicated to dump cruising, showing up for one ride on a rusty mixte
Raleigh 3-speed that he had just fished out. He stayed with the fast
group for the entire 40 mile circuit, clanking along in the pack. Point,
set and match, and pretty funny, too.
I've long since stopped discussing bikes & equipment over post-ride
lattes. Nobody wants to hear reality, especially when they've made a big
investment in a fantasy. I wasn't making friends, but I also was getting
into that cranky mindframe, you know -- everyone on better equipment or
faster than me is a poser, everyone on cheaper stuff or slower is a
Fred. Now, I just change the subject & try to live & let live. Life's
too short. Besides, after giving it some thought, I decided there's no
harm in it. If overspending on bike stuff is a vice, it's pretty small
potatoes as vices go. It's a little galling to get the occasional
condescension from the clueless, but sometimes you get the serious
question from somebody who's been riding long enough to begin to see
through the hype.
It's a common stereotype -- the new -- take your pick: fisherman, tennis
player, golfer, boater, bird hunter -- who shows up outfitted with a
small fortune in gear and no clue what to do with it, or the more
experienced "serious" participant who looks first at equipment and ranks
people accordingly (ever notice how unknown people are referred to as
"the guy on the red Madone" -- which usually leaves me still in the
dark). I guess while it reduces the camaraderie for me, it increases it
for others. Not bad, just different. What I find more detracting from
the group riding experience is the extreme competitiveness. It always
seems to peak around Tour time, I noticed the same thing playing pick-up
basketball during playoff season. Of course the worst thing is the
post-ride conversations, which I always used to look forward to, but
when they came to resemble high-end consumer focus groups I just lost
interest. I've drifted away from group rides and bike shops, to each
their own, I'm still happy, there's still just the bike and the open
road and it's summertime.
John Kane
> not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I was
> shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
> bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
>
> Has everyone gone crazy?
No, it's called inflation.
Based on a USA CPI calculator a US$700 bike in 1989 would cost US
$1191.92. in 2009 http://cpi.memphiscapital.com/Index.cfm.
Heck I can remember $0.10 cups of coffee.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Papa Tom
I can't say that I disagree. But there are very good bike shop bicycles
that get ignored because they are way less expensive than the
top-of-the-line bikes in the window. The feeling I get from the kids who
work in our local bike shop (which was once staffed by very knowledgable
grown-ups) is that their top priority is to show off how much they know
about the expensive bikes, regardless of whether a 2-3-4-$5,000 bike is
suitable for the customer. There's prestige that goes with demonstrating
your knowledge of a pricey item and the kids in my upper-income suburban
neighborhood are all into status symbols. For that reason, you've got
twelve year olds riding $2,000 bikes and leaving them out on the lawn, in
the rain, overnight.
I bought my GT Outpost from a reputable bike shop almost thirteen years ago.
I had just decided to get back into biking and I wasn't sure it was going to
last, so I bought the least expensive mountain bike in the store. I think I
paid $275. That bike now has thousands of miles on it - both off-road and
on - and has carried me safely and comfortably on several multi-day
journeys. I'd imagine a $5,000 bike might be a little lighter or more
comfortable, but would it be $4725 lighter and more comfortable?
My point is not that a Target bicycle or a $10 Schwinn pump is as good as
the same item purchased in a bike shop. My point is that maybe these items
are good ENOUGH for most people. The originator of this thread complained
that Bicycling Magazine only seems to engage those interested in top-line
bikes and accessories. I think the move toward "green" and the
unpredictable spikes in gas prices have presented a great opportunity for
manufacturers, dealers, and publications to get off the snobbery high horse
and start marketing to the average Joe and Jane again. Then, the bike shops
need to go back to hiring salespeople who are in it for the sport, not the
fashion.
Papa Tom
>>still happy, there's still just the bike and the open road and it's
>>summertime.<<<<
Amen. I didn't quite understand that this was your attitude when I
responded to another of your posts under a different heading.
I often find myself in similar situations when I'm around young musicians or
music stores. I was a professional drummer for many years and I used to be
the apple of my local music shop owner's eye. Every time I walked into that
store, I walked out with a few hundred dollars worth of stuff - mostly
depletables like sticks and drumheads. Often, I'd end up engaged in
hours-long conversations with the drum teachers and other customers about
gear. In private, I was pretty much as laid back about drum equipment then
as I am about bicycling gear now, but as the local "celebrity" drummer, I
kind of got caught up in having to let everyone know what I thought of this
piece of equipment and that. When I finally left the business in the
mid-90's, I was actually relieved not to have to read Modern Drummer and
stay on top of all the latest gear anymore. I am still friendly with the
music shop owner, but I haven't spent a dime in his store for nearly
thirteen years. When we get together, we often end up laughing about all
the young kids who hang around the shop nowadays bragging about the
expensive new guitar or drumset they own but can't play for crap.
When I replaced drumming with bicycling, I vowed that I would never get
trapped in gear envy and would never spend more than ten minutes in a bike
shop debating which tire patch kit to buy. So far, I've managed to keep my
promise and it feels damned good!
Opus
> I recently had a look at Bicycling Magazine (April 2009 issue) which I had
> not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I was
> shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
> bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
>
> Has everyone gone crazy? I got used to rather high prices once I switched to
> recumbents, but $2000 was the absolute limit for me. When I was in uprights,
> I eventually worked my way up to an $800 Trek carbon fiber, but it really
> hurt me to spend that much money on a bike. I was used to spending around
> $200 to $300. I guess these kind of bikes are now considered to be cheap and
> are only to be found at the discount stores like Wal-Mart.
Ed this is not just limited to bicycles but everything with moving
parts that comes under government regulations which is basically
everything you don't make yourself from raw stock.
You used to be able to get a VW for less than $1000, new. The average
cost for a new VW is $25,000. Bicycles have experienced less inflation
than other consumer transportation goods because they are less complex
and less regulated. Have you priced a Harley lately? Even with the
recession they're still up there in $$.
russell...@yahoo.com
> Peter:
>
> I can't say that I disagree. But there are very good bike shop bicycles
> that get ignored because they are way less expensive than the
> top-of-the-line bikes in the window. The feeling I get from the kids who
> work in our local bike shop (which was once staffed by very knowledgable
> grown-ups) is that their top priority is to show off how much they know
> about the expensive bikes, regardless of whether a 2-3-4-$5,000 bike is
> suitable for the customer. There's prestige that goes with demonstrating
> your knowledge of a pricey item and the kids in my upper-income suburban
> neighborhood are all into status symbols. For that reason, you've got
> twelve year olds riding $2,000 bikes and leaving them out on the lawn, in
> the rain, overnight.
>
> I bought my GT Outpost from a reputable bike shop almost thirteen years ago.
> I had just decided to get back into biking and I wasn't sure it was going to
> last, so I bought the least expensive mountain bike in the store. I think I
> paid $275. That bike now has thousands of miles on it - both off-road and
> on - and has carried me safely and comfortably on several multi-day
> journeys. I'd imagine a $5,000 bike might be a little lighter or more
> comfortable, but would it be $4725 lighter and more comfortable?
>
> My point is not that a Target bicycle or a $10 Schwinn pump is as good as
> the same item purchased in a bike shop. My point is that maybe these items
> are good ENOUGH for most people.
I do a fair amount of my riding on a single speed bike I pieced
together from used parts collected here and there. Less than $200
total in the bike. Built by me. Your $275 GT mountain bike with
gears sounds mighty extravagant to me. Wasteful. Why did you spend
so much on a new fancy dandy bike? A used bike from Goodwill or a
garage sale would have been just as good or likely much better. And
more "green".
Or maybe we should not give a dang what someone's bike costs or how
expensive their shorts are and maybe be content that the person is
riding a bike. I don't see any harm in that. $100 bike, $1000 bike,
$10000 bike, doesn't matter if the person is riding.
The originator of this thread complained
> that Bicycling Magazine only seems to engage those interested in top-line
> bikes and accessories. I think the move toward "green" and the
> unpredictable spikes in gas prices have presented a great opportunity for
> manufacturers, dealers, and publications to get off the snobbery high horse
> and start marketing to the average Joe and Jane again. Then, the bike shops
> need to go back to hiring salespeople who are in it for the sport, not the
> fashion.
How will a bike shop pay these supposedly good salespeople if they
just sell a few $275 bikes? Bike shops are in business to make
money. They make money by selling expensive bikes. The more
expensive the bike, the more they make. Larger profit margin. Larger
profit margins allow them to employ people and pay them a decent
salary.
Andre Jute
> When a bike shop goes out of business these days, I say good
> riddance.
Bike shops are cycling's worst enemies, next to cyclists themselves.
It is almost as if both parties decided, "There are enough cyclists
already, so let's put off these wannabes." More than half the LBS I
know are so wretched they don't deserve to survive.
Example. I decide that to speed up my recumbent trike experiments,
I'll buy a complete Giant Revive and use the entire bike from the rear
to the head tube, which includes the steering on its universal joint,
fabricating only a front axle. There's only one shop with a Revive in
Ireland. I check that they have the bike and make a special journey.
When I arrive I'm told that the bike is behind a lot of boxes and I
can see it if I come back some other time. After I made a special
journey from the country! This is for a bike they can't sell and have
on sale at "only" 800 euro or about 1125 USD. A customer in the shop,
who asks for the bike by name, and they can't be bothered to show it
to him!
Of course I'm not going back. I was willing to put up with the
inconvenience to have the bike instantly, but I won't disturb myself
twice to give business to people with that attitude. I can land a
Revive at my front door -- with better drivetrain: my fave Shimano
full-auto gears instead of SRAM's 3x9 -- from The Netherlands for less
than that! Does anyone wonder that I shop for my bikes on the
Continent?
Some LBS don't deserve to survive.
Andre Jute
Relentless rigour -- Gaius Germanicus Caesar
Peter Cole
> Peter:
>
> I can't say that I disagree. But there are very good bike shop bicycles
> that get ignored because they are way less expensive than the
> top-of-the-line bikes in the window. The feeling I get from the kids who
> work in our local bike shop (which was once staffed by very knowledgable
> grown-ups) is that their top priority is to show off how much they know
> about the expensive bikes, regardless of whether a 2-3-4-$5,000 bike is
> suitable for the customer. There's prestige that goes with demonstrating
> your knowledge of a pricey item and the kids in my upper-income suburban
> neighborhood are all into status symbols. For that reason, you've got
> twelve year olds riding $2,000 bikes and leaving them out on the lawn, in
> the rain, overnight.
>
> I bought my GT Outpost from a reputable bike shop almost thirteen years ago.
> I had just decided to get back into biking and I wasn't sure it was going to
> last, so I bought the least expensive mountain bike in the store. I think I
> paid $275. That bike now has thousands of miles on it - both off-road and
> on - and has carried me safely and comfortably on several multi-day
> journeys. I'd imagine a $5,000 bike might be a little lighter or more
> comfortable, but would it be $4725 lighter and more comfortable?
No, I'm not saying it would. It's always a difficult decision when
starting a new activity to decide what to buy and how much to spend. As
it turned out for you, spending somewhat more than $275 might have been
likely well worth it over the years and miles you've accumulated, but
there was no way of you or the bike shop knowing that at the time.
> My point is not that a Target bicycle or a $10 Schwinn pump is as good as
> the same item purchased in a bike shop. My point is that maybe these items
> are good ENOUGH for most people.
Ah, there I have to disagree. Some things may be good enough, but many
are not. Even though functional bikes have actually gotten cheaper in
the last couple of decades, there's still a minimum investment for a
safe and reliable bike. Most people don't actually ride the bikes they
buy. I've picked up many bikes either curbside or at flea markets that
were essentially "new, old stock". I just got a typical one last week, a
Fuji 12-speed from the '80's, rather nice Japanese frame and components,
local bike shop sticker, no wear on rims, pads, tires, chain or
sprockets -- never ridden. If you don't actually use a bike, the quality
is irrelevant. Not all department store bikes are junk, but even the
decent ones are assembled badly. You pretty much get what you pay for,
at least over the low & mid price range.
> The originator of this thread complained
> that Bicycling Magazine only seems to engage those interested in top-line
> bikes and accessories.
Sure, most of the glossy sports magazines are the same. The magazines
are mostly either handed out gratis to people with lots of disposable
income or purchased by enthusiasts who like equipment. Average Joes are
better off with Consumer Reports. They used to review bikes, I don't
know if they bother anymore.
> I think the move toward "green" and the
> unpredictable spikes in gas prices have presented a great opportunity for
> manufacturers, dealers, and publications to get off the snobbery high horse
> and start marketing to the average Joe and Jane again. Then, the bike shops
> need to go back to hiring salespeople who are in it for the sport, not the
> fashion.
Lots of bike vendors are trying to sell "city" bikes. It's an uphill
battle. People say they want a practical commuting bike then get seduced
by something flashier. The young bike shop dudes are often racers or
hipsters who have their set of values. Successfully using a bike to
commute to work or even run errands involves so many issues totally
unfamiliar to most Americans (how to dress, ride in traffic, fix a flat,
etc.) that bike selection is almost the least of their concerns.
There isn't much bike culture in this country. Cars came too quickly
after bikes and it never caught hold. The US cycling population is now
composed of (aging) adults who may have had brief exposure in a narrow
context in their youth, and younger folks who may have never ridden a
bike at all. It's difficult to jump start a bike culture in that
atmosphere of almost total ignorance. Of today's regular cyclists,
many/most are into narrow aspects of cycling like racing and MTB'ing,
many would never dream of commuting or running errands by bike. Of
course it has a stigma here, too: either DUI or poor immigrant. When you
go to a place where utility biking is common and has been for a long
time (Japan, Europe), you see a different kind of riding on a different
kind of bike. Like it or not, when you're selling bikes in this country
it's like selling snowblowers in equatorial Africa -- and most of them
will see about that much use. Watching new cyclists ride is like
watching Alabama natives driving in snow. We're starting from such an
abysmally low level of familiarity that getting people to basic
functionality is a huge undertaking, maybe impossible. Worse yet, we're
going backwards. Tomorrow's riders, today's youth, have less exposure to
cycling than ever. I don't think it's reasonable to lay all this at the
feet of bike makers and retailers.
Peter Cole
Even Lance said "It's not about the bike".
Peter Cole
> On Jun 10, 11:02 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
>> I recently had a look at Bicycling Magazine (April 2009 issue) which I had
>> not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I was
>> shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
>> bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
>>
>> Has everyone gone crazy? I got used to rather high prices once I switched to
>> recumbents, but $2000 was the absolute limit for me. When I was in uprights,
>> I eventually worked my way up to an $800 Trek carbon fiber, but it really
>> hurt me to spend that much money on a bike. I was used to spending around
>> $200 to $300. I guess these kind of bikes are now considered to be cheap and
>> are only to be found at the discount stores like Wal-Mart.
>> snip<
>
> Ed this is not just limited to bicycles but everything with moving
> parts that comes under government regulations which is basically
> everything you don't make yourself from raw stock.
Priced "raw stock" lately?
> You used to be able to get a VW for less than $1000, new. The average
> cost for a new VW is $25,000. Bicycles have experienced less inflation
> than other consumer transportation goods because they are less complex
> and less regulated. Have you priced a Harley lately? Even with the
> recession they're still up there in $$.
A lot depends on what you're buying and the volume it sells at.
Recumbents being one example. At the other end, the last bike I bought
complete was a MTB a couple of years ago. It was under $300, had a nice
welded and hydroformed aluminum frame, good quality suspension fork,
decent wheels, crank, brakes, shifters and tires. It was well assembled
and had reasonably high finish, and has held up well under its
worst-case intended use: fairly demanding off-road cycling.
I can compare that bike to a typical bike selling for the same dollar
amount 25 years ago that I just rescued from the trash, a lugged steel
frame, Japanese-made, Fuji 12-speed road bike. Despite 25 years of
inflation that should tilt the comparison to the Fuji, there's really no
comparison. Everything about the MTB is better. The Fuji is still a nice
enough bike, especially compared to the borrowed Mart-bike that my son
showed up on (apparently similarly priced), but MTB's are made in such
volume that production costs are really dialed down. I remember showing
that MTB to a friend (who rides $5,000 bikes), he shook his head in
amazement over what you could buy for $300. He, like me, has been buying
and riding bikes since the 60's.
Papa Tom
You'd probably enjoy a book called "A Social History of the Bicycle" by
Robert A. Smith. It came out in the seventies and has been out of print for
some time. Another member of this group found a copy online for $12 and
change. Or, see if your local library has a copy. Either way, you won't be
disappointed.
Anyway, in summary, as wishy-washy as it makes me appear to be, I agree with
everything everyone has said in this thread. I'm coming from my own place
with regard to gear, clothing, etc and it's not my intention to force my
opinions on anyone. I DO feel, however, that I represent a pretty large
classification of cyclists who, like yourself, believes that cycling is more
about the ride than "the ride." And, as the self-appointed spokesperson for
this scruffy bunch, I say don't ever let the specs of your equipment limit
how hard or how far you want to ride!
Andre Jute
> this scruffy bunch, I say don't ever let the specs of your equipment limit
> how hard or how far you want to ride!
If the fashionable, affluent group Peter described had to perform in
proportion to cost of bike or gear, heart attacks would be the more
likely result than fitness.
Andre Jute
AGE x FAR x FAST = delta x THROMBOSIS
RonSonic
>andre...@aol.com wrote:
>
> ... I also was getting
>into that cranky mindframe, you know -- everyone on better equipment or
>faster than me is a poser, everyone on cheaper stuff or slower is a
>Fred.
That is brilliant.
RonSonic
Fabrizio Mazzolini knows better, "It's about how you look on the bike."
Peter Cole
> Anyway, in summary, as wishy-washy as it makes me appear to be, I agree with
> everything everyone has said in this thread. I'm coming from my own place
> with regard to gear, clothing, etc and it's not my intention to force my
> opinions on anyone. I DO feel, however, that I represent a pretty large
> classification of cyclists who, like yourself, believes that cycling is more
> about the ride than "the ride." And, as the self-appointed spokesperson for
> this scruffy bunch, I say don't ever let the specs of your equipment limit
> how hard or how far you want to ride!
True, but my advice is to not let the reliability or functionality of
your bike, equipment or clothing limit you either.
I've done a lot of distance cycling, some in the context of organized
"brevets" where the guiding principle is self-reliance. Even if the
events weren't set up that way, just training for them means you're
often alone out in the boonies a good deal of the time. You don't want
to get stranded cheaping out <ahem> on a pump (hope that's not too
blunt). Some things aren't about price tag, snob appeal or fashion, some
things just work better than others.
When I got back into cycling after a long hiatus, I was using some old &
some handed down equipment. I didn't know how much I wanted to invest.
As my rides started taking me further afield, I realized that I was
going to have to make a minimum investment to have confidence in my
gear's safety & reliability, and comfort in my clothes. I spent more
money than I planned, but it was a functional expense, I wouldn't have
been able to ride the way I wanted without it. Nothing wrong with
frugality, but you've got to pay to play, too.
I know people who have gone cross country on $300 mountain bikes and
flannel shirts. I know a guy who got half way and bailed because his
crappy shorts gave him major saddle sores, too.
Peter Cole
Well, one guy in the group, not so affluent, just a working stiff (there
are a few), agonized for months before pulling the trigger on a new Trek
Madone. I thought he was going to kill himself. When he first got the
bike he seemed extremely troubled that it didn't improve his standing in
the group. He kept insisting it wasn't set up right, or he hadn't been
sleeping well, etc. After flogging himself for a few weeks he actually
started getting faster & moved up a few places. That made him much more
comfortable and secure in his purchase. All well and good, but his
compulsion to justify his outlay made him so aggressive he was
impossible to ride with. The dark side of buyer's remorse. I actually
wouldn't have been surprised if he had a coronary.
ti
relative.
I like to compare those prices to that of a brand-new Harley-Davidson,
which approaches $25k, and a $2k bicycle seems a LOT more reasonable.
I can own several well-built bikes for a fraction of a high-end
motorcycle's price. And while bike parts are indeed expensive, they
are still cheaper than motorcycle parts.
My favorite bike has a list of $4k. I paid much less than that and I
appreciate its well-done engineering with every ride.
Edward Dolan
"John Kane" <jrkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2fb1847-6c3a-45f2...@n19g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 10, 7:02 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
>
> I recently had a look at Bicycling Magazine (April 2009 issue) which I had
> not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I
> was
> shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
> bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
>
> Has everyone gone crazy?
>> No, it's called inflation.
>> Based on a USA CPI calculator a US$700 bike in 1989 would cost US
$1191.92. in 2009 http://cpi.memphiscapital.com/Index.cfm.
>> Heck I can remember $0.10 cups of coffee.
>> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
I wish it were as simple as inflation, but I don't think it is. I do not
recall top end bikes from 25 years ago that can compare to the prices of top
end bikes today. I think what has changed, as expressed in other posts on
this thread, is that the public for bicycles has changed. A wealthy class of
consumers now exists which do not mind spending many thousands of dollars on
a piece of recreational equipment (a toy really) provided it knocks your
eyes out.
These top end bikes seem more like jewelry to me than bikes that I would
ever ride. If I had one, I would put it in my china closet and look at it.
Nay, I would not even touch it for fear of leaving fingerprints!
ATP*
"Peter Cole" <peter...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ZzaYl.496$P5...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
You can get a lot more for your money now in that price range. Chinese
manufacturing and the revolution in low cost, efficient retailing are big
factors that lowered the cost.
RonSonic
That's sort of the trick, knowing what actually makes a difference and what you
can just go cheap on. I know I've wasted money by going too cheap on an item and
then needed to buy the one I should have in the first place. Other times it's
obvious that I've overbought and have maybe bragging rights.
>I know people who have gone cross country on $300 mountain bikes and
>flannel shirts. I know a guy who got half way and bailed because his
>crappy shorts gave him major saddle sores, too.
Ain't that the way it goes.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
wrote:
>These top end bikes seem more like jewelry
> to me than bikes that I would ever ride.
Then don't.
Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<rons...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>>When I got back into cycling after a long hiatus, I was using some old &
>>some handed down equipment. I didn't know how much I wanted to invest.
>>As my rides started taking me further afield, I realized that I was
>>going to have to make a minimum investment to have confidence in my
>>gear's safety & reliability, and comfort in my clothes. I spent more
>>money than I planned, but it was a functional expense, I wouldn't have
>>been able to ride the way I wanted without it. Nothing wrong with
>>frugality, but you've got to pay to play, too.
>
>That's sort of the trick, knowing what actually makes a difference and what you
>can just go cheap on. I know I've wasted money by going too cheap on an item and
>then needed to buy the one I should have in the first place. Other times it's
>obvious that I've overbought and have maybe bragging rights.
Yeah, same for me. Though maybe not so much the overboard - I move up
the price scale slowly.
mark cleary
applies. You can spend $10,000 on a guitar and basically buy one for
$5000 that is almost as good and may be better. You can also buy a very
good guitar at a local music store for about $400 that will be all you
ever need. If you play my handmade Hollenbeck that sold for $8k when
Bill was alive and making them you can easily tell the difference. Not
everyone needs one of these and it all depends on what you want to spend
your money on. I can buy an really nice guitar for $3000 that will be
hard to beat in any category. I ride a rode bike and run but frankly
after about $1500 they begin to be a snob appeal same as a guitar. I
can buy on line a great bike for $1500 and maybe at about $1200 on line
I can do even better money wise.
I want the best road bike I can find for $1200 so I will take all the
advice I can get. I can help you if you are buying a guitar in return if
you need information.
Mark Cleary plays Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars
Handmade http://hollenbeckguitar.com/
Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Jun 10, 7:02 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
>> I recently had a look at Bicycling Magazine (April 2009 issue) which I had
>> not looked at in over 20 years (ever since I got into recumbents) and I was
>> shocked at the high endness of it all. The issue was reviewing all the new
>> bikes and they ranged from $1000 and up, most in the $2000 to $4000 range.
>>
>> Has everyone gone crazy? I got used to rather high prices once I switched to
>> recumbents, but $2000 was the absolute limit for me. When I was in uprights,
>> I eventually worked my way up to an $800 Trek carbon fiber, but it really
>> hurt me to spend that much money on a bike. I was used to spending around
>> $200 to $300. I guess these kind of bikes are now considered to be cheap and
>> are only to be found at the discount stores like Wal-Mart.
>>
>> Bike shops appear to be catering to a small adult enthusiast market and are
>> no longer interested in the mass market. I noted in another bike shop owner
>> publication that many bike shops are now going belly up. No wonder! Anyone
>> who would spend thousands of dollars for a bike is crazy as a Minnesota
>> loon. No one needs these kind of bikes, not even professional racers.
>>
>> I used to spend hours browsing bike shops for components and accessories.
>> Now I am in and out in a matter of minutes. All I can see are the high
>> prices - for everything! However, I do see that they still have some
>> customers, all young adults who seem not to have a clue about the value of a
>> dollar. When a bike shop goes out of business these days, I say good
>> riddance.
>>
>> It is good that we have limted life spans. Otherwise, we would go insane
>> from the changes. Sometimes I think I have already gone around the bend.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>> aka
>> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>
> Hi Ed.
>
> Bicycling magazine is refered to as BUYcycling magazine for very good
> reason. I consider it an ad magazine and have not purchase it in
> years.
>
> I can remember an article in it that claimed that fifteen gears were
> totally un-needed and that ten gears were plenty. I also remember an
> article on improving the bicyc;le except that the articlt dealt with a
> tricycle.
>
> Cheers from Peter
Edward Dolan
"Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT" <usenet...@jt10000.com> wrote in
message news:1da335lbolrsvj5hp...@4ax.com...
I would like you to make me out check for $10,000 so I can get the most
expensive bike I can find. You owe me at least that much for my having put
up with all your foolishness. If you behave yourself, I may even let you
look at it every now and then. Like the little old lady from Pasadena, I
will only ride it on Sundays to and from church.
Erness Wild
Those seem to work okay. That's a lot of chain for an expensive bike.
Is that frame really sturdy enough? Looks like they skimped on metal.
I would think you'd get a lot of twisting on uneven roads.
Randall M. Kehrt wrote:
> I do admit I ride a Volae Team recumbent and that I paid big bucks for
> the bicycle. Today I rode it for two hours and a quarter at a average speed
> of 15 mph. Total distance was 34 miles. But I have to admit I get lots of
> comments about the bicycle!
Doc O'Leary
Erness Wild <ernes...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder what your bike would be like if it was front wheel drive.
It'd be something like this:
--
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, ono.com,
and probably your server, too.
Jon Bendtsen
> In article <h0um57$2lr$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Erness Wild <ernes...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder what your bike would be like if it was front wheel drive.
>
> It'd be something like this:
>
> http://www.cruzbike.com/
and it rides excelent.
Jeff Grippe
"mark cleary" <mcle...@verison.net> wrote in message
news:k1iYl.593$P5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
>I deal with super expensive high quality jazz guitars and the same applies.
>You can spend $10,000 on a guitar and basically buy one for $5000 that is
>almost as good and may be better. You can also buy a very good guitar at a
>local music store for about $400 that will be all you ever need. If you
>play my handmade Hollenbeck that sold for $8k when Bill was alive and
>making them you can easily tell the difference. Not everyone needs one of
>these and it all depends on what you want to spend your money on. I can buy
>an really nice guitar for $3000 that will be hard to beat in any category.
>I ride a rode bike and run but frankly after about $1500 they begin to be a
>snob appeal same as a guitar. I can buy on line a great bike for $1500 and
>maybe at about $1200 on line I can do even better money wise.
>
I just want something that my stubby short fingers and I can learn Barre
Chords and Jazz Chords on without quite so much pain. Futhermore, I want to
do this as someone who only plays occasionally (a few times per month). Is
that too much to ask for? Is this post off topic for this group?
RonSonic
Stubby fingers is no excuse: http://tinyurl.com/kop8ra
The issue is the practice schedule. There is an adaptive phase, fingers and
brain, you're better off even with just a few minutes a day than a rare long
session.
P. Chisholm
> Papa Tom wrote:
> >>>>> I used to spend hours browsing bike shops for components and
> >>>>> accessories. Now I am in and out in a matter of minutes.<<<<
>
> > just needed something to pump some air and I know that none of the mini
> > pumps out there are very good. The teenage clerk on the floor engaged me in
> > an impromptu mini clinic about this pump and that pump and I almost got
> > sucked into buying a $45 model that could barely make my hair blow when I
> > pumped it. In the end, I walked out and drove to Target, where I bought a
> > ten dollar Schwinn mini pump that blows like a wind tunnel with each stroke.
>
> A good bike shop can save you lots of money, particularly when you're
> not very knowledgeable about cycling or cycling gear. You usually pay a
> premium, but if you're getting good advice, and perhaps some
> instruction, it's often well worth it. Another important consideration
> is the shop handling warranty issues for you. Finally, for products that
> require some set up (like bikes), a bike shop's services can make a huge
> difference, even with identical products.
>
> It's easy to go through several $10 pumps before you finally buy the
> more expensive one. In the end you'll wind up spending more & enduring a
> lot of frustration.
>
> > Cycling will never catch on with the mass market as long as there's snobbery
> > in all the magazines and bike shops that tries to convince the average
> > person that nothing below a $1,000 bike and a $150 helmet is worth a damn.
>
> Bike shops often don't make enough on less expensive bikes to make them
> attractive to sell. If the profit on a sale is small, the total cost of
> the sale must be kept correspondingly small in order to make any profit.
> That doesn't leave much for bike tweaking, spending time with the
> customer, hiring experienced people, supporting the customer
> post-sale... stuff like that. If you know exactly what you want and have
> the skill to set up, fit, adjust and repair, you don't need a bike shop
> and will pay a premium for unused services. If you don't fit in that
> category, you often are getting a great deal by using a (good) bike
> shop, since you're getting skilled services at rates generally below
> comparable trades. There's also the convenience issue, time is money,
> getting exactly what you need quickly at a bike shop is also worth a
> premium.
>
> As a recreational activity, cycling is very benign, certainly compared
> to a popular pastime like golf, or extremes like my neighbor who burns
> $200 in gas chasing the last Atlantic tuna with a ton of boat. For a
> regular and enthusiastic cyclist, a $1,000 bike will be more functional
> and more reliable and generally a better value over the long run than
> one substantially cheaper. There's a rapidly diminishing return on more
> exotic bikes, and personally I'd prefer to have 5, $1,000 bikes than 1,
> $5,000 bike, but I wouldn't say a $5,000 bike is foolish, or harmful,
> especially since one day it may well become one of my $1,000 bikes.
>
> Enthusiastic cyclists can get carried away and buy stuff that really
> can't be justified by any rational process, but cycling is hardly unique
> as a market in that way. Conspicuous consumption is a negative factor in
> our society (and every other I know of), but cycling is so low impact in
> resources to begin with, a few pounds of carbon composite or aircraft
> quality titanium is a relative drop in the bucket. I don't begrudge
> middle age yuppies their fantasies, they're harmless. Everybody needs a
> reason to get out of bed in the morning, if it's a Madone, so what?
> Better than a Hummer, bimmer, or hog.
>
> For the person who wants to outfit a family on a budget, or only makes a
> few short bike trips a year, inexpensive bikes may make more sense, but
> I'll still argue for paying the bike shop premium, I don't think it's a
> good idea to send novice cyclists, particularly children, out on bikes
> assembled by poorly trained workers. I bought bike shop bikes for my
> kids, both new and used, and sold or gave away those bikes once they
> were outgrown, so the premium was spread over a very reasonable amount
> of (re)use. There's always a ready market for kids bikes.
>
> The $1,000 bike at the bike shop isn't a rip-off or an overly esoteric
> toy, it's usually a well designed, well made, well prepared piece of
> simple, elegant machinery that can last for many years, providing great
> enjoyment and/or practical transportation. It's one of life's great
> bargains.
We always say there are no bad bikes in bike shops, just bad bike
shops. Don't need a pro proven, overly expensive, way too light,
carbon bedecked bicycle to 'get you there'. All you need is a bicycle,
pretty much any bicycle....and a safe place to ride it.
Tom Sherman °_°
>
> We always say there are no bad bikes in bike shops, just bad bike
> shops. Don't need a pro proven, overly expensive, way too light,
> carbon bedecked bicycle to 'get you there'. All you need is a bicycle,
Even a 'bent [1]? ;)
]1] Some of which were bad designs, mostly from the 1970 to mid 1990's.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.