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indexing slipping (force SRAM)
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yirgster
May 19, 2013, 12:44:16 PM5/19/13
to
I've been having problems with my rear derailleur system where the indexing seems to be slipping on its own.
It's a SRAM force with a 10 cog cassette.
That is, shifting becomes funky and I hear that sound when I shift. I often have to over-push the paddles to get onto a larger cog. Eventually I can't get onto the largest cog at all. (This in fact caused some consternation on one steep pitch!) Other gears might skip or the cog drops down to the next smaller one.
I've dealt with this by turning the indexing barrel counter-clockwise which temporarily fixes the problem.
It's gotten worse and worse. The cable and housing were replaced last year. When this problem started a couple of months ago out of the blue in my various attempts to deal with it I've both tightened and loosened the derailleur cable.
I've never seen a problem like this before in all my years (and they are many!).
Any suggestions/help/whatever most appreciated! Thx.
It's a SRAM force with a 10 cog cassette.
That is, shifting becomes funky and I hear that sound when I shift. I often have to over-push the paddles to get onto a larger cog. Eventually I can't get onto the largest cog at all. (This in fact caused some consternation on one steep pitch!) Other gears might skip or the cog drops down to the next smaller one.
I've dealt with this by turning the indexing barrel counter-clockwise which temporarily fixes the problem.
It's gotten worse and worse. The cable and housing were replaced last year. When this problem started a couple of months ago out of the blue in my various attempts to deal with it I've both tightened and loosened the derailleur cable.
I've never seen a problem like this before in all my years (and they are many!).
Any suggestions/help/whatever most appreciated! Thx.
m-gineering
May 19, 2013, 4:33:05 PM5/19/13
to
one of them
--
/Marten
info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl
yirgster
May 19, 2013, 10:41:00 PM5/19/13
to
Thx. But do you mean the several ferrules of the housing? Otherwise the cable is clamped at the derailleur and held by the cable end blib in the lever.
Sir Ridesalot
May 20, 2013, 2:36:20 AM5/20/13
to
Index housing has the strands running the lenth of the housing not wound in a spiral like brake housing. This can put a lot of pressure from a strand onto the ferrule which eventually gets penetrated by the housing strand. Plastic ferrules are NOT recommended for index shifting and I don't know why they are supplied with housing. I always use metal ferrules.
Good luck. I hope it's just a housing ferrule issue and not a shifter parts failure.
Cheers
Andrey Tarasevich
May 20, 2013, 3:01:14 PM5/20/13
to
On 5/19/2013 7:41 PM, yirgster wrote:
> Thx. But do you mean the several ferrules of the housing? Otherwise the cable is clamped at the derailleur and held by the cable end blib in the lever.
This is not enough. The very idea of Bowden cable is that it operates
> Thx. But do you mean the several ferrules of the housing? Otherwise the cable is clamped at the derailleur and held by the cable end blib in the lever.
relative to the cable housing, not to the external superstructure (like
bicycle frame). For the bicycle cable to remain under proper tension it
has to be clamped at both ends and also it has to be properly supported
by the cable housing along curved segments. If the ferrules at the cable
hosing ends are broken, the housing will "give" (i.e. shorten) under
loads and ruin the cable tension.
This is typically a big problem with cheap OEM "tin can" ferrules on
brake cables. Braking loads rip them apart very quickly, which results
in mushy brakes.
Shifter ferrules last longer, due to lower loads, but for the very same
reason they often have even lower quality (like plastic ones). So, it is
a very good idea to use good quality metal ferrules for both brake and
shifter cable housings.
Stephen Bauman
May 20, 2013, 3:41:14 PM5/20/13
to
Check the derailleur dropout alignment. If it is not vertical, then its
in/out movement will not be consistent with the cog spacing on the
cassette.
There's a shop tool to measure this and make adjustments. However, you
can usually get by with putting an allen key in the derailleur to use as
leverage to bend the dropout.
It's usually a good idea to have a spare sacrificial dropout handy, in
case you break off the dropout in the process of adjusting it.
in/out movement will not be consistent with the cog spacing on the
cassette.
There's a shop tool to measure this and make adjustments. However, you
can usually get by with putting an allen key in the derailleur to use as
leverage to bend the dropout.
It's usually a good idea to have a spare sacrificial dropout handy, in
case you break off the dropout in the process of adjusting it.
Ian Field
May 21, 2013, 5:35:00 PM5/21/13
to
"Sir Ridesalot" <i_am_cyc...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:70d7ad60-b076-4bfb...@googlegroups.com...
later.
As I was passing Halfords anyway I nipped in to buy some.
They only had plastic ones and said its been that way for some time!
James
May 21, 2013, 6:10:46 PM5/21/13
to
The only time I had a cable break it caused weird shifting. It slowly
broke, strand by strand until there was only a coupled of strands
attached. The frayed end made the cable not move in the housing freely,
and I think the cable slowly got a bit longer as it unwound.
Anyway, mine was breaking at the clamp bolt on the rear derailleur, but
I've heard that often cables break inside the lever mechanism. In fact
a mate has broken a few on Shimano 10s systems. I don't know if SRAM is
prone to similar problems or not.
--
JS
Ian Field
May 28, 2013, 8:36:58 AM5/28/13
to
"James" <james.e...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:kngr5l$2n7$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 20/05/13 02:44, yirgster wrote:
>> I've been having problems with my rear derailleur system where the
>> indexing seems to be slipping on its own.
>>
>> It's a SRAM force with a 10 cog cassette.
>>
>> That is, shifting becomes funky and I hear that sound when I shift. I
>> often have to over-push the paddles to get onto a larger cog.
>> Eventually I can't get onto the largest cog at all. (This in fact
>> caused some consternation on one steep pitch!) Other gears might skip
>> or the cog drops down to the next smaller one.
>>
>> I've dealt with this by turning the indexing barrel counter-clockwise
>> which temporarily fixes the problem.
>>
>> It's gotten worse and worse. The cable and housing were replaced
>> last year. When this problem started a couple of months ago out of
>> the blue in my various attempts to deal with it I've both tightened
>> and loosened the derailleur cable.
>>
>> I've never seen a problem like this before in all my years (and they
>> are many!).
>>
>> Any suggestions/help/whatever most appreciated! Thx.
>>
>>
>
> Is the cable frayed inside the shifter?
>
> The only time I had a cable break it caused weird shifting. It slowly
> broke, strand by strand until there was only a coupled of strands
> attached. The frayed end made the cable not move in the housing freely,
> and I think the cable slowly got a bit longer as it unwound.
You can get individual strands break at the pinch bold - they not only
>> I've been having problems with my rear derailleur system where the
>> indexing seems to be slipping on its own.
>>
>> It's a SRAM force with a 10 cog cassette.
>>
>> That is, shifting becomes funky and I hear that sound when I shift. I
>> often have to over-push the paddles to get onto a larger cog.
>> Eventually I can't get onto the largest cog at all. (This in fact
>> caused some consternation on one steep pitch!) Other gears might skip
>> or the cog drops down to the next smaller one.
>>
>> I've dealt with this by turning the indexing barrel counter-clockwise
>> which temporarily fixes the problem.
>>
>> It's gotten worse and worse. The cable and housing were replaced
>> last year. When this problem started a couple of months ago out of
>> the blue in my various attempts to deal with it I've both tightened
>> and loosened the derailleur cable.
>>
>> I've never seen a problem like this before in all my years (and they
>> are many!).
>>
>> Any suggestions/help/whatever most appreciated! Thx.
>>
>>
>
> Is the cable frayed inside the shifter?
>
> The only time I had a cable break it caused weird shifting. It slowly
> broke, strand by strand until there was only a coupled of strands
> attached. The frayed end made the cable not move in the housing freely,
> and I think the cable slowly got a bit longer as it unwound.
unravel anf make the inner get longer, the loose strand swells out
diameter-wise increasing cable friction.
As long as you keep the cable adjusted, shifting down is OK but shifting up
can take a few turns of the pedal before the chain moves to the intended
sproket.
As it gets worse, you have to change up 2 gears and click back one to change
up one gear.
If the inner frays at the lever/grip the separated strand can act like a
free-wheel pawl if it catches on the housing, that can effectively lock out
some of the higher gears.
thirty-six
May 28, 2013, 1:24:20 PM5/28/13
to
the inner wire with lumplead or molybdenum disulphide. If you have
it, a PTFE aerosol will do (about the only thing it's useful for) and
can be used to blast clear a housing.
Ian Field
May 28, 2013, 2:45:49 PM5/28/13
to
"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7f65d350-1abd-4c90...@y5g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
courses".
The one I can actually get hold of ATM is GT85 - like WD40 but *MUCH*
better, although I certainly wouldn't use it as a general lubricant.
Using slick 50 neat is very good for some things, I suppose you could run
some down the cable outer before inserting the inner.
I tried doing my front brake cable with a screw-piston type cable oiler full
of Finnish-line PTFE grease, but the cable end ferrules arent crimped on
like motorcycle ones - the cable kept squeezing out of the compression
gland.
When it stops raining long enough - I need to do my gear cable and back
brake cable, I'm thinking of using a glue applicator syringe to pump grease
through the cable outer before inserting the inner.
Are the cable outers lined with low friction plastic tube - or bare steel?
It makes a difference whether PTFE or moly grease is best.
thirty-six
May 28, 2013, 3:08:49 PM5/28/13
to
On May 28, 7:45 pm, "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
That's what i was thinking of. made a very clean chain lubricant,
that didn't, in my experience. Would never dare use it on ball
bearings but did try it on brakes and gears. For the internal gear
wire it was adequate. Under bottom bracket, not so. Also not good
for nylon-lined brake housings.
>
> Using slick 50 neat is very good for some things, I suppose you could run
> some down the cable outer before inserting the inner.
Put it on a cloth and apply it, and rub it in, to all the bending
areas of the inner.
than an application of moly at the bends. This will give more life to
the cables as it takes longer for them to fatigue.
winter, the greasse wil tend to bind the cable and the springs will
not return calipers fully so brake drag occurs.
contain a high pressure dry lubricant, whixh is why adding to it gives
no actual benefit, but lubing the inner wire generally does.
wire. there is not enough heat generated for a loaded grease to be
effective and it may present problems later due to dripping during
warm weather or seizing during cold weather.
wrote:
> "thirty-six" <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
that didn't, in my experience. Would never dare use it on ball
bearings but did try it on brakes and gears. For the internal gear
wire it was adequate. Under bottom bracket, not so. Also not good
for nylon-lined brake housings.
>
> Using slick 50 neat is very good for some things, I suppose you could run
> some down the cable outer before inserting the inner.
areas of the inner.
>
> I tried doing my front brake cable with a screw-piston type cable oiler full
> of Finnish-line PTFE grease, but the cable end ferrules arent crimped on
> like motorcycle ones - the cable kept squeezing out of the compression
> gland.
The service conditions of such cables do not generally require more
> I tried doing my front brake cable with a screw-piston type cable oiler full
> of Finnish-line PTFE grease, but the cable end ferrules arent crimped on
> like motorcycle ones - the cable kept squeezing out of the compression
> gland.
than an application of moly at the bends. This will give more life to
the cables as it takes longer for them to fatigue.
>
> When it stops raining long enough - I need to do my gear cable and back
> brake cable, I'm thinking of using a glue applicator syringe to pump grease
> through the cable outer before inserting the inner.
I don't have any particularly good memories of the practise. In the
> When it stops raining long enough - I need to do my gear cable and back
> brake cable, I'm thinking of using a glue applicator syringe to pump grease
> through the cable outer before inserting the inner.
winter, the greasse wil tend to bind the cable and the springs will
not return calipers fully so brake drag occurs.
>
> Are the cable outers lined with low friction plastic tube - or bare steel?
Of those i have used, steel. I believe that some outers already
> Are the cable outers lined with low friction plastic tube - or bare steel?
contain a high pressure dry lubricant, whixh is why adding to it gives
no actual benefit, but lubing the inner wire generally does.
>
> It makes a difference whether PTFE or moly grease is best.
rub your Molyslip / Slick50 or graphite directly into the inner
> It makes a difference whether PTFE or moly grease is best.
wire. there is not enough heat generated for a loaded grease to be
effective and it may present problems later due to dripping during
warm weather or seizing during cold weather.
Ian Field
May 28, 2013, 4:35:37 PM5/28/13
to
news:07420c70-e587-4d8a...@h5g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
Actually I find a good fill of grease has the opposite effect by keeping
rain water out which would freeze solid in winter.
As yet i've never seen PTFE or moly grease dripping on a hot sunny day.
The moly grease is sold as high temperature CV wheel grease for cars.
rain water out which would freeze solid in winter.
As yet i've never seen PTFE or moly grease dripping on a hot sunny day.
The moly grease is sold as high temperature CV wheel grease for cars.
thirty-six
May 28, 2013, 6:27:47 PM5/28/13
to
On May 28, 9:35 pm, "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com>
frozen rain water usually = snow or hail
I never found it a problem. The bikes I rode in difficult conditions
of dropping temperatures, where water may later freeze as night falls,
had the housings all facing down. Never had water freeze in cables
but have had grease become stiff.
>
> As yet i've never seen PTFE or moly grease dripping on a hot sunny day.
I was thinking of calcium grease which is very tenacious, and suitable
for wet conditions, until warmed up.
advantage on my bikes.
I never found it a problem. The bikes I rode in difficult conditions
of dropping temperatures, where water may later freeze as night falls,
had the housings all facing down. Never had water freeze in cables
but have had grease become stiff.
>
> As yet i've never seen PTFE or moly grease dripping on a hot sunny day.
for wet conditions, until warmed up.
>
> The moly grease is sold as high temperature CV wheel grease for cars.
I've not used that as a cable fill and it wouldn't provide any
> The moly grease is sold as high temperature CV wheel grease for cars.
advantage on my bikes.
Ian Field
May 29, 2013, 9:13:16 AM5/29/13
to
news:df3b8a30-07c5-4c7a...@bz1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
In my part of the UK; winter is full of several day spells of torrential
rain followed by a cold snap.
The water gets in everywhere - on the motorcycle the clutch cable was most
vulnerable, if I could move the lever at all the windchill on the way would
freeze it up once I got underway.
On the bicycle, the twistgrip gives the gear cable some protection from
ingress, just like the motorcycle throttle.
Unless I pump them with grease in autumn - both brake cables get full of
rainwater and freeze during the cold snaps.
rain followed by a cold snap.
The water gets in everywhere - on the motorcycle the clutch cable was most
vulnerable, if I could move the lever at all the windchill on the way would
freeze it up once I got underway.
On the bicycle, the twistgrip gives the gear cable some protection from
ingress, just like the motorcycle throttle.
Unless I pump them with grease in autumn - both brake cables get full of
rainwater and freeze during the cold snaps.
Message has been deleted
Ian Field
May 29, 2013, 2:31:47 PM5/29/13
to
"Phil W Lee" <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote in message
news:6b8cq89cdnjgqtlqh...@4ax.com...
> "Ian Field" <gangprob...@ntlworld.com> considered Wed, 29 May
> Heathrow to Marks Tey (near Colchester) in pre-M25 days on a cold,
> wet, Friday afternoon in January, in the rush hour, with no clutch on
> a Z650 (with full luggage, just to keep things interesting).
> Right round London's notorious North Circular Road. Yipeee!
> I was lucky - as a fairly regular customer at the Kawasaki dealer, the
> parts guy had hung on a bit past closing time to meet me. The next
> nearest place with a Z650 B clutch cable in stock was Manchester,
> iirc.
> Ater that experience, I fitted a spare clutch cable alongside the
> in-use one, pumped full of 90 grade oil and with the ends securely
> wrapped
If you are anywhere near an agricultural engineer, tractors use 90W135 in
the diff - but there's much to be said for friction modifier lubricants like
PTFE or molybdenum.
If you ever find on of those old top loader washing machines, the gearbox
that makes the paddle thing turn back & forth contains oil like treacle.
thirty-six
May 29, 2013, 3:21:37 PM5/29/13
to
On May 29, 5:27 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> considered Wed, 29 May
> that was enough to ensure I never did :-)
> downwards, as that makes them self-draining.
> Sadly, that is rarely the case with rear gear cable housings, although
> they may sometimes be encouraged to curve the right way to achieve a
> slight downward slope even at the chainstay stop.
The bottom brackets on my bicycles are below the wheel axles, the
chainstay cable stop leaves the opening of the housing facing mostly
forwards and down (a little). the end of the housing is neatly
finished and in a metal ferrule. One bike has the stop above the
chainstay with heavy duty Bowden housing from a commercial vehicle ,
the more recent bike has the modern long lay casing below the
chainstay. I've never had cause to worry about water ingress with
either.
> A cigarette lighter held briefly under the cable (NOT the outer casing
> - it'll melt the plastic sheathing) will conduct enough heat along the
> cable to melt the ice, although that is only a very short term
> solution.
>
> That's the one thing that WD40 is useful for - blasted through the
> outer from the other end (or it will just push the water further in to
> the outer) it will work as intended - as a water displacer/disperser.
> You need to follow it up with a proper lubricant though, and most of
> them are fairly hydrophobic.
> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> considered Wed, 29 May
> 2013 14:13:16 +0100 the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BTDT, and I still blame that for the epic ride I had to undertake from
> Heathrow to Marks Tey (near Colchester) in pre-M25 days on a cold,
> wet, Friday afternoon in January, in the rush hour, with no clutch on
> a Z650 (with full luggage, just to keep things interesting).
> Right round London's notorious North Circular Road. Yipeee!
> I was lucky - as a fairly regular customer at the Kawasaki dealer, the
> parts guy had hung on a bit past closing time to meet me. The next
> nearest place with a Z650 B clutch cable in stock was Manchester,
> iirc.
> Ater that experience, I fitted a spare clutch cable alongside the
> in-use one, pumped full of 90 grade oil and with the ends securely
> wrapped - all ready to swap in if I had another failure. Of course,
> Heathrow to Marks Tey (near Colchester) in pre-M25 days on a cold,
> wet, Friday afternoon in January, in the rush hour, with no clutch on
> a Z650 (with full luggage, just to keep things interesting).
> Right round London's notorious North Circular Road. Yipeee!
> I was lucky - as a fairly regular customer at the Kawasaki dealer, the
> parts guy had hung on a bit past closing time to meet me. The next
> nearest place with a Z650 B clutch cable in stock was Manchester,
> iirc.
> Ater that experience, I fitted a spare clutch cable alongside the
> in-use one, pumped full of 90 grade oil and with the ends securely
> that was enough to ensure I never did :-)
>
>
>
> >On the bicycle, the twistgrip gives the gear cable some protection from
> >ingress, just like the motorcycle throttle.
>
> >Unless I pump them with grease in autumn - both brake cables get full of
> >rainwater and freeze during the cold snaps.
>
> I've never had a problem if both ends of every section of outer point
>
>
> >On the bicycle, the twistgrip gives the gear cable some protection from
> >ingress, just like the motorcycle throttle.
>
> >Unless I pump them with grease in autumn - both brake cables get full of
> >rainwater and freeze during the cold snaps.
>
> downwards, as that makes them self-draining.
> Sadly, that is rarely the case with rear gear cable housings, although
> they may sometimes be encouraged to curve the right way to achieve a
> slight downward slope even at the chainstay stop.
The bottom brackets on my bicycles are below the wheel axles, the
chainstay cable stop leaves the opening of the housing facing mostly
forwards and down (a little). the end of the housing is neatly
finished and in a metal ferrule. One bike has the stop above the
chainstay with heavy duty Bowden housing from a commercial vehicle ,
the more recent bike has the modern long lay casing below the
chainstay. I've never had cause to worry about water ingress with
either.
> A cigarette lighter held briefly under the cable (NOT the outer casing
> - it'll melt the plastic sheathing) will conduct enough heat along the
> cable to melt the ice, although that is only a very short term
> solution.
>
> That's the one thing that WD40 is useful for - blasted through the
> outer from the other end (or it will just push the water further in to
> the outer) it will work as intended - as a water displacer/disperser.
> You need to follow it up with a proper lubricant though, and most of
> them are fairly hydrophobic.
John B.
May 29, 2013, 9:04:29 PM5/29/13
to
--
Cheers,
John B.
Ian Field
May 30, 2013, 10:31:44 AM5/30/13
to
"John B." <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:va9dq899mbbqcpno2...@4ax.com...
with the acid-rain.
thirty-six
May 30, 2013, 12:05:43 PM5/30/13
to
On May 30, 3:31 pm, "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> "John B." <slocom...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >>"Phil W Lee" <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:6b8cq89cdnjgqtlqh...@4ax.com...
> >>> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> considered Wed, 29 May
Hmm, must check car's clutch cable, 15 years must be pushing it, eh?
wrote:
> "John B." <slocom...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:va9dq899mbbqcpno2...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 29 May 2013 19:31:47 +0100, "Ian Field"
> > <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> news:va9dq899mbbqcpno2...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 29 May 2013 19:31:47 +0100, "Ian Field"
>
> >>"Phil W Lee" <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:6b8cq89cdnjgqtlqh...@4ax.com...
> >>> "Ian Field" <gangprobing.al...@ntlworld.com> considered Wed, 29 May
Ian Field
May 30, 2013, 4:55:20 PM5/30/13
to
news:70d955e5-2552-4a94...@l3g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
What's that got to do with the price of bogroll.
thirty-six
May 30, 2013, 6:20:48 PM5/30/13
to
Dan O
May 31, 2013, 2:13:35 AM5/31/13
to
<retrogrouch curmudgeon mode>...
But anyway, like I was saying in that other thread - about having
throown chains clear *off* the sprockets entirely - every which way
and too many times - ... but that was when I was a kid - before I ever
had a "ten-speed" (that's five in the back and two in the front) os my
own.
Sorry - this station amy now resume it's regularly... no - it's
*intended* programming.
Dan O
May 31, 2013, 2:14:33 AM5/31/13
to
>
> kippers!
... and beer - somebody don't forget the beer! :-)
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