Question regarding spokes on high-profile wheels
Förster vom Silberwald
year old road bicycle (F. Moser steal frame and Mirage set-up). In the
last couple of months I rode around 5000 km on it.
However, 1000 km ago a spoke at the rear high-profile wheel from
Camapgnolo "Zonada" broke. A mechnic replaced it.
Last weekend again a spoke broke and I went to a big dealer. I asked
him whether he would like to replace all of the 16 spokes by newer
ones.
He told me it wouldn't make sense that he starts to replace them. The
best what I can do in my situation is to send (though 10 years old but
fairly new as already mentioned) it to Campagnolo and they should
replace the spokes because he will fail to give tension to spokes
proper.
My problem: at one side the spokes are fairly stiff but at the other
side some spokes are loose though the rear wheel is perfectly trued.
Is it true that one cannot go to replace all the spokes at high
profile wheels?
Thanks,
Schneewittchen
nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.fr
Förster vom Silberwald wrote:
> My problem: at one side the spokes are fairly stiff but at the other
> side some spokes are loose though the rear wheel is perfectly trued.
I understand that, eg, spoke on the upper half of the wheel are firm,
and those of the lower half are loose?
Solution : buy a new wheel.
It seems the rim is slightly bent or out of round, this is hard to
repair efficiently - and if not repaired you will broke spoke after
spoke, and you don't have too many on that wheel do you?
If those of the right (gear) side are firmer than those of the left
side, it is much more normal! The difference in tension may be up to 2
times... Or you may check the wheel dish (centering of the rim in the
frame)?
Förster vom Silberwald
Hello:
Btw: my weight shouldn't be the problem (180 centimeters, and 72
kilograms)
Spokes on the gear side (all of them) are much stiffer than the spokes
on the other side.
However, on the other (not gear side) side some spokes are firm and
some are not so firm.
I always thought that even if spokes on the not-gear side are not that
firm that all should have the same "firmness" at least for one of
the sides.
I am quite sure the rim is not bent or out of round.
I cannot buy quickly yet another wheel-set because me gearing is old
Campagnolo 8x (53/39 and 13-26).
Art Harris
> He told me it wouldn't make sense that he starts to replace them. The
> best what I can do in my situation is to send (though 10 years old but
> fairly new as already mentioned) it to Campagnolo and they should
> replace the spokes because he will fail to give tension to spokes
> proper.
The tension in a 16 spoke wheel is so high that a fixture is required
to unload the spokes so that they can be adjusted.
> My problem: at one side the spokes are fairly stiff but at the other
> side some spokes are loose though the rear wheel is perfectly trued.
The right side spokes (in a rear wheel) will have much more tension
than left side spokes. That is normal. But all the spokes on one side
should have similar tension.
If you've broken two spokes in a short time, it's probably best to
replace them all. Or better yet, switch to 32 or 36 spoke wheels.
Art Harris
Qui si parla Campagnolo
Not true but spokes break because of a deformed rim, not because
something is wrong with the spokes....
>
> Thanks,
> Schneewittchen
nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.fr
Förster vom Silberwald wrote:
> However, on the other (not gear side) side some spokes are firm and
> some are not so firm.
>
> I always thought that even if spokes on the not-gear side are not that
> firm that all should have the same "firmness" at least for one of
> the sides.
Yes you're right!
Such an unevenness of tension *with a true wheel* does usually indicate
a bent rim.
> I cannot buy quickly yet another wheel-set because me gearing is old
> Campagnolo 8x (53/39 and 13-26).
I'd say you would be able to mount your 8sp cassette on a 9sp freehub -
I'm sure of that with Shimano, but don't know Campy enough.
jim beam
> F�rster vom Silberwald wrote:
>> He told me it wouldn't make sense that he starts to replace them. The
>> best what I can do in my situation is to send (though 10 years old but
>> fairly new as already mentioned) it to Campagnolo and they should
>> replace the spokes because he will fail to give tension to spokes
>> proper.
>
> The tension in a 16 spoke wheel is so high that a fixture is required
> to unload the spokes so that they can be adjusted.
that's not true! tension is same ballpark as a normal wheel. and you
can adjust them no problem. you're propagating jobstian myth there art.
>
>> My problem: at one side the spokes are fairly stiff but at the other
>> side some spokes are loose though the rear wheel is perfectly trued.
>
> The right side spokes (in a rear wheel) will have much more tension
> than left side spokes. That is normal. But all the spokes on one side
> should have similar tension.
>
> If you've broken two spokes in a short time, it's probably best to
> replace them all. Or better yet, switch to 32 or 36 spoke wheels.
again, entirely unnecessary. 36 spoke wheels date from the time of
flexible low-pro rims and poor fatigue-prone spokes. today, higher
profile rims and much more fatigue resistant spokes make high spoke
count wheels complete overkill.
>
> Art Harris
>
jim beam
chain between the spokes and the cassette? make sure the rim is true,
then have the wheel re-spoked with a good brand like sapim or d.t.
nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.fr
> > The tension in a 16 spoke wheel is so high that a fixture is required
> > to unload the spokes so that they can be adjusted.
>
> that's not true! tension is same ballpark as a normal wheel.
I have no precise data about it, but would have thought that the sum of
the spokes tension in a wheel should remain of the same order of
magnitude to prevent spoke slackening? That would imply that the spoke
tension of a 16-spokes wheel should be twice as much as the one of a
32-spokes one?
> > If you've broken two spokes in a short time, it's probably best to
> > replace them all. Or better yet, switch to 32 or 36 spoke wheels.
>
> again, entirely unnecessary. 36 spoke wheels date from the time of
> flexible low-pro rims and poor fatigue-prone spokes. today, higher
> profile rims and much more fatigue resistant spokes make high spoke
> count wheels complete overkill.
Mechanical conception is always a compromise, and I'd say that if
36-spokes wheels may be overbuilt for sportive purposes, 16-spokes one
might in the other hand still be underbuilt for someone wishing more
durability than performance...
Is that diplomatic enough ;o) ?
t
To OP : Freundlichen Grüssen von den (französichen ;o) Zwergen,
Nicolas
lime...@gmail.com
shops employ children (teenaged children) to do stuff like this, so the
results may vary.
Wheel building is not brain surgery and it is a good skill to learn if
you ride a bicycle.
You might find this article interesting:-
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
Hope this helps you.
Lewis.
******
carl...@comcast.net
>jim beam wrote:
>> > The tension in a 16 spoke wheel is so high that a fixture is required
>> > to unload the spokes so that they can be adjusted.
>>
>> that's not true! tension is same ballpark as a normal wheel.
>
>I have no precise data about it, but would have thought that the sum of
>the spokes tension in a wheel should remain of the same order of
>magnitude to prevent spoke slackening? That would imply that the spoke
>tension of a 16-spokes wheel should be twice as much as the one of a
>32-spokes one?
[snip]
Dear Nicolas,
The Campagnolo site doesn't seem to list any recommended spoke
tension, but elsewhere the Zonda spoke tension seems fairly normal:
front rear chain-side
Campagnolo Eurus Wheel 60-80 Kgf 95-115 Kgf
Campagnolo Neutron Wheel 60-70 Kgf 120-140 Kgf
Campagnolo Hyperon Wheel 60-80 Kgf 110-130 Kgf
Campagnolo Proton Wheel 50-70 Kgf 120-140 Kgf
Campagnolo Scirocco Wheel 60-80 Kgf 85-105 Kgf
Campagnolo Zonda tangent 60-80 Kgf
Zonda radial 75-95 Kgf 90-110 Kgf
http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=51
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Ron Ruff
> I have no precise data about it, but would have thought that the sum of
> the spokes tension in a wheel should remain of the same order of
> magnitude to prevent spoke slackening? That would imply that the spoke
> tension of a 16-spokes wheel should be twice as much as the one of a
> 32-spokes one?
Not really. The stiffness of the rim is a big factor, and the low spoke
count wheels have 25mm+ deep rims that are rather heavy... at least the
reasonably durable models. Also, they generally use thin ultra butted
spokes which will "stretch" about twice as much as a 2.0mm spoke at the
same tension... so double the motion would be necessary before they
went slack.
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>>> The tension in a 16 spoke wheel is so high that a fixture is required
>>> to unload the spokes so that they can be adjusted.
>> that's not true! tension is same ballpark as a normal wheel.
>
> I have no precise data about it, but would have thought that the sum of
> the spokes tension in a wheel should remain of the same order of
> magnitude to prevent spoke slackening?
why? spoke slackening depends on rim deformation. if you have a higher
profile rim, it's stiffer, therefore "flat spots" less at the loading
point, therefore doesn't need excess tension to stop spokes going flat.
> That would imply that the spoke
> tension of a 16-spokes wheel should be twice as much as the one of a
> 32-spokes one?
why is r.b.t is poisoned with this totally spoke-centric view of a
wheel? we can't ignore what happens with the rim - it's kind of a
critical component in a wheel.
>
>
>>> If you've broken two spokes in a short time, it's probably best to
>>> replace them all. Or better yet, switch to 32 or 36 spoke wheels.
>> again, entirely unnecessary. 36 spoke wheels date from the time of
>> flexible low-pro rims and poor fatigue-prone spokes. today, higher
>> profile rims and much more fatigue resistant spokes make high spoke
>> count wheels complete overkill.
>
> Mechanical conception is always a compromise, and I'd say that if
> 36-spokes wheels may be overbuilt for sportive purposes, 16-spokes one
> might in the other hand still be underbuilt for someone wishing more
> durability than performance...
> Is that diplomatic enough ;o) ?
no it's not - it's just nebulous waffle making no account of the
engineering or the materials from which a wheel is made. it's
ridiculous to continue propagation of misplaced fear and ignorance.
>
>
> t
> To OP : Freundlichen Gr�ssen von den (franz�sichen ;o) Zwergen,
> Nicolas
>
carl...@comcast.net
wrote:
>nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.Fr wrote:
[snip]
>> Mechanical conception is always a compromise, and I'd say that if
>> 36-spokes wheels may be overbuilt for sportive purposes, 16-spokes one
>> might in the other hand still be underbuilt for someone wishing more
>> durability than performance...
>> Is that diplomatic enough ;o) ?
>
>no it's not - it's just nebulous waffle making no account of the
>engineering or the materials from which a wheel is made. it's
>ridiculous to continue propagation of misplaced fear and ignorance.
Dear Jobst,
Sometimes your tone obscures the point that you--
Oops!
Dear Jim,
Er, never mind. I mistook you for someone else for a moment.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
jim beam
er, thanks for that! [i think.]
nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.fr
jim beam wrote:
> nikojorj_ja...@yahoo.Fr wrote:
> > That would imply that the spoke
> > tension of a 16-spokes wheel should be twice as much as the one of a
> > 32-spokes one?
>
> why is r.b.t is poisoned with this totally spoke-centric view of a
> wheel? we can't ignore what happens with the rim - it's kind of a
> critical component in a wheel.
Interessing discusion!
It has made me aware that my aforementioned ideas were effectively
driven by one belief : that the lighter the rim, the better the wheel
performance.
I do understand better now how low-spoke-count wheels work, thanks all!
Greetings from France,
Nicolas
Förster vom Silberwald
Hello:
I have no actual figure right yet at my hand, but note that my Zonda
wheels feature "thick" spokes. Likely 10 years ago Zonda wheels were
different.
I hope I haven't given any wrong figures but it could be also the case
that wheels feature 20 spokes. I will have to count them next time.
Today a repaiur man told me if in case a spoke will break again he will
try to replace all the spokes next time. Replacing should be easy since
spokes are ordered "radially".
Schneewittchen
Förster vom Silberwald
Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Not true but spokes break because of a deformed rim, not because
> something is wrong with the spokes....
Hello: As I said the 10 year old F.Moser road bicycle has been never
riden by the 70 year old retired person from whom I bought the bike for
EUR 420,- (around $ 450,-).
I bought it last winter. In the meantime the bike has 5000 kilometers
on its side.
One dealer explained me even if the bike is fairly new 10 years of
storing the bike in a room will also "weaken" the spoke its faitigure.
I like the steal-frame and its comfort. I put also in some money in the
bike: newer dual-pivot brakes "Veloce", new sprokets (the original were
53/39 and 13-23, but I live in a mountainian area and often need
something like 13-26), new tires. I was happy to obtain a new Record
13-26 because my first turn with a Marchisio set-up did not work well.
I hope the bike will last at least for some other 15 000 kilometers.
Btw: I am not after performance with my wheels. It is just that it was
the original set-up.
Schneewittchen
Förster vom Silberwald
lime...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, you say a mechanic replaced a spoke for you. A lot of bicycle
> shops employ children (teenaged children) to do stuff like this, so the
> results may vary.
>
> Wheel building is not brain surgery and it is a good skill to learn if
> you ride a bicycle.
Hello: I am quite aware of this. However, the bicycle shop were I used
to bring my bike knows its bussines I guess. I know also the mechanic
and he also rides races.
I have some confidence in the shop since they are one of the few who
will take my Campagnolo bike. I know some shops which have told me they
will not repair anything Campagnolo because they only have experience
with Shimano.
Schneewittchen
Art Harris
> As I said the 10 year old F.Moser road bicycle has been never
> riden by the 70 year old retired person from whom I bought the bike for
> EUR 420,- (around $ 450,-).
Not bad!
> One dealer explained me even if the bike is fairly new 10 years of
> storing the bike in a room will also "weaken" the spoke its faitigure.
I don't believe that. Fatigue comes from many cycles of loading and
unloading the spokes, and even then only if they are near their yield
point (usually at the elbow). On a well-built wheel, spokes should last
many thousands of miles of riding. And an eternity in storage.
Art Harris