Le Tour: How do these guys do it?
Ablang
I heard somewhere that they are the best 1% of the best 1% in the
world. Some people say that these are the best athletes of any sport.
For Le Tour de France, they do 21 stages in 23 days. Each stage
averages about 120 miles and takes about 4-4.5 hours to do. They
experience pain and go uphill and downhill, ride through strong winds,
wet roads, and get injured from falls (broken helmets, skinned knees
and/or elbows) or other riders. They get less than 24 hours of rest,
and then they have to do it all over again.
Wouldn't their legs or whole body be sore the next day? Are these guys
on drugs or something? I really admire their athleticism, but their
level is unreal.
Hank
> Are these guys
> on drugs or something?
Have you not been paying attention?
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Ab,
A) Yes, they are amazing athletes.
B) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
raa...@gmail.com
you get used to it. it is amazing what your body can do when you start
to push the boundaries. but you have to try
Tom Kunich
news:d2f4d22e-eb3a-4fa3...@z26g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
What's really nice is a guy that probably couldn't do a single century
telling others that it takes drugs to race.
Lou Holtman
What has riding centuries to do with racing?
Lou
Lou Holtman
ehh.. I meant Pro racing.
Lou
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tom,
Vague pronouns like "a guy" invite specific replies.
The most famous "guy" who told everyone that it takes drugs to race
won the Tour de France five times between 1957 and 1964.
Anquetil could probably have done a single century, even without the
amphetamines that he said that everyone needed in order to compete.
Anquetil argued that amphetamines should be allowed, lest riders be
tempted to use more dangerous drugs.
Tom Simpson declined to comment.
***
Of course, "most" pros have not been proven to be doping.
Only 3 out of 8 pros and only 1 out of 4 amateurs tested positive when
testing began in Belgium:
"The [Olympic] tests - inspections for needle marks but also urine
analyses - were the first in international sport. They were followed
in November 1964 by the first national anti-doping law, which entered
legislation in Belgium in April 1965. Neighbouring France passed a
similar law in July of the same year. Tests in Belgium caught 37.5 per
cent of professionals and almost one in four amateurs."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
Hmmm . . . so 37.5% of pros were caught doping by the first crude
testing _after_ being warned that they would be checked for needle
marks and drugs in their urine.
It's hard to say how many of the other pros were models of purity or
just slightly smarter than bricks.
***
But perhaps you weren't thinking of Anquetil and his crusade for
amphetamines in cycling?
Maybe you were thinking of his successor, Dr. Ferrari?
Ferrari may or may not be able to do a century, but he explained that
EPO is as safe and sensible as orange juice.
(Eighteen riders who died mysteriously when EPO first became popular
were not available for comment.)
Anyway, the amphetamines of the post-WWII Tour were replaced in the
late 1980s with EPO and other blood doping schemes:
"The simplest way of expressing red blood cell content is by the ratio
of haematocrit, a straight percentage of total blood volume. The
average is around 42%, but can be as low as 35% or as high as 48%.
Riders habitually boosted themselves to the mid-50s, and Bjarne Riis,
winner of the 1996 Tour became known in the peloton as 'Mr
Sixty-percent'. In October 1995 Marco Pantani recorded a haematocrit
of 60.1%, about twenty percent higher than his natural level. On one
occasion the entire Banesto team tested at 48.5 to 49.5, a situation
impossible in nature."
"In 1997 the UCI declared itself concerned about the riders' health
and fixed a haematocrit limit. There being no scientifically-obtained
data on which to decide how much was too much, the figure of 50% was
plucked from the air. Mandatory blood tests would measure the level
and anyone over the limit would be suspended for 14 days. Every
professional team knew at once that its riders had to be close to that
limit if they were to remain competitive. The centrifuge, for
determining your haematocrit level, became part of the baggage of many
riders. There have been protests that 'many' people have a level over
50%, but no team or rider has ever produced medical evidence and asked
for an exemption. The great majority of riders have to be boosted to
near the threshold. A 90-minute warning of a test is enough for a
rider to get his haematocrit down to a safe level by water perfusion."
"By 1993 several entire teams had season-long programmes of drug
injection and were able to win one-day races more or less as they
wished, sometimes filling all three podium places. The Gewiss team had
been particularly successful in a number of the great classic races,
and their doctor Michele Ferrari was surprised that people were
shocked when, interviewed on television, he expressed the view that
EPO, like orange juice, was safe enough if taken in moderation. He was
even more surprised when Gewiss sacked him; but he remained the
personal adviser of a number of leading riders, including Tony
Rominger, a holder of the world hour record, and Lance Armstrong until
2004."
"From 1994 onwards Festina riders routinely took EPO, amphetamines,
steroids and human growth hormone, winning Tour stages, podium places
and world championships. Cortisone was also widely used, but it was
relatively ineffective compared with EPO. Almost anything was worth
trying. In the late 1990s Aranesp, a synthetic blood substitute for
use in operating theatres, was seized on and became part of the pro
team doctor's kit."
"So the decade continued. The great majority of riders boosted their
red blood count with EPO, while UCI president Hein Verbruggen declared
the sport clean and reckoned that only a tiny minority were doping."
http://www.abcc.co.uk/Articles/DrgsTdeF.html
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> "The simplest way of expressing red blood cell content is by the ratio
> of haematocrit, a straight percentage of total blood volume. The
> average is around 42%, but can be as low as 35% or as high as 48%.
> Riders habitually boosted themselves to the mid-50s, and Bjarne Riis,
> winner of the 1996 Tour became known in the peloton as 'Mr
> Sixty-percent'. In October 1995 Marco Pantani recorded a haematocrit
> of 60.1%, about twenty percent higher than his natural level. On one
> occasion the entire Banesto team tested at 48.5 to 49.5, a situation
> impossible in nature."
>
> "In 1997 the UCI declared itself concerned about the riders' health
> and fixed a haematocrit limit. There being no scientifically-obtained
> data on which to decide how much was too much, the figure of 50% was
> plucked from the air. Mandatory blood tests would measure the level
> and anyone over the limit would be suspended for 14 days. Every
> professional team knew at once that its riders had to be close to that
> limit if they were to remain competitive. The centrifuge, for
> determining your haematocrit level, became part of the baggage of many
> riders. There have been protests that 'many' people have a level over
> 50%, but no team or rider has ever produced medical evidence and asked
> for an exemption."
FWIW, a blood test I had a few years ago said my hematocrit was 49%.
I was in my upper 50s at the time, and not riding all that much. (It
was probably a 2000 mile year.) I certainly wasn't training for
racing, let alone using EPO or anything else.
It was pretty weird to realize I almost got myself disqualified from
the Tour de France!
I'm anti-doping, but IMO, that hematorcrit limit is bullshit.
- Frank Krygowski
RS
e4e35b...@j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com>, ron...@gmail.com says...
Let's compare professional cycling to baseball. In baseball the players stand
around, scratch their crotches, spit, scratch again, look around, look around
again and then every now and then run to catch a ball and then jog into the dug
house where they can sit on a bench for awhile before they jog out again to
repeat the whole ritual. As to Cycling there are times in the professional peloton
where I'm sure an agreement has been made to take it easy, so most of the guys
are shielded from the wind by those in front and they're "only" cruising along at
25+ mph on a flat section. Those are the easiest moments and are not
frequent; regardless there is physical exertion constantly. On the mountain
stages, like the last 3 days of the tour, its basically every man for himself and
constant extreme effort. I believe no other sport asks so much of an athlete in
both endurance and suffering. I in no way condone doping but can see how
professional cycling would be a venue tailor made for such illegal activity.
Heck, even baseball players dope up with steroids.
I hope all the dopers have been weeded out of cycling because it will ruin the
sport.
(PeteCresswell)
>The most famous "guy" who told everyone that it takes drugs to race
Maybe that was the person I either saw interviewed on TV or heard
about at some time in my mis-spent youth.
The interviewer was asking a professional racer - one who was
competing in the Tour De France - about the climb up
Mont-SomethingOrOther and the conversation turned to drugs.
Interviewer: "Do you use drugs?"
Pro Racer: "Climb Mont-SomethingOrOther without drugs? Are you
mad? I'd ruin my health!"
--
PeteCresswell
carl...@comcast.net
>I'm anti-doping, but IMO, that hematocrit limit is bullshit.
>
>- Frank Krygowski
Dear Frank,
Despite what the article that I quoted says, pros _do_ get exemptions
for naturally high levels:
"Still, it was Vaughters himself who received a fright at the pre-Tour
medical tests, as his hematocrit posted a 51 percent reading, above
the UCI's limit of 50 percent, but still under his special
dispensation of 52 percent. (Frequent testing had shown that Vaughters
- like many good climbers - have naturally high hematocrit levels and
they are granted dispensation from doctors.)"
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/vaughters_1999
But the 50% cutoff isn't actually the arbitrary level that the quote
claims. The normal range is surprisingly narrow, around 40%~50%.
Your 49% level was within the normal range for an adult male.
The problem is that the UCI is looking for well-established cheating
with EPO and other blood-doping tricks that raises the level. The 50%
level at least eliminates riders like Riis, whose nickname was
Sixty-Percent, and less daring cheats who settled for boosting into
the mid-fifties.
Coupled with the exemption for a higher natural level, the 50% limit
is just the best the UCI can do if it wants to discourage the rampant
EPO of the last three decades.
These things can be tricky. Smoking, obesity, and high blood pressure
(often associated with the first two) can elevate the HCT to unusual
levels, raising the "average" HCT that doctors look at in the normal
population:
But few TDF riders are fat chain-smokers with high blood pressure.
You, Frank, were probably neither plump nor a slave to tobacco when
tested, but the typical increase in blood pressure found in men in
their 50's might have raised your HCT from what it was back when you
competed in the Tour de France.
:-)
Transfusion of a unit of blood (450cc, 0.95 pints) raises the level
about 3%~4%:
"Critically high or low levels should be immediately called to the
attention of the patient's nurse or doctor. Transfusion decisions are
based on the results of laboratory tests, including the hematocrit.
Generally, transfusion is not considered necessary if the hematocrit
is above 21%. The hematocrit is also used as a guide to how many
transfusions are needed. Each unit of packed red blood cells
administered to an adult is expected to increase the hematocrit by
approximately 3% to 4%."
http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Fi-La/Hematocrit.html
In other words, an average fellow (~46%) has a good chance of
blood-packing a pint before the test without alerting the UCI
vampires, much less alarming his doctor.
(And if he packed too much or was a bit too free with the EPO, he
could have still fool them all if he has time for a spot of IV
hydration.)
Here are some typical comments on HCT percentages, with a high of 52%
that reflects the practical medical attitude toward the accuracy of
lab work and the fact that they're looking for signs of disease (a
significantly elevated level is not a good thing), not for honesty in
professional bicyclists:
"The hematocrit (Ht or HCT) or packed cell volume (PCV) or erythrocyte
volume fraction (EVF) is the proportion of blood volume that is
occupied by red blood cells. It is normally about 46% for men and 38%
for women."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematocrit
"Normal results vary, but in general are as follows:
Male: 40.7 - 50.3%
Female: 36.1 - 44.3%"
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003646.htm
"Normal values vary with age and sex. Some representative ranges are:
at birth: 42-60%
six to 12 months: 33-40%
adult males: 42-52%
adult females: 35-47%"
http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Fi-La/Hematocrit.html
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
[snip]
>Coupled with the exemption for a higher natural level, the 50% limit
>is just the best the UCI can do if it wants to discourage the rampant
>EPO of the last three decades.
snip]
Why do goofs and typos only become noticeable _after_ the post?
Two decades, ~1989 to present.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
RicodJour
>
> I hope all the dopers have been weeded out of cycling because it will ruin the
> sport.
I wonder how many people are reading that and agreeing with you while
on their sixth beer or cup of coffee, doing a line or having a toke,
wondering if they have to go to GNC this weekend for some more
creatine, and asking the wifey if the kid took their Ritalin and if
she took her Xanax.
The whole thing about ridiculous levels of drug testing in sports is
ludicrous. Let me know some place that has successfully eliminated
any intoxicants and stimulants without resorting to capital punishment
(still doesn't work) and then we can talk about the chances of
eliminating it in sports.
They should start with testing the fooking people on the trading floor
at the NYSE. Believe me, more than 1/3 are juiced. I know of traders
whose preferred drug of choice is heroin. And people have their
panties in a knot worrying about a bike race.
Eliminate all drugs and let people die earlier - miserable and in pain
if need be. It will strengthen the species.
R
Disclaimer: The above views may or may not be my own and may or may
not be taken seriously. Whatever floats your boat.
Frank Krygowski
>
> Smoking, obesity, and high blood pressure
> (often associated with the first two) can elevate the HCT to unusual
> levels, raising the "average" HCT that doctors look at in the normal
>
> You, Frank, were probably neither plump nor a slave to tobacco when
> tested, but the typical increase in blood pressure found in men in
> their 50's might have raised your HCT from what it was back when you
> competed in the Tour de France.
My 112/72? Probably not.
(The one a year before that was 104/68, so maybe the trend isn't good,
but it's hard to tell anything with only two data points.)
- Frank Krygowski
ParadoxZ
"RS" <r_sch...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:a-Sdndv9xuV5XhXV...@comcast.com...
Badwater Ultramarathon. They run (sometimes hundreds of miles) without any
break, for days.
Even the best cyclist can't compete in these.
PZ
Tom Kunich
news:ofah84hgcnk7noud7...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:47:28 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.
> com> wrote:
>>
>>What's really nice is a guy that probably couldn't do a single century
>>telling others that it takes drugs to race.
>
> won the Tour de France five times between 1957 and 1964.
So what has all this to do with anything? If ONE man wins the Tour de France
without drugs that pretty much proves that it doesn't take drugs. So you are
simply claiming that everyone takes drugs.
That suggests to me that you take illegal drugs.
Tom Kunich
news:ba08cd6f-d8ad-4942...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
> FWIW, a blood test I had a few years ago said my hematocrit was 49%.
> I was in my upper 50s at the time, and not riding all that much. (It
> was probably a 2000 mile year.) I certainly wasn't training for
> racing, let alone using EPO or anything else.
>
> It was pretty weird to realize I almost got myself disqualified from
> the Tour de France!
>
> I'm anti-doping, but IMO, that hematorcrit limit is bullshit.
I give blood all the time and my hematocrit is always between 48% and 49%.
All it would take would be for me to be slightly dehydrated from riding a
hard hot day to test over 50%.
Yet we hear that hematocrit, which limits are set by the general population
and not racing cyclists who tend to be those of superior performance and
hence higher than average hematocrit, is "too high to be normal" among
professional racing cyclists.
Tom Kunich
news:sflh84d244cakcop0...@4ax.com...
>
> The problem is that the UCI is looking for well-established cheating
> with EPO and other blood-doping tricks that raises the level. The 50%
> level at least eliminates riders like Riis, whose nickname was
> Sixty-Percent, and less daring cheats who settled for boosting into
> the mid-fifties.
I hate to point this out but regardless of the rumors going around, it
wasn't Riis who was Mr. 60%.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tom,
What do you think all those "normal" pros are doing to _lower_ the
higher-than-average HCT that you believe they must have and pass the
tests?
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
carl...@comcast.net
com> wrote:
><carl...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:ofah84hgcnk7noud7...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:47:28 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.
>> com> wrote:
>>>
>>>What's really nice is a guy that probably couldn't do a single century
>>>telling others that it takes drugs to race.
>>
>> The most famous "guy" who told everyone that it takes drugs to race
>> won the Tour de France five times between 1957 and 1964.
>
>So what has all this to do with anything? If ONE man wins the Tour de France
>without drugs that pretty much proves that it doesn't take drugs. So you are
>simply claiming that everyone takes drugs.
>
>That suggests to me that you take illegal drugs.
Dear Tom,
Ah, so you're saying that _I_ was telling others that it takes drugs
to race, but probably couldn't do a century?
Glad we cleared that pronoun up!
And with further remorseless logic, you conclude that I take illegal
drugs.
To take your reasoning a step further, since you've concluded that I
can't even do century, but am using illegal drugs, the obvious
explanation is that illegal drugs _hamper_ athletic performance.
(Oh, had I only abstained from the caffeine in Coca-Cola and the
chocolate in those doughnuts!)
Since drugs reduce performance, at least in your kind of logic, we can
conclude that _no_ pros take drugs because that would slow them down.
Whew! Thanks for setting us all straight. Someone will notify the UCI
of your discovery.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Barry
> volume fraction (EVF) is the proportion of blood volume that is
> occupied by red blood cells. It is normally about 46% for men and 38%
> for women."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematocrit
>
> "Normal results vary, but in general are as follows:
> Male: 40.7 - 50.3%
> Female: 36.1 - 44.3%"
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003646.htm
>
> "Normal values vary with age and sex. Some representative ranges are:
> at birth: 42-60%
> six to 12 months: 33-40%
> adult males: 42-52%
> adult females: 35-47%"
> http://www.surgeryencyclopedia.com/Fi-La/Hematocrit.html
I have several results from blood work over the past 25 years, and all of my
HCT are between 43-49%. One test was in France in 1983, and it gives the
normal range as 41-52%. All of the tests in the US since then show the top of
the normal range as either 49 or 50%.
Barry
Tom Kunich
news:obei84ppnc43b0lm0...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:59:04 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.
> com> wrote:
>
>>"Frank Krygowski" <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:ba08cd6f-d8ad-4942...@a2g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> FWIW, a blood test I had a few years ago said my hematocrit was 49%.
>>> I was in my upper 50s at the time, and not riding all that much. (It
>>> was probably a 2000 mile year.) I certainly wasn't training for
>>> racing, let alone using EPO or anything else.
>>>
>>> It was pretty weird to realize I almost got myself disqualified from
>>> the Tour de France!
>>>
>>> I'm anti-doping, but IMO, that hematorcrit limit is bullshit.
>>
>>I give blood all the time and my hematocrit is always between 48% and 49%.
>>All it would take would be for me to be slightly dehydrated from riding a
>>hard hot day to test over 50%.
>>
>>Yet we hear that hematocrit, which limits are set by the general
>>population
>>and not racing cyclists who tend to be those of superior performance and
>>hence higher than average hematocrit, is "too high to be normal" among
>>professional racing cyclists.
>
> higher-than-average HCT that you believe they must have and pass the
> tests?
I realize that it is like pissing in the wind but the fact is that pro
athletes very hard training knocks their hematocrit down quite a bit, and
they are super hydrated as well which also make blood appear to be lower
hematocrit. A couple of years ago when the French were proclaiming that
Lance was using EPO they failed to mention that his hematocrit was at 38%
before and after.
carl...@comcast.net
com> wrote:
Dear Tom,
So the higher-than-normal HCT of the pro riders in your earlier post
now have lower-than-average HCT!
That certainly cleared things up.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Tom Sherman
> ...
> They should start with testing the fooking people on the trading floor
> at the NYSE. Believe me, more than 1/3 are juiced. I know of traders
HEY, mood altering drug use is common at gambling operations. Why do
casinos serve alcoholic beverages at relatively low prices?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon.
Tom Sherman
> ...
> Really! How about Ultra Marathon Runners? Especially those who run in the
> Badwater Ultramarathon. They run (sometimes hundreds of miles) without any
> break, for days.
Indeed. Riding a bicycle in a foot race is generally not allowed. ;)
ParadoxZ
"Tom Sherman" <sunset...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g6bt4e$q80$3...@registered.motzarella.org...
ROTFLMAO.....good one.
PZ
Peter Cole
> Really! How about Ultra Marathon Runners? Especially those who run in the
> Badwater Ultramarathon. They run (sometimes hundreds of miles) without any
> break, for days.
> Even the best cyclist can't compete in these.
The Badwater is 135 miles, current record ~23h, the Furnace Creek 508 is
a bike race in the same area, current record ~27h. The FC 508 is only a
qualifier for RAAM.
Tom Kunich
news:o2gi84pp2f0n262pl...@4ax.com...
>
> So the higher-than-normal HCT of the pro riders in your earlier post
> now have lower-than-average HCT!
>
> That certainly cleared things up.
Somehow I didn't expect you to be able to put two and two together. Namely
that Pro cyclists normally have higher end hematocrits but often test
significantly lower as well because of the wide variation of their physical
demands and possible hydration problems.
And don't let it effect you that I have done design work and programming for
automatic blood typing and testing machines. Or that consequently I keep a
copy of Williams Hematology on the shelf.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tom,
Until you can decide whether the riders test high or low, I promise
that I won't let your bookshelf affect me.
(Do you think that the UCI ever talked to any doctors who've got
books, too?)
But feel free to tell us _how_ high you think pro riders normally
test--those numbers have been absent from your posts. So far, an HCT
of 38 for Armstrong is the only figure that you've mentioned.
Surely you have HCT data for pro riders, both in jeans and in cycling
shorts?
Of course, you may have lost that data.
It could have been taken by that lawyer who forgot to give back your
cycling log when he lost your case after you cut off your toe with the
lawnmower.
(If he was showing the court bicycle logs in a case about medical
bills and time lost from work, no wonder he lost the case.)
(And some posters are still waiting to hear why you sued anyone for
cutting off your own toe with a lawnmower after you insisted that
anyone who spilled hot coffee on herself should take responsibility.)
That was the year-long log that you told us proved that you lost 10
minutes "EVERY" time you took a 10-mile ride in jeans and a t-shirt
instead of cycling shorts and a jersey.
You explained that you couldn't remember the speeds or the times for a
10-mile ride that you took daily for a year, just the minute-per-mile
increase in time.
But I won't let any of that affect me, or put two and two together.
Surprise me--post some numbers for normal HCT for pro riders.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Tom Kunich
news:hjek84p8em6scvshj...@4ax.com...
>
> But feel free to tell us _how_ high you think pro riders normally
> test--those numbers have been absent from your posts. So far, an HCT
> of 38 for Armstrong is the only figure that you've mentioned.
You needn't wait since I have no intentions of humoring an idiot poster any
longer. Be sure not to actually look up normal hematocrit values and
variation since it would probably blow what little mind you have.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Tom,
No data, no surprise!
And you with that book right next to your elbow!
If you read the thread, you'll see where I posted normal HCT values
and their variation from several sources.
Here's something that you can cut-'n'-paste every few weeks to save
time when you come up empty:
"Unfortunately I've had to place Carl on Block since he doesn't seem
capable of understanding that his viewpoint is his viewpoint and isn't
required word-of-God to everyone else."
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/12fced25f1935631
You posted that two weeks ago. I look forward to seeing a similar
proclamation soon in some unrelated thread.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
Forbes B-Black
> Wouldn't their legs or whole body be sore the next day?
No. Contrary to popular belief, there is no soreness associated with
competing in the TDF. In fact, most riders describe the experience as
"invigorating," "refreshing" or "a happy dose of feeling good."
Glad I could help.
- FBB