Why do so many people still buy road bikes with drop bars but never ride in the dropped position?
SMS
probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
the drop position. Since parts of the GG bridge path are quite narrow,
and there are a lot of inexperienced and unpredictable riders out there,
I saw a lot of maneuvers where the road cyclist would scramble to change
their hand position from the top, down to reach the brake levers.
I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
Cane Creek Crosstop levers
("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
impractical.
Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
back.
Lou Holtman
On the hoods should the most comfortable position IMO. In the drops is
for descending when really hard braking in needed or to get in a more
aero position. If your hands are on the hoods there is no problem even
on the Golden Gate bridge and you don't need those goofy safety brakes.
Lou
Dan O
I took the extension levers off of my bike. They were really only
good for very modest, mushy, slow-down-a-little braking anyway. I
couldn't lock the wheels with them. They interfered with a good grip
on the hoods. They rattled. And they looked goofy :-)
I only ever ride on the tops in the most casual circumstances,
anyway. I'm with Lou: The hoods are where it's at, and the drops are
for getting aero (headwinds or making the most of a descent).
All that said, I'm sure a lot of people would be better off with a
different style handlebar.
jim beam
don't you have braze-ons for your steel handlebars?
troll.
Chalo
>
> Yesterday on my ride across the GG bridge and into Marin county,
> probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
> non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
> fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
> the drop position.
They were pwetending. If you're gonna dwess up as a Tour de Fwance
champeen, you gotta use dwop bars. But nobody says you hafta use
'em.
> I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
> Cane Creek Crosstop levers
> ("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
> riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
> impractical.
>
> Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> back.
In their day, those were called "suicide levers" or, more amusingly,
"turkey wings". They allowed you to access the brakes from the bar
tops, but they didn't allow you to use the lever's full travel from
that position. So they lulled riders into complacency while letting
them down when they needed their brakes most.
Cross levers are the new turkey wings. At least they work better
now. The jive turkeys who buy drop bar bikes and don't use the drops
are the same low quality items as in the old days, though.
Chalo
RS
2d29c8...@q9g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>, danov...@gmail.com
says...
drops. Certainly riding around town its mostly on the hoods so the car in
front who's driver is talking on the cell phone (illedgal in California) is about
to cut over one lane to get to that parking space right in front of you or
some such other stupid thing, will make you slam your brakes or veer off.
Just a little ranting here, happened again yesterday. Some woman in a SUV
cut me off right before an intersection so she could make that right turn on
red light and she was on her phone. I pulled up right next to her and just
looked at her. She wouldn't look at me, but she'd make that big effort to do
me in. Funny world.
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Chalo,
1947 Tour de France winner Robic:
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=%22tour+de+france%22+source:life&imgurl=2291afb0faa7c1bb
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
landotter
The biggest problem with drops are the advent of mtbs and that culture
influencing people to buy road bikes that are too small, thus making
the drops a heroic reach. My last two 60cm bikes were purchased
against the opinion of two different shops that thought I was too
short to ride such a "large" bike at a measly 186cm.
Also a problem, IMHO, is the disease known as "ergonomic". Those style
drops are uncomfortable for human hands for long periods as there's no
traditional long flat.
OldRoads
>
> - Show quoted text -
Those extensions used to be called 'Safety Levers'.
We call 'em Suicide Levers.
Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
http://OldRoads.com
Michael Press
Lou Holtman <lhollaatd...@planet.nl> wrote:
Thanks, Lou. You saved me the trouble.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
SMS <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
I thought you were an expert on bicycles, but this post does not show it.
--
Michael Press
SMS
> On the hoods should the most comfortable position IMO. In the drops is
> for descending when really hard braking in needed or to get in a more
> aero position. If your hands are on the hoods there is no problem even
> on the Golden Gate bridge and you don't need those goofy safety brakes.
I agree, but that's not where most of the riders were positioning their
hands. They were further in, where those Cane Creek Crosstop levers
would be a big help. I usually position my hands on the hoods, but I can
see why so many riders put their hands higher up and toward the center.
BTW, I was just kidding when I suggested bringing back "safety brakes,"
or as we used to call them, "danger brakes."
Bret
Drop bars have three useful hand positions. If someone only wants to
use two of them I have no issue with that.
If someone were to buy a 3 in one printer/copier/fax machine and then
only use it to print and copy, would they also be a jive turkey?
Bret
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
[some stuff]
Why don't you ask them?
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > SMS wrote:
> > >
> > > Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> > > back.
> >
> > In their day, those were called "suicide levers" or, more amusingly,
> > "turkey wings". They allowed you to access the brakes from the bar
> > tops, but they didn't allow you to use the lever's full travel from
> > that position. So they lulled riders into complacency while letting
> > them down when they needed their brakes most.
> >
> > Cross levers are the new turkey wings. At least they work better
> > now. The jive turkeys who buy drop bar bikes and don't use the drops
> > are the same low quality items as in the old days, though.
>
> use two of them I have no issue with that.
>
> If someone were to buy a 3 in one printer/copier/fax machine and then
> only use it to print and copy, would they also be a jive turkey?
The drops on most people's handlebars serve the same purpose as the
rear wing on a family sedan (i.e., jive turkeyism). As far as I know,
this aspect isn't analogous to fax functionality in printer-copiers.
At least the rear wing on a family sedan doesn't impair the proper
operation of the car's brakes and shifter.
Chalo
jim beam
jeepers - who pissed in your cornflakes this morning? can't ned ludd
find any looms to smash?
come to r.b.t everybody! curmudgeon central!
Sandy
news:6b3d628a-d7f4-4bfc...@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
I wonder if some of these riders don't have a waistline impediment. Just
wondering.
Of course, if you prefer to have no choice of where to put your hands, the
straight bar approach eliminates all need to actually think for yourself.
Brain disengaged - greater comfort.
--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
Lou Holtman
.. and the first thing people do when using straight bars on longer
rides is put bar-ends on to put their hands in the most natural and
comfortable position. Just like on the hoods and in the drops.
Lou
John Forrest Tomlinson
<chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
>The drops on most people's handlebars serve the same purpose as the
>rear wing on a family sedan (i.e., jive turkeyism). As far as I know,
>this aspect isn't analogous to fax functionality in printer-copiers.
A wing on a sedan does nothing other than appearance.
You're saying the drops have zero value other than appearance?
jim beam
yeah, only without their hands touching the controls!
Bret
This is just your minority opinion. My opinion is that the drops are
the most secure place to be when handling a bicycle.
Bret
Chalo
>
> Of course, if you prefer to have no choice of where to put your hands, the
> straight bar approach eliminates all need to actually think for yourself.
> Brain disengaged - greater comfort.
For what it's worth, that's what makes a single-speed bike such a
smile machine. No fidgeting, no wondering how to go even faster--
just push the pedals.
Having only one hand position may seem like a disadvantage compared to
having several; but if the one you have is far better than any of the
several? That's not a disadvantage at all.
Usually, a bar with some amount of rearward sweep is more comfortable
than a straight MTB-style bar. But you still only need one, if it's a
good one. Just ask a motorcyclist.
Chalo
John Forrest Tomlinson
<chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
>At least the rear wing on a family sedan doesn't impair the proper
>operation of the car's brakes and shifter.
You don't seem to realize how exceptional you are, and that results in
odd statements about other people and bikes.
John Forrest Tomlinson
Are there any photos of you riding a bike online?
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >The drops on most people's handlebars serve the same purpose as the
> >rear wing on a family sedan (i.e., jive turkeyism). As far as I know,
> >this aspect isn't analogous to fax functionality in printer-copiers.
>
> A wing on a sedan does nothing other than appearance.
>
> You're saying the drops have zero value other than appearance?
If you never put your hands there, then yes. Just like if you never
drive over 120mph, the wing on your Maxima does nothing for you. And
from what I can observe firsthand, most drop bar riders never put
their hands in the drops. They bought a "sporty" bike, like their
"sporty" sedan, which is inconsistent with how they actually use it.
Chalo
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > The drops on most people's handlebars serve the same purpose as the
> > rear wing on a family sedan (i.e., jive turkeyism). As far as I know,
> > this aspect isn't analogous to fax functionality in printer-copiers.
> >
> > At least the rear wing on a family sedan doesn't impair the proper
> > operation of the car's brakes and shifter.
>
> This is just your minority opinion. My opinion is that the drops are
> the most secure place to be when handling a bicycle.
Right. The hoods and tops are not the best place from which to
operate the brakes. But in my observation, most drop bar riders use
_only_ the hoods and tops. Except, that is, for the fixie dudes with
their pista bars, who use their drops but don't have brakes at all.
Using a drop bar when you never actually put your mitts in the drops
is accepting impaired operation of the brakes.
Chalo
(PeteCresswell)
>.. and the first thing people do when using straight bars on longer
>rides is put bar-ends on to put their hands in the most natural and
>comfortable position. Just like on the hoods and in the drops.
It wasn't the first thing I did... but eventually I caught on.
Beeeg improvement for me. Maybe 85-90% as comfortable as being
on the hoods.
My problem with drop bars for off-road use is that the drops hit
my legs in tight situations - whereas flats are free to rotate
above the legs.
--
PeteCresswell
jim beam
yeah. and all fat guys eat lard, right? chalo, of all people here, you
are one really /not/ in a position to make ridiculous generalizations.
jim beam
ok, now you're just being stupid.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:d5Vsl.19573$c45....@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Lou Holtman wrote:
>
>> On the hoods should the most comfortable position IMO. In the drops
>> is for descending when really hard braking in needed or to get in a
>> more aero position. If your hands are on the hoods there is no
>> problem even on the Golden Gate bridge and you don't need those goofy
>> safety brakes.
>
> I agree, but that's not where most of the riders were positioning
> their hands. They were further in, where those Cane Creek Crosstop
> levers would be a big help. I usually position my hands on the hoods,
> but I can see why so many riders put their hands higher up and toward
> the center.
Their hand placement may be an indication of either too long a stem
(very likely) or a bar that has too much forward reach, so the only
place they feel comfortable is on the top center section. This is very
common. You know how a bike should feel and be set up, I know how it
should be, but a lot of cyclists don't know any better and many shops
would rather just send it out with the stem that came on the bike.
> BTW, I was just kidding when I suggested bringing back "safety
> brakes," or as we used to call them, "danger brakes."
"Suicide levers" was the industry standard term.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Mike Jacoubowsky
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >The drops on most people's handlebars serve the same purpose as the
> >rear wing on a family sedan (i.e., jive turkeyism). As far as I know,
> >this aspect isn't analogous to fax functionality in printer-copiers.
>
> A wing on a sedan does nothing other than appearance.
>
> You're saying the drops have zero value other than appearance?
If you never put your hands there, then yes. Just like if you never
drive over 120mph, the wing on your Maxima does nothing for you. And
from what I can observe firsthand, most drop bar riders never put
their hands in the drops. They bought a "sporty" bike, like their
"sporty" sedan, which is inconsistent with how they actually use it.
Chalo
==================
If you *never* put your hands on the drops, it could be that the
handlebar overall is too low. Raising the bar may result in additional
useful hand positions. There's a little bit of irony in the idea that
raising the handlebar may allow someone to adapt to a
slightly-more-aggressive hand position (because before that, it was too
low to be useful).
larry peters
Andrew Lee
> On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:24:55 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
Here's one:
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >smile machine. No fidgeting, no wondering how to go even faster--
> >just push the pedals.
> >
> >Having only one hand position may seem like a disadvantage compared to
> >having several; but if the one you have is far better than any of the
> >several? That's not a disadvantage at all.
> >
> >Usually, a bar with some amount of rearward sweep is more comfortable
> >than a straight MTB-style bar. But you still only need one, if it's a
> >good one. Just ask a motorcyclist.
>
> Are there any photos of you riding a bike online?
Just the tallbike, I think. Maybe some of me piloting Austin Bike Zoo
contraptions. I doubt there's much conclusion to be drawn from any of
those.
Chalo
Carl Sundquist
Exactly. That is why most bikes are now fitted with a rising stem that
is 1-2 cm shorter than what was fitted as an OEM part 15-20 years ago.
Carl
Can't find a decent 140 -17 degree stem in 31.8
Carl Sundquist
Why would you say that?
John Forrest Tomlinson
Thanks
Bret
I dunno. One might conclude that you too choose bikes so that you can
assume a certain pose.
Bret
John Forrest Tomlinson
Are you very fat? Can you touch your toes with your knees locked, or
come close? I'm trying to figure out why you have such exceptional
views on bikes. I assume weight has something to do with it, but I'm
also wondering about your shape and flexibility.
If you're 300# and 6' that's quite a bit different than 300# and 6'6",
for example.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
ssssssnnnnnnnnarrrrrrrrrrlllllllllllllll
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
thousands of riders ?? holy cow
I live at a qualoity resort retirement complex on the beach run by
organized crime and off course there are quite a few TdF posuers.
1000 ? One day on a 20 mile jaunt thru the cuntry side cumin screamin
down into a crossroadspast several vicious mexican dogs, t
there outa the sun goin the other way was
THE FLIPPIN US POSTAL TEAM
whoa
yeah but the whole enchilada is training and technique, lots, hours,
200 mile weeks,
that's the design and the experience or experience then design, Fargo
or not.
how many do? well, can't many. But the bike is the experience design
bike with drop bars and uh 12 spokes...wait ! the LBS aint gonna sell
bikes with 12 spokes caws that'll...
SMS
> Their hand placement may be an indication of either too long a stem
> (very likely) or a bar that has too much forward reach, so the only
> place they feel comfortable is on the top center section. This is very
> common. You know how a bike should feel and be set up, I know how it
> should be, but a lot of cyclists don't know any better and many shops
> would rather just send it out with the stem that came on the bike.
I think what Sheldon did here
"http://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/brown/pages/01brown-2-bar.htm" is the
optimal solution.
I do think those Cane Creek crosstop levers are pretty cool. I can see
using them on my touring bicycle.
jim beam
your steel touring bicycle? the one with the steel bars, steel cranks,
steel seat post, steel rims, steel stem, steel brakes, and steel
bullshit disperser?
SMS
> "Suicide levers" was the industry standard term.
I only know one person who was seriously injured due to the brakes on
their bike, and it was because they had become used to brake levers that
you really had to squeeze hard to have a noticeable effect, kind of like
a poorly assembled old department store bike where the wheels were so
out of true that the brakes needed to be adjusted very loose, or a bike
with the "safety brake" levers.
Then she got a new bike with V brakes and didn't realize just how
powerful they were. She squeezed only the front brake lever going down a
hill on the Los Gatos Creek Trail (the underpass for CA 85), and went
flying over the handlebars, broke her arm and various other things, and
never really recovered fully.
I've ridden rental bikes in China where the brakes don't really do
anything, and you don't want them to. A sudden stop would cause a pile up.
Mike Jacoubowsky
The reason we don't enourage the crosstop levers is because it puts your
hands very close together. It's *not* as stable as having your hands
further apart, especially if you've got to maneuver quickly (or even
stop quickly). If you haven't tried them yet, do so before putting them
on your own bike. It might work fine for you, but I think you'll agree
there are more reasons than just ergonomics for why we ride bars that
are more than 12 inches wide.
Peter Rathmann
> Their hand placement may be an indication of either too long a stem
> (very likely) or a bar that has too much forward reach, so the only
> place they feel comfortable is on the top center section. This is very
> common. You know how a bike should feel and be set up, I know how it
> should be, but a lot of cyclists don't know any better and many shops
> would rather just send it out with the stem that came on the bike.
>
> > BTW, I was just kidding when I suggested bringing back "safety
> > brakes," or as we used to call them, "danger brakes."
>
> "Suicide levers" was the industry standard term.
My impression is that those got a largely bum rap due to the many that
were poorly positioned as well as some particularly flimsy
implementations. My old Schwinn Varsity came with them and once I
readjusted the brake position on the bars they did a perfectly
adequate job of stopping the bike - i.e. easy to apply the back brake
hard enough to skid or the front brake hard enough to lift the rear
wheel off the ground. Of course that was in dry weather conditions -
the chromed steel rims didn't let any rim brakes do an adequate job of
stopping when wet. But the auxiliary levers still worked as well as
the normal ones, i.e. very poorly until the brakes had squeegied the
water off.
As to the use of the drops, I'd have to admit that I don't use that
position all that often but it sure can come in handy at the end of a
long ride when faced with a stiff headwind. Similarly I don't use my
smallest chainring very often but I'm not about to get rid of it
either. I do have the impression that many non-competitive riders
probably have their bars set a bit lower than is comfortable - maybe
in emulation of racing cyclists. That puts the drop position much
lower than comfortable and discourages its use.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >>
> >> Chalo wrote:
>
> >> >For what it's worth, that's what makes a single-speed bike such a
> >> >smile machine. No fidgeting, no wondering how to go even faster--
> >> >just push the pedals.
>
> >> >Having only one hand position may seem like a disadvantage compared to
> >> >having several; but if the one you have is far better than any of the
> >> >several? That's not a disadvantage at all.
>
> >> >Usually, a bar with some amount of rearward sweep is more comfortable
> >> >than a straight MTB-style bar. But you still only need one, if it's a
> >> >good one. Just ask a motorcyclist.
>
> >> Are there any photos of you riding a bike online?
>
> >Just the tallbike, I think. Maybe some of me piloting Austin Bike Zoo
> >contraptions. I doubt there's much conclusion to be drawn from any of
> >those.
>
> Are you very fat?
At the time of the tallbike photos, I weighed the same as I do now;
350 lbs. at 6'8". Make your own judgments.
> Can you touch your toes with your knees locked, or
> come close?
No, but that's just my tight hamstrings. After a long ride or a hot
bath, maybe I could do it.
> I'm trying to figure out why you have such exceptional
> views on bikes.
You mean, why do I favor the sorts of bars that the overwhelming
majority of the world's bicyclists prefer? If you weren't a racer,
I'd think you should be the one explaining why you side with the tiny
minority on this. I'm not a racer so I don't abuse myself like one.
> I assume weight has something to do with it, but I'm
> also wondering about your shape and flexibility.
When I was 20 years old, very fast, cycled 300 miles every week, and
weighed 120 pounds less than I do now, I placed my handlebars some 8"
below seat level. But they weren't drop bars, because I couldn't make
peace with drops . I used plain flat bars or Scott AT-4s.
Chalo
Tom Sherman
> [...]
> .. and the first thing people do when using straight bars on longer
> rides is put bar-ends on to put their hands in the most natural and
> comfortable position. Just like on the hoods and in the drops.
>
wish for alternate hand positions.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll
Tom Sherman
> [...]
> Are you very fat? Can you touch your toes with your knees locked, or
> come close? I'm trying to figure out why you have such exceptional
> views on bikes. I assume weight has something to do with it, but I'm
>
I had trouble touching my toes that way when I was in high school at
5'10"-115 lbs. and able to run a sub 5:30 mile.
Chalo
Choose them? I build them. That's why they don't look like anybody
else's.
Driving a pedal trike and trailer and rock band combo weighing over
3000 pounds is spectacular, but it isn't posing exactly.
http://vimeo.com/2126732
http://vimeo.com/2206718
Letting someone dress you up as a giant bumblebee is posing, I guess:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cIZIaieQLwM/SVzpbTvE9XI/AAAAAAAABHk/-EjnNPzoCjA/s1600-h/bees1.jpg
http://vimeo.com/2729078
I'll admit my ordinary beater bikes are super fashion conscious,
though-- scratched-up '70s and '80s Cannondales, Fujis, and Nishikis
with hot details like BMX cranks and kitty litter buckets are all the
rage these days. Or they will be, one of these days.
Chalo
RobertH
> ...I used plain flat bars or Scott AT-4s.
I was one of the earliest and most enthusiastic adopters of these
strange handlebars. I think I used them for about a year. There is a
lot of useless metal on those things. At the time it was customary to
use some sort of bar-end, even for racing. Then the great Tinker
Juarez started using a plain flat bar with no additions, and he
displayed no trouble climbing out of the saddle, which was the
ostensible purpose of bar-ends, to provide a hand position similar to
that of standing on a road bike with hands on the hoods. These days I
ride about 2000 miles of singletrack a year with a plain flat bar and
never want for additional hand positions. On the road bike, however, I
use a drop bar, am in the drops maybe 5 or 10% of the time at most,
and feel strongly that it would be a major step backward to use a flat
bar instead. Just throwin in my 2 pesos.
Flat bar: Good.
Drop bar: Good.
Ben C
> Sandy wrote:
>>
>> Of course, if you prefer to have no choice of where to put your hands, the
>> straight bar approach eliminates all need to actually think for yourself.
>> Brain disengaged - greater comfort.
>
> smile machine. No fidgeting, no wondering how to go even faster--
> just push the pedals.
>
> Having only one hand position may seem like a disadvantage compared to
> having several; but if the one you have is far better than any of the
> several? That's not a disadvantage at all.
For me the best hand position is one of the ones I've not been using for
the last half hour.
John Forrest Tomlinson
It's amazing and bizarre that you can use bikes in ways that few other
people do, that you weigh far more than the vast majority of cyclists,
and yet you think that your views/experiences on what is appropriate
for most riders is valid and what those many other riders are doing is
wrong. That's whack..
Tom Sherman
> [...]
> people do, that you weigh far more than the vast majority of cyclists,
> and yet you think that your views/experiences on what is appropriate
> for most riders is valid and what those many other riders are doing is
> wrong. That's whack..
There are plenty of people that fit the above description.
Unfortunately, many of them work in LBS's.
andre...@aol.com
> SMS schreef:
>
>
>
> > Yesterday on my ride across the GG bridge and into Marin county,
> > probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
> > non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
> > fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
> > the drop position. Since parts of the GG bridge path are quite narrow,
> > and there are a lot of inexperienced and unpredictable riders out there,
> > I saw a lot of maneuvers where the road cyclist would scramble to change
> > their hand position from the top, down to reach the brake levers.
>
> > I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
> > Cane Creek Crosstop levers
> > ("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
> > riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
> > impractical.
>
> > Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> > back.
>
> for descending when really hard braking in needed or to get in a more
> aero position. If your hands are on the hoods there is no problem even
> on the Golden Gate bridge and you don't need those goofy safety brakes.
>
I spend quite a long time on the drops and I am quite comfortable on
them. Granted that I don't have them half a yard below the saddle. My
bars are about an inch below the saddle. So, being on the drops is
quite comfortable. Riding alone, at a good speed or against the wind,
is is also easier.
landotter
wrote:
The local G*** F**** is a hilarious example of an entire bike shop
built on mainly BS. They're in the wealthiest part of Old Money Town--
thus, they only sell high end racing bicycles to people with assloads
of money--because wealth buys that status--the right to tootle
uncomfortably around the park in team kit!
From the website:
"If your present bike is ten years old or older, it is time to replace
it. The upgrades you do will usually cost more than the bike is
worth."
That's right! Got an 88 Univega in need of a fresh chain a brake pads--
it's worth less than $40--so replace it with a new $2000 hunchy racer
to discover the value of cycling.
jwbinpdx
wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > [...]
> > It's amazing and bizarre that you can use bikes in ways that few other
> > people do, that you weigh far more than the vast majority of cyclists,
> > and yet you think that your views/experiences on what is appropriate
> > for most riders is valid and what those many other riders are doing is
> > wrong. That's whack..
>
> There are plenty of people that fit the above description.
> Unfortunately, many of them work in LBS's.
Most of the people I see working in LBSs are of average height and
weight and generally ride pretty straight forward bikes -- except the
guys/gals from River City who use wood fenders.
You make it sound like there is a conspiracy to sell wrong bikes to
customers and that customers don't know what they want, or more
accurately, what they don't want. I don't think at is true except for
the dillusional few customers who dream of being Lance and who drop a
lot of money at the local high end store (I.D.d by Landotter).
The major independents in PDX along with Performance, REI, etc., have
a wide variety of bikes. Bike Gallery must have three different SS
bikes with a variety of weird handlebars, many comfort bikes, MTBs,
etc. We even have a store that specializes in -- gasp -- recumbents.
http://www.coventrycycle.com/ I go to these places from time to time
and listen to the sales people, and some of what they say is BS or
shallow, but some is right on, and they generally aim to put people on
bikes that are comfortable for them.
IMO, it is only the poseur who gets the "wrong" bike, which is in
fact, the "right" bike for him, viz., the one he wants and asked for
specifically. If some duffer with a gut and way too much cash walked
in to your shop and said that he was going to buy the $10K tricked-out
Pinarello because it was exactly what he needed and wanted, would you
would sell it to him. Sure, you would snicker in the back room, but
hey, he can buy whatever he wants -- along with the full FitKit
session (probably a good idea), aero booties and full Astana kit. --
Jay Beattie.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Chalowrote:
> >> >
> >> > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Are there any photos of you riding a bike online?
> >> >
> >> > Just the tallbike, I think. Maybe some of me piloting Austin Bike Zoo
> >> > contraptions. I doubt there's much conclusion to be drawn from any of
> >> > those.
> >>
> >> I dunno. One might conclude that you too choose bikes so that you can
> >> assume a certain pose.
> >
> >Choose them? I build them. That's why they don't look like anybody
> >else's.
> >
> >Driving a pedal trike and trailer and rock band combo weighing over
> >3000 pounds is spectacular, but it isn't posing exactly.
> >http://vimeo.com/2126732
> >http://vimeo.com/2206718
> >
> >Letting someone dress you up as a giant bumblebee is posing, I guess:
> >http://vimeo.com/2729078
> >
> >I'll admit my ordinary beater bikes are super fashion conscious,
> >though-- scratched-up '70s and '80s Cannondales, Fujis, and Nishikis
> >with hot details like BMX cranks and kitty litter buckets are all the
> >rage these days. Or they will be, one of these days.
>
> It's amazing and bizarre that you can use bikes in ways that few other
> people do, that you weigh far more than the vast majority of cyclists,
> and yet you think that your views/experiences on what is appropriate
> for most riders is valid and what those many other riders are doing is
> wrong. That's whack..
I also do pretty much all my getting around on bikes that you'd
consider normal. People don't usually take my picture and put it on
the web when I do that, though. "Hey, look at that guy on a bike-- he
looks like he must be going to work!"
I've been doing this a long time. When I was in college, I could
average 19-20mph including stops on a 10-mile run across town to get
to and from school. I've ridden several >100 mile days up to a 170
miles/10 hours (not including stops). I worked as a mechanic in bike
shops for years, and outside of that I have helped scores of friends
and family members get set up with bikes. That is, I have used and
continue to use bikes in ways that other riders do, _and_ in ways that
other riders can't or don't.
There are literally billions of bike riders out there, and by far most
of agree with me in their choices of handlebars. All those Chinese
and Indians who ride bike? They'd relate to what I do, but they'd
probably think you were crazy.
Chalo
Lou Holtman
> Per Lou Holtman:
>> .. and the first thing people do when using straight bars on longer
>> rides is put bar-ends on to put their hands in the most natural and
>> comfortable position. Just like on the hoods and in the drops.
>
>
You are right. The first thing is hacksaw the ridiculous wide
straightbars to the proper length. Sorry about that. Many people forget
to do this and ride with 700 mm wide bars.
Lou
cl...@snyder.on.ca
I've never liked drops - usually but NorthRoad bars on all my bikes.
I'm NOT a fast rider - never have been, and with my long legs and
short back I can't remember EVER being able to touch my toes. For
decades I was 6'1.5" and 160 lbs or less.
PatTX
:: On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:01:30 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
:: <chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
::
::: At least the rear wing on a family sedan doesn't impair the proper
::: operation of the car's brakes and shifter.
:: You don't seem to realize how exceptional you are, and that results
:: in odd statements about other people and bikes.
Er, Jobst does the same thing. It's ego-centric in that whatever is "right"
for them is "right" for the rest of humanity. With Jobst, it's the
"morality" of not using mirrors. With Chalo, it's the flat handlebar
preference. <shrug>
Pat in TX
Nick L Plate
>
> This is just your minority opinion. My opinion is that the drops are
> the most secure place to be when handling a bicycle.
With the correct size hook, the hand is secure when braking or
cornering. This locked-in position is not achievable on other bars.
Over bumpy ground, this means less force is required to maintain
control of the steering.
TJ
carl...@comcast.net
Dear Clare,
Don't feel bad--touching your toes isn't easy:
http://i44.tinypic.com/1zlfwqq.jpg
About two inches to go.
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
russell...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Me too. I probably ride 25-35% of the time in the drops. More when
going into a headwind. But I also notice most bikers do not use the
drops. Many a ride I've been on riding along in the group into a
headwind and everyone around me is sitting bolt upright with their
hands on the hoods catching the wind like a sail. Always seems odd to
me. My tops are about 3 inches or so below saddle height.
Bret
Right. In very rough terrain, such as washboard on a dirt road, you
can hold the drops loosely and get a suspension effect without being
in any danger of losing control of the bar.
Bret
mike
7b9b51...@q30g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, whatsu...@hotmail.com
says...
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:24:55 -0700 (PDT), Chalo
> > Are there any photos of you riding a bike online?
>
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/tallride4.jpg
>
Now that thing _really_ needs drop-bars.
Mike
SMS
> The major independents in PDX along with Performance, REI, etc., have
> a wide variety of bikes. Bike Gallery must have three different SS
> bikes with a variety of weird handlebars, many comfort bikes, MTBs,
> etc.
Maybe Bike Gallery could open up a Silicon Valley branch. Great store.
Peter Cole
> Yesterday on my ride across the GG bridge and into Marin county,
> probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
> non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
> fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
> the drop position. Since parts of the GG bridge path are quite narrow,
> and there are a lot of inexperienced and unpredictable riders out there,
> I saw a lot of maneuvers where the road cyclist would scramble to change
> their hand position from the top, down to reach the brake levers.
>
> I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
> Cane Creek Crosstop levers
> ("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
> riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
> impractical.
>
> Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> back.
I think setting up handlebars is the trickiest part of bike tweaking. I
set mine up so that I can ride comfortably in the drops for long periods
and can also stay on the brake levers if I want. The most comfortable
width for me is exactly shoulder width, so I don't ride on the tops much
at all. I fart around for a long time (hour or more) setting up bar
height, rotational angle and lever position until I get it just right. I
also try out multiple stems & bars. It's amazing how much of a
difference small changes can make (to me, anyway).
Short answer, I think most people have their bars too low. It makes the
bike look sporty, but they then can't comfortably ride in the (even
shallow) drops.
mike
998d7e...@v18g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, bret...@gmail.com says...
handle-bar pivot, you are more stable against accidental rotation of the
bars when braking one-handed on drops. I notice this a lot when
comparing my road-bike to my MTB. Quite happy signalling in the city on
the road-bike while on the drops because one-handed emergency braking
doesn't de-stabilise me. Whereas, on the MTB, signalling and braking
simultaneously results in an unexpected cornering manouvre. I use the
drops on the road-bike about 50% of the time and occasionally would like
to have the option to take a similar position on the MTB - but usually
only on long (4 hour+) endurance rides.
Mike
A Muzi
> wrote:
>> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> It's amazing and bizarre that you can use bikes in ways that few other
>>> people do, that you weigh far more than the vast majority of cyclists,
>>> and yet you think that your views/experiences on what is appropriate
>>> for most riders is valid and what those many other riders are doing is
>>> wrong. That's whack..
>> There are plenty of people that fit the above description.
>> Unfortunately, many of them work in LBS's.
landotter wrote:
> The local G*** F**** is a hilarious example of an entire bike shop
> built on mainly BS. They're in the wealthiest part of Old Money Town--
> thus, they only sell high end racing bicycles to people with assloads
> of money--because wealth buys that status--the right to tootle
> uncomfortably around the park in team kit!
> From the website:
> "If your present bike is ten years old or older, it is time to replace
> it. The upgrades you do will usually cost more than the bike is
> worth."
> That's right! Got an 88 Univega in need of a fresh chain a brake pads--
> it's worth less than $40--so replace it with a new $2000 hunchy racer
> to discover the value of cycling.
I'm with you.
The term 'BS' I understand. What's 'G***F***' mean ?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
jwbinpdx
You can buy a Parlee Z3 or a Madsen kg271 cargo bike.
http://www.bikegallery.com/city-biking.php Or, in your case, you can
point and laugh at the Parlee Z3 and then go pet the CoMotion steel
frame or an Electra Amsterdam.
And just to be fair to the other shops, RiverCity has Waterford and
Surley. Coventry carries Rivendell. Lakeside has IF steel frames.
These are the steel frames that come to mind, but there are many more
OTC steel frames that you can get in town.
And if you must have custom steel -- hold on to your socks: Vanilla,
Cascadia, Altered, Velvet, Ahearne, Courage, Argonaut, Hufnagel,
Arrow, Metrofiets (cargo bikes), Pereira Cycles, Keith Anderson,
Belladonna, Sprout, Ira Ryan, Strawberry, Sweetpea -- to name a few
(and not including the builders down south like Vendetta and
CoMotion). We have a steel builder under every rock in PDX. I think
it is what baristas do in their spare time. -- Jay Beattie.
.
landotter
I took the liberty of anonymizing their name as Usenet is forever.
It's a road race and mainly roadie race wannabe shop. Lots of
attitude. No bikes under $1K, no kids bikes. Kinda depressing.
A Muzi
jwbinpdx wrote:
-snip-
> IMO, it is only the poseur who gets the "wrong" bike, which is in
> fact, the "right" bike for him, viz., the one he wants and asked for
> specifically. If some duffer with a gut and way too much cash walked
> in to your shop and said that he was going to buy the $10K tricked-out
> Pinarello because it was exactly what he needed and wanted, would you
> hey, he can buy whatever he wants -- along with the full FitKit
> session (probably a good idea), aero booties and full Astana kit. --
bless them, every one.
jobst....@stanfordalumni.org
>> IMO, it is only the poseur who gets the "wrong" bike, which is in
>> fact, the "right" bike for him, viz., the one he wants and asked
>> for specifically. If some duffer with a gut and way too much cash
>> walked in to your shop and said that he was going to buy the $10K
>> tricked-out Pinarello because it was exactly what he needed and
>> wanted, would you -snip- sell it to him. Sure, you would snicker
>> in the back room, but hey, he can buy whatever he wants -- along
>> with the full FitKit session (probably a good idea), aero booties
>> and full Astana kit. --
> bless them, every one.
I am disappointed in the wide Fit Kit use, that I believe misses rider
peculiarities that are not readily measurable. I came to that
conclusion from having ridden where most bicycle shops were run by
former professional racers who spent a lot of time on a bicycle and
were around others who were good riders and shared their discoveries
about bicycling.
The customer was usually asked to ride casually around the parking lot
(or up and down the street) while the biker watched their body
movement in various positions. To a skilled observer, more can be
seen than measurements can reveal. After that, a couple of
adjustments on a frame that was the right size from the start
(something uncommon today), usually achieved a lifetime fit because a
skilled eye can recognize a position that is effective and
comfortable.
Jobst Brandt
John Forrest Tomlinson
<chalo....@gmail.com> wrote:
>There are literally billions of bike riders out there, and by far most
>of agree with me in their choices of handlebars. All those Chinese
>and Indians who ride bike? They'd relate to what I do, but they'd
>probably think you were crazy.
Yeah, I know -- I lived in China for a couple years and used my bike
for shopping almost daily. And no, they didn't think I was crazy to
be on a bike with drop bars -- at least that's not what I heard.
People who commented on my bike thought I liked riding long distances
fast.
Oh, and I'd lived in China for a summer earlier and had a standard
Chinese bike. When I moved back I knew a bike with drop bars would
work fine for me.
What you seem to understand is that because one sort of bike is good
for many people, it's correct for most or all people. Or because some
type of bike is bad for some people (say, a bike with dropped bars),
it's no good for anyone.
John Forrest Tomlinson
>I am disappointed in the wide Fit Kit use,
Is the Fit Kit still in wide use? I'm not aware of any shop in my
city (New York City) that still uses it. Some use other measurement
systems.
Kerry Montgomery
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:gp42hb$vk5$1...@news.motzarella.org...
Andrew,
Not to give it away, but doing a Google search for:
"If your present bike is ten years old or older, it is time to replace it.
The upgrades you do will usually cost more than the bike is worth."
will take you there.
Kerry
Tom Sherman
I have been in stores where a member of the sales staff would not even
discuss certain bicycles on the display floor, since they were not in
HIS interest. This usually happens when the shop hires an aspiring racer
who is mainly interested in wholesale pricing of parts. If is not a
racing bicycle (of their preferred type), they will dismiss it out of hand.
A good LBS should at least discuss the shorting comings of a dedicated
racing bicycle for all around use.
jwbinpdx
wrote:
No argument there. What I find is that in most stores, the sales
person asks what the customer wants the bike for, and then the
conversation goes from there -- usually in an effort to find a
reasonable and suitable bike.
I see the escalation occur in upscale stores when the customer
pretends to know it all and makes bold assertions like "I need wheels
that let me climb like a monkey, and the Roval Spews do not make me
feel nearly as simian as the Topolino Gravitrons." The sales person
says something like, "but the Topolinos will only allow you to climb
like a tired macaque and not an energetic spider monkey. For that,
you need the Mavic Kseros with alamabuxargon spokes. Lance used them
as his secret weapon. " (you have to have someone credible vouch for
the product)." Not to be one upped, the customer says something like
"Is that so? The Dutch press was not that excited about them, at
least from what I read in Der Vander Tour, which put them well down on
the monkey scale, maybe a capuchin on a good day." It's sort of like
watching the prarie chickens puff up and strut around and is just as
entertaining. -- Jay Beattie.
landotter
Hey, don't give it away now. ;-)
I'm not a huge fan of the shop--but they serve their upscale
clientele--and be fair, when you see guys in shop team kit from over
there, they're some of the most cordial and fast dudes on the road.
So, good ambassadors, but a shitty selection of dinosaur shaped
squeakers.
SMS
> Short answer, I think most people have their bars too low. It makes the
> bike look sporty, but they then can't comfortably ride in the (even
> shallow) drops.
I don't think they don't have their bars too low simply because it looks
sporty, they have them too low because that's the way the manufacturers
sell the bike to them, with almost no extra length and spacers on the
steer tube. So to get the bars to the proper level they need to either
use a headset extender or buy an adjustable height threadless stem. The
former looks terrible and the latter is very costly.
landotter
That's a reason I love my LBS. Last Saturday they sent a guy to an
unliked but not horrible competitor because he had his heart set on a
certain Trek model, because you should dang well get what you want,
and the path bike he wanted from Trek was just the thing. He came back
an hour later and spent $1000 on a superduper trailer for the kids and
a bunch of accessories because he preferred the service over here.
Tom Ace
> Not to give it away, but doing a Google search for:
> "If your present bike is ten years old or older, it is time to replace it.
> The upgrades you do will usually cost more than the bike is worth."
> will take you there.
And using Babelfish to translate the shop's name
from Italian->English gives a result reminiscent of
a Spinal Tap song title.
Tom Ace
Chalo
>
> In very rough terrain, such as washboard on a dirt road, you
> can hold the drops loosely and get a suspension effect without being
> in any danger of losing control of the bar.
In very rough terrain, the bends above the drops can hammer your
wrists to a pulp. This I know from personal experience!
Chalo
Peter Cole
I don't know, perhaps first-time buyers might make the mistake of buying
a bike with too low bars, but you'd think an experienced rider would
insist on a bike with perfect fit. I know I would.
Tom Sherman
If I get another upright road bike, I will get it from a shop that is
willing to switch out stems, handlebars, seat posts and saddles to get
the fit right from the start. If the shop can't or won't do that, one
might as well buy online.
Coaster
I am sorry now you have a pulp instead of your wirsts... ;-)
I use drop bars in my bicycles for almost thirty years in every terrain
and to me it is the most comfortable and reliable bicycle bar...
--
PoZdR
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"More experienced cyclists learn to "get light"
for a fraction of a second while going over rough
patches; newbies tend to sit harder on the saddle,
increasing the risk of pinch flats."
Sheldon Brown: 1944 - 2008
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > Bret wrote:
> >>
> >> In very rough terrain, such as washboard on a dirt road, you
> >> can hold the drops loosely and get a suspension effect without being
> >> in any danger of losing control of the bar.
>
> > In very rough terrain, the bends above the drops can hammer your
> > wrists to a pulp. This I know from personal experience!
>
> I am sorry now you have a pulp instead of your wirsts... ;-)
> I use drop bars in my bicycles for almost thirty years in every terrain
> and to me it is the most comfortable and reliable bicycle bar...
Well, I'll be waiting for them to take the two-wheeled world from
Beijing to Dakar by storm, then.
Chalo
Michael Press
<7e2da7cd-f4e1-4d3b...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
"russell...@yahoo.com" <russell...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mar 9, 7:49 am, "andresm...@aol.com" <andresm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 8, 11:07 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > SMS schreef:
> >
> > > > Yesterday on my ride across the GG bridge and into Marin county,
> > > > probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
> > > > non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
> > > > fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
> > > > the drop position. Since parts of the GG bridge path are quite narrow,
> > > > and there are a lot of inexperienced and unpredictable riders out there,
> > > > I saw a lot of maneuvers where the road cyclist would scramble to change
> > > > their hand position from the top, down to reach the brake levers.
> >
> > > > I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
> > > > Cane Creek Crosstop levers
> > > > ("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
> > > > riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
> > > > impractical.
> >
> > > > Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> > > > back.
> >
> > > On the hoods should the most comfortable position IMO. In the drops is
> > > for descending when really hard braking in needed or to get in a more
> > > aero position. If your hands are on the hoods there is no problem even
> > > on the Golden Gate bridge and you don't need those goofy safety brakes.
> >
> > I spend quite a long time on the drops and I am quite comfortable on
> > them. Granted that I don't have them half a yard below the saddle. My
> > bars are about an inch below the saddle. So, being on the drops is
> > quite comfortable. Riding alone, at a good speed or against the wind,
> > is is also easier.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Me too. I probably ride 25-35% of the time in the drops. More when
> going into a headwind. But I also notice most bikers do not use the
> drops. Many a ride I've been on riding along in the group into a
> headwind and everyone around me is sitting bolt upright with their
> hands on the hoods catching the wind like a sail. Always seems odd to
> me. My tops are about 3 inches or so below saddle height.
I spend plenty of time at the ends; at low speed too. Over
rough pavement being at the ends absorbs road shock. The
ends are cantilevered and the hooks are good for flexing.
50 mm saddle down to tops.
--
Michael Press
Bret
I've never had any problem with my wrists using drop bars. With the
flat bars on my MTB, my thumbs get very sore from the vibration when I
forget to keep them clamped to the bars in rough terrain.
Bret
SMS
> I don't know, perhaps first-time buyers might make the mistake of buying
> a bike with too low bars, but you'd think an experienced rider would
> insist on a bike with perfect fit. I know I would.
It's much harder to achieve "perfect fit" now than in the past.
Adjusting both height and reach might require a new fork in addition to
a new stem.
Sheldon's solution is one way,
"http://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/brown/pages/01brown-2-bar.htm" but not
everyone will appreciate the level of elegance.
Andre Jute
> Yesterday on my ride across the GG bridge and into Marin county,
> probably saw several thousand cyclists on road bikes (it was the first
> non-rainy day in weeks). One thing that struck me is that for all the
> fancy road bikes with drop bars out there, I never saw anyone riding in
> the drop position. Since parts of the GG bridge path are quite narrow,
> and there are a lot of inexperienced and unpredictable riders out there,
> I saw a lot of maneuvers where the road cyclist would scramble to change
> their hand position from the top, down to reach the brake levers.
>
> I'm surprised that some of these riders don't install something like
> Cane Creek Crosstop levers
> ("http://www.canecreek.com/crosstop-brake-levers.html") for when they're
> riding in urban areas and the drop position is uncomfortable and
> impractical.
>
> Remember "safety brake" extension levers? Maybe those should be brought
> back.
It is probably significant that the billion or so people who ride a
bike because they have to rather than choose to -- all use North Road
style bars. Only those who choose to ride as a lifestyle (i.e.
fashion) statement use drop bars. It is an affectation and, like most
uncomfortable affectations -- self-flagellation for Catholics comes to
mind -- observed in the breach by all except the truly obsessed. --
Andre Jute
Brewster Fong
> Peter Cole wrote:
> > I don't know, perhaps first-time buyers might make the mistake of buying
> > a bike with too low bars, but you'd think an experienced rider would
> > insist on a bike with perfect fit. I know I would.
>
> It's much harder to achieve "perfect fit" now than in the past.
> Adjusting both height and reach might require a new fork in addition to
> a new stem.
>
fit?" If you are starting with a new bike, and assuming it uses a
threadless steerer tube, just don't cut the fork and use alot of
spacers both above and below the stem. Then adjust accordingly. If
your stem needs more height than allowed, you need a bigger bike. If
it uses less steerer tube, then you'll have spacer between the top of
the stem and the headset cap. What's so difficult?
> Sheldon's solution is one way,
> "http://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/brown/pages/01brown-2-bar.htm" but not
> everyone will appreciate the level of elegance.
Agree, not everybody wants or needs this type of setup.
SMS
> On Mar 10, 11:33 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Cole wrote:
>>> I don't know, perhaps first-time buyers might make the mistake of buying
>>> a bike with too low bars, but you'd think an experienced rider would
>>> insist on a bike with perfect fit. I know I would.
>> It's much harder to achieve "perfect fit" now than in the past.
>> Adjusting both height and reach might require a new fork in addition to
>> a new stem.
>>
> I don't get it.
Yes, we see that.
> Why would you need a new fork to achieve a "perfect
> fit?" If you are starting with a new bike, and assuming it uses a
> threadless steerer tube, just don't cut the fork and use alot of
> spacers both above and below the stem.
The manufacturers routinely ship the bikes with the steerer tubes cut
too short.
Peter Cole
> Peter Cole wrote:
>
>> I don't know, perhaps first-time buyers might make the mistake of
>> buying a bike with too low bars, but you'd think an experienced rider
>> would insist on a bike with perfect fit. I know I would.
>
> It's much harder to achieve "perfect fit" now than in the past.
> Adjusting both height and reach might require a new fork in addition to
> a new stem.
Or a different bike. I can't imagine that bike shops could make a living
selling bikes that didn't fit to experienced riders.
jwbinpdx
Then you don't buy that bike. Plus, how often do you raise or lower
your bars? If the bike fits in the showroom, why would you need to
raise or lower the bar by more than a few mms to fine tune? I never
moved my quill stems -- which is one reason they tended to freeze up
in the steerer.
There really is more heighth adjustability these days than 30 years
ago -- back when all you could buy was a Cinelli 1A or some clone.
The Cinelli stem had maybe 30cm of adjustability from center and a -17
drop. Nowadays, you can get a stem with rise, and you can flip it for
drop; you can take the bars out without stripping them first and swap
stems. Get a bunch at Nashbar -- they're cheap. You can add spacers
to get the perfect heighth. It's like a freak'n Fisher Price toy.
And now you can get long stems, up to 150mm. I admit that with
threadless, you cannot use one of those olde-tyme clown stems with the
180mm or so quill, but you can get a steerer extender which does the
same thing. And for touring, no need to pack a bunch of wrenches to
work on the headset.
I don't know why people are so in love with quill stems -- or steel,
or quill stems in steel which can be a real hoot at the end of the
tour when you are trying to dismantle the bike to ship it home. I
have fond memories of beating my bike to death in a barn, trying to
get the stem to move so I could put the bike in a box and ship it home
on the plane. If I had access to a hack saw, I would have used it. --
Jay Beattie.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>It's much harder to achieve "perfect fit" now than in the past.
>Adjusting both height and reach might require a new fork in addition to
>a new stem.
I think the opposite - it's easier nowadays with threadless steerers.
There is a huge variety of stems out there that can be flipped to
allow a lot of drop or a lot of rise.
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
And that wasn't a problem back in the day? With far less variety in
quill length?
No, it was more of a problem.
SMS
> And that wasn't a problem back in the day?
Less of a problem because of the availability of quill stems with
different length and different reach.
> With far less variety in quill length?
You have no idea what you're talking about. Even now there is a
sufficiently wide variety of quill stem lengths available, i.e. the
Nitto Technomic Deluxe, available in 6 different lengths.
In any case, there are workarounds to the bar height issue. There are
the threadless stem extenders which are popular and low cost, and there
are (at least) three different adjustable height thread less stems, but
they are not easily available in the U.S..
John Forrest Tomlinson
wrote:
>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> And that wasn't a problem back in the day?
>
>Less of a problem because of the availability of quill stems with
>different length and different reach.
>
>> With far less variety in quill length?
>
>You have no idea what you're talking about. Even now there is a
>sufficiently wide variety of quill stem lengths available, i.e. the
>Nitto Technomic Deluxe, available in 6 different lengths.
>
One stem, in a couple quality levels and six lengths is variety?
You have no idea what you're talking about if you put that up against
the massive variety of stems fiting threadless steerer tubes.
Particularly when you consider ones that can face far far upwards.