Stuck threads

[James]

In an old 853 lugged frame with horizontal dropouts, the wheel position
adjustment screws seem well stuck. There's the knurled end that I've
tried to move, but fear I'll snap off if I excerpt more force, and the
slotted end with the spring behind that I've tried turning with a flat
blade screwdriver - but again fear snapping it. I've soaked them in
WD40 type stuff, and even applied a little heat, but can't get the
threads to budge.

What's the best way? More heat until the paint is burned off, then
chill the adjustment screw before attempting to move it?

All advice welcome - except methods that involve dead chickens or other
animals.

--
JS

[AMuzi]

There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
favorite but seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.

Yes, moderate heat may help even below paint burning values.
Don't get excited and break off the screw, it's only 3mm.
When do you try to turn it, grasp both ends together and
don't twist too hard. Work in both directions; when or if it
moves, your lubricant will penetrate more and you'll win
eventually.

A drill is more likely to make a bad situation worse than to
help in any way.

If you are committed both to moving it and saving the paint,
look in your area for a machine shop offering EDM service.
Works like magic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Z5WZqYl_aZ8

We use antisieze paste on these and you should too.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[James]

Thanks, Andrew. Will try your suggestions.

--
JS.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:57:38 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
>favorite but seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.

WD40 is good for displacing water and lousy for a zillion other
purposes. Liquid wrench is no better. I don't recall ever breaking
loose a threaded part using only WD40. Get a decent penetrating oil
that's designed to break up the rust. I "borrowed" a can of this
stuff from one of my auto shop clients:
<http://www.blastercorporation.com/PB_Blaster.html>
It works too well to give it back. For extremely stuck bolts, I
soaked some of the solvent in cotton, wrapped it around the part, and
sealed the mess (to prevent evaporation) in a plastic bag. It seems
to take at least 15 minutes to break loose anything that's really
stuck.

You could also mix your own concoction:
<http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/>
I haven't tried that one.

One trick I've seen used, but have not tried, is to use one of those
ultrasonic vibrating cutting tool to vibrate the stuck bolt while
applying slightly less than brute force to the bolt. Something like
one of these:
<http://www.harborfreight.com/variable-speed-multifunction-power-tool-67537.html>
(I use an ultrasonic dental scaler for the purpose on small screws).
The idea is to "crumble" the rust, so that it releases. It also
assists capillary action in penetrating the fastener. It's more
appropriate for larger bolts, but you might be able to adapt the idea
for your purpose. I've wanted to build (and sell) an ultrasonically
assisted socket wrench for similar purposes.


--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[James]

Thanks, Jeff. The stuff I used was actually Penetrene, which is sort of
like WD40, but supposed to be a penetrating oil - I guess not enough.

I'll try to find something that is better suited to breaking up rust.

--
JS.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 11:39:15 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> <http://www.blastercorporation.com/PB_Blaster.html>

>Thanks, Jeff. The stuff I used was actually Penetrene, which is sort of
>like WD40, but supposed to be a penetrating oil - I guess not enough.
>
>I'll try to find something that is better suited to breaking up rust.

Look for something that contains a phosphate compound that attacks the
rust. The Blaster stuff contains 3% Dinonylphenol, ethoxylated and
phosphated as a "catalyst". It's not a catalyst. It reacts with the
iron oxide (rust) and forms iron phosphate, which is soluable in
acidic water. It's the basis of the various "rust reformers" on the
market used to allow painting over rusted surfaces and restoring iron
achaelogical artifacts. Grease and oil will stop the reaction, so
clean the area thoroughly before attacking.

[thirty-six]

PlusGas

[thirty-six]

On May 13, 2:39 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/05/13 11:26, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 12 May 2013 18:57:38 -0500, AMuzi<a...@yellowjersey.org>  wrote:
>
> >> There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
> >> favorite but seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.
>
> > WD40 is good for displacing water and lousy for a zillion other
> > purposes.  Liquid wrench is no better.  I don't recall ever breaking
> > loose a threaded part using only WD40.  Get a decent penetrating oil
> > that's designed to break up the rust.  I "borrowed" a can of this
> > stuff from one of my auto shop clients:
> > <http://www.blastercorporation.com/PB_Blaster.html>
> > It works too well to give it back.  For extremely stuck bolts, I
> > soaked some of the solvent in cotton, wrapped it around the part, and
> > sealed the mess (to prevent evaporation) in a plastic bag.  It seems
> > to take at least 15 minutes to break loose anything that's really
> > stuck.
>
> > You could also mix your own concoction:
> > <http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/>
> > I haven't tried that one.
>
> > One trick I've seen used, but have not tried, is to use one of those
> > ultrasonic vibrating cutting tool to vibrate the stuck bolt while
> > applying slightly less than brute force to the bolt.  Something like
> > one of these:

> > <http://www.harborfreight.com/variable-speed-multifunction-power-tool-...>

> > (I use an ultrasonic dental scaler for the purpose on small screws).
> > The idea is to "crumble" the rust, so that it releases.  It also
> > assists capillary action in penetrating the fastener.  It's more
> > appropriate for larger bolts, but you might be able to adapt the idea
> > for your purpose.  I've wanted to build (and sell) an ultrasonically
> > assisted socket wrench for similar purposes.
>
> Thanks, Jeff.  The stuff I used was actually Penetrene, which is sort of
> like WD40, but supposed to be a penetrating oil - I guess not enough.
>
> I'll try to find something that is better suited to breaking up rust.
>
> --
> JS.

also phosphoric acid, aka coca cola.

[thirty-six]

even strong cider vinegar should do it (it descales rust well)

[Dan O]

Have you got an impact driver?

[James]

No.

--
JS

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Dan O <danov...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Have you got an impact driver?

It's a 3mm screw and will probably break off if he hits it with a
driver.

[Dan O]

On May 12, 11:55 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Dan O <danover...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> >Have you got an impact driver?
>
> It's a 3mm screw and will probably break off if he hits it with a
> driver.
>

Not if he hits it straight.

[Dan O]

BTW, I thought your vibration idea was good - and along the same lines
in principle of solution.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 May 2013 23:59:42 -0700 (PDT), Dan O <danov...@gmail.com>

wrote:

>On May 12, 11:58 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 12, 11:55 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, 12 May 2013 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Dan O <danover...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > >Have you got an impact driver?
>>
>> > It's a 3mm screw and will probably break off if he hits it with a
>> > driver.
>>
>> Not if he hits it straight.

I look at it in terms of benefit versus risk. The risk of breaking it
off and having to use EDM to remove the broken off bolt is too high.
If it were possible to simply drill out the broken screw, I would
maybe consider it a worthwhile risk, but that's not going to happen
with a 3mm screw. Solvent attack and gentle pressure might be slow,
but they will eventually loosen the screw.

>BTW, I thought your vibration idea was good - and along the same lines
>in principle of solution.

Thanks. I've been using a electric tooth brush to simulate an impact
driver on a small nut wrench. Combined with some noxious solvents
(acetone and MEK), I've been getting good results at breaking loose
small nuts. The problem here is different because the manufacturer
glued the fasteners in place to block any attempt to repair their
unit. The solvents soften the glue, while the ultrasonics supply a
mild pounding. I was thinking of something similar for removing the
dropout adjusting screw, but hitting it with an impact driver would be
like beating on it with a big hammer. It's the right idea, but much
too big a hammer.

[John B.]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 09:18:34 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Try mixing up acetone and ATF (auto transmission fluid) 50 - 50 and
use that as penetrating oil. It is probably the best penetrating oil
available. The secret is that with the acetone it can seep into very
small spaces and after the acetone evaporates it leaves an oil to
lubricate things - WD-40 is largely just a kerosene type substance and
while it works to a certain extent it isn't exactly mind boggling.

Someone posted a test of various "penetrating oils" as follows

Torque necessary to loosen a rusted fastening:
No lubricant 516 Ft. Lbs.
WD-40 238
Liquid Wrench 127
Acetone-ATF 52
--
Cheers,

John B.

[rove...@bigpond.net.au]

FWIW, I had good results on exactly the same sort of screw using Loctite Freeze and Release aerosol
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=151&item=50116&intAbsolutePage=
This is just one Australian supplier. I find it in my local Home Hardware.

PH

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 13 May 2013 08:17:44 -0700 (PDT), rove...@bigpond.net.au
wrote:

>FWIW, I had good results on exactly the same sort of screw using Loctite Freeze and Release aerosol
>https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=151&item=50116&intAbsolutePage=
>This is just one Australian supplier. I find it in my local Home Hardware.

Hmmm...
<http://www.loctitefreezeandrelease.com/pdf/freeze&ReleaseMSDS.pdf>
MSDS shows that it's only solvents, mostly naphtha and kerosene. No
phosphates to attack the rust directly. Zep Twister is roughly the
same stuff with some more solvents:
<http://www.zep.com/ZepSearch/default1.aspx?search=Penetrants&num=20&match=Exact&country=U>

I think I can guess(tm) how it works. In order for capillary action
to suck the mix into the rusted area, the surface tension of the
solvent must be reduced or at least minimized. Oil will increase the
surface tension, thus blocking capillary. The solvents dilute the
oils sufficiently for some capillary action to happen. When the
solvents evaporates, capillary action stops, but the lubricants are
already inside the rusted area. It seems like a mix of mostly
solvents, and very little oil, such as the aforementioned naphtha and
kerosene mix, would work nicely. Both contain a small amount of
paraffin wax lubricants. That acetone-ATF mix should also work, but
the 50-50 proportions are all wrong. My guess(tm) is about 90%
solvent and 10% (or less) oil would be better.

[T0m $herman]

On 5/12/2013 6:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a favorite but
> seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.

I thought you liked Rock & Roll™ as a penetrating lubricant?

--
T0m $herm@n

[Ian Field]

"Jeff Liebermann" <je...@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:bfh0p85vki7tnardr...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 13 May 2013 11:39:15 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> <http://www.blastercorporation.com/PB_Blaster.html>
>
>>Thanks, Jeff. The stuff I used was actually Penetrene, which is sort of
>>like WD40, but supposed to be a penetrating oil - I guess not enough.
>>
>>I'll try to find something that is better suited to breaking up rust.
>
> Look for something that contains a phosphate compound that attacks the
> rust.

The phosphoric-acid rust converters turn the rust into a phosphate compound
rather than removing it.

My favourite penetrating oil is GT85 which is fortified with PTFE friction
modifier.

Sometimes there is no other way than really heating it - quench it with a
jet of GT85 and wade in as soon as its cooled enough to handle.

There's too many reasons to list why you should replace whatever you're
trying to remove with a new one!

Whenever I encounter something that's such a PITA to remove - its always a
good excuse to use Copper-ease on re-assembly.

[Ian Field]

"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2bbb2f68-32b1-4073...@q8g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

Vinegar would probably take a few weeks!

Some building supplies depts sell a very strong acid for darkening brick
work - I use it as flux for soldering stainless steel, but I have to keep
the soldering iron bit well tinned or it etches the iron plating off the
bit.

One of the household cleaner/descaler adverts was boasting their product
also shifted rust stains from concrete paving - limescale busting bog
cleaner is probably a lot stronger.

I'd leave etching the rust as a very last resort - acids tend to penetrate
the metal surface and cause persistent corrosion problems in the future, you
can't just wash it off - you have to completely neutralise it!

[T0m $herman]

On 5/13/2013 3:47 PM, Ian Field wrote:
> There's too many reasons to list why you should replace whatever you're
> trying to remove with a new one!

Not on a bicycle, but I replaced the entire Class III hitch on a
pick-em-truck due to a rusted in receiver (was that way when I bought it
used). A couple of days soaking in penetrating lubricant, followed by
backing the truck up into a empty loading dock at ~5 mph failed to budge
it - 2 tons was not a big enough hammer.

--
T0m $herm@n

[AMuzi]

On 5/13/2013 3:02 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
> On 5/12/2013 6:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
>> favorite but
>> seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.
>

> I thought you liked Rock & Rollâ„¢ as a penetrating lubricant?
>

That's also nice.
There are a host of good things but WD40 is not one of them.

[AMuzi]

On 5/13/2013 3:02 PM, T0m $herman wrote:

> On 5/12/2013 6:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
>> favorite but
>> seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.
>

> I thought you liked Rock & Rollâ„¢ as a penetrating lubricant?
>

p.s.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/stukmk2.jpg

shows a Rock-N-Roll enhanced victory over a seatpost for an
accomplished cyclist with many racing accomplishments but
not so much with the regular maintenance.

You can see that penetration is good but not 100%.

[James]

Thanks.

--
JS.

[James]

Thanks, Mate.

--
JS.

[David Scheidt]

Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
:On Mon, 13 May 2013 08:17:44 -0700 (PDT), rove...@bigpond.net.au

:wrote:

:>FWIW, I had good results on exactly the same sort of screw using Loctite Freeze and Release aerosol
:>https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=151&item=50116&intAbsolutePage=
:>This is just one Australian supplier. I find it in my local Home Hardware.

:Hmmm...
:<http://www.loctitefreezeandrelease.com/pdf/freeze&ReleaseMSDS.pdf>
:MSDS shows that it's only solvents, mostly naphtha and kerosene. No
:phosphates to attack the rust directly. Zep Twister is roughly the

Remember, MSDS are "safety data" sheets, not "reverse engineer data"
sheets. If it's not there in a large enough quanitity to be
reportable, or is exempt, it won't be listed.

:same stuff with some more solvents:
:<http://www.zep.com/ZepSearch/default1.aspx?search=Penetrants&num=20&match=Exact&country=U>

:kerosene mix, would work nicely. Both contain a small amount of

:paraffin wax lubricants. That acetone-ATF mix should also work, but
:the 50-50 proportions are all wrong. My guess(tm) is about 90%
:solvent and 10% (or less) oil would be better.

acetone and atf doesn't actually work very well, in my experience.
Purpose made solvents do a
better job. But acetone will wick a small amount of the oil into the
threads, which does do something.





--
sig 50

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:18:34 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
> In an old 853 lugged frame with horizontal dropouts, the wheel position
>
> adjustment screws seem well stuck. There's the knurled end that I've
>
> tried to move, but fear I'll snap off if I excerpt more force, and the
>
> slotted end with the spring behind that I've tried turning with a flat
>
> blade screwdriver - but again fear snapping it. I've soaked them in
>
> WD40 type stuff, and even applied a little heat, but can't get the
>
> threads to budge.
>
>
>
> What's the best way? More heat until the paint is burned off, then
>
> chill the adjustment screw before attempting to move it?
>
>
>
> All advice welcome - except methods that involve dead chickens or other
>
> animals.
>
>
>

> --
>
> JS

Hi there.

Just a hint in case you're not doing it. I'd prop the bike up so that the adjuster bolt you're applying and penetrating solution to is vertical instead of horizontal. That'll give the solution the most timeto work. Hmm, can you slip a tube over the bolt and seal the tube where it meets the dropout? Then you could fill the tube with the pentrating solution and the tube filled with solution will act as a reservoir.

BTW, even though you're not using it, WD-40 is code foe Water Displacement formula #40.

Hope something works for you. Good luck.

Cheers

[James]

On 14/05/13 12:49, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Sunday, May 12, 2013 7:18:34 PM UTC-4, James wrote:
>> In an old 853 lugged frame with horizontal dropouts, the wheel position
>>
>> adjustment screws seem well stuck. There's the knurled end that I've
>>
>> tried to move, but fear I'll snap off if I excerpt more force, and the
>>
>> slotted end with the spring behind that I've tried turning with a flat
>>
>> blade screwdriver - but again fear snapping it. I've soaked them in
>>
>> WD40 type stuff, and even applied a little heat, but can't get the
>>
>> threads to budge.
>>
>>
>>
>> What's the best way? More heat until the paint is burned off, then
>>
>> chill the adjustment screw before attempting to move it?
>>
>>
>>
>> All advice welcome - except methods that involve dead chickens or other
>>
>> animals.
>>
>

> Hi there.
>
> Just a hint in case you're not doing it. I'd prop the bike up so that the adjuster bolt you're applying and penetrating solution to is vertical instead of horizontal. That'll give the solution the most timeto work. Hmm, can you slip a tube over the bolt and seal the tube where it meets the dropout? Then you could fill the tube with the pentrating solution and the tube filled with solution will act as a reservoir.
>
> BTW, even though you're not using it, WD-40 is code foe Water Displacement formula #40.
>
> Hope something works for you. Good luck.
>

Thanks. I think there is a combo of paint and rust in there. Think
I'll try some rust converting penetrating substance, and soak the area
by taping a plastic bag of the stuff over the dropout or something.

--
JS.

[Ian Field]

"AMuzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:kmrmt4$mut$1...@dont-email.me...

> On 5/13/2013 3:02 PM, T0m $herman wrote:
>> On 5/12/2013 6:57 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> There are better penetrants such as Delco (everyone has a
>>> favorite but
>>> seldom WD40). Some guys prefer ammonia.
>>
>> I thought you liked Rock & Rollâ„¢ as a penetrating lubricant?
>>
>
> That's also nice.
> There are a host of good things but WD40 is not one of them.

There's a local back street bodger car mechanic near me who buys WD40 by the
gallon.

I once watched him spray the top of an engine and give it a wipe over with a
soft rag - he explained; "it makes it look like I've done something".