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Salsa Delgado 700c Rim: Cracks?
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(PeteCresswell)
May 30, 2012, 5:51:54 PM5/30/12
to
Just went to replace a broken spoke on the rear wheel and...
Sheesh!.... Beau coups cracks in the rim.
I've built most of my wheels myself, but have never seen anything
like this - or, for that matter, any rim cracks at all. This
wheel has also broken about a half-dozen spokes so far - and I
don't think I've broken more than two or three spokes across all
my other bikes in the past 10+ years.
But this one is on my rigid bike and I weigh 200+... curb
hopping, and all that.
But still, this wheel is not that old - maybe a year or two max,
and I have to wonder if maybe I did something wrong in the build.
The cracks are about evenly distributed left/right and not
concentrated in any area of the rim. 12 nipples affected plus
the sidewall crack visible here: http://tinyurl.com/7cqapmg
I mainly run 38's on it. It's so wide bc I want the option of
running Big Apples.
IIRC, I was pretty attentive to tension - using a tensiometer.
Is there an error that typically results in this?
Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
--
Pete Cresswell
Sheesh!.... Beau coups cracks in the rim.
I've built most of my wheels myself, but have never seen anything
like this - or, for that matter, any rim cracks at all. This
wheel has also broken about a half-dozen spokes so far - and I
don't think I've broken more than two or three spokes across all
my other bikes in the past 10+ years.
But this one is on my rigid bike and I weigh 200+... curb
hopping, and all that.
But still, this wheel is not that old - maybe a year or two max,
and I have to wonder if maybe I did something wrong in the build.
The cracks are about evenly distributed left/right and not
concentrated in any area of the rim. 12 nipples affected plus
the sidewall crack visible here: http://tinyurl.com/7cqapmg
I mainly run 38's on it. It's so wide bc I want the option of
running Big Apples.
IIRC, I was pretty attentive to tension - using a tensiometer.
Is there an error that typically results in this?
Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
--
Pete Cresswell
Jay Beattie
May 30, 2012, 7:04:55 PM5/30/12
to
spoke holes, then you have too much tension -- or a defective rim.
What sort of spoke tension are you running?
-- Jay Beattie.
James
May 30, 2012, 7:43:15 PM5/30/12
to
On 31/05/12 07:51, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Just went to replace a broken spoke on the rear wheel and...
> Sheesh!.... Beau coups cracks in the rim.
>
> I've built most of my wheels myself, but have never seen anything
> like this - or, for that matter, any rim cracks at all. This
> wheel has also broken about a half-dozen spokes so far - and I
> don't think I've broken more than two or three spokes across all
> my other bikes in the past 10+ years.
>
> But this one is on my rigid bike and I weigh 200+... curb
> hopping, and all that.
>
> But still, this wheel is not that old - maybe a year or two max,
> and I have to wonder if maybe I did something wrong in the build.
>
> The cracks are about evenly distributed left/right and not
> concentrated in any area of the rim. 12 nipples affected plus
> the sidewall crack visible here: http://tinyurl.com/7cqapmg
I get "Sorry, that page was not found."
> Just went to replace a broken spoke on the rear wheel and...
> Sheesh!.... Beau coups cracks in the rim.
>
> I've built most of my wheels myself, but have never seen anything
> like this - or, for that matter, any rim cracks at all. This
> wheel has also broken about a half-dozen spokes so far - and I
> don't think I've broken more than two or three spokes across all
> my other bikes in the past 10+ years.
>
> But this one is on my rigid bike and I weigh 200+... curb
> hopping, and all that.
>
> But still, this wheel is not that old - maybe a year or two max,
> and I have to wonder if maybe I did something wrong in the build.
>
> The cracks are about evenly distributed left/right and not
> concentrated in any area of the rim. 12 nipples affected plus
> the sidewall crack visible here: http://tinyurl.com/7cqapmg
> I mainly run 38's on it. It's so wide bc I want the option of
> running Big Apples.
>
> IIRC, I was pretty attentive to tension - using a tensiometer.
>
> Is there an error that typically results in this?
>
> Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
http://www.excelsports.com/main.asp?page=8&description=Delgado+Cross+Rim+700c+32+hole&vendorCode=SALSA&major=1&minor=25
The first two reviews were not good. Both had problems similar to you.
From a quick look, I don't like the shape at all. The flat spoke bed
is not desirable to support the spoke tension. I'd prefer a deeper rim
so that the rim has more strength to distribute load over more spokes,
and the rim wall is more in line with the spoke tension.
--
JS.
(PeteCresswell)
May 30, 2012, 8:47:37 PM5/30/12
to
Per Jay Beattie:
I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
new albums.
You sb able to see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell
>Pete, the picture does not come up
Mea Culpa.
I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
new albums.
You sb able to see it now.
--
Pete Cresswell
Jay Beattie
May 30, 2012, 9:25:01 PM5/30/12
to
thereabouts, then that rim is a POS. James faults the rim for having a
flat spoke bed, but that design was common thirty years ago and worked
fine -- although the equivalent rim -- let's say a Superchampion Mod
58 weighed almost 100 grams more. So it may no longer be a fine design
in a light-ish rim on a 130mm hub with a huge imbalance in tension
from right to left.
http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCDD68EED8BB&Enum=107&AbsPos=14
The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
IMO, it's all about weight, spoke gauge and spoke goop. If a rim is
too light to stay true without spoke-hole cracking tensions, then you
have to go to a heavier rim -- or go with lower spoke tensions.
thinner spokes and thread goop. That Delgado is not in the stupid
light category, although it's pretty light for a 29er rim getting hard
use. You could probably re-build the same rim with lower tension and
some spoke goop and be fine, but you may also want to consider
something a little beefier. Finding a deep dish rim with the same ERD
that you can swap to, though, will be impossible. Prepare to buy new
spokes, too.
-- Jay Beattie.
James
May 30, 2012, 10:16:48 PM5/30/12
to
On 31/05/12 11:25, Jay Beattie wrote:
> On May 30, 5:47 pm, "(PeteCresswell)"<x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> Per Jay Beattie:
>>
>>> Pete, the picture does not come up
>>
>> Mea Culpa.
>>
>> I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
>> new albums.
>>
>> You sb able to see it now.
>> --
>> Pete Cresswell
>
> Yup, too much tension for that rim -- and if you used 100kgf or
> thereabouts, then that rim is a POS. James faults the rim for having a
> flat spoke bed, but that design was common thirty years ago and worked
> fine -- although the equivalent rim -- let's say a Superchampion Mod
> 58 weighed almost 100 grams more. So it may no longer be a fine design
> in a light-ish rim on a 130mm hub with a huge imbalance in tension
> from right to left.
And possibly fewer spokes. I don't think Pete mentioned number of spokes?
> On May 30, 5:47 pm, "(PeteCresswell)"<x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>> Per Jay Beattie:
>>
>>> Pete, the picture does not come up
>>
>> Mea Culpa.
>>
>> I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
>> new albums.
>>
>> You sb able to see it now.
>> --
>> Pete Cresswell
>
> Yup, too much tension for that rim -- and if you used 100kgf or
> thereabouts, then that rim is a POS. James faults the rim for having a
> flat spoke bed, but that design was common thirty years ago and worked
> fine -- although the equivalent rim -- let's say a Superchampion Mod
> 58 weighed almost 100 grams more. So it may no longer be a fine design
> in a light-ish rim on a 130mm hub with a huge imbalance in tension
> from right to left.
> http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCDD68EED8BB&Enum=107&AbsPos=14
>
> The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> IMO, it's all about weight, spoke gauge and spoke goop. If a rim is
> too light to stay true without spoke-hole cracking tensions, then you
> have to go to a heavier rim -- or go with lower spoke tensions.
> thinner spokes and thread goop. That Delgado is not in the stupid
> light category, although it's pretty light for a 29er rim getting hard
> use. You could probably re-build the same rim with lower tension and
> some spoke goop and be fine, but you may also want to consider
> something a little beefier. Finding a deep dish rim with the same ERD
> that you can swap to, though, will be impossible. Prepare to buy new
> spokes, too.
cheaper than any here I've found, provided I spent enough to get free
shipping, which wasn't difficult when I added a pair of rims.
--
JS.
thirty-six
May 30, 2012, 10:41:02 PM5/30/12
to
>
> Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
(15swg would likely be ample but just to make sure), boiled linseed
oil on the threads and no more than sufficient spoke tension to enable
good wheel tracking.
(PeteCresswell)
May 31, 2012, 10:13:24 AM5/31/12
to
Per Jay Beattie:
>...spoke goop...
Lubricant?
> Finding a deep dish rim with the same ERD that you can swap
> to, though, will be impossible. Prepare to buy new spokes, too.
That's part of what was behind my grasping for some other reason
than the rim as the cause.
Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
side.
--
Pete Cresswell
>...spoke goop...
Lubricant?
> Finding a deep dish rim with the same ERD that you can swap
> to, though, will be impossible. Prepare to buy new spokes, too.
than the rim as the cause.
Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
side.
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
May 31, 2012, 10:13:39 AM5/31/12
to
Per James:
--
Pete Cresswell
>And possibly fewer spokes. I don't think Pete mentioned number of spokes?
32
--
Pete Cresswell
Jay Beattie
May 31, 2012, 10:38:23 AM5/31/12
to
On May 31, 7:13 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Per Jay Beattie:
>
> >...spoke goop...
>
> Lubricant?
A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
> Per Jay Beattie:
>
> >...spoke goop...
>
> Lubricant?
Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.
>
> > Finding a deep dish rim with the same ERD that you can swap
> > to, though, will be impossible. Prepare to buy new spokes, too.
>
> That's part of what was behind my grasping for some other reason
> than the rim as the cause.
>
> Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
> measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
> and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
> side.
cracking. Err on the low side, and the wheel does not stay true. The
problem these days is that the recommended tension (usually 100-115
kgf) is the manufacturer's guess at what the rim can tolerate but is
not necessarily what will keep the wheel true. This is where Jobst's
book kind of falls flat these days (at least the first edition, which
is the one I own) because it recommends winding up spoke tension to
temporarily rim deforming levels then backing off a little to come up
with a tension that will prevent the spokes in the contact area from
detensioning and rattling loose. That kind of tension will crack
modern, light rims. Now you have to go with the manufacturers'
recommend number and combat loosening by using some sort of thread
lock -- or what I call spoke goop.
-- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six
May 31, 2012, 10:29:11 AM5/31/12
to
On May 31, 2:25 am, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On May 30, 5:47 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
> > Per Jay Beattie:
>
> > >Pete, the picture does not come up
>
> > Mea Culpa.
>
> > I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
> > new albums.
>
> > You sb able to see it now.
> > --
> > Pete Cresswell
>
> Yup, too much tension for that rim -- and if you used 100kgf or
> thereabouts, then that rim is a POS. James faults the rim for having a
> flat spoke bed, but that design was common thirty years ago and worked
> fine -- although the equivalent rim -- let's say a Superchampion Mod
> 58 weighed almost 100 grams more. So it may no longer be a fine design
> in a light-ish rim on a 130mm hub with a huge imbalance in tension
> from right to left.
>
> http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCD...
> On May 30, 5:47 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
> > Per Jay Beattie:
>
> > >Pete, the picture does not come up
>
> > Mea Culpa.
>
> > I keep forgetting that Picassa defaults to restricted view for
> > new albums.
>
> > You sb able to see it now.
> > --
> > Pete Cresswell
>
> Yup, too much tension for that rim -- and if you used 100kgf or
> thereabouts, then that rim is a POS. James faults the rim for having a
> flat spoke bed, but that design was common thirty years ago and worked
> fine -- although the equivalent rim -- let's say a Superchampion Mod
> 58 weighed almost 100 grams more. So it may no longer be a fine design
> in a light-ish rim on a 130mm hub with a huge imbalance in tension
> from right to left.
>
>
> The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> IMO, it's all about weight, spoke gauge and spoke goop. If a rim is
> too light to stay true without spoke-hole cracking tensions, then you
Your presumption that a bicycle wheel should perform as a banjo is
> The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> IMO, it's all about weight, spoke gauge and spoke goop. If a rim is
> too light to stay true without spoke-hole cracking tensions, then you
erroneous.
> have to go to a heavier rim -- or go with lower spoke tensions.
> thinner spokes and thread goop.
utilise lower spoke tensions which therefore protect the rim.
David Scheidt
May 31, 2012, 12:22:06 PM5/31/12
to
landotter
May 31, 2012, 12:59:08 PM5/31/12
to
On May 30, 4:51 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
>
> Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
Alex Adventurer if you want black, Alex DM18 if you want silver. Dumb
>
> Rim recommendations for the heavy rider? Fatter, softer tires?
strong, cheap, 600g. I'd do a 42-60mm tire as well--and just be done
with it.
landotter
May 31, 2012, 1:00:53 PM5/31/12
to
Alex recommends this tension, FWIW.
Dan O
May 31, 2012, 1:36:52 PM5/31/12
to
gauge spokes - tight (~125+ kgf drive-side rear, ~100 kgf front)
I am *very*, very hard on these wheels, jumping and riding over almost
anything w/ loaded panniers - and they hold up amazingly.
Would like to try Velocity rims some day, as PW says (IIRC) they build
easily and stay true. These Alex rims seem a little reluctant to get
perfectly true - especially in the vicinity of the joint (stupid high
tension probably not helping).
Tires are 32 mm Vittoria Randonneur Hyper.
You know that road James showed us where the bike path ends with bumpy
looking unpaved shoulder ahead? No problem. Ride over that kind of
stuff and worse every day.
James
May 31, 2012, 6:12:19 PM5/31/12
to
most easily?
This is one reason I chose to use only half the spokes on the NDS - to
increase their static tension to the same as the DS spokes. It's why
many commercial wheels are built with 2:1 on the back wheel, like
Fulcrum and Miche.
After building my rear wheel I contacted Miche to ask if they would
produce a 16/8 hole rear hub. They said not for separate sale unless
they got a big order, but their own wheels use that spoke pattern.
--
JS.
Nate Nagel
May 31, 2012, 6:18:09 PM5/31/12
to
a 16/8 be the exact same thing as a standard 32 hole hub with every
other hole skipped on one side?
I guess the next question would be, what rim would you use with that, a
32h rim with every fourth hole skipped? Or a 24h rim?
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
James
May 31, 2012, 6:32:17 PM5/31/12
to
unused holes were not there.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6797865179/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/6798702185/in/photostream/
> I guess the next question would be, what rim would you use with that, a
> 32h rim with every fourth hole skipped? Or a 24h rim?
The one I used is a fairly deep section (30mm) Al aero rim.
Kinlin XR300
I'm thinking another possibility might be a crows foot (groups of 3
spokes) on the NDS, and regular 3x on the DS, so that you get 16 + 12 = 28.
That would still give higher spoke tension on the NDS spokes, another 4
spokes total, slightly more lateral rigidity (if that is a concern), and
a cool back wheel!
--
JS.
Nate Nagel
May 31, 2012, 6:51:48 PM5/31/12
to
being different, unlike the goofy wheels that came on my Cannondale that
I couldn't true :/
Trying to figure out how to calculate the spoke lengths is making my
brain hurt, however. That might almost be easier done trial and
error... because it wouldn't be *exactly* the same as a 36h cross three
on the DS and 16h cross one on the NDS if you use a 24h rim.
>> I guess the next question would be, what rim would you use with that, a
>> 32h rim with every fourth hole skipped? Or a 24h rim?
>
> A 24h rim.
>
> The one I used is a fairly deep section (30mm) Al aero rim.
>
> Kinlin XR300
>
> I'm thinking another possibility might be a crows foot (groups of 3
> spokes) on the NDS, and regular 3x on the DS, so that you get 16 + 12 = 28.
>
> That would still give higher spoke tension on the NDS spokes, another 4
> spokes total, slightly more lateral rigidity (if that is a concern), and
> a cool back wheel!
Jay Beattie
May 31, 2012, 7:21:52 PM5/31/12
to
rim. Fulcrum and Miche are probably using some pretty beefy rims to
get away with that. Spokes do provide support, and the more spokes,
the more support . . . and vice versa. But maybe I'm just old
fashioned.
-- Jay Beattie.
James
May 31, 2012, 8:20:17 PM5/31/12
to
But yes, I agree that to use fewer (than at least 32) spokes
successfully, you need a stronger rim than, say an OpenPro, for light to
average weight riders.
So I add weight and strength to the rim, loose more weight than I added
to the rim by removing spokes, and I don't need to rely on spoke goop to
stop nipples getting loose.
Mind you, the XR300 rim I chose is not particularly heavy either, at
455g, compared to an OpenPro at 435g.
http://www.c-4shop.com/KinLin-XR-Niobium-Road-Rims-XR.htm
The stronger rim I believe tends to distribute the point load at the
ground better over more spokes.
On the downside, the wheel is probably not ridable if a spoke breaks,
and the inertia is higher.
On the upside, the aerodynamics are better.
As with all engineering decisions, there are compromises and balance to
attain.
FWIW, the Fulcrum Racing 3's, that mine probably compares with weight
wise, doesn't sport a particularly beefy looking rim.
http://www.fulcrumwheels.com/en/collection/road/alu/products/racing-3
Some of my mates ride these year round, are heavier and stronger than
me, and have never needed them to be trued.
--
JS.
thirty-six
Jun 1, 2012, 7:16:18 AM6/1/12
to
exceeded, to give what lifespan?
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 3, 2012, 12:51:20 AM6/3/12
to
On 5/31/2012 9:38 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
> Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.[...]
> A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
Plus you can drink boiled linseed oil if you are Welsh and named Trevor.
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Dan O
Jun 3, 2012, 1:11:21 AM6/3/12
to
On Jun 2, 9:51 pm, "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
trouble with greased spoke threads.
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 5/31/2012 9:38 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
> > Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.[...]
>
> Plus you can drink boiled linseed oil if you are Welsh and named Trevor.
>
I am but a fledgling wheelbuilder, but have much, *much* less windup
> On 5/31/2012 9:38 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
> > Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.[...]
>
> Plus you can drink boiled linseed oil if you are Welsh and named Trevor.
>
trouble with greased spoke threads.
Jay Beattie
Jun 3, 2012, 11:55:30 AM6/3/12
to
wheel and becomes tacky over a few days and stiffer after that. but it
doesn't prevent re-truing, although you have to watch for wind-up
there. I suppose that is a downside, plus you don't have lubrication
between the nipple and the rim, but that is not a big deal unless you
are applying really high torque, which is exactly what you're trying
to avoid. I've built a lot of wheels, but only three so far using
spoke goop (two linseed one teflon pipe dope), and they are working
well without spoke hole cracking. That's the only benefit I'm
expecting -- no cracking. My wheels stayed true but only at tensions
that caused rim cracking.
-- Jay Beattie.
James
Jun 3, 2012, 6:14:55 PM6/3/12
to
On 03/06/12 14:51, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 5/31/2012 9:38 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>> A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
>> Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.[...]
>
> Plus you can drink boiled linseed oil if you are Welsh and named Trevor.
>
And it might stop your nipples from getting loose.
> On 5/31/2012 9:38 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
>> A mild thread lock like boiled linseed oil or Wheelsmith spoke prep.
>> Boiled linseed oil is far cheaper and just as easy to use.[...]
>
> Plus you can drink boiled linseed oil if you are Welsh and named Trevor.
>
--
JS.
Chalo
Jun 3, 2012, 9:08:37 PM6/3/12
to
Dan O wrote:
>
> I'm running Alex Adventurer on my LHT (stock rims). 36 straight (15?)
> gauge spokes - tight (~125+ kgf drive-side rear, ~100 kgf front)
>
> I am *very*, very hard on these wheels, jumping and riding over almost
> anything w/ loaded panniers - and they hold up amazingly.
>
> Would like to try Velocity rims some day, as PW says (IIRC) they build
> easily and stay true. These Alex rims seem a little reluctant to get
> perfectly true - especially in the vicinity of the joint (stupid high
> tension probably not helping).
Velocity rims are mostly perfect and a pleasure to build with. (Some of the fruity colored Deep Vs I have built in the last year or two were not so perfect.)
>
> I'm running Alex Adventurer on my LHT (stock rims). 36 straight (15?)
> gauge spokes - tight (~125+ kgf drive-side rear, ~100 kgf front)
>
> I am *very*, very hard on these wheels, jumping and riding over almost
> anything w/ loaded panniers - and they hold up amazingly.
>
> Would like to try Velocity rims some day, as PW says (IIRC) they build
> easily and stay true. These Alex rims seem a little reluctant to get
> perfectly true - especially in the vicinity of the joint (stupid high
> tension probably not helping).
But I have seen a few cracked Velocity rims. None from Alex.
The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker, B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple in on the end of another spoke.
Chalo
DirtRoadie
Jun 4, 2012, 1:34:39 AM6/4/12
to
On Jun 3, 7:08 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker, B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple in on the end of another spoke.
>
That's one way. Split blade screwdrivers are another.
> The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker, B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple in on the end of another spoke.
>
http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/k36.html
DR
thirty-six
Jun 4, 2012, 4:36:08 AM6/4/12
to
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 4, 2012, 1:59:56 PM6/4/12
to
Per (PeteCresswell):
It may also have something to do with being too cheap to buy a
new set of spokes...... -)
This time I'm going to take notes on the build, make sure I have
the recommended tension, do the boiled linseed oil thing... the
whole nine yards.
If it cracks, I order the Alex.
Either way, whether it does or does not crack, I've learned
something...
--
Pete Cresswell
>
>Is there an error that typically results in this?
Out of sheer stubbornness, I ordered another Delgado rim.
>Is there an error that typically results in this?
It may also have something to do with being too cheap to buy a
new set of spokes...... -)
This time I'm going to take notes on the build, make sure I have
the recommended tension, do the boiled linseed oil thing... the
whole nine yards.
If it cracks, I order the Alex.
Either way, whether it does or does not crack, I've learned
something...
--
Pete Cresswell
Nate Nagel
Jun 4, 2012, 8:47:52 PM6/4/12
to
those screw-catching screwdrivers. But I would think that the
easiest/best way to handle it, and I'd be tempted to do it even not on a
Deep-V or similar rim, would be to take an old spoke and cut it so that
the nipple would only engage 2-3 threads, then use that same exact spoke
to start all the nipples, then before you start tensioning there should
theoretically be the exact same amount of slack in all spokes. (might
work better for a front wheel than a rear...)
An easier equivalent for a regular box-section or single wall rim would
be something like this
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/tools/dt-swiss/dt-swiss-spoke-nipple-driver/prd_454271_152crx.aspx
but honestly, for the $40.00 I'd probably either do the spoke thing as I
describe above, or else make my equivalent of that tool from an old
screwdriver. Seriously, 5 minutes on a bench grinder...
nate
(trying to think of how to do things elegantly)
Nate Nagel
Jun 4, 2012, 8:50:08 PM6/4/12
to
so far away from the holes, unlike a normal box section rim. And I
imagine that dropping a nipple in there would cause frustration. At
least that's what I'm thinking; he may have another issue but that seems
to be what would be "non-standard" about building one of those rims.
nate
(bought his rims used, so didn't actually have to go through that
exercise...)
Mark J.
Jun 4, 2012, 9:23:57 PM6/4/12
to
On 6/4/2012 5:47 PM, Nate Nagel wrote:
> you could also use some stickum on a screwdriver, or alternately one of
> those screw-catching screwdrivers. But I would think that the
> easiest/best way to handle it, and I'd be tempted to do it even not on a
> Deep-V or similar rim, would be to take an old spoke and cut it so that
> the nipple would only engage 2-3 threads, then use that same exact spoke
> to start all the nipples, then before you start tensioning there should
> theoretically be the exact same amount of slack in all spokes. (might
> work better for a front wheel than a rear...)
>
> An easier equivalent for a regular box-section or single wall rim would
> be something like this
>
> http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/tools/dt-swiss/dt-swiss-spoke-nipple-driver/prd_454271_152crx.aspx
This is a really nice tool, especially if you didn't have to pay for it.
> you could also use some stickum on a screwdriver, or alternately one of
> those screw-catching screwdrivers. But I would think that the
> easiest/best way to handle it, and I'd be tempted to do it even not on a
> Deep-V or similar rim, would be to take an old spoke and cut it so that
> the nipple would only engage 2-3 threads, then use that same exact spoke
> to start all the nipples, then before you start tensioning there should
> theoretically be the exact same amount of slack in all spokes. (might
> work better for a front wheel than a rear...)
>
> An easier equivalent for a regular box-section or single wall rim would
> be something like this
>
> http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/tools/dt-swiss/dt-swiss-spoke-nipple-driver/prd_454271_152crx.aspx
It helps lace up wheels really fast, with the nearly-equal spoke
engagement you describe. A friend was (to my grateful astonishment)
cleaning out a tool box and gave his to me.
Thanks, Max. -MJ
PS - On checking, mine is a "Bicycle Research" brand, but it looks
identical to the DT model in the link.
James
Jun 4, 2012, 10:00:43 PM6/4/12
to
dropped a couple of nipples inside the rim. It wasn't difficult to give
it a shake and have the nipple drop out.
Really, it's just a little more time consuming to build, but not overly
frustrating if time is not sensitive. I guess in a business
environment, you just have to charge more.
I watched a video of a wheel being factory built with Al nipples. They
insert a steel (not stainless) part into the nipple and use a magnet to
locate the nipple in the hole, then remove the steel bit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIGm7pKx3rs
--
JS.
xpzzzz
Jun 5, 2012, 7:09:50 AM6/5/12
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2012 20:47:52 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:
> But I would think that the
> easiest/best way to handle it, and I'd be tempted to do it even not on a
> Deep-V or similar rim, would be to take an old spoke and cut it so that
> the nipple would only engage 2-3 threads, then use that same exact spoke
> to start all the nipples
Just cut a good spoke (a butted one) in the thin section, and wind a bit
> But I would think that the
> easiest/best way to handle it, and I'd be tempted to do it even not on a
> Deep-V or similar rim, would be to take an old spoke and cut it so that
> the nipple would only engage 2-3 threads, then use that same exact spoke
> to start all the nipples
of tape on it to make a shoulder with about 1/2 the spoke length
showing. Stick the nipple on the exposed bit, push up through the hole,
meet spoke from hub, start it and pull the tool out.
(Extra points; make a collar with a setscrew for the cut spoke.)
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 5, 2012, 10:04:38 AM6/5/12
to
Per Nate Nagel:
--
Pete Cresswell
>I'm thinking his issue is just that the area where the nipple seats is
>so far away from the holes, unlike a normal box section rim. And I
>imagine that dropping a nipple in there would cause frustration.
I use a smallish hemostat to grab the nipple and insert it.
>so far away from the holes, unlike a normal box section rim. And I
>imagine that dropping a nipple in there would cause frustration.
--
Pete Cresswell
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 10:30:35 AM6/5/12
to
IF a stronger rim is laced then the cracking torque level used now would nolonger be necessary or available.
looks like the wheels now used are not designed for what you're riding.
wheel misuse is prob #1 here for $$$/time/disaster.
new riders or uniformed are sold expensive light rims by LBS/MO caws the sellers gotta get rid of them or the rider misinterprets wheel data/aspiration/direction/NEED...
square one...
looks like the wheels now used are not designed for what you're riding.
wheel misuse is prob #1 here for $$$/time/disaster.
new riders or uniformed are sold expensive light rims by LBS/MO caws the sellers gotta get rid of them or the rider misinterprets wheel data/aspiration/direction/NEED...
square one...
thirty-six
Jun 5, 2012, 10:44:26 AM6/5/12
to
with the tyre bed undrilled. It saves having proprietary nipple
ferrules installed with the nipples and adding a possible failure
point.
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 10:47:47 AM6/5/12
to
as rims gain strength, trueing to max torque is more difficult caws the rim resists bad moves-its doesn't untwist or twist to your attempts at covering what are your trueing errors or from your side, the rim's construction may be imperfect for your perfect mathmatic (Brandt) approach,,,you know like my tire doesn't fit on the rim...
first rims I used were old steel, a snap to lace and true, Bendoville !
I thought I was a natural. hey forgetttabbboutitt stupid.
first rims I used were old steel, a snap to lace and true, Bendoville !
I thought I was a natural. hey forgetttabbboutitt stupid.
thirty-six
Jun 5, 2012, 10:46:39 AM6/5/12
to
On Jun 5, 1:50 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> On 06/04/2012 04:36 AM, thirty-six wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 2:08 am, Chalo<chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Dan O wrote:
>
> >>> I'm running Alex Adventurer on my LHT (stock rims). 36 straight (15?)
> >>> gauge spokes - tight (~125+ kgf drive-side rear, ~100 kgf front)
>
> >>> I am *very*, very hard on these wheels, jumping and riding over almost
> >>> anything w/ loaded panniers - and they hold up amazingly.
>
> >>> Would like to try Velocity rims some day, as PW says (IIRC) they build
> >>> easily and stay true. These Alex rims seem a little reluctant to get
> >>> perfectly true - especially in the vicinity of the joint (stupid high
> >>> tension probably not helping).
>
> >> Velocity rims are mostly perfect and a pleasure to build with. (Some of the fruity colored Deep Vs I have built in the last year or two were not so perfect.)
>
> >> But I have seen a few cracked Velocity rims. None from Alex.
>
> >> The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker, B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple in on the end of another spoke.
>
> > What specific difficulty do you have?
>
> I'm thinking his issue is just that the area where the nipple seats is
> so far away from the holes, unlike a normal box section rim. And I
> imagine that dropping a nipple in there would cause frustration. At
> least that's what I'm thinking; he may have another issue but that seems
> to be what would be "non-standard" about building one of those rims.
>
I'll guess it's butter fingers finds trouble turning the thin (for
> On 06/04/2012 04:36 AM, thirty-six wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 4, 2:08 am, Chalo<chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Dan O wrote:
>
> >>> I'm running Alex Adventurer on my LHT (stock rims). 36 straight (15?)
> >>> gauge spokes - tight (~125+ kgf drive-side rear, ~100 kgf front)
>
> >>> I am *very*, very hard on these wheels, jumping and riding over almost
> >>> anything w/ loaded panniers - and they hold up amazingly.
>
> >>> Would like to try Velocity rims some day, as PW says (IIRC) they build
> >>> easily and stay true. These Alex rims seem a little reluctant to get
> >>> perfectly true - especially in the vicinity of the joint (stupid high
> >>> tension probably not helping).
>
> >> Velocity rims are mostly perfect and a pleasure to build with. (Some of the fruity colored Deep Vs I have built in the last year or two were not so perfect.)
>
> >> But I have seen a few cracked Velocity rims. None from Alex.
>
> >> The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker, B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple in on the end of another spoke.
>
> > What specific difficulty do you have?
>
> I'm thinking his issue is just that the area where the nipple seats is
> so far away from the holes, unlike a normal box section rim. And I
> imagine that dropping a nipple in there would cause frustration. At
> least that's what I'm thinking; he may have another issue but that seems
> to be what would be "non-standard" about building one of those rims.
>
him) spoke.
thirty-six
Jun 5, 2012, 11:09:24 AM6/5/12
to
On Jun 5, 3:30 pm, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> IF a stronger rim is laced then the cracking torque level used now would nolonger be necessary or available.
The rim in question is 22.5mm wide and 515g for 700c It sho7uld be
> IF a stronger rim is laced then the cracking torque level used now would nolonger be necessary or available.
plenty strong enough to ride on, just not tough enough to ride on with
stupid spoke tension.
>
> looks like the wheels now used are not designed for what you're riding.
>
> wheel misuse is prob #1 here for $$$/time/disaster.
>
> new riders or uniformed are sold expensive light rims by LBS/MO caws the sellers gotta get rid of them or the rider misinterprets wheel data/aspiration/direction/NEED...
>
> square one...
typically got relegated to training wheels . My own experience with
Mavic Open4cd , a rim around 390g new, suggests they are tough enough
for touring if one uses appropriate gauge spokes and builds well.
The downside is that they are really only suitable for tyres upto
25mm. An appropriate light touring tyre may well be 28mm and 32mm say
if one is carrying 80lb or so of luggage on racks. As long as the rim
is appropriate for the appropriate tyre with appropriate pressure, the
rim is more than strong enough and likely tough enough as well, as
long as one doesn't inflict extra loading by stupid spoke trnsion.
Enough spoke tension is enough, it needs to be only as high as to show
good tracking with the load used.
Chalo
Jun 5, 2012, 3:53:24 PM6/5/12
to
thirty-six wrote:
Super deep rims like the B43 take even longer for me, because none of my cranked nipple drivers reach deep enough to engage the nipple head, and all the slack takeup must be done with the spoke key. At least they rarely have more than 32 spokes.
Chalo
>
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker,
> > B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple
> > in on the end of another spoke.
>
> What specific difficulty do you have?
Difficulty? None to speak of. But it probably takes three times as long as a normal rim to get to the point where I'm ready to add tension. I don't charge extra, but I probably should. I don't like price to discourage people from getting custom built wheels when it makes sense for them.
> Chalo wrote:
> >
> > The deep rims that have become Velocity's mainstays (Deep V, Chukker,
> > B43) are a real chore to lace up because you have to feed each nipple
> > in on the end of another spoke.
>
> What specific difficulty do you have?
Super deep rims like the B43 take even longer for me, because none of my cranked nipple drivers reach deep enough to engage the nipple head, and all the slack takeup must be done with the spoke key. At least they rarely have more than 32 spokes.
Chalo
thirty-six
Jun 5, 2012, 4:13:33 PM6/5/12
to
screwdriver with a clutch. Use the thumbnail as a stop at the end of
the spoke thread and run the nipple up with the screwdriver and the
clutch should slip on the lightest setting. It can also be done
manually by pulling on the spoke while spinning the nipple in the
fingers of th other hand. As tension starts to make this a little
difficult the old Cyclo spoke key can be used by holding the body with
two fingers and thumb rather than by the tommy bar. It's sold by
Ceeway for 75 pence. As Raleigh manager/mechanic Norman Sheil (world
professional pursuit champion) told me in around 1983 "That's all we
ever use". He was right, there is no need for any other nipple tool
to build high performance wheels. It took me a long time to realise
it, but when you only have this tool, you see its merits in otherwise
difficult situations. It actively prevents one from overtensioning
spokes and with experience, one becomes profficient at building better
wheels with such a measly tool.
http://www.framebuilding.com/spoke%20key.jpg
AMuzi
Jun 5, 2012, 5:45:56 PM6/5/12
to
I build so many deep section rims now I don't notice any
more time or trouble than any other rim. 15 years ago they
were new, odd, troublesome but that was long ago.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
James
Jun 5, 2012, 6:07:46 PM6/5/12
to
they use a magnetically soft insert and magnet to position the nipple.
The same technique could be used in a deep section rim.
--
JS.
thirty-six
Jun 5, 2012, 6:45:03 PM6/5/12
to
needs a pin stuck in the end of a dowel. The nipple is offered up
from below the rim and cannot be accidentally displaced. A cocktail
stick will suffice for many rims and possibly even a long matchstick
which has been sharpened to a point. I've used the cocktail stick
solution and it allows one to spin the nipple onto the spoke for the
first few turns with speed and minimal effort. As one end wears, one
can switch to the other end. Possibly could use as many as two
cocktail sticks per wheel.. ;-)
James
Jun 5, 2012, 7:25:04 PM6/5/12
to
> With a rim which is fully drilled through there is no need, one only
> needs a pin stuck in the end of a dowel. The nipple is offered up
> from below the rim and cannot be accidentally displaced. A cocktail
> stick will suffice for many rims and possibly even a long matchstick
> which has been sharpened to a point. I've used the cocktail stick
> solution and it allows one to spin the nipple onto the spoke for the
> first few turns with speed and minimal effort. As one end wears, one
> can switch to the other end. Possibly could use as many as two
> cocktail sticks per wheel.. ;-)
Can you list the ways to skin a cat?
> needs a pin stuck in the end of a dowel. The nipple is offered up
> from below the rim and cannot be accidentally displaced. A cocktail
> stick will suffice for many rims and possibly even a long matchstick
> which has been sharpened to a point. I've used the cocktail stick
> solution and it allows one to spin the nipple onto the spoke for the
> first few turns with speed and minimal effort. As one end wears, one
> can switch to the other end. Possibly could use as many as two
> cocktail sticks per wheel.. ;-)
--
JS.
John B.
Jun 5, 2012, 7:52:16 PM6/5/12
to
with two flutes ground off to run the nipples down to the spoke ends.
Adapted to a small electric screwdriver that should do it fairly
quickly.
--
Cheers,
John B.
datakoll
Jun 5, 2012, 7:58:10 PM6/5/12
to
AHHHH what different approach cawsed the no trouble plateau with deep section rims ?
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 2:10:10 PM6/12/12
to
Per (PeteCresswell):
>Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
>measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
>and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
>side.
Oops.... Seems like either it's on the low side or I am reading
the tension incorrectly.
WheelSmith tensiometer.
2.0-1.8-2.0 "DT Competition" double-butted spokes.
Symmetrical wheel (Rohloff hub).
If I'm reading WheelSmith's calibration chart correctly (using
the "1.8" column) it seems like I sb seeing a nominal "60" or so
for proper tension (60=107kg, 65=122...)
But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
more like 75 kg.
If I'm that low, one would think there would be problems with the
wheel staying true, but there have not been. Broken spokes: yes
Problems with staying true: no.
OTOH, I'm suspicious of my use of the tensiometer.
For starters, Wheelsmith's chart does not say anything about
double-butted spokes.
Also, the Rohloff hub might be a confusing factor bco the short
(269 mm) spoke length. Once one side of the tensiometer is
below the rim-end butt, the other side is practically on the
crossover point.
Dunno how that plays out....
--
Pete Cresswell
>Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
>measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
>and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
>side.
Oops.... Seems like either it's on the low side or I am reading
the tension incorrectly.
WheelSmith tensiometer.
2.0-1.8-2.0 "DT Competition" double-butted spokes.
Symmetrical wheel (Rohloff hub).
If I'm reading WheelSmith's calibration chart correctly (using
the "1.8" column) it seems like I sb seeing a nominal "60" or so
for proper tension (60=107kg, 65=122...)
But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
more like 75 kg.
If I'm that low, one would think there would be problems with the
wheel staying true, but there have not been. Broken spokes: yes
Problems with staying true: no.
OTOH, I'm suspicious of my use of the tensiometer.
For starters, Wheelsmith's chart does not say anything about
double-butted spokes.
Also, the Rohloff hub might be a confusing factor bco the short
(269 mm) spoke length. Once one side of the tensiometer is
below the rim-end butt, the other side is practically on the
crossover point.
Dunno how that plays out....
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 2:13:13 PM6/12/12
to
Per (PeteCresswell):
--
Pete Cresswell
>But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
>more like 75 kg.
shb: "... more like 67 kg.
>more like 75 kg.
--
Pete Cresswell
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 2:34:51 PM6/12/12
to
On Jun 12, 7:10 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Per (PeteCresswell):
>
> >Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
> >measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
> >and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
> >side.
>
> Oops.... Seems like either it's on the low side or I am reading
> the tension incorrectly.
>
> WheelSmith tensiometer.
>
> 2.0-1.8-2.0 "DT Competition" double-butted spokes.
>
> Symmetrical wheel (Rohloff hub).
>
> If I'm reading WheelSmith's calibration chart correctly (using
> the "1.8" column) it seems like I sb seeing a nominal "60" or so
> for proper tension (60=107kg, 65=122...)
>
> But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
> more like 75 kg.
165lb , 1.8mm seems about right for a 200lb rider with a 450g rim
> Per (PeteCresswell):
>
> >Gotta pull out my tensiometer, dope out the conversion table, and
> >measure the tension... and then find out what Salsa recommends
> >and compare them. My hope would be that I erred on the high
> >side.
>
> Oops.... Seems like either it's on the low side or I am reading
> the tension incorrectly.
>
> WheelSmith tensiometer.
>
> 2.0-1.8-2.0 "DT Competition" double-butted spokes.
>
> Symmetrical wheel (Rohloff hub).
>
> If I'm reading WheelSmith's calibration chart correctly (using
> the "1.8" column) it seems like I sb seeing a nominal "60" or so
> for proper tension (60=107kg, 65=122...)
>
> But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
> more like 75 kg.
.
>
> If I'm that low, one would think there would be problems with the
> wheel staying true,
I'm not that one. I had no difficulties at 200lb riding 36, 304mm x
>
> If I'm that low, one would think there would be problems with the
> wheel staying true,
1.8mm spokes at 170lbf
> but there have not been. Broken spokes: yes
> Problems with staying true: no.
>
> OTOH, I'm suspicious of my use of the tensiometer.
>
> For starters, Wheelsmith's chart does not say anything about
> double-butted spokes.
>
> Also, the Rohloff hub might be a confusing factor bco the short
> (269 mm) spoke length. Once one side of the tensiometer is
> below the rim-end butt, the other side is practically on the
> crossover point.
>
> Dunno how that plays out....
>
Produce a new chart if necessary.
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 2:35:27 PM6/12/12
to
On Jun 12, 7:13 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Per (PeteCresswell):
>
> >But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
> >more like 75 kg.
>
> shb: "... more like 67 kg.
Now you've torn it.
> Per (PeteCresswell):
>
> >But I am seeing a pretty-consistent "40", which the chart says is
> >more like 75 kg.
>
> shb: "... more like 67 kg.
> --
> Pete Cresswell
Jay Beattie
Jun 12, 2012, 2:35:45 PM6/12/12
to
-- Jay Beattie.
Stephen Bauman
Jun 12, 2012, 5:43:01 PM6/12/12
to
On 05/30/2012 09:25 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
<snip>
>
> http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCDD68EED8BB&Enum=107&AbsPos=14
>
> The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
the mod 58 in weight.
The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
--
Stephen Bauman
<snip>
>
> http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCDD68EED8BB&Enum=107&AbsPos=14
>
> The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
the mod 58 in weight.
The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
--
Stephen Bauman
Tom Ace
Jun 12, 2012, 6:08:06 PM6/12/12
to
On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 11:10:10 AM UTC-7, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Symmetrical wheel (Rohloff hub).
Did you lace cross-2 or cross-1?
Rohloff recommends cross-2 for a rim of that diameter
and I took their advice when I built one, but if I
had to do it again I'd go cross-1. I did the math
and I'm convinced that cross-1 is adequate for torque
transmission with a 700C rim (as a single rider, not
a tandem).
Cross-2 on a Rohloff has the spokes approaching the
rim at an undesirable angle. I took Jobst's advice
("correcting the spoke line") to put a small bend in
the spokes just before where they enter the nipples.
I haven't broken any spokes in the wheel.
Did your spokes break near the nipple or at the heads?
Tom Ace
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 7:58:10 PM6/12/12
to
bend.
the use of washers and/or the judicious opening and/or realignment of
the eyelets is a better option when one is unable/unwilling to source
more suitable nipples or rim.
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 7:51:52 PM6/12/12
to
On Jun 12, 10:43 pm, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net> wrote:
> On 05/30/2012 09:25 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
>
> >http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCD...
> On 05/30/2012 09:25 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
>
>
> > The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> > the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
> the mod 58 in weight.
>
> The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
> the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
> more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
>
> --
>
> Stephen Bauman
More likely that the rim piercings initiated the cracks and the eylets
> > The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> > the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
> the mod 58 in weight.
>
> The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
> the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
> more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
>
> --
>
> Stephen Bauman
have been used to hide the poor finish. Probably safer to get rims
with dimpled nipple beds if you are unable to examine the piercings
due to eyelets.
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 8:09:02 PM6/12/12
to
Per thirty-six:
press against the rim?
>Calibrate the instrument with a test weight on one of those spokes.
>Produce a new chart if necessary.
- Screw a free-standing spoke into a nipple
- Throw a hitch of 600-lb-test kite line around nipple/spoke
and secure to ceiling
- Hang a known weight on "L" of hub-end of spoke
- Apply tensiometer at the same spot one would apply
it to the spoke in the built wheel
- Note tensiometer reading
Have I got it right?
(may sound inane... but the mechanical world is a mysterious
place to Yours Truly...)
--
Pete Cresswell
>> but there have not been. � Broken spokes: yes
>
>Ah, you didn't set the spokes.
Is "Set" the procedure where you lay the wheel on it's axle and
>
>Ah, you didn't set the spokes.
press against the rim?
>Calibrate the instrument with a test weight on one of those spokes.
>Produce a new chart if necessary.
- Throw a hitch of 600-lb-test kite line around nipple/spoke
and secure to ceiling
- Hang a known weight on "L" of hub-end of spoke
- Apply tensiometer at the same spot one would apply
it to the spoke in the built wheel
- Note tensiometer reading
Have I got it right?
(may sound inane... but the mechanical world is a mysterious
place to Yours Truly...)
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 8:10:42 PM6/12/12
to
Per Tom Ace:
--
Pete Cresswell
>Did you lace cross-2 or cross-1?
2
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 8:11:17 PM6/12/12
to
Per Tom Ace:
--
Pete Cresswell
>Did your spokes break near the nipple or at the heads?
Always at the nipple, in the threaded portion.
--
Pete Cresswell
(PeteCresswell)
Jun 12, 2012, 8:12:39 PM6/12/12
to
Per thirty-six:
little exercise one more time.... with another brand once the
second Delgado cracks.
--
Pete Cresswell
>More likely that the rim piercings initiated the cracks and the eylets
>have been used to hide the poor finish. Probably safer to get rims
>with dimpled nipple beds if you are unable to examine the piercings
>due to eyelets.
I'm starting to get the feeling that I am going to perform this
>have been used to hide the poor finish. Probably safer to get rims
>with dimpled nipple beds if you are unable to examine the piercings
>due to eyelets.
little exercise one more time.... with another brand once the
second Delgado cracks.
--
Pete Cresswell
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 8:55:56 PM6/12/12
to
strain. This may also be contributary to the rim cracks. You may as
well destroy the rest of the spokes, at least I wouldn't count on
them. Don't use that comination again in cross 2 unless you believe
that a slight realignment of the eyelets is within your ability.
thirty-six
Jun 12, 2012, 8:47:10 PM6/12/12
to
On Jun 13, 1:09 am, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Per thirty-six:
>
> >> but there have not been. Broken spokes: yes
>
> >Ah, you didn't set the spokes.
>
> Is "Set" the procedure where you lay the wheel on it's axle and
> press against the rim?
No. I mean using a punch on the spoke heads and manipulation of the
> Per thirty-six:
>
> >> but there have not been. Broken spokes: yes
>
> >Ah, you didn't set the spokes.
>
> Is "Set" the procedure where you lay the wheel on it's axle and
> press against the rim?
spokes around the flange and each other so that they have the minimal
amount of bending stress induced when the wheel is loaded. It's
reducing the amount of unsupported curvature in the spokes.
>
> >Calibrate the instrument with a test weight on one of those spokes.
> >Produce a new chart if necessary.
>
> - Screw a free-standing spoke into a nipple
:-(
> >Calibrate the instrument with a test weight on one of those spokes.
> >Produce a new chart if necessary.
>
> - Screw a free-standing spoke into a nipple
>
> - Throw a hitch of 600-lb-test kite line around nipple/spoke
> and secure to ceiling
>
> - Hang a known weight on "L" of hub-end of spoke
>
> - Apply tensiometer at the same spot one would apply
> it to the spoke in the built wheel
>
> - Note tensiometer reading
>
> Have I got it right?
Tom $herman (-_-)
Jun 12, 2012, 9:42:21 PM6/12/12
to
On 6/12/2012 7:09 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> - Note tensiometer reading
>
>
> Have I got it right?
Spell it "Tension-O-Meter" if you want a 1950's retro feeling.
> - Note tensiometer reading
>
>
> Have I got it right?
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Tom Ace
Jun 12, 2012, 11:33:56 PM6/12/12
to
On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:58:10 PM UTC-7, thirty-six wrote:
> the use of washers and/or the judicious opening and/or realignment of
> the eyelets is a better option when one is unable/unwilling to source
> more suitable nipples or rim.
Or better still, forget all that, lace
> the use of washers and/or the judicious opening and/or realignment of
> the eyelets is a better option when one is unable/unwilling to source
> more suitable nipples or rim.
cross-1 and have the spokes at a sane angle.
Best to do this from the start of course.
If you've already used the wheel laced x2,
the hub shell has been deformed by the spokes.
If I ever started breaking spokes in my wheel
I'd contact cyclemonkey.com (USA service for
Rohloff) and see about getting a new hub shell
before I changed the lacing pattern.
BTW, 36 holes is an option for Rohloff now.
Tom Ace
thirty-six
Jun 13, 2012, 6:38:54 AM6/13/12
to
On Jun 13, 4:33 am, Tom Ace <tom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:58:10 PM UTC-7, thirty-six wrote:
> > the use of washers and/or the judicious opening and/or realignment of
> > the eyelets is a better option when one is unable/unwilling to source
> > more suitable nipples or rim.
>
> Or better still, forget all that, lace
> cross-1 and have the spokes at a sane angle.
possibly.
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:58:10 PM UTC-7, thirty-six wrote:
> > the use of washers and/or the judicious opening and/or realignment of
> > the eyelets is a better option when one is unable/unwilling to source
> > more suitable nipples or rim.
>
> Or better still, forget all that, lace
> cross-1 and have the spokes at a sane angle.
>
> Best to do this from the start of course.
> If you've already used the wheel laced x2,
> the hub shell has been deformed by the spokes.
> If I ever started breaking spokes in my wheel
> I'd contact cyclemonkey.com (USA service for
> Rohloff) and see about getting a new hub shell
> before I changed the lacing pattern.
side of the flange. Each hole in the hub-flange still connects to a
trailing spoke if that what it had before, but from the other side.
Inside spokes become outside spokes and ... I don't envisage this to
be a problem even with delicate hub-flanges, as long as there was no
manufacturing fault.
Jay Beattie
Jun 13, 2012, 10:14:43 AM6/13/12
to
-- Jay Beattie.
thirty-six
Jun 13, 2012, 11:05:32 AM6/13/12
to
On Jun 13, 3:14 pm, Jay Beattie <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:51:52 PM UTC-7, thirty-six wrote:
> > On Jun 12, 10:43 pm, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net> wrote:
> > > On 05/30/2012 09:25 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> > > <snip>
>
> > > >http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCD...
>
> > > > The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> > > > the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> > > The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
> > > the mod 58 in weight.
>
> > > The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
> > > the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
> > > more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
>
> > > --
>
> > > Stephen Bauman
>
> > More likely that the rim piercings initiated the cracks and the eylets
> > have been used to hide the poor finish. Probably safer to get rims
> > with dimpled nipple beds if you are unable to examine the piercings
> > due to eyelets.
>
> Stephen has a point, and I wonder if there is any information on line about spoke bed thickness on the Mod 58 and Delgado.
Thinking again, the lightest double wall rims (sprints) without
> On Tuesday, June 12, 2012 4:51:52 PM UTC-7, thirty-six wrote:
> > On Jun 12, 10:43 pm, Stephen Bauman <sbau...@abt.net> wrote:
> > > On 05/30/2012 09:25 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> > > <snip>
>
> > > >http://velobase.com/ViewComponent.aspx?ID=D0582062-EC3E-42D6-958F-FCD...
>
> > > > The weight listed on that site is low. I think the nominal weight for
> > > > the Mod 58 was 565g. Your rim is 470g (?).
>
> > > The spec for a Salsa Delgado rim is 515g making this rim comparable to
> > > the mod 58 in weight.
>
> > > The big difference is that the Salsa Delgado is a double wall rim and
> > > the mod 58 was single wall - hollow box. This means the mod 58 had a lot
> > > more material preventing the eyelets from pulling out and cracking the rim.
>
> > > --
>
> > > Stephen Bauman
>
> > More likely that the rim piercings initiated the cracks and the eylets
> > have been used to hide the poor finish. Probably safer to get rims
> > with dimpled nipple beds if you are unable to examine the piercings
> > due to eyelets.
>
> Stephen has a point, and I wonder if there is any information on line about spoke bed thickness on the Mod 58 and Delgado.
ferrules were sold with rim washers, not eyelets. It is quite
possible this nipple bearing wall is too thin for longevity unless
steel rim washers are used..
> I don't recall ever cracking a Mod 58, and I built quite few wheels on that rim -- including tandem wheels (albeit on 120/126mm hubs). When the Mavic Mod E/MA2 came along, it had spoke sockets that distributed the load between the double walls. Modern double wall rims generally don't use sockets and often don't have eyelets. I
nipple seat) then that suggests that rim washers are a likely
requirement for longevity.
>guess the saving grace is that modern deep section rims tend to have more material at the spoke bed.
alone could not be relied upon.
James
Jun 13, 2012, 6:09:36 PM6/13/12
to
plane, so there is less rim flex and less dynamic stress put on
surrounding spokes. More spokes bear the dynamic loads placed on the wheel.
Static spoke tension wont crack the rim. You wont build a wheel, shelve
it for 10 years, look again and find cracks in the rim.
--
JS.
ronja...@gmail.com
Jul 16, 2013, 12:19:51 AM7/16/13
to
I have the exact same rims. Built with proper tension. Cracks everywhere after 3 years of riding. No other rim has done this. Seems ALL salsa delgado rims do this or at least this batch.
birch...@gmail.com
Aug 31, 2014, 4:25:14 PM8/31/14
to
Peter Howard
Aug 31, 2014, 11:23:36 PM8/31/14
to
DT Swiss TK540 expensive. Double eyeletted.
Both build up into nice wheels.
PH
jbeattie
Sep 1, 2014, 4:46:15 PM9/1/14
to
Velo Orange has a Super Champ Mod 58-ish rim like the Delgado: http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/wheelsets-rims-hubs/rims/vo-700c-escapade-rim.html
604 ERD, which would still work with your spokes (probably). Heavy, though, at 590g.
-- Jay Beattie.
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