Tire-making, continued....
DougC
silica) but not all (still need fabric).
I also stopped by china-mart and bought a $12 26" white-wall "beach
cruiser" tire packaged under the Bell name, but marked Innova. I decided
to cut apart an existing tire to see how it was made, and all I had
around was better-quality tires and it seemed a shame to cut up a usable
$50 Schwalbe or Continental. I did have a pair of no-names I got off a
Worksman bike, but even those are the kevlar-belts and they were used so
little that the center treads still has the nubbies on it.
First off I was surprised at how thin it is made; I'd have guessed that
it was at least twice as thick as it turned out to be. The sidewalls
measure around .09" thick, and the center area (in-between the tread
blocks) measures right around .1" thick. The tread blocks measure
another .09" taller than that. The tire is made in three layers--black
casing, white-wall layer, and then the center tread layer on top. Once
cut, a thin section of the white-wall rubber is visible all the way
across the tire.
The tire came rolled up into a small box, and I had always thought
(since seeing these tire packages in Wal-Mart) that these tires used
kevlar beads, but that's not so--they just use stranded wire cable.
Three turns of cable approximately .04" diameter each, which seems to
indicate a "working" weight capacity of around 60 lbs each (as per this
page)-
http://www.govart.com/hardware_wire.html
The bead wire is not really picture wire, as the bead wire is 3 core
strands surrounded by eight outer strands (not seven strands as the page
says picture wire always is). Still, three or four turns of the kevlar
thread should come fairly close to the same strength. The kevlar thread
I bought is #346, which is .026" diameter and has a "strength" rating of
140 lbs, which--I would guess--is the typical breaking strength.
The fabric used for the tire casing, I don't know if I will be able to
duplicate. It isn't even "fabric" in the usual sense, it's just a grid
of loose moderately-thick threads--they wouldn't even stay together if
they weren't embedded in rubber. It's a square-weave (two sets of
threads 90-degrees apart, and tilted 45-degrees to the plane of the
tire) but one way has only about 10% of the threads of the other.... one
way they are .065" apart, and the other way is .435" apart.
,,,,,,,
I may just have to pick a medium-weight nylon mesh and try that. I tried
looking for window screening but that's all fiberglass or polypropylene.
The fumed silica is a rather odd substance. Still in its double-bagged
package, it feels like the squishy foam stress-reliever desk toys. It's
solid, but can be squished into whatever shape you want, and it stays in
that shape once squeezed... and it has a rubbery "bounce" if you thunk
it. It's also very light-weight, a gallon of it weighs only 10 oz.
The latex I haven't opened yet. The label says it is white, which I was
hoping, because the auction didn't say and I'd seen some brush-on
elsewhere that was light green.
I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
~
Kerry Montgomery
"DougC" <dci...@norcom2000.com> wrote in message
news:wSFNm.52085$Wf2....@newsfe23.iad...
If I remember correctly, fumed silica is way bad stuff to breath. And, if
you put your hand into it, it's such a great insulator that the heat given
off by your hand quickly makes your hand uncomfortably hot.
Have fun, look forward to your results,
Kerry
Cicero Venatio
> I haven't bought any carbon black yet, don't need it right away....
> ~
-----------
Everybody is cooking up their own new tires now, it's the new rage to be
independent.
thirty-six
> I've gotten in some of the materials (kevlar thread, latex, fumed
> silica) but not all (still need fabric).
>
> I also stopped by china-mart and bought a $12 26" white-wall "beach
> cruiser" tire packaged under the Bell name, but marked Innova. I decided
> to cut apart an existing tire to see how it was made, and all I had
> around was better-quality tires and it seemed a shame to cut up a usable
> $50 Schwalbe or Continental. I did have a pair of no-names I got off a
> Worksman bike, but even those are the kevlar-belts and they were used so
> little that the center treads still has the nubbies on it.
>
> First off I was surprised at how thin it is made; I'd have guessed that
> it was at least twice as thick as it turned out to be. The sidewalls
> measure around .09" thick, and the center area (in-between the tread
> blocks) measures right around .1" thick. The tread blocks measure
> another .09" taller than that. The tire is made in three layers--black
> casing, white-wall layer, and then the center tread layer on top. Once
> cut, a thin section of the white-wall rubber is visible all the way
> across the tire.
>
> The tire came rolled up into a small box, and I had always thought
> (since seeing these tire packages in Wal-Mart) that these tires used
> kevlar beads, but that's not so--they just use stranded wire cable.
> Three turns of cable approximately .04" diameter each, which seems to
> indicate a "working" weight capacity of around 60 lbs each (as per this
kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
bead. You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
have to buy it by the mile. Other than laying out your own threads
and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. a loom is not
necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
cut the fabric at 45deg.
DougC
>
> kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
> bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
> wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
> matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
> elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
> need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
> demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
> bead.
Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
One thing I noticed about the tire bead and cables--the physical tire
bead (the one that you can see) is much larger than the actual cables
that really hold the tire from expanding.... so I wonder if the external
rubber ridge is needed at all? It might help protect the real bead from
idiots with tire levers but I don't use tire levers, so that don't apply
to me. ,,,,,,,I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
the tire.
> You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
> have to buy it by the mile. Other than laying out your own threads
> and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
> you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. a loom is not
> necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
> cut the fabric at 45deg.
I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
very practical.
~
Tom Sherman °_°
> thirty-six wrote:
>>
>> kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
>> bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
>> wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
>> matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
>> elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
>> need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
>> demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
>> bead.
>
> Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
That is plastic deformation, not elastic. For example, the elastomers
used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
before tensile failure.
--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
thirty-six
> thirty-six wrote:
>
> > kevlar 'wires' are used with hook bead rim otherwise known as crochet
> > bead rim. If you are not using thistype of rim you need to use steel
> > wire for the tyre edge as its not the strength of the wire which
> > matteers so much as its ability to constrain, in other words, its
> > elasticity. A llarger section or higher running pressure tyre will
> > need stiffer wires to prevet tyre lift off and non-requisit
> > demounting. in other words you'll likely roll a tyre with kevlar
> > bead.
>
> Kevlar has only about 1% elongation before breaking.
Never mind running into problems about constraining the tyre to rim,
you are making it difficult for youself in construction. With steel
wires you have some stability during assembly upon which to wrap your
'cloth'. BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
required look but the performance will be poor.
>
> One thing I noticed about the tire bead and cables--the physical tire
> bead (the one that you can see) is much larger than the actual cables
> that really hold the tire from expanding.... so I wonder if the external
> rubber ridge is needed at all?
Not if the wiring is stiff enough. The tyre you have has most likely
been constructed in a way to facilitate cheapest cost. This does not
make it a bad example, but the differences between tyres should show
you what you can vary.
>It might help protect the real bead from
> idiots with tire levers but I don't use tire levers, so that don't apply
> to me. ,,,,,,,
You said the tyre was coiled up in a box, this requires thin wires,
the beading compensates for the thin wires on a genuine clincher rim.
The cost savings are in storage and transportation space along with
the ability to market the tyres from a non bike specific shop.
>I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
> sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
> and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
> the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
> outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
> the tire.
Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
due to the tyre or the rim. Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.
>
> > You possibly can buy good tyre casing 'material' but you may
> > have to buy it by the mile. Other than laying out your own threads
> > and spraying them with latex to produce a single ply faric I cant see
> > you getting a small quatity of tyre casing material. a loom is not
> > necessary just wrap a card with your thin thread, spray with latex and
> > cut the fabric at 45deg.
>
> I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
> anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
> very practical.
Well the alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
v=clues.. So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
material.
DougC
>
> BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
> will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
> required look but the performance will be poor.
>
I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.
Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?
>> I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
>> sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
>> and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
>> the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
>> outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
>> the tire.
>
> Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
> due to the tyre or the rim. Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.
I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
fit properly on Sun BFR rims.
>> I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
>> anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
>> very practical.
>
>
> Well the alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
> factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
> motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
> v=clues.. So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
> you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
> material.
Ha ha,,, -that's a good one.
Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
~
DougC
So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?
Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
breaking" of around 1%.
thirty-six
> thirty-six wrote:
>
> > BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
> > will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
> > required look but the performance will be poor.
>
> I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.
The weft is the thread which goes from weft to wight on the loom and
the warp goes up. Sorry ,its a warpless weft cloth.
> Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
> cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?
What i meant, I meant, what I said is different.
>
> >> I have a set of Big Apples I can't use because they won't
> >> sit properly on the target bike's rims--the tire seats with a low spot
> >> and I've never found any technique to help it. If the rubber ridge is
> >> the cause of the seating problem and it's not necessary anyway, the
> >> outside of it could be -carefully- trimmed off somewhat without harming
> >> the tire.
>
> > Try the tyre in a different orientation to establish is the low spot
> > due to the tyre or the rim. Use plenty of french chalk// talcum.
>
> I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
> And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
> various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
> fit properly on Sun BFR rims.
I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
tyre without a tube and rimtape?
>
> >> I'll just have to use what I can find, at this point I doubt I'd find
> >> anything quite like the "real thing" and making it myself doesn't sound
> >> very practical.
>
> > Well the alternative I see are to either beg at the door of a tyre
> > factory / look in their waste or salvage from used tyres including
> > motorcycle and sports car tyres, you'll be lookin at the side wall for
> > v=clues.. So if you know of any domestic tyre manufacturers, perhaps
> > you could approach them for assembled casinggs or offcuts of casing
> > material.
>
> Ha ha,,, -that's a good one.
> Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
> ~
England, NI, Eire , France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy. Yes there
is.
DougC
> On 21 Nov, 13:07, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>> thirty-six wrote:
>>
>>> BTW if you dont use a weftless warp cloth, or nearly so, you
>>> will likely be dissapointed with the results,. You may get your
>>> required look but the performance will be poor.
>> I don't know what "weftless warp cloth" is.
>
> The weft is the thread which goes from weft to wight on the loom and
> the warp goes up. Sorry ,its a warpless weft cloth.
>
>> Also, dictionary.com doesn't know, wikipedia doesn't know, and Google
>> cannot find me a picture of it either...... what exactly do you mean here?
>
> What i meant, I meant, what I said is different.
>
I still can't find any explanation, aside from a few crocheting
references. Maybe you can?
>> I don't want it on another bike, and chalk ain't gonna help.
>> And every method I could find online has been tried and re-tried, in
>> various combinations and orders, several times. Big Apples simply won't
>> fit properly on Sun BFR rims.
>
> I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
> tyre without a tube and rimtape?
No, as I don't know what good that would do.
The tire can be put onto the rim just fine, but when the tube is
inflated, no matter what one does, the tire will seat with a spot that
is 1/4" lower than the rest of the tire.
The tire is not ideal anyway as the tire's width does block the biggest
couple of cogs from being used--but it is annoying anyway....
>> Are there any tire companies that /aren't/ in China?
>> ~
>
> England, NI, Eire , France, Germany, Netherlands, Italy. Yes there
> is.
>
Might as well be China, as far as them are from me.
And they talk funny too, just like the heartless Chinese--mocking me
with their big fancy tire factories and their woofless warped cloth.
Damn the lot of them.
~
thirty-six
>
> I still can't find any explanation, aside from a few crocheting
> references. Maybe you can?
tyre cord fabriic weft warp mill some assortment of these terms
will find you your info.
>
> > I've no experience with that equipment but have you tried mounting the
> > tyre without a tube and rimtape?
>
> No, as I don't know what good that would do.
Identify if those items are interfering with the fit.
>
> The tire can be put onto the rim just fine, but when the tube is
> inflated, no matter what one does, the tire will seat with a spot that
> is 1/4" lower than the rest of the tire.
Are you taking the tyre up to maximum pressure first, sometimes this
will stabilize a tyre position.
Carpets use a similar base fabric to tyres and Ive seen a reference to
fabric conveyer belts also using similar . So check the backs of
carpets and you may find something sutable.
Tom Sherman °_°
then the fibers will deform elastically (recoverable deformation), then
the fibers will deform plastically (non-recoverable deformation), and
finally fracture. The only value given on the Pelican Rope site is the
amount of plastic deformation before fracture.
Chalo
>
> Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
> >
> > used to make rubber bands have a hundred percent elastic deformation or
> > more before yielding, but only about one percent plastic deformation
> > before tensile failure.
>
> So where can I buy some of this stretchy kevlar?
>
> Every place selling it I've ever seen gave an "elongation before
> breaking" of around 1%.
>
> http://www.pelicanrope.com/new03.htm
As Tom Sherman points out in his followup, that 1% is elongation after
yield. Any Kevlar cord is way more elastic than 1%, even if it's not
twined up in rope lay. And any cable with rope lay will have on the
order of 1% elasticity just as deformation and compaction of the
entwined structure.
Chalo
datakoll
Conti ?
DougC
However we note: the question is not simply how much stretch the kevlar
cord has, but how it compares to stainless steel twisted cable.
I've looked all over for anyplace that sells 1x10 strand stainless wire
rope, and can't find anywhere that has it, much less gives any specs on
it. Lots of places do make 1x7 strand, in roughly the same diameter...
Anyhoo--switching to steel wire is certainly possible it it becomes
necessary.
~
thirty-six
You dont want wire rope, just wire. You need to make the rope in to
the circle by winding one strand upon itself, I dont see any way of
successfully joining rope as a tyre wire. By winding the wire upon
itself it will self lock and so no extra joining method will be needed.
DougC
>> However we note: the question is not simply how much stretch the kevlar
>> cord has, but how it compares to stainless steel twisted cable.
>>
>> I've looked all over for anyplace that sells 1x10 strand stainless wire
>> rope, and can't find anywhere that has it, much less gives any specs on
>> it. Lots of places do make 1x7 strand, in roughly the same diameter...
>>
>> Anyhoo--switching to steel wire is certainly possible it it becomes
>> necessary.
>> ~
>
> You dont want wire rope, just wire. You need to make the rope in to
> the circle by winding one strand upon itself, I dont see any way of
> successfully joining rope as a tyre wire. By winding the wire upon
> itself it will self lock and so no extra joining method will be needed.
To better inspect the tire's layers, I had cut a 6-inch long piece off
cleanly at both ends. Playing with it I noticed that along one bead,
there was a stiffer section that the other didn't have.
Figuring this was where the ends were joined, I cut it apart and
found..... nothing. There was nothing joining the ends at all, they were
just overlaid about an inch. I would have figured there would be a
crimp-on fastener present.
I had assumed I'd have to find a way to crimp the ends together if I
used steel wire, but that kevlar would be a bit easier, as the ends of
the kevlar could just be tied. (I've seen burned car tires where the
crimp for the steel beads was visible)
...but....
This video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok
shows a bicycle tire being made at a Continental factory; they don't
show the ends of the kevlar being tied at all either. In particular,
note how the worker presses the starting ends into the rubber....
{-also we note--the thickness of the tread is entirely over-represented
in their diagrams-}
I'd also add that the kevlar twine they're using looks about the same
thickness that mine does, only theirs appears black, and kevlar can't be
dyed without damaging it. The only way it can be colored is to combine
it with other fibers that will take dye. So I don't know what's going on
there.
I may have to go destroy a kevlar-bead tire just to see what's in it
exactly.
~
thirty-six
> To better inspect the tire's layers, I had cut a 6-inch long piece off
> cleanly at both ends. Playing with it I noticed that along one bead,
> there was a stiffer section that the other didn't have.
>
> Figuring this was where the ends were joined, I cut it apart and
> found..... nothing. There was nothing joining the ends at all, they were
> just overlaid about an inch. I would have figured there would be a
> crimp-on fastener present.
I dont think you would get away with this with a non-beaded tyre, it
will be easier to construct the tyre on wound wire hoops anyway. A
tension wired tyre, you'll find is easier to make, I think.
>
> I had assumed I'd have to find a way to crimp the ends together if I
> used steel wire, but that kevlar would be a bit easier, as the ends of
> the kevlar could just be tied. (I've seen burned car tires where the
> crimp for the steel beads was visible)
> ...but....
> This video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_x0qPM8Ok
> shows a bicycle tire being made at a Continental factory; they don't
> show the ends of the kevlar being tied at all either. In particular,
> note how the worker presses the starting ends into the rubber....
I think you may find that there are possibly seven wraps of that
kevlar thread, not one.
>
> {-also we note--the thickness of the tread is entirely over-represented
> in their diagrams-}
>
> I'd also add that the kevlar twine they're using looks about the same
> thickness that mine does, only theirs appears black, and kevlar can't be
> dyed without damaging it. The only way it can be colored is to combine
> it with other fibers that will take dye. So I don't know what's going on
> there.
Dunno. I'd guess it is not 100% kevlar, possibly line mixed in.
>
> I may have to go destroy a kevlar-bead tire just to see what's in it
> exactly.
I can remember one that I stripped being slightly off-white and there
just seemed to be thousands of filaments, not twisted except as a
mass. It was not a mixed fibre as far as I could tell. I used a 4x
magniffier on it and the 'fibre' seemed unremarkable at least at that
time, I may see more in it know. It was some time ago and I cant
even be sure what tyre it was.
> ~