Re: Advice on bike to get

[Dan O]

On May 13, 8:26 pm, Philip <n...@there.com> wrote:
> Hey folks I used to ride a steel touring Raleigh, went everywhere on
> it through woods, up and over tree roots, up and down kerbs (lifting
> the front wheel by pulling on the bars to clear the kerb on the way
> up, likewise on the way down to soften impact)..
>
> It's about 15 years since I had that bike and I haven't ridden since..
> looking at the market now I'm confused about what I should get.
> Everythings changed.
>
> I intend to mostly ride on the road, but there's a moderately rough
> concrete path I must use..
>
> I'm also overweight, and not very fit, and have a bit of a bad back..
> I hanker after drop bars - always felt more in control with drops than
> straight bars - but maybe I'm working off memory of when I was younger
> and the reality could be somewhat different today..
>
> From what I've heard modern racer bikes (now called road bikes!?) have
> wheels that buckle if you look at them the wrong way, and can
> literally only be used on roads.. so no good for the footpath...
>
> MTB is heavy and slow.. Hybrid is OK but straight bars.. My LBS
> suggested a cyclocross.. which appears to be right up my street.. but
> they start at 700 !!!
>
> My budget is about 300 and I'm looking at heavily discounted bargains
> and quality cheap bikes..
>
> So far the BTwin Triban 3 has peaked my interest, Cannondale Bad Boy 7
> for a hybrid type, or do they still make a steel bike like my old
> Raleigh...
>
> Any advice please..
>
> Also which riding position is better for a bad back?? I'm thinking on
> a hybrid the load is on the base of the spine which will have to
> absorb a lot of shocks.. whereas weight is more distributed to your
> arms and legs in racer position??

If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.

Oh... I see you balked at $700. Never mind. But I *know* these guys
have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
great!

[Andre Jute]

Couple of points about backs:
You won't be doing your back any favors with drop bars. If you start out with a bad back, you want to sit as upright as you can. That means ideally North Road bars, like on proper Dutch city bikes. You want to get as much weight off your hands as you can, too, because the hands are connected to the muscles low down in your back where the back pain resides, another reason to sit upright. I'm a writer, so I sit at a desk 14 hours a day, basically except when I'm sitting on my bike or at table to eat. I was making the physio rich with my back until I started sitting ever more upright.

Another thing. Both your hands and your back are absolutely killed by micro vibrations, and those aren't mitigated by moving-strut suspensions. You want to get the widest tyres you can fit. I went by stages all the way up to balloons on an otherwise unsuspended bike and I'm now much more comfortable -- can't remember when my hands were last numb on the bike -- than I was on a bike with expense electronically controlled hydraulic suspension.

I don't actually know anything about cheap bikes, but I ride with some real cheapskates, and they always have super bikes, including a Japanese keirin to die for (no, I don't know how it came to be in Ireland). They don't even get them fixed. When they wear out the consumable components, they just get another by the same means. How? They pay fifty euro for them at garage sales, or by just asking down at the pub who has a bike in his garage that he rode twice and that is now in the way. We also have something called the Gumtree, I think, on the internet, where you can find all kinds of stuff locally really cheaply, including, apparently, many bikes.

Surly Long Trucker is good advice from Dan. You might see about a secondhand one. I looked into Surly's Karate Monkey frame once and found it good, though I decided not to build up a bike but rather to buy something complete in Germany. I also have a Surly chainring on my present bike, and it's simple, sturdy and not actually overpriced for the expected life. There's a lot of overpriced boutique shit in cycling, and it isn't always obvious why you should give it a miss; you've come to the right place.

Welcome.

Andre Jute

[John B.]

I won't get into the "which bike is better" discussion (Mine, of
course, are the best) but if your back is getting a bit stiff than
raise the handle bars. People who ride long distances will often have
the top of the bars at about the same height as the seat.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Tue, 14 May 2013 05:08:32 +0100, Philip <n...@there.com> wrote:

>Dan O <danov...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
>>If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
>>Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
>>has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
>>adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>>
>>Oh... I see you balked at $700. Never mind. But I *know* these guys
>>have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
>>great!
>

>I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
>show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>
It did show up, here in Thailand :-)

>My budget in dollars would be about $5-600. In the UK the Surly sells
>for 1000 UKP. It does seem to be a very nice bike from what I read!
>
>Yes, very excited to get riding again. :)

I don't know the market there but over here a second hand bike, in
very good shape, would sell for approximately 1/2 - 2/3 the price of a
new one.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Duane]

On 5/14/2013 12:08 AM, Philip wrote:
> Dan O<danov...@gmail.com> wrote :
>

>> If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
>> Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
>> has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
>> adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>>
>> Oh... I see you balked at $700. Never mind. But I *know* these guys
>> have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
>> great!
>

> I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
> show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>

> My budget in dollars would be about $5-600. In the UK the Surly sells
> for 1000 UKP. It does seem to be a very nice bike from what I read!
>
> Yes, very excited to get riding again. :)

I usually get deals by buying last year's model. You can probably get a
decent bike for that price by shopping around. I'd stick with a shop to
get a bike that fits properly. If you have a few around you try to go
there and talk to them. Tell them what you're looking for and what you
want to spend.

For myself, I have some lower back issues so I ride a Specialized
Tarmac. It has a shorter frame and even though it has drop bars, I ride
comfortably on the hoods most of the time. Specialized has an Allez
that's probably less than $1000 new. You may be able to find one that's
left over and in you price range.

You'll get some good advice here about different styles etc. I would
say the main thing is to get something that you'll ride, get it fitted
properly and then ride it.

[Duane]

I can second that. Works well for me. And you still have the drops
when you want to tuck into that headwind.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Philip:

>
>I'm also overweight, and not very fit, and have a bit of a bad back..
>I hanker after drop bars - always felt more in control with drops than
>straight bars - but maybe I'm working off memory of when I was younger
>and the reality could be somewhat different today..

I liked drops because of the hand position on the hoods, but now I use
straight bars with bar ends.

With the bar ends one of the hand positions is almost as good as on the
hoods with drop bars and there are more options - especially out of the
saddle climbing a hill.

Control-wise, I'd say I have better control because of the greater
leverage and the fact that the drops won't hit me in the thigh if/when I
have to make narrow turns at very low speed.

In the context of your experience, the hybrid and cyclocross ring truest
to me.

Back-wise, I'd guess it depends in part on the type of "bad". For me,
bolt-upright is dysfunctional because of the shock-loading that you
observe. OTOH, too much forward lean isn't good either - especially
when it makes it harder to look around. I compromise on a comfortable
slouch for most riding with the option to go more-or-less areo using the
handlebar ends if/when I want.

Another consideration might be the range of tire sizes a frame and the
wheels it comes with will accommodate. Dunno from cyclocross, but I've
run tires as narrow as 28 and as wide as 40 on my hybrid and it will
take much wider. http://tinyurl.com/bnpx2ty Horses for courses and
all that...

--
Pete Cresswell

[slide]

On 5/13/2013 9:26 PM, Philip wrote:
>
> Also which riding position is better for a bad back?? I'm thinking on
> a hybrid the load is on the base of the spine which will have to
> absorb a lot of shocks.. whereas weight is more distributed to your
> arms and legs in racer position??
>

Not answerable because it depends on the nature of your 'bad' back.
Frex, some backs can't take bending in which case drops are your enemy.
In some cases, they can bend but can't take shocks in which case drops
are your friend. The 'cases' go on and on.

[James]

My bike is better, though.

I bulged a disc in the lower back a few years ago, not while biking.
The back is still not quite perfect, but ...

I practice improving flexibility, particularly arching backward and to
the sides.

I maintain good core strength.

My handlebars are several inches below my seat. You can get an
appreciation for the distance in a couple of photos.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/8738726121/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/55102679@N05/8738727353/in/photostream/

Those photos were taken during a 250km ride (one day) a few weeks ago.

Too much weight on the hands can mean the seat is to far forward. You
try to relieve the weight on your hands by using your back and it gets
tired. So try moving the seat back, and the bars back a little too -
but not so far that you bang your knees on them when you stand.

Putting the bars up a couple of inches doesn't do a lot to change the
load on your lower back. It's a combination of changes that make a real
difference.

--
JS.

[Frank Krygowski]

On May 14, 7:17 am, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I won't get into the "which bike is better" discussion (Mine, of
> course, are the best) but if your back is getting a bit stiff than
> raise the handle bars. People who ride long distances will often have
> the top of the bars at about the same height as the seat.

I agree about raising bars. Many people never use their drops, maybe
because they lack the flexibility. Might as well get them to a height
where you can use both the tops and the drops.

But about bad backs: My wife went through a time, years ago, when she
had very very painful back problems. At one time, she could get free
of pain _only_ by riding a bike. It was so definite that we set up
her bike on a trainer in the living room.

The point is, back problems are very individual. What works for one
person might not work for another, and trial and error is necessary.
But take heart; my wife's problems eventually cleared up, and her back
has been fine for a long, long time.

- Frank Krygowski

[Dan O]

On May 14, 9:02 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>
> The point is, ... [insert concept here] are very individual.  What works for one

> person might not work for another, and trial and error is necessary.

Holy Frickin' moly I cannot believe these words appear above your sig!

<snip>

[sms]

On 5/14/2013 4:17 AM, John B. wrote:

> I won't get into the "which bike is better" discussion (Mine, of
> course, are the best) but if your back is getting a bit stiff than
> raise the handle bars. People who ride long distances will often have
> the top of the bars at about the same height as the seat.

Just remember that most road bikes these days have threadless headsets
and the manufacturer cuts the steerer tube way too short so to raise the
bars to the level of the seat requires a funky extension adapter, or
better yet, an adjustable stem, i.e. <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001V5GLHY>.

[Duane]

You have to buy the bike with the proper geometry and then lower the
seat. My seat is at the same height as the bars.

[sms]

What you probably want is something similar to this
<http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/gravity/grav_dutch_xii.htm> or this
<http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/cafe_latte_x_disc.htm>
the latter may require a stem riser adapter if the bars can't be raised
high enough (or if increasing the height with the adjustable angle stem
decreases the reach too much).

It depends on where your back problems are. If you can't comfortably
ride in the racing position then don't get racing bars (obviously).

[sms]

On 5/15/2013 10:35 AM, Duane wrote:

> You have to buy the bike with the proper geometry and then lower the
> seat. My seat is at the same height as the bars.

That can be very difficult to do these days due to what the
manufacturers have done to minimize frame cost. To buy a bicycle with a
frame that's large enough for the handlebars to be at the proper height
with the seat lowered, often means buying a larger frame than necessary,
and then the reach is too far.

It's not a hard problem to solve at the factory, just don't cut the
steer tube so short. It's easy for a shop to cut it down if it's too
long (or just put some spacers on the top and some on the bottom).

The other issue is that sometimes you may want to vary your bar height.
It's a pain with threadless headsets, easy with threaded headsets,
though there are several devices for height adjustment of threadless
headsets.

I also like Sheldon Brown's solution at
<http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup.html>.

[Duane]

Some manufacturers offer more choices than others but you're basically
correct. I don't have problems finding a frame that fits me. An out of
the box 54 works for me in a Tarmac or Roubaix. But I have a couple
friends that are longer than usual and they've had issues. Seems to be
especially difficult for tall women.

> I also like Sheldon Brown's solution at
> <http://sheldonbrown.com/handsup.html>.

Yep.
>

[thirty-six]

Buy a used bike that you know you will be happy with. Red is a good
colour.

>
> Also which riding position is better for a bad back??

Let her do the work.

> I'm thinking on

Not generally a good idea, make sure what you are looking for is
competent and use your instinct.

> a hybrid the load is on the base of the spine which will have to
> absorb a lot of shocks.. whereas weight is more distributed to your
> arms and legs in racer position??

Touring position puts the top of the drop bars 1" above saddle. A
high rise quill stem will get you higher on an old pattern steel frame

[thirty-six]

On May 14, 5:08 am, Philip <n...@there.com> wrote:
> Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> >If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
> >Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
> >has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
> >adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>
> >Oh... I see you balked at $700.  Never mind.  But I *know* these guys
> >have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
> >great!
>

> I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
> show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>
> My budget in dollars would be about $5-600. In the UK the Surly sells
> for 1000 UKP. It does seem to be a very nice bike from what I read!
>
> Yes, very excited to get riding again. :)

let's see if the UK pound is to be withdrawn. you may do much with
£300 on a second-hand bike. Buy a Dawes, Thompson, Raleigh or other
brand touring bike and spend £80 or so on a standard wheelset if the
originals are not up to it.

[thirty-six]

On May 14, 12:22 pm, John B. <johnbsloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 May 2013 05:08:32 +0100, Philip <n...@there.com> wrote:

> >Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote :

>
> >>If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
> >>Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
> >>has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
> >>adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>
> >>Oh... I see you balked at $700.  Never mind.  But I *know* these guys
> >>have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
> >>great!
>
> >I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
> >show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>
> It did show up, here in Thailand :-)

Yes, some of my fruit is coming from there.

[thirty-six]

On May 14, 1:35 pm, Duane <duane.heb...@group-upc.com> wrote:
> On 5/14/2013 12:08 AM, Philip wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > Dan O<danover...@gmail.com>  wrote :

>
> >> If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
> >> Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
> >> has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
> >> adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>
> >> Oh... I see you balked at $700.  Never mind.  But I *know* these guys
> >> have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
> >> great!
>
> > I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
> > show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>
> > My budget in dollars would be about $5-600. In the UK the Surly sells
> > for 1000 UKP. It does seem to be a very nice bike from what I read!
>
> > Yes, very excited to get riding again. :)
>
> I usually get deals by buying last year's model.  You can probably get a
> decent bike for that price by shopping around.  I'd stick with a shop to
> get a bike that fits properly.  If you have a few around you try to go
> there and talk to them.  Tell them what you're looking for and what you
> want to spend.

Nah, it's going to be a minimum of £500 for a dated "new" model for
anything good.

[thirty-six]

has Molyslip been blessed by the pope?

[thirty-six]

but it's fugly. better to get a red bike with shorter cranks, keep
the seat low and the quill stem high.

[thirty-six]

On May 16, 2:55 am, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:08 am, Philip <n...@there.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote :
>
> > >If you can afford a little over a thousand dollars, the steel framed
> > >Surly Long Haul Trucker is a very sturdy touring bike, and my 58 cm
> > >has a really long head tube and allows a lot of handlebar height
> > >adjustment as you get your form back and can tuck down more.
>
> > >Oh... I see you balked at $700.  Never mind.  But I *know* these guys
> > >have some better suggestions, and your enthusiasm to Ride Bike is
> > >great!
>
> > I should have mentioned that I'm in the UK. The UKP symbol did not
> > show in my post in this newsreader either. Strange.
>
> > My budget in dollars would be about $5-600. In the UK the Surly sells
> > for 1000 UKP. It does seem to be a very nice bike from what I read!
>
> > Yes, very excited to get riding again. :)
>
> let's see if the UK pound is to be withdrawn.

not yet, but there have been threats.

[tussock]

Philip wrote:

> Hey folks I used to ride a steel touring Raleigh, went everywhere on
> it through woods, up and over tree roots, up and down kerbs (lifting
> the front wheel by pulling on the bars to clear the kerb on the way
> up, likewise on the way down to soften impact)..

Note: you're supposed to chuck the bike forward to raise the front, not
"lift" it. Less energy used, and it helps get the rear up when you get back
over it again.

> It's about 15 years since I had that bike and I haven't ridden since..
> looking at the market now I'm confused about what I should get.
> Everythings changed.

Mountain bikes, eh, took over the low end of the market.

> I intend to mostly ride on the road, but there's a moderately rough
> concrete path I must use..
>
> I'm also overweight, and not very fit, and have a bit of a bad back..
> I hanker after drop bars - always felt more in control with drops than
> straight bars - but maybe I'm working off memory of when I was younger
> and the reality could be somewhat different today..

That "control" feeling is about how much weight you've got over the
front wheel. Lean forward, you get more control. Drops put your weight
forward.

You can get that all the time on a short frame, or a 29" wheel that puts
the back wheel further away from you (but makes it harder to pop the front
and get 'round tight stuff). Little short frames are easiest to work with.

> From what I've heard modern racer bikes (now called road bikes!?)
> have wheels that buckle if you look at them the wrong way, and can
> literally only be used on roads.. so no good for the footpath...

Racing bikes, what do you expect?

> MTB is heavy and slow..

Any modern aluminium MTB (hardtail) is lighter than your old steel
tourer, and if you pump the tires well up (most handle up to 80 PSI) they
run plently fast. Just avoid the ones with stupid gigantic knobs on them,
unless you're planning on racing in mud, get the shop to fit something
sensible.

> Hybrid is OK but straight bars.. My LBS suggested a cyclocross.. which
> appears to be right up my street.. but they start at �700 !!!

Racing bikes, what do you expect?

> My budget is about �300 and I'm looking at heavily discounted bargains
> and quality cheap bikes..

Last year's model will help, as will less gears or pinch brakes. The
pricey bits on a low-end bike are the number of gears and the brake disks.

> So far the BTwin Triban 3 has peaked my interest, Cannondale Bad Boy 7
> for a hybrid type, or do they still make a steel bike like my old
> Raleigh...

Steel is shite, but some people do still make them.

> Any advice please..
>
> Also which riding position is better for a bad back?? I'm thinking on

> a hybrid the load is on the base of the spine which will have to
> absorb a lot of shocks.. whereas weight is more distributed to your
> arms and legs in racer position??

Consult your GP about a proper set of core strengthening exercises so
you can get cycling, they'll send you to a physiotheripist. Or just take a
gamble and look 'em up on the net. Once the appropriate muscles are up to
snuff, you can ride in whatever position you like, though ones using less
energy let you do it longer.

For me: up on the pedals, strait legs, weight forward, loose hands.
Gives everything a rest on the downhills. Only tuck down for headwinds on
the flat. Getting a small enough bike that you can /switch/ positions and
still use it should be best. Remember you can stretch on the bike, and also
get off and _eat something_ if things are going bad, grab a coffee maybe.

--
tussock

[sms]

What does the color have to do with anything? Finding decent bikes with
quill stems is increasingly hard though a few still exist.

In any case, without knowing the type of back problems it's difficult to
know the optimal position. For many riders, they find the crouched over
position the worst in terms of back pain.

There are sufficient handlebar options in terms of shape and height to
change the position if it's not ideal with road bars. In the U.S. Soma
Fabrications offers moustache bars that can replace road bars (and
another model for mountain bike bars). People have put brifters on these
types of bars with no problems.

I think it's hard to find road bars that can fit into a "mountain bike"
stem and use the brake levers and shifters but not other way around.

I need to get a road bicycle for the spousal unit and I will likely get
a Mixte frame 700c model with road bars) and put on moustache bars. She
likes her "old lady" riding position.

[thirty-six]

On May 16, 6:26 pm, sms <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 5/15/2013 7:07 PM, thirty-six wrote:
>
> > On May 15, 5:42 pm, sms <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> On 5/14/2013 4:17 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> >>> I won't get into the "which bike is better" discussion (Mine, of
> >>> course, are the best) but if your back is getting a bit stiff than
> >>> raise the handle bars. People who ride long distances will often have
> >>> the top of the bars at about the same height as the seat.
>
> >> Just remember that most road bikes these days have threadless headsets
> >> and the manufacturer cuts the steerer tube way too short so to raise the
> >> bars to the level of the seat requires a funky extension adapter, or
> >> better yet, an adjustable stem, i.e. <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001V5GLHY>.
>
> > but it's fugly.   better to get a red bike with shorter cranks, keep
> > the seat low and the quill stem high.
>
> What does the color have to do with anything? Finding decent bikes with
> quill stems is increasingly hard though a few still exist.

Red is the colour of passion, of love, of strength and stability. To
use any other would be an inferior selection for a bicycle from those
who choose to visit here, IMNSHO. :-)

>
> In any case, without knowing the type of back problems it's difficult to
> know the optimal position. For many riders, they find the crouched over
> position the worst in terms of back pain.

Been there and the best hand position is with the thumbs pointing
forward, enabled by a North Road bar or a racing drop of adequate
width.

>
> There are sufficient handlebar options in terms of shape and height to
> change the position if it's not ideal with road bars. In the U.S. Soma
> Fabrications offers moustache bars that can replace road bars (and
> another model for mountain bike bars). People have put brifters on these
> types of bars with no problems.

Mustachio bars were for penny-farthings, so as to give space for the
thighs underneath and a place on top to rest one's legs when coasting
and getting off, I don't see that a particularly beneficial use on a
safety bicycle with freewheeling clutch, diamond frame or otherwise,
whether or not the rider suffers with back pain..

>
> I think it's hard to find road bars that can fit into a "mountain bike"
> stem and use the brake levers and shifters but not other way around.

I like this whisky, got from M&S, called Cassidy's from Cooley
distillery. It's like Clontarf but than I remember of that one. It's
a shame they could not have used the same recipe. but it will do for
now. Goes very well with a weak cup of green/Ceylon tea with conny-
onny.