Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure
bicycle_disciple
Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g
In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)
Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.
Lou Holtman
It is no cleaning issue. Shimano has/had some problems with their
chains. They all fail in that manner. I don't know if they sort it out
by now. Buy Campy chains ;-)
Lou
thirty-six
> RBT,
>
> Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
> sensible). Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g
>
> In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
> 200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
> the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
> clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
> acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
> all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
> salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
> to a chain? (sarcastic tone)
Possibly do some damage if the soap was really soda and it was left in
solution for a couple of days. The correct application will be
washing-up detergent solution as it is a little acidic and will help
to nuetralise the salt. Then put it in hot oil and boil off the
water.
>
> Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
> treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
> high performance chains.
I shouldn't really, iI wont use them.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:7f2f58d8-41f9-42f2...@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
OK, we sell maybe 100 Shimano 10-speed chains/month. Probably most of them
Ultegra. And over the past two years, I've seen maybe two chains fail in the
manner shown in the photo (and never seen a chain with multiple cracks, but
can't be sure they weren't there because we would be looking primarily at
the link that failed and could have missed others).
Whatever is going on, it's not universal. The Shimano warning cited says not
to use an acid or alkali-based cleaning agent, and yet I presume that's what
I've been using for some time (a diluted mix of citrus-based cleaner and
extremely-hot water, put into a wide-mouth sports drink bottle, and shaken,
not stirred). No issues for me.
I would be checking the drivetrain very carefully for worn & twisted teeth,
and would like to know more about the type of riding and manner in which the
person shifts. But I don't think there's a general issue with these chains
or it would have shown up in the shop many, many times. 10-speed (10 in the
back) road bikes are the majority of our business.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Nate Nagel
How mucky do the roads have to be where having cleaned a chain already
by 200km is not inappropriate?
I mean, I'm pretty much a neat freak, but I'd have to be riding on
salted roads every day to even contemplate that. Normally I'd just wipe
down and squirt some loob on it and call it good.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Jobst Brandt
>> Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are
>> defensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g
>> In brief: A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
>> 200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations
>> on the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he
>> used to clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I
>> can see how acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure
>> the user told me all he used was some soap and plain hot water to
>> wash away the road salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this
>> combo do this much damage to a chain?
>> Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
>> treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of
>> today's high performance chains.
> OK, we sell maybe 100 Shimano 10-speed chains/month. Probably most
> of them Ultegra. And over the past two years, I've seen maybe two
> chains fail in the manner shown in the photo (and never seen a chain
> with multiple cracks, but can't be sure they weren't there because
> we would be looking primarily at the link that failed and could have
> missed others).
> Whatever is going on, it's not universal. The Shimano warning cited
> says not to use an acid or alkali-based cleaning agent, and yet I
> presume that's what I've been using for some time (a diluted mix of
> citrus-based cleaner and extremely-hot water, put into a wide-mouth
> sports drink bottle, and shaken, not stirred). No issues for me.
> I would be checking the drivetrain very carefully for worn & twisted
> teeth, and would like to know more about the type of riding and
> manner in which the person shifts. But I don't think there's a
> general issue with these chains or it would have shown up in the
> shop many, many times. 10-speed (10 in the back) road bikes are the
> majority of our business.
My experience years ago when Regina was leaving the chain business,
someone offered me a stack of chains in those small cardboard boxes.
I used one that cracked and failed even though it was the old style
with a small pin over-stand on both sides, old roller width and side
plate thickness... old heavy derailleur chains of the kind they made
for many years reliably.
I inspected more of these chains before using them and found they all
had crack initiation, probably from improper heat treatment or an
improper alloy. In any event, that was my experience with chain
failure and I haven't had any since with Shimano chains, but then I
don't use flush side narrow chains for my 7-speed gear clusters.
Jobst Brandt
Tim McNamara
<7f2f58d8-41f9-42f2...@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
bicycle_disciple <1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:
He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-Because-He-Posted-Anonymously stated that
Simple Green could weaken bike chains and cause them to crack at the
outer plate hole for the pins. IIRC the mechanism was hydrogen
embrittlement. I have no way of knowing if this was factually correct
or was hot air (hot electrons?).
<http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/11/technical-faq/technical-qa-with-l
ennard-zinn-not-so-simple-green-2_9216>
Simple Green seems to claim their "Extreme Simple Green" product
protects against hydrogen embrittlement:
http://industrial.simplegreen.com/ind_products_extreme.php
"Extreme Simple Green�s safety upon aircraft materials and precision
cleaning surfaces comes from a combination of proven anti-corrosion
agents. A time tested coupling agent allows these to work together to
battle corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement. These same qualities make
Extreme Simple Green safe to put through pressure washing equipment,
rack wash systems, dip tanks and parts washers, without any equipment
damage."
--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
Tim McNamara
<7f2f58d8-41f9-42f2...@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
bicycle_disciple <1.crazy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just wondering what you think of today's high performance chains.
Also, they are ridiculously overpriced. $50-75 for a *bike chain*?!?
$15 is overpriced already, but bike component marketers have figured out
that the bike-buying public wants to *look* tech savvy rather than *be*
tech savvy, so they'll buy overpriced goods with lots of technoblather
on the packaging.
thirty-six
Use grease in your chain and dont worry until it squeaks, then whip it
off and put on a ready cleaned and greased chain. The grease has to be
around the pin and melting it in is an effective method of it getting
there. Possibly petroleum jelly may be good in very cold conditions.
bicycle_disciple
Jobst,
Thanks for replying. Do you know what heat treatment protocols chains
in specific receive? There seems to be this characteristic failure
pattern that a majority of people have been noticing, as was shown in
the post. http://bit.ly/bauy8g
-Ron
"Bicycle Disciple"
bicycle_disciple
> In article
> <7f2f58d8-41f9-42f2-a4a1-89064f83f...@g26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
What I don't get it is that user never claimed he used Simple Green.
Interesting comment from you, nevertheless. But to make me believe
that a new chain failed due to cleaning issues in 2 days time will
require a lot more, I suppose.
TheCoz
wrote:
> "bicycle_disciple" <1.crazyboy.o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Would the salt (brine) compound used for the road conditions be the
cause of the chain to weaken? I know that in the northern
states that many cars will tend to rust quickly due to the excessive
road salt used during winter time.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers,
Rick in Tennessee
Jobst Brandt
> Thanks for replying. Do you know what heat treatment protocols
> chains in specific receive? There seems to be this characteristic
> failure pattern that a majority of people have been noticing, as was
> shown in the post.
I have no idea what steel is used or how to heat treat it properly. I
only know that I have ridden many chains that work reliably until they
are worn to greater length, aka "chain stretch". I put on a new chain
to avoid having to replace sprockets because they are out of pitch from
running an elongated chain... if I do it soon enough.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
Jobst Brandt
Chalo
>
> Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
> sensible). Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g
>
> In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
> 200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
> the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
> clean the chain had a role to play in the failure.
I stopped using Shimano chains about twenty years ago when it became
apparent that breakage of the Uniglide chains I used at the time was a
recurrent problem.
I have worked at five different bike shops over the span of many
years, and none of them ever sold Shimano chains except by special
request. Sedis/Sachs/SRAM chains were always the default (and very
reliable). Their reliability does not seem to have been significantly
affected by added shift-enhancing features or reduction in size over
that time.
Chalo