Flashing lights cause accidents -- police experience
Andre Jute
D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
identifiers.
Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm Those who oppose effective
lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
at all.
I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)
I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
light consultant with contacts?
Andre Jute
"The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
Ricart Medina
AMuzi
Been done. The way-before-its-time Ampec Belt Beacon was a
cute bright cheap Xenon amber strobe. My other company
distributed them 30 years ago but they are long gone now.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Sir Ridesalot
> As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> identifiers.
>
> Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
> and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
> flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
> about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
> after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
> possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
> at all.
>
> I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
> knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
> none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
> who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
> since went out of business.)
>
> I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
> telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
> would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
> Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
> light consultant with contacts?
>
> Andre Jute
> "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
> protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
> Ricart Medina
Hi there.
It's nice to see that studies seem to agree with my present rear
lighting setup. Many years ago I had one of those Belt Beacons Andrew
mentioned. It was a fantastic light but my bicycle was not considered
legal for night riding because it did not have either a red reflector
or a red light on the rear. I added a small red reflector to make it
legal.
Now I have four rear lights permanently attached to a Minoura T-bar
that is mounted under my rear rack. The two outboard lights are red
and I run them on solid model whilst the two inboard lights are amber
and I run them on blinking mode. This make the bicycle legal and the
amber lights are recognized as cautionary by just about everyone. I
run two lights just in case one goes out whilst I'm riding and because
the two inboard amber lights are very visible at long distances when
they are both on.
Cheers from Peter
thirty-six
> On Feb 13, 7:20 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> > D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> > flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> > identifiers.
>
> > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
In UK, amber flashing lights are suggested for users of mobility
scooters (powered wheelchair) when used on dual carriageways (treated
by motorists as motorways, some actually are, although not legally
defined as such) not subjected to a speed limit less than 50mph
(IIRC). So, although not legal on a bicycle here the addition of a
tow truck beacon to ones luggage could be well worthwhile.
Klaus M. Müller
> Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
> and other "confusion" accidents.
One interesting statement in the cited article is: Lot's of flashing
lights in the scene makes the situation unsafe.
This also sounds plausible for bright flashing LED lights on bicycles:
They may have some benefit in cases with a very very low number of
cyclists - but do more damage than benefit if cycling starts to be
more than 5% of the traffic. If it flashes everywhere, it takes lot of
brain power to know what is going on.
Klaus
DougC
I don't know that any particular color is as good as any other--but one
thing that does make sense to me (concerning motor vehicle use) is to
prohibit civilian cars from having ANY blue lights on them, and then
only allow emergency vehicles to have blue (emergency) lights. As it is
now [where I live] emergency vehicles can have blue emergency lights,
but aren't restricted to them.
As far as my bicycles go..... my electric lights flash, and my
reflectors are steady-on. ;)
~
Andre Jute
> On 14 Feb, 04:46, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 13, 7:20 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> > > D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> > > flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> > > identifiers.
>
> > > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
I thought the law was more general, that a flashing amber light is
compulsory on a slow-moving vehicle, like a tractor or one of those
huge low-loaders they use to move road machinery.
In the light of modern research, it is stupid to ban amber lights for
bicycle use.
Andre Jute
Reformed petrol head
Car-free since 1992
Greener than thou!
Andre Jute
> On 14 Feb., 01:20, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> > lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
> > and other "confusion" accidents.
>
> One interesting statement in the cited article is: Lot's of flashing
> lights in the scene makes the situation unsafe.
>
> This also sounds plausible for bright flashing LED lights on bicycles:
> They may have some benefit in cases with a very very low number of
> cyclists - but do more damage than benefit if cycling starts to be
> more than 5% of the traffic. If it flashes everywhere, it takes lot of
> brain power to know what is going on.
Yo, Klaus, if bicycle traffic hereabouts ever amounts to 5% of the
vehicles on any piece of road, I'd think I died and through some
bureaucratic oversight was admitted to heaven.
The reality is that there are very few bicyclists, that my bikes are
the only ones I've ever seen out on the roads which have hub dynamos,
and that only one other person I know has a battery light that
actually works.
When bicycle traffic gets up to five or ten per cent, cyclists will
have a voice and the law will be applied fairly between cyclists and
motorists, and as a consequence motorists will look out for cyclists,
as they do in The Netherlands, and flashing amber lights will no
longer be necessary. Hurry the day -- but don't do anything rash like
holding your breath.
Andre Jute
A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. --H.H.Munro
("Saki")(1870-1916)
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
Andre Jute
> On Feb 13, 7:20 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> > D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> > flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> > identifiers.
>
> > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
Mmm. I have a Minoura T-bar in my junkbox...
Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?
Andre Jute
I'm not a know-all. I don't need to be. I know who to ask.
thirty-six
I think its only on derestricted dual carriageways and motorways that
they are a legal requirement. Wide loads are restricted to 30mph on
motorways which gives an official speed differential with cars of
40mph. All escorted oversize loads have warning beacons on whatever
road. It's this 40mph differential that I think it is worked by. So
if a dual carriageway is limited to 40mph, the big danger will be for
foot users on the carriageway. If the maximum is 50mph then scooter
users come in. Of course this also means cyclists, especially at the
higher limit of 60 or 70mph but no suggestion can be found.
>
> In the light of modern research, it is stupid to ban amber lights for
> bicycle use.
They're not banned, I think they are permitted as direction
indicators.
thirty-six
> as they do in The Netherlands, and flashing amber lights will no
> longer be necessary. Hurry the day -- but don't do anything rash like
If you are to share the road safely with high speed motor vehicles on
a busy road then an amber beacon does seem most appropriate. For many
years it has been the standard for a slow moving vehicle or a recovery
vehicle attending an imobilized vehicle. It signifies that caution
should be erm.... (oops, cant think of the words, must take a nap).
Henry
> As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> identifiers.
>
> Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
> and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
> flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
> about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
> after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
> possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
> at all.
>
> I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
> knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
> none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
> who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
> since went out of business.)
>
> I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
> telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
> would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
> Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
> light consultant with contacts?
>
> Andre Jute
> "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
> protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
> Ricart Medina
get some brown/amber cellophane and a rubber band
thirty-six
> On Feb 14, 1:20 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> > D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> > flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> > identifiers.
>
> > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> > lights will see only that he says flashing lights cause "moth effect"
> > and other "confusion" accidents. What I see is that he says amber
> > flashing lights should be used instead of red and white. I've known
> > about the downsides of red and white flashing lights all along but
> > after considerable though decided that I'd rather be seen by a
> > possibly confused driver than be hit by him because he didn't see me
> > at all.
>
> > I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
> > knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
> > none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
> > who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
> > since went out of business.)
>
> > I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
> > telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
> > would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
> > Yo, Scharfie, don't you put yourself forward as some kind of a bicycle
> > light consultant with contacts?
>
> > Andre Jute
> > "The brain of an engineer is a delicate instrument which must be
> > protected against the unevenness of the ground." -- Wifredo-Pelayo
> > Ricart Medina
>
> get some brown/amber cellophane and a rubber band
The amber lights used in europe are of a specific colour, and it would
be well to stick to that. LED stop/tail lamps can be had from truck
motor factors and I'll hazard a guess that amber lights for recovery
trucks are also available as LEDs.
Sir Ridesalot
> On Feb 14, 4:46 am, Sir Ridesalot <i_am_cycle_pat...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 13, 7:20 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> > > D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> > > flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> > > identifiers.
>
> > > Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
Hi there.
I'm not sure who makes my amber lights. They are identical to my red
lights except the amber ones have amber LED's and lenses and have a
blue body instead of a black one. I bought them from the bicycling
department at Canadian Tire a few years ago. Each unit is powered by
two AAA batteries and they run for months on a set of Alkaline
batteries on the fastest flashing mode.
Cheers from Peter
thirty-six
and (in UK) they are also permitted as pedal lights (constant not
flashing). Amber pedal reflectors are required, in general and it
seems that any colour wheel reflector is allowed (odd).
Pat Clancy
> Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?
>
> Andre Jute
A little Googling turned up this RealLITE GOLD amber light:
http://www.reallite.com/details.htm
Pat Clancy
Bernhard Agthe
Andre Jute wrote:
> As y'all know, in addition to steady dynamo lights (BUMM Cyo and
> D'Toplight) on day and night, I also run white forward and red rear
> flashing lights on day and night as attention attractors, as bike
> identifiers.
Which would make your bike illegal on any public street in Germany. The
following is the one (and only) legal setup here:
- 1 white front light (non-flashing)
- 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
- 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
- about 15 reflectors:
- 1 white in front,
- 1 red at the rear,
- 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
- 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
- 4 in the pedals.
All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.
Additionally there's a media-generated hype that makes a remarkable
number of cyclists carry reflective vests, plastic hats, ...
The german version of AAA actively requests school children to wear
reflective vests so that car drivers can speed and not get the blame if
they run children over, because the children are to blame for not
wearing carnival-colored vests?!
> Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
> an apparently very experienced police instructor.
...
Basically that's a more picturesque description for the long-known fact
that the human visual system (a) cannot correctly place flashing lights
and (2) is most susceptible to movement (blinking) to allow the Hunter
see his prey - even if the prey is well-camouflaged.
As a result, a cyclist with good, bright, non-flashing lights is much
safer in normal traffic, as has been explained on this news group
several times.
Now, I do acknowledge the desire of the ordinary cyclist to have
"extravagant" lighting, i.e. flashing lights. I do attribute that to the
fact that car's headlights have evolved from dim yellow glowing bulbs to
massively blinding overly-bright "weapons" - with many car drivers
running their lights even during the day and adding their fog front
lights as soon as the sun is not shining. Add in stupid (illegal here)
light effects (e.g. lights below the car). This makes cyclists,
pedestrians and CHILDREN practically invisible (they have no light or
are restricted to 3 Watt lights).
Also I do have the problem that I cycle regularly at night through a
park where there are lots of black-clad joggers. No way to see them
early with typical bike lights.
Next problem are the typical bike trails here: outside of towns or
villages they are often on one side of the street, about 4m (12ft)
beside the street and 0.3m (1ft) below the street level. As a result a
cyclist is exactly in the zone, where the oncoming car's lights are
brightest (you are required to cycle on the wrong side of the street,
anyway), rendering the cyclist unable to see the cycle-trail (which is
very likely to have bumps, dirt or branches lying on it).
So basically as a cyclist you are required to be blinded - which
according to law requires you to stop. To put it bluntly: cycling is
almost forbidden.
> I wonder if it is worth writing to someone like Dealz Extreme and
> telling them that they could make a buck if one of their suppliers
> would put an amber lene on one of the good flashing lights they sell.
There are enough "bike lights" out there that are not fit to be used on
a bicycle, without adding "amber flashers" - I regularly see more or
less "normal" flashlights held by the user (who is barely able to
control his/her bike, anyway) or clipped to the backpack, illuminating
the sky (whatever that's supposed to help).
A few years ago I had custom-modified my rear light and had replaced the
bulb with a few LEDs (one out of six blinking - the blinking was not
noticeable in normal conditions but only in case the dynamo failed
halfway home). After the modification I always felt safe from rear
traffic. Just recently I actually replaced that light with a stock "BUMM
Toplight Flat Plus" - this has only one LED, but is rather bright and
has a very small active area. Human perception is especially sensitive
to small, bright light sources, so this light is very effective.
Actually I do think that anyone who misses to see this rear light will
miss *any* bike rear light - no matter whether it flashes or not.
As for front lights, there are a lot of cyclists with these, too. Having
one come in your direction is actively dangerous, because you do not
really know where they are, you get distracted by these lights and they
do not see anything (because their eyes keep trying to adjust for
"bright - dark - bright - dark"). Again, a car driver who does not see a
normal (non-flashing) bike light, will not see *any* bike light. They
will be noticing nothing except their GPS, their phone and the child on
the rear seat.
So, there are two places left, where cyclists with normal lights are in
danger. One is a bridge - as cars are behind the bridge, they cannot see
the cyclist, and as cars cross the bridge, they only notice him too
late. Of course that bridge is not limited to a sensible speed (40km/h
would be ok, I guess), but cars usually drive 80-90 km/h. No way to
brake in time.
The other dangerous place for cyclists is the separated bike trail - at
the next intersection. Many bike trails are built to require the
cyclists (who wants to continue straight-on) to turn down the crossing
street for up to ten meters. This may sound little, but keep in mind
that the cyclist has to manage the obstacle (S-curve, sharp) and all the
while his (her) light is pointing into empty space (along the side
street). Especially at night, car drivers will not be able to see the
bike light and the cyclist's attention is focused on the obstacle -
creating a very dangerous intersection. In my home town, of eight
cyclists killed in 2008, five were cycling on the bike lane, exactly as
required by law. This is less a problem of light than a problem of road
construction (and German authorities are especially thick-headed).
So, in order to be safer, you could wear a head-light (which allows you
to actively "warn" car drivers who cut it too close). But putting
flashing lights on your bike will not help you much.
Hopefully my point of view is clear...
Ciao..
Andre Jute
Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
cycling than my own...
As I predicted, those who oppose flashing lights saw only what they
wanted to see in this policeman's thoughtful and informed article.
That includes you. I forgive you, for you mean well.
However,
1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.
2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.
3. The policeman cites a good deal of police and emergency experience
which adds up to the confirmation of the laboratory results.
4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
you have one).
5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as
cyclists. It is the cyclist's responsibility to make himself visible
to drivers. And, if he doesn't think it is his responsibility *to
drivers* to make himself visible, he should consider the discrepancy
in mass and velocity between a car and a bicycle, and make himself
visible as his respoinsibility to his family and to society (at least
where there is socialized medicine).
6. Wherever this balance of responsibility lies, it should be clear by
now <g> that I think flashing lights help, and know that flashing
amber lights front and rear are superior to rear red and front white
flashing lights.
Andre Jute
Relentless rigour -- Gaius Germanicus Caesar
Popular translation: 'Of course I ran my chariot over the peasant on
his bicycle! He was on my road, wasn't he?' -- Caligula
Andre Jute
Thanks, Pat. I live in Ireland and the problem as always is to get
lights here in one piece at some reasonable cost. There is also the
question of where and how to mount those lights on a fully fitted out
trekking bike as they supply seatpost and handlebar clamps only which
assume a bare racing bike; their fittings would leave the lights
behind my handlebar bag and my racktop bag. BTW, I think the guys
offering this light are recumbent riders as their lights appear to be
most thoroughly developed for 'bents.
Andre Jute
Visit Andre's recipes:
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/FOOD.html
(PeteCresswell)
>Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
>an apparently very experienced police instructor.
>http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm
In a local newspaper article last year a state police officer
characterized lights on a vehicle that is parked on the shoulder
as "drunk magnets".
--
PeteCresswell
Andre Jute
This guy I refer to distinguishes between ineffective/
counterproductive lights and effective lights. He says that the mess
of flashing blue, red and white lights are, among other things, drunk
magnets, but amber lights work; as evidence he cites falling numbers
of secondary roadside accidents to police and emergency vehicles when
the red/white/blue are switched off and only the amber remains.
In short, red, white and blue bad, amber good.
Andre Jute
I once met a girl called Amber. On a train.
thirty-six
Well they have been used as "hazard warning lights" for a long time.
Bernhard Agthe
Andre Jute wrote:
(Full quote removed)
> Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
> the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
> cycling than my own...
As if they even tried - they invented the bike lanes some time during
the last millenium, which made riding bikes more dangerous...
> 1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
> indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.
Right, so people keep looking at your flash lights and since most people
tend to drive / ride / walk where they look, they might actually hit you?
> 2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
> attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.
Amber blinking lights are used (a) as turning indicator or (b) as
emergency indicator. Many people here confuse them with parking lights
(when parking illegally), but I'm not sure whether that indicates their
state of mind or rather just the blankness of their mind...
> 4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
> identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
> the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
> lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
> especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
> Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
> work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
> courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
> you have one).
Your argument will backfire - at least in Germany. Someone at court will
have your lights analyzed, will find out that your lights don't conform
with the legal requirements (Exactly one white front light, exactly one
red rear light) and then you take all the (legal) blame. Check your
local requirements!
As for the rest, I used to have my customized light, which had six LEDs
built in, five of them steady (one with capacitor) and one with a
blinking circuit. You didn't see the blinking while the others were on,
the light was just a bit "unsteady", but the blinking light kept on
blinking for about two hours after the dynamo stopped working (while
riding home in a rainy night). This light was purely for backup - and
that's what it did. But with a modern hub dynamo, there's no longer any
necessity for it.
Yesterday I had a cyclist with a flashing rear light in front of me. The
guy was quite crazy, with lots of extra reflectors all over his bike.
But due to the blinking light, I didn't know whether he was further off
or closer than he seemed to be - apart from that it was extremely
annoying, because it disturbed my vision - with my eyes constantly
trying to adjust between bright and dark. If you intend to keep your
flashers, please don't mind my not riding near you.
> 5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
> if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
> automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as
No, I'd rather see the automobile as a potentially lethal weapon - cars
kill lots of people all over the world. Adding the fact that (in urban
areas) the car traffic is often more jammed than running, I'd say that
the concept of "car traffic" has proven itself being wrong. So I do
suggest stricter traffic regulation (e.g. lower speed limits for cars),
which would have the main effects:
* traffic is less dangerous (if the restrictions are enforced)
* cycling will be more attractive (the car's speed advantage is reduced)
* people need to start to see that cars are dangerous (not the cyclists
nor the pedestrians nor the children)...
As for your "cyclist is responsible" - I do support your argument as far
that the cyclist is responsible to have working lights, to use common
sense while cycling and to keep to the basic traffic rules (stop on red
light, ...).
If the cyclist learns to cycle well (e.g. vehicular cycling), he/she
should be relatively safe while cycling. It really does depend on the
behaviour of the cyclist - and I do see a lot of "stupid" cyclists, some
of who have little (if any) control over their bike, run red lights,
don't look where they're going or just cycle without lights on the
sidewalk - at top speed...
Once the cyclist behaves well, he/she is very likely to not have an
accident - but then, remember what I said about mandatory bike lanes?
> 6. Wherever this balance of responsibility lies, it should be clear by
> now <g> that I think flashing lights help, and know that flashing
> amber lights front and rear are superior to rear red and front white
> flashing lights.
Basically it's a question of "warfare" - if cars have brighter lights,
cyclists want that, too. Then we start with daytime running lights
(which is pretty common by now) and the "german AAA" starts equipping
children with idiotic reflective vests. Actually they (more or less)
demand that children do not walk to school - but do you want to punish
children? Just to allow car drivers to speed? This is crazy - did you
know that a sinificant number of children who have serious accidents sit
in their parents' car while having these accidents? So, shouldn't we
punish cars (-> lethal weapon) instead of the children (for whom not
being able to visit a friend may be "real" punishment!)?
As for cycling lights, get a good dynamo-driven bike light (these are
quite good). Check your regulations (and if allowed, mount a second
headlight if you want). But please, don't come near me with flashing
lights on a bike.
Actually, most of the people I do see with flashing bike lights would be
better off with some basic lessons in riding a bike or with some common
sense (that surely does not apply to you, but to many riders I do see).
You see, recently someone with a bike helmet was in front of me. He
didn't look where he was going, cycled on the wrong side of the street
and I finally saw him running a red light. He probably thought that he
was safe, because he was wearing a helmet (which he payed money for).
So, my experience is that people like to "buy safety" - but then they
take unnecessary risks in compensation.
Sure, buying "more" lights may gain you more safety, but does it really
make you safer or do you just /feel/ safer?
Ciao...
PS: please don't full-quote again, my newsreader don't like that ;-)
SMS
> I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
> knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
> none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
> who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
> since went out of business.)
I use an amber xenon strobe with my 12V lighting system.
See
"http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/STROBE-3A/AMBER-XENON-FLASHER/-/1.html".
Look at the reviews--apparently I'm not the only one using it on a bicycle!
Yes, amber is the best choice, but good luck finding one. Remember the
old Belt Beacon?
For an AA powered amber LED light look at
"http://www.lightsforalloccasions.com/Ultra-Bright-LED-Beacon-battery-operatedJack-AMBER-410.aspx"
thirty-six
> Bernhard Agthe <dark2s...@gmx.net> considered Tue, 16 Feb 2010
> 11:18:58 +0100 the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >Hi,
>
> >Andre Jute wrote:
> >(Full quote removed)
> >> Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
> >> the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
> >> cycling than my own...
>
> >As if they even tried - they invented the bike lanes some time during
> >the last millenium, which made riding bikes more dangerous...
>
> >> 1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
> >> indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.
>
> >Right, so people keep looking at your flash lights and since most people
> >tend to drive / ride / walk where they look, they might actually hit you?
>
> crashing. . .
>
> >> 2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
> >> attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.
>
> >Amber blinking lights are used (a) as turning indicator or (b) as
> >emergency indicator. Many people here confuse them with parking lights
> >(when parking illegally), but I'm not sure whether that indicates their
> >state of mind or rather just the blankness of their mind...
>
>
> >> 4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
> >> identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
> >> the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
> >> lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
> >> especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
> >> Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
> >> work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
> >> courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
> >> you have one).
>
> >Your argument will backfire - at least in Germany. Someone at court will
> >have your lights analyzed, will find out that your lights don't conform
> >with the legal requirements (Exactly one white front light, exactly one
> >red rear light) and then you take all the (legal) blame. Check your
> >local requirements!
>
> equipment legal in one EU country to be used in another?
> I know I can use StVZO approved lights here in the UK as a legal
> alternative to BS approved ones, and understood that it was a
> requirement of European legislation that members recognised each
> other's standards in this way.
>
> And I've never heard of tourists being advised to change lights when
> they cross borders.
>
> >As for the rest, I used to have my customized light, which had six LEDs
> >built in, five of them steady (one with capacitor) and one with a
> >blinking circuit. You didn't see the blinking while the others were on,
> >the light was just a bit "unsteady", but the blinking light kept on
> >blinking for about two hours after the dynamo stopped working (while
> >riding home in a rainy night). This light was purely for backup - and
> >that's what it did. But with a modern hub dynamo, there's no longer any
> >necessity for it.
>
> same light units are available on battery lights in most cases (which
> also allows you to have one good light to move between several bikes
> as required, which is much better than having a crappy light on each).
>
> >Yesterday I had a cyclist with a flashing rear light in front of me. The
> >guy was quite crazy, with lots of extra reflectors all over his bike.
> >But due to the blinking light, I didn't know whether he was further off
> >or closer than he seemed to be - apart from that it was extremely
> >annoying, because it disturbed my vision - with my eyes constantly
> >trying to adjust between bright and dark. If you intend to keep your
> >flashers, please don't mind my not riding near you.
>
>
>
>
> >> 5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
> >> if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
> >> automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as
>
> >No, I'd rather see the automobile as a potentially lethal weapon - cars
> >kill lots of people all over the world. Adding the fact that (in urban
> >areas) the car traffic is often more jammed than running, I'd say that
> >the concept of "car traffic" has proven itself being wrong. So I do
> >suggest stricter traffic regulation (e.g. lower speed limits for cars),
> >which would have the main effects:
> >* traffic is less dangerous (if the restrictions are enforced)
> >* cycling will be more attractive (the car's speed advantage is reduced)
> >* people need to start to see that cars are dangerous (not the cyclists
> >nor the pedestrians nor the children)...
>
> Unfortunately, it's a tough fight when people have so much invested in
> motor transport (both personally and as a society).
> "I didn't see him" needs to be regarded as an admission of careless
> driving - nobody has any business driving a motor vehicle onto any
> stretch of road that they can't be sure is clear.
> Cycles can never win a lighting battle, and motorists need to be
> educated that not everything that they need to watch out for will be
> lit - which means the absence of lighting is no excuse when you hit
> it.
>
>
>
> >As for cycling lights, get a good dynamo-driven bike light (these are
> >quite good). Check your regulations (and if allowed, mount a second
> >headlight if you want). But please, don't come near me with flashing
> >lights on a bike.
>
> as a secondary light.
>
>
>
> >Actually, most of the people I do see with flashing bike lights would be
> >better off with some basic lessons in riding a bike or with some common
> >sense (that surely does not apply to you, but to many riders I do see).
>
> So does training.
> It's no surprise to find that people who cut costs in one area are
> willing to do so in another.
>
>
>
> >You see, recently someone with a bike helmet was in front of me. He
> >didn't look where he was going, cycled on the wrong side of the street
> >and I finally saw him running a red light. He probably thought that he
> >was safe, because he was wearing a helmet (which he payed money for).
> >So, my experience is that people like to "buy safety" - but then they
> >take unnecessary risks in compensation.
>
>
> >Sure, buying "more" lights may gain you more safety, but does it really
> >make you safer or do you just /feel/ safer?
>
> good, particularly on battery systems).
>
> >Ciao...
>
> >PS: please don't full-quote again, my newsreader don't like that ;-)
The lights you need to match car headlights are reflectors. Put white
reflective tape in three sections on your wheel rims and you get the
flashing lights while the headlights are upon them. You also need a
big red (legal) or amber rear reflector. I decided to hang the amber
trailer reflector from my saddle loops because the red official one is
good enough for closer proximity.
SMS
datakoll
If all lights are ..... then what's left are best emergency lights.
amber falls into this latter light groups.
white and or red and blue from Christtmas tree lights seem to be pop
with LET. and are cheerful which is also in the latter grouping ,
left ?
amber flashing fronts are useful on busy dark intersections. Used here
are small rectagular lights once sold thru Nashbar. 6-7 hung on bars,
rack, backpack. In FLA, my passage was often called out with amusment
at the passing show.
Note the busy intersection and what do you see - flashing amber
signals dangerous icebergs port and starboard. White ? White cancells
out as completely negative.
the negative or positive effect is called by med types - consumation -
that is the nervous system has filled with flashing lights to the max
available, brain has noted to X effect, and that's it for the time
being.
try the cranial nerve excercise. to activate cranal nerves, grasp
hands behind back and pull in various directions as isometrics.
the exercise tends to activate the system allowing consumation itself.
Frank Krygowski
> ... The
> following is the one (and only) legal setup here:
>
> - 1 white front light (non-flashing)
> - 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
> - 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
> - about 15 reflectors:
> - 1 white in front,
> - 1 red at the rear,
> - 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
> - 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
> - 4 in the pedals.
>
> All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.
Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
wheel!
Similarly, I assume that a tourist in Germany (or elsewhere in the EU)
who had some variation on that system would do just fine, am I
correct? I plan on taking a bike to Europe this year, so it does
matter to me.
- Frank Krygowski
Nate Nagel
Along the same lines, does anyone make "suitable" wheel reflectors of
any type? This is more of an academic question than one that has actual
bearing on my life, as they are not required where I live, but if there
were some available that actually stayed put, didn't rattle, etc. I
*might* consider trying them out.
I did put some pieces of reflective tape on the "sidewalls" of some
Deep-Vs on one of my bikes; it looks uber-fredly, but is quite visible
after dark. However, that's not an option for those without
deep-section wheels.
I like the idea of reflective-sidewall tires, but I'm not aware of any
for sale for a price anywhere near the bargain-basement prices for which
one can purchase Paselas...
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
AMuzi
thirty-six
<noEmailto...@stillnodomainey.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:24:33 -0500, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Along the same lines, does anyone make "suitable" wheel reflectors of
> >any type? This is more of an academic question than one that has actual
> >bearing on my life, as they are not required where I live, but if there
> >were some available that actually stayed put, didn't rattle, etc. I
> >*might* consider trying them out.
>
> at the top, one at the bottom. Lightweight, no rattles, meet all
> requirement. Works for everyone except people with uber wheels.
And stays put. It wont jamb in your chainstay.
Bill Sornson
> The Oracle has spoken.
Or, The Spectacle has broken.
Bill "slow afternoon" S.
Andre Jute
The Orifice has spewed.
However, this time it was worth spending the time to untangle Gene's
fractured English. He has added a new idea to the conversation, that
an amber light warns of the danger of someone turning deliberately
into the path of the motorist...
That by itself makes an amber light worthwhile because it heightens
the state of alertness of the operator of a two- or three-ton blunt
instrument traveling at 30 or more miles per hour, a lot of mass when
it hits you on your bike.
Andre Jute
Tear drop vase, tear drop vase, plum distressed -- Cash Register,
Heaton's, Bandon, Co Cork, Eire, Christmas 2008
Andre Jute
This one looks pretty good, complete with specially shaped lens.
Thanks. -- AJ
Andre Jute
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
> > knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
> > none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
> > who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
> > since went out of business.)
>
> I use an amber xenon strobe with my 12V lighting system.
>
> See
> Look at the reviews--apparently I'm not the only one using it on a bicycle!
>
> Yes, amber is the best choice, but good luck finding one. Remember the
> old Belt Beacon?
Before my time. All I know is what Andrew Muzi told us, that it was
cheap and by inference good and that he distributed it.
The question arises, how did a good product go out of production?
> For an AA powered amber LED light look at
> "http://www.lightsforalloccasions.com/Ultra-Bright-LED-Beacon-battery-..."
I'm not too keen on round section-of-column lamps because of fixing
problems. The lamp attachment space on my rack is occupied by my legal
BUMM red steady light cum reflector, so the amber flasher must go
somewhere else. At present I have the Cateye TL-LD1100 appaering to
perch precarious on the rear crossrail of my rack, where it is in fact
firmly attached with fat zip ties.
There's a pannier basket almost permanently on this bike and it's back
might be a good place for a flat rectangular lamp, or one the bottom
of these round column lamps.
Thanks for the sources.
Andre Jute
The only diet that works is exercise
Andre Jute
> PS: please don't full-quote again, my newsreader don't like that ;-)
Ah, such pearls of wisdom we would lose, and all for a dumb newsreader
tyrannizing us.
datakoll
Several years ago - 15 ? - at South Fla speciffically Fort Myers whose
environs were about to go Condo, we saw a true rash of kids and
cyclists run down, crippled and killed from on/off "the road shoulder"
auto 'accidents.' The kids got walk lanes, free blinkies, adjusted
schedules. There are schools prohibiting bike commuting.
Mexican/Cuban labor continued riding lightless WalBike's to work. What
is the solution ? Free batteries for the retarded or tickets for the
poverty stricken ?
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
try dayglo poster paper- yellow-green-dg orange- magic taped to the
spokes low above the rim. try 3 6-7 inches long 2-3" high. very
spacey. instant positive comment down at the superduper.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
He should reapppear from the AVAGADRO V time wrap for further cawment-
one single light burst from Av V doesn't cut it. But flashing light
bursts step up information reception in the so called human nervous
system. Av V techs are working on the flashing light problem. Av V
Tech believes ( loosely translated ) a flashing sun would catch human
attention whereas ( there's a liability issue here ) a modulated
constant wave production of sophisticated topography just doesn't cut
it.
We contacted Rollo on this, Rollo agrees. Rollo points out that
sooner or later one runs out of room.
AVAGADRO V
AMuzi
>>> THE law enforcement type has a point but it's the greater evil.
>>> If all lights are ..... then what's left are best emergency lights.
>>> amber falls into this latter light groups.
>>> white and or red and blue from Christtmas tree lights seem to be pop
>>> with LET. and are cheerful which is also in the latter grouping ,
>>> left ?
>>> amber flashing fronts are useful on busy dark intersections. Used here
>>> are small rectagular lights once sold thru Nashbar. 6-7 hung on bars,
>>> rack, backpack. In FLA, my passage was often called out with amusment
>>> at the passing show.
>>> Note the busy intersection and what do you see - flashing amber
>>> signals dangerous icebergs port and starboard. White ? White cancells
>>> out as completely negative.
>>> the negative or positive effect is called by med types - consumation -
>>> that is the nervous system has filled with flashing lights to the max
>>> available, brain has noted to X effect, and that's it for the time
>>> being.
>>> try the cranial nerve excercise. to activate cranal nerves, grasp
>>> hands behind back and pull in various directions as isometrics.
>>> the exercise tends to activate the system allowing consumation itself.
> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> The Oracle has spoken.
datakoll wrote:
> He should reapppear from the AVAGADRO V time wrap for further cawment-
> one single light burst from Av V doesn't cut it. But flashing light
> bursts step up information reception in the so called human nervous
> system. Av V techs are working on the flashing light problem. Av V
> Tech believes ( loosely translated ) a flashing sun would catch human
> attention whereas ( there's a liability issue here ) a modulated
> constant wave production of sophisticated topography just doesn't cut
> it.
>
> We contacted Rollo on this, Rollo agrees. Rollo points out that
> sooner or later one runs out of room.
>
> AVAGADRO V
http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/rollo.jpg
datakoll
> > Which amber lights do you use, Peter, and how do you power them?
>
> > Andre Jute
>
> A little Googling turned up this RealLITE GOLD amber light:
>
> http://www.reallite.com/details.htm
>
> Pat Clancy
not bad if quality is there. sizing to auto size should greatly - this
is PITW but HSE - increase IC drivers depth perception over the
postage stamp blinkie. One yellow/gold/amber on the bar alongside a
headlamp, with a rotating mount for facing the correct traffic pattern.
datakoll
>
> - Show quoted text -
you get into the effect in Chicago, right ? after Madison, a galaxy of
lights before your path during an ahead road disaster needs seperating
from the cerebral navigation system for the path to remain coherent
and safe.
SMS
> I'm not too keen on round section-of-column lamps because of fixing
> problems. The lamp attachment space on my rack is occupied by my legal
> BUMM red steady light cum reflector, so the amber flasher must go
> somewhere else. At present I have the Cateye TL-LD1100 appaering to
> perch precarious on the rear crossrail of my rack, where it is in fact
> firmly attached with fat zip ties.
That light is magnet mount, but I'm sure it would not be terribly hard
to device a method of mounting it, though it could be heavy.
I don't like seatpost mounted rear lights because if you have a racktop
bag then it blocks it.
If you want both an amber and a red rear light then you can fabricate a
bracket that attaches to the rear rack reflector bracket and can hold
both lamps. Personally I'd stick with just the amber rear light. No one
in the U.S. cares if your rear flasher is red or yellow. I've used a
yellow one for more than a decade with no issues.
carl...@comcast.net
> Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
> although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
> cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
> cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
> would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
> wheel!
Dear Frank,
O tempora! O mores!
"As an example of the unlighted condition of the streets wheelmen are
forced to use in this city [New York], it was only recently that a man
was run over and killed in the dark on Amsterdam Avenue, a street that
passes within one block of the residence of the Mayor and many
of our wealthiest citizens."
"The [Central] Park police have begun to enforce the lamp and bell
ordinance with great severity, as they should do, and in consequence a
wail has gone up from the wheelman who wants everything for his own
comfort and safety, but is not willing to do anything for tho welfare
of others."
--Sporting Life, June 27th, 1891, p. 10
http://la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1891/VOL_17_NO_13/SL1713010.pdf
Cheers,
Carl Fogel
datakoll
wear it or them on a backpack rig - festoon dude !
datakoll
wrote:
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
the mind boggles ! RR/mining/autocars in Peoria ?/ no antibio...
how lucky we are drowning in CO2
AMuzi
My friend's grandfather, a pedestrian, was killed by a
bicyclist NYTimes 21 September 1924 front page.
Bernhard Agthe
Phil W Lee wrote:
> Is Germany not a party to the European convention allowing the use of
> equipment legal in one EU country to be used in another?
Don't really know, the German light restrictions are complicated enough ;-)
> I know I can use StVZO approved lights here in the UK as a legal
> alternative to BS approved ones, and understood that it was a
> requirement of European legislation that members recognised each
> other's standards in this way.
> And I've never heard of tourists being advised to change lights when
> they cross borders.
AFAIR you have to apply a patch of black tape in a specific location on
your headlights when crossing from right-hand-traffic to
left-hand-traffic, but that's all?
> Dynamos are great if your night use is enough to justify them, but the
> same light units are available on battery lights in most cases (which
> also allows you to have one good light to move between several bikes
> as required, which is much better than having a crappy light on each).
Well, front wheels with hub dynamo are available for about the same
price as regular front wheels, so there is little if any cost
difference. The headlight comes with a cable by default (if built for
hub dynamo) and the cable plus the cheapest (almost) rear light are
quite cheap. Add some clear or black tape to fix the cable to the frame.
So, a working dynamo light costs about as much as a good battery light
and will never leave you stranded with empty batteries ;-)
My cheapo recommendation:
- second cheapest hub dynamo
- cheapest front light with sensor (either halogen or LED)
- BUMM Toplight flat plus (currently cheapest best rear light, has stand
light)
If you have some extra money, go for the front light first, e.g. BUMM
Cyo and then upgrade your hub dynamo (e.g. SON). No need to upgrade the
rear light, as it's really a good one ;-) While a second- or
third-generation LED light is really better, the modern Halogen lights
are extremely cheap and give quite a lot of light, anyway.
> That's the way we need to be moving.
> Unfortunately, it's a tough fight when people have so much invested in
> motor transport (both personally and as a society).
> "I didn't see him" needs to be regarded as an admission of careless
> driving - nobody has any business driving a motor vehicle onto any
> stretch of road that they can't be sure is clear.
Agree.
> I think flashers have a place in well streetlit areas, but preferably
> as a secondary light.
In my own setup with a flashing element in the rear light, I took care
to have the flashing LED overpowered by the non-flashing ones. Partially
because of regulation. But mostly because the flashing one was a backup
for the case that my (then) sidewall dynamo failed halfway home (which
it did occasionally). As a result the rear light was well visible under
normal conditions, but just a little unsteady. It was hard to notice at
all, but I had the impression that drivers kept just a little further
off. But after switching to the current Bumm Toplight flat plus (sorry
for repeating myself), drivers keep even more distance (as I feel it),
because this one is so aggressively bright.
If I'd spend some extra effort, I'd go for non-flashing amber lights on
the side of the bike, e.g. in the ends of the handlebar.
> Good lights cost proper money.
You can get them for considerably less than 100 Euro - and most bikes
sold at good shops come with lights pre-installed, at least here.
> So does training.
Actually, training costs the time to learn about what you're supposed to
do and the discipline to act upon the information. The rest is just to
go riding ;-)
> It's no surprise to find that people who cut costs in one area are
> willing to do so in another.
But then I do wonder why people spend ridiculous amounts of money for
carnival plastic hats and then act like they were suicidal?
> Far better to have good lights than many lights (although a backup is
> good, particularly on battery systems).
That's why I dislike battery lights - when I had them, the batteries
emptied faster than I could drop in new ones (and were always empty when
I needed them) and when I see them on the street, they mostly point
anywhere, but not where they're supposed to... Recently I found that
many bicycle stores started to sell battery lights with the price tag
right over a fine-print stating that these lights do not conform to the
STVZO (local technical vehicle code). These lights are not even remotely
suited for bike use (except for the fact that they bring a handlebar
clamp), but you won't know until after you bought them (if you care to
read the fine-print, anyway... Gnnnnn...
Ciao and safe cycling!
Bernhard Agthe
thirty-six wrote:
> The lights you need to match car headlights are reflectors. Put white
> reflective tape in three sections on your wheel rims and you get the
> flashing lights while the headlights are upon them. You also need a
> big red (legal) or amber rear reflector. I decided to hang the amber
> trailer reflector from my saddle loops because the red official one is
> good enough for closer proximity.
Carry a pair of Ortlieb bags. Their reflectors are extremely good.
But then you should also note that reflectors work only in a very narrow
range (only if the angle is right) and dim rapidly when seen from 45� or
so. For example, a truck-driver may not be able to see the reflector,
because the light from his headlights reflects mainly back into his
headlights and not 1.5m higher to where the driver's eyes are. Or, as
another example (which Andre Jute will like), on a narrow, winding road,
the car's headlights will only light the reflector, when the car is very
close behind the cyclist.
So, yes, while I do think that reflectors should be, I also consider
them a secondary item of lighting. Nothing is better than an active light.
;-)
Bernhard Agthe
Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
> although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
> cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
> cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
> would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
> wheel!
It's similar here, mostly you'll get along fine if you carry any light
at all. Often they won't stop you, but if they do, they might complain
about 'no light', 'technical inadequacy in general' or whatever and then
you might be in trouble. But most police officers don't really know the
exact requirements of the law.
So, what's sensible anyway is an active front and rear light, a rear red
reflector and either yellow ones in the spokes or a reflective stripe on
the wheels. As for the rest, legally you're required to turn your bike
into a christmas tree, but you are unlikely to encounter problems. (*)
(*) This is in no way a legal advice!
Also you should make sure that you have two independent brakes. So if
you're riding fixie, at least mount a front brake (the legal situation
is unclear to me, but this seems good common sense ;-)
> Similarly, I assume that a tourist in Germany (or elsewhere in the EU)
> who had some variation on that system would do just fine, am I
> correct? I plan on taking a bike to Europe this year, so it does
> matter to me.
Try not to exaggerate in any direction. Don't carry much less lights
than typical and don't carry much more lights than typical ;-) You can
always get a reflector or two at good departement stores or DIY stores.
You can even get lights there, but I'd rather carry a good set of lights
from the start. Add reflectors if it seems necessary ;-)
Ciao...
Bernhard Agthe
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Along the same lines, does anyone make "suitable" wheel reflectors of
> any type? This is more of an academic question than one that has actual
> bearing on my life, as they are not required where I live, but if there
> were some available that actually stayed put, didn't rattle, etc. I
> *might* consider trying them out.
Get tires with a reflective stripe on them. Best and most durable
solution...
> I like the idea of reflective-sidewall tires, but I'm not aware of any
> for sale for a price anywhere near the bargain-basement prices for which
> one can purchase Paselas...
Don't know in your place, but I pay about 20Euro for a Continental
Contact tire with reflective sidewall. Recently I had to replace one
after about 10.000km cycling. The cheapo tires I used before (10 Euro)
didn't last for 2.000 km... So the "expensive" option is really cheaper
;-) For me..
Ciao
Simon Lewis
Reflectors on ortlieb for example are MUCH better than natural light at
being seen by a car approaching from the rear IMO. And the great thing
about them is they are on the pannier fabric which is not flat and thus
gives greater angle coverage.
Nate Nagel
Here they're at least $40 - I just searched online and the absolute
cheapest online price for a Continental tire with reflective sidewall,
28 or 32x700c, non-cyclocross, is $35 plus shipping. Double that if not
more if you buy in a bike store. If I wait for a sale, I can get
belted, Kevlar-bead Paselas for $25 or less.
Plus, I am hesitant to try a Continental bike tire, I'm afraid they'll
be as bad as their car tires.
Frank Krygowski
> ... mostly because the flashing one was a backup
> for the case that my (then) sidewall dynamo failed halfway home (which
> it did occasionally).
That surprises me. I've used dynamos (mostly those that mount low
behind the bottom bracket) for decades, and I've had so few failures I
can still remember each:
* I've blown a headlight bulb, but only once or twice. (I usually
change them every year or two.)
* I've snagged a wire when unfolding my folding bike and had a
connection rip out. (I stripped the wire with my pocketknife and
twisted the wires together until I could do a better repair.)
* Most maddening was a brief intermittent disconnect, caused by the
headlamp's spring contact wearing into the soft solder at the center
terminal of the bulb. Had I just changed the bulb, it would have been
a two-minute repair.
* And for experimenting with my commuter bike, I've fitted it with two
switched dynamo headlamps, a dynamo taillamp, and switches to control
each independently. (This is my only bike that requires a circuit
diagram!) I had a wire connection fail at the terminal block.
What failures did you have with your sidewall generator?
- Frank Krygowski
AMuzi
The bottom portion of my black mudguard is painted white
with a simple small red reflector. Although I've been hit,
several times, never from behind. Magic.
YMMV.
AMuzi
>> ... mostly because the flashing one was a backup
>> for the case that my (then) sidewall dynamo failed halfway home (which
>> it did occasionally).
Frank Krygowski wrote:
> That surprises me. I've used dynamos (mostly those that mount low
> behind the bottom bracket) for decades, and I've had so few failures I
> can still remember each:
>
> * I've blown a headlight bulb, but only once or twice. (I usually
> change them every year or two.)
>
> * I've snagged a wire when unfolding my folding bike and had a
> connection rip out. (I stripped the wire with my pocketknife and
> twisted the wires together until I could do a better repair.)
>
> * Most maddening was a brief intermittent disconnect, caused by the
> headlamp's spring contact wearing into the soft solder at the center
> terminal of the bulb. Had I just changed the bulb, it would have been
> a two-minute repair.
>
> * And for experimenting with my commuter bike, I've fitted it with two
> switched dynamo headlamps, a dynamo taillamp, and switches to control
> each independently. (This is my only bike that requires a circuit
> diagram!) I had a wire connection fail at the terminal block.
>
> What failures did you have with your sidewall generator?
Mine used to slip annoyingly in salt slush until I bent the
bracket to "always on". Otherwise unfailingly dependable.
N8N
wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> considered Wed, 17 Feb 2010
> 11:19:11 -0800 (PST) the perfect time to write:
>
> >On Feb 15, 11:40 am, Bernhard Agthe <dark2s...@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> ... The
> >> following is the one (and only) legal setup here:
>
> >> - 1 white front light (non-flashing)
> >> - 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
> >> - 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
> >> - about 15 reflectors:
> >> - 1 white in front,
> >> - 1 red at the rear,
> >> - 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
> >> - 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
> >> - 4 in the pedals.
>
> >> All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.
>
> understand it correctly - I know my Ixon IQ is German approved (K431 &
> K568).
>
>
>
> >Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
> >although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
> >cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
> >cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
> >would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
> >wheel!
>
> >who had some variation on that system would do just fine, am I
> >correct? I plan on taking a bike to Europe this year, so it does
> >matter to me.
>
>
> Just get a German legal setup (which is about the best standard in
> Europe) and you'll be fine anywhere.
> I fully expect the EU to standardise on the StVZO (German) standard,
> when they get around to it.
> If your pedals have no capacity for reflectors, use reflective ankle
> bands to at least be seen as making an effort to comply.
On the pedals on my bike (Wellgo knockoffs of the single sided SPDs) I
removed the "cage" part of the pedal, cleaned well, laid a strip of
reflective tape around the outside of it, trimmed with a razor blade,
and reinstalled. Possibly not as effective as a real pedal reflector,
but it's something, and in the daytime is near indistinguishable from
bare aluminum. Also has the benefit of making more reflective
material visible from the side of the bike, although if I'm wearing my
SPD shoes those incorporate some reflective material as well.
Now if you have double sided SPDs, I guess ankle bands and/or
reflective shoes are the only way to go.
nate
Frank Krygowski
>
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
> > What failures did you have with your sidewall generator?
>
> Mine used to slip annoyingly in salt slush until I bent the
> bracket to "always on".
Good point. My bottom bracket ones have sometimes slipped after I ran
through mud. I stopped and cleaned it off.
I do very little snow or slush riding at night. (Yep, wimpy.) When I
did, I fitted an FER2000 spoke drive dynamo. It's noisy, but it
doesn't slip and it's efficient. It's klunky looking, but easier to
install than a hub unit - just a five-minute job, if the headlamp's
already in place.
- Frank Krygowski
datakoll
feet over a trike on a Blvd. Trike has turned crossing Blvd.
after sunset.
Bernhard Agthe
Simon Lewis wrote:
> Reflectors on ortlieb for example are MUCH better than natural light at
> being seen by a car approaching from the rear IMO. And the great thing
> about them is they are on the pannier fabric which is not flat and thus
> gives greater angle coverage.
Yes, those reflectors are bright. But even they will not be seen in bad
conditions (as stated in my previous email). Actually those reflectors
used to overpower traditional rear bike lights (not anymore).
Cycle safe...
Bernhard Agthe
Phil W Lee wrote:
(cheap hub dynamo wheels)
> That is not the case here (I wish it was).
They should sell the same Shimano hub dynamos as they do here - and
those are really cheap. In comparison to (traditional) sidewall dynamos:
just about 1/3rd more expensive, but so much better to offset the price
difference.
Check with your local dealer or online shop, you should be able to get a
hub dynamo (with or without wheel) for the same price as a comparable
front hub. If not, order online in Europe or whatever ;-) But you should
really be able to get one.
It's a pity I sold my old FER2002 spoke dynamo, otherwise I could have
mailed it to you... These are not as good, but they keep up far better
than any modern sidewall dynamo did at my bikes.
> My criteria for a suitable headlight include tool-less battery change
> ('cos you need to be able to do it in the dark), AA cells ('cos you
> can get them anywhere), compatibility with NiMH ('cos they work out
> cheaper), availability of alternative _good_ mounting brackets, a
> properly shaped beam with a flat cutoff, and a decent light output
> suitable for unlit country lanes at >30kph.
>
> My Ixon IQ fulfils all those requirements, and can be charged or run
> from a hub dynamo :)
That's sure possible, but I found battery lights too heavy (2x D cell),
too battery-hungry (less than 2hr front light) and too dim (not to
mention the unsuitable clamp) to bother with them. The bike I had then
was equipped with an older sidewall dynamo which does a very good job
and had a great halogen light (far better than much of the newer stuff).
> I could do with a battery version of that for the bikes that are less
> well equipped (the tourer has an infini apollo, which is great, but no
> longer available [I wish I'd got a batch, when it was])
Sorry, I'm not the kind of guy to like batteries at all (even if I do
have a very good battery charger and have gotten some really good
rechargable's recently). I consider them inconvenient at best, and a
pain in the * generally. So, I wouldn't want none in a place where I
could go without. A bike certainly is a place I can live without them ;-)
> I suspect that universal fitment of dynamo lights is a major reason
> why dynamos are less expensive there - economies of scale.
As stated above, I simply cannot imagine why they should be much more
expensive at your place, since this is a mass-model produced for the
world market ;-) Even the cheapest clunkers (can't really call these
things bicycle) have them...
> Modern LED based lights seem to be much better in respect of battery
> life (I get 5-20 hours from a set of 4 AAs in my Ixon IQ, depending on
> how much time I spend on high power).
Granted. ;-)
> The need for battery lights to be quickly detachable to prevent theft
> makes it slightly more difficult (although by no means impossible) to
> provide a solid mounting.
Well, why should I need them to be detachable in the first place? simply
mount them solidly and require a "key" to change the batteries - but
then you couldn't steal them nor loose them and they wouldn't sell as
well? Anyway, as I said, too much hazzle for me...
> Same here - nearly all the lights on sale are only legal as
> "supplementary" lights.
> The best that can be said of them is that they are better than
> nothing.
Actually cyclists are usually not stopped by the police if they have
/any/ kind of light here. They get the blame if there's an accident, though.
Ciao..
N8N
wrote:
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> considered Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:52:19
> yours of their car tyres.
> I think reflective sidewalls are becoming more common - I did hear
> that some countries have mandated them, so the manufacturers are
> extending the range of tyres on which it is at least an option, and in
> some cases, standard.
I think it's a good idea, but just having bought new tires last fall,
I'm still not buying any any time soon... can only spend so much
money on bike stuff :)
Maybe by the time these wear out the prices will have come down...
nate
thirty-six
> Hi,
>
> thirty-six wrote:
> > The lights you need to match car headlights are reflectors. Put white
> > reflective tape in three sections on your wheel rims and you get the
> > flashing lights while the headlights are upon them. You also need a
> > big red (legal) or amber rear reflector. I decided to hang the amber
> > trailer reflector from my saddle loops because the red official one is
> > good enough for closer proximity.
>
> Carry a pair of Ortlieb bags. Their reflectors are extremely good.
>
> But then you should also note that reflectors work only in a very narrow
> range (only if the angle is right) and dim rapidly when seen from 45° or
> so. For example, a truck-driver may not be able to see the reflector,
> because the light from his headlights reflects mainly back into his
> headlights and not 1.5m higher to where the driver's eyes are. Or, as
> another example (which Andre Jute will like), on a narrow, winding road,
> the car's headlights will only light the reflector, when the car is very
> close behind the cyclist.
Same with bus drivers. The only real protection here is a white or
light coloured top. Even professional drivers are not always aware of
the speed and movement a cyclist is capable of.
thirty-six
> Bernhard Agthe <dark2s...@gmx.net> considered Mon, 22 Feb 2010
> 11:10:50 +0100 the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >Hi,
>
> >Phil W Lee wrote:
> >> Is Germany not a party to the European convention allowing the use of
> >> equipment legal in one EU country to be used in another?
>
> >Don't really know, the German light restrictions are complicated enough ;-)
>
> >> I know I can use StVZO approved lights here in the UK as a legal
> >> alternative to BS approved ones, and understood that it was a
> >> requirement of European legislation that members recognised each
> >> other's standards in this way.
> > > And I've never heard of tourists being advised to change lights when
> > > they cross borders.
>
> >AFAIR you have to apply a patch of black tape in a specific location on
> >your headlights when crossing from right-hand-traffic to
> >left-hand-traffic, but that's all?
>
> different countries).
> If they have a horizontal cutoff they are not "handed" so don't need
> to be modified.
> I don't know of any bicycle lights that would be affected by that.
>
>
>
> >> Dynamos are great if your night use is enough to justify them, but the
> >> same light units are available on battery lights in most cases (which
> >> also allows you to have one good light to move between several bikes
> >> as required, which is much better than having a crappy light on each).
>
> >Well, front wheels with hub dynamo are available for about the same
> >price as regular front wheels, so there is little if any cost
> >difference.
>
>
> >hub dynamo) and the cable plus the cheapest (almost) rear light are
> >quite cheap. Add some clear or black tape to fix the cable to the frame.
> >So, a working dynamo light costs about as much as a good battery light
> >and will never leave you stranded with empty batteries ;-)
>
> ('cos you need to be able to do it in the dark), AA cells ('cos you
> can get them anywhere), compatibility with NiMH ('cos they work out
> cheaper), availability of alternative _good_ mounting brackets, a
> properly shaped beam with a flat cutoff, and a decent light output
> suitable for unlit country lanes at >30kph.
>
> My Ixon IQ fulfils all those requirements, and can be charged or run
> from a hub dynamo :)
>
>
>
> >- second cheapest hub dynamo
> >- cheapest front light with sensor (either halogen or LED)
> >- BUMM Toplight flat plus (currently cheapest best rear light, has stand
> >light)
>
> well equipped (the tourer has an infini apollo, which is great, but no
> longer available [I wish I'd got a batch, when it was])
>
>
>
>
>
> I suspect that universal fitment of dynamo lights is a major reason
> why dynamos are less expensive there - economies of scale.
>
>
>
>
> >Actually, training costs the time to learn about what you're supposed to
> >do and the discipline to act upon the information. The rest is just to
> >go riding ;-)
>
> >> It's no surprise to find that people who cut costs in one area are
> >> willing to do so in another.
>
> >But then I do wonder why people spend ridiculous amounts of money for
> >carnival plastic hats and then act like they were suicidal?
>
> hat provides some kind of invulnerability.
It's a con, it's only the ones with the platinum thread.
>
>
>
> >> Far better to have good lights than many lights (although a backup is
> >> good, particularly on battery systems).
>
> >That's why I dislike battery lights - when I had them, the batteries
> >emptied faster than I could drop in new ones (and were always empty when
> >I needed them) and when I see them on the street, they mostly point
> >anywhere, but not where they're supposed to...
>
> Modern LED based lights seem to be much better in respect of battery
> life (I get 5-20 hours from a set of 4 AAs in my Ixon IQ, depending on
> how much time I spend on high power).
> The need for battery lights to be quickly detachable to prevent theft
> makes it slightly more difficult (although by no means impossible) to
> provide a solid mounting.
>
> > Recently I found that
> >many bicycle stores started to sell battery lights with the price tag
> >right over a fine-print stating that these lights do not conform to the
> >STVZO (local technical vehicle code). These lights are not even remotely
> >suited for bike use (except for the fact that they bring a handlebar
> >clamp), but you won't know until after you bought them (if you care to
> >read the fine-print, anyway... Gnnnnn...
>
> Same here - nearly all the lights on sale are only legal as
> "supplementary" lights.
> The best that can be said of them is that they are better than
> nothing.
>
>
>
> >Ciao and safe cycling!
>
> And to you :)
TBerk
Before I read the rest of the thread I want to preface my reply with
"I was just going to post a quick one to ask folks to stop flashing
bright white headlights.".
I predicted resistance and claims of troll like behavior, and to tell
the whole truth on the matter I have chosen to flash the rear LED red
lights on my own bike.
I really, really, Really dislike front flashing headlights.
Please, each one, reevaluate this one.
berk
Andre Jute
> Before I read the rest of the thread I want to preface my reply with
> "I was just going to post a quick one to ask folks to stop flashing
> bright white headlights.".
>
> I predicted resistance and claims of troll like behavior,
I don't see why. RBT is widely acclaimed for the mutual goodwill and
Christian tolerance displayed here, the gentlemanly behaviour in
debate, and the high standards of truth in everyday affairs and of the
scientific verity so characteristic of the newsgroup. (Don't blame me.
I was paid to say all that.)
>and to tell
> the whole truth on the matter I have chosen to flash the rear LED red
> lights on my own bike.
>
> I really, really, Really dislike front flashing headlights.
>
> Please, each one, reevaluate this one.
I have, and have decided to keep it. It is aimed downward to so that
the upper limit of the flash in well below the horizon of my Cyo, so
that in general in daylight the flash is a warning and at night it
disappears in Cyo's throw. It is furthermore aimed 12 degrees off the
centreline so that it should never catch any driver full in the eyes
unless he does something stupid, and then I'm already flashing him
with the Cyo by turning and tilting the bike.
What matters is not what lights you have (as long as you have the best
of course) but the consideration that went into their installation.
> berk
****
The other evening, shooting out onto a road between two cars as I came
across the footbridge at speed, I was severely pissed off when I
narrowly missed two unlit bicycles. I'd actually swung my bike light
across an arc of the road while still on the bridge to check there
were no *pedestrians* (we're only twenty miles from the jaywalking
capital of the world and pedestrians own the town and damn right too)
and never saw these two bloody bikes, both painted black, zero
reflectors, with black-clad riders. They might as well carry a sign
that says, PLEASE KILL ME ON THE ROAD. My LBS has a pile of unused,
bracketed reflectors in a tray near the door with a sign that says,
"Please take one. Fitting is free." The trendy kids tell him to take
them off their new bikes...
Rather too many lights than too few!
Andre Jute
"Cycling wisdom" is an oxymoron