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Bicycling! magazine replacement?

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Ryder Bayly

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Feb 2, 2002, 9:42:39 AM2/2/02
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I subscribed again to Bicycling for the last year or two but I've
decided not to renew. It seems to be directed toward mountain bikers
and road cyclists who only recently graduated from Pacific/Huffys.
The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and
talk down to the readers.

I miss monthly in-depth articles about new or interesting products,
touring, riding skills, health issues. I miss two page road tests of
bikes. I miss "Ask the Doctor" and most of all I MISS FRED DELONG!
I used to look forward to a good mag about my favorite hobby in my
mailbox. Is there anything decent that isn't strictly about racing to
be had?

If there's nothing out there, I wish Sheldon Brown would start a
magazine. It would be worth paying for and I'd surely subscribe.

Clydesdale Biker

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Feb 2, 2002, 10:21:40 AM2/2/02
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Yep, my thoughts exactly.


Brian Lafferty

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Feb 2, 2002, 10:32:51 AM2/2/02
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I picked up the latest Bicycling on the newstand yesterday---mid-Winter
boredom. I haven't looked at it in about two years. It's really gone
downhill (pun) fast. The energy drink review was meaningless in its
subjectivity. The how to use energy drinks in a bar mix was the stupidest
thing I've seen in a long tome. Bicycling was, many years ago, like the
UK's Cycling Plus magazine is today.......something for people who read,
think and have attention spans longer than 30 seconds. Can't someone just
kill the damn rag (Bicycling that is)?

Brian Lafferty

--
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state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini

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Tony Dickson

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Feb 2, 2002, 10:54:13 AM2/2/02
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"Ryder Bayly" <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote

> The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and
> talk down to the readers.

Writers? What writers? There are no articles in that magazine any more,
just pictures and captions.


Harris

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Feb 2, 2002, 12:40:09 PM2/2/02
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"Ryder Bayly" <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com...
> I subscribed again to Bicycling for the last year or two but I've
> decided not to renew. It seems to be directed toward mountain bikers
> and road cyclists who only recently graduated from Pacific/Huffys.
> The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and
> talk down to the readers.
>

The thing that amazes me is that with all the magazines being published,
this is the only one aimed (to some extent) at road riding. You would think
there would be a market for a good road bike mag.

I liked the old Bicycling. Bicycle Guide was even better. There were others:
Bike Word, Bicycle Touring, Cyclist, and others. They all folded.

So I guess there isn't a big demand for cycling mags. The magazine industry
is in trouble now anyway due to declining ad revenue. And most mags tend to
skew things towards their advertisers. So while I might miss reading some
articles and looking at the pictures, I think overall the information I get
here on wreck.bicycles is more valuable and trustworthy.

Sure, if there were a bike magazine with credible writers, I'd subscribe.
But what would happen when the articles started panning "boutique wheels"
and purple colored tires? The advertisers would get pissed, and the mag
would go belly up.

Art Harris


Daniel Connelly

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Feb 2, 2002, 12:41:46 PM2/2/02
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It's not designed for long-term cyclists.... thus it's natural that
one would initially find interest, then move on.

Do you continually reread your 3rd grade textbooks?

Still, the website isn't without merit. It has, for example,
a nice collection of product reviews, which must of course
be considered with appropriate skepticism as they represent
a particular perspective, but are still worthwhile.

Dan

Thomas Reynolds

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Feb 2, 2002, 1:09:12 PM2/2/02
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I agree with everything said in this thread. What finally did it for
me was the month where they had the cover story on how to get great
looking legs. Normally I bring the mag into work and share them with
a few cyclists there. That one I just threw away. I didn't want to
be in any was associated with that cover.

Tom

Jim Edgar

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Feb 2, 2002, 1:34:28 PM2/2/02
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Ryder Bayly at bay...@hotmail.com wrote on 2/2/02 6:42 AM:

I'd be willing to bet you just miss intellegent and polysyllabic discussions
about bicycles and cycling. When the change to "Seven Word Reviews"
appearred, we began referring to it as "Happily Content Free."

Here's one way to solve the problem...

1) Go to: http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/

2) Join.

You'll start receiving the "Rivendell Reader", in the last issue of which
was an excellent 8 page interview with Sheldon Brown and good writing about
bicycle design constraints.

Personal recommendation: order up all of the back issues as well.

There won't be "two page road tests", but you'll learn to live without
those... I may be going way out on a limb here, but some of those tests
weren't all that objective.

-- Jim

Stan Lipnowski

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Feb 2, 2002, 2:25:11 PM2/2/02
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So then, what DO the members suggest as good reading? I am a newbie road
biker so I could use some of the groups suggestions.
I have LOTS to learn.
The best thing is to get out there and ride, but when it is -40C, reading
and learning is a good substitute!
TIA
Stan


Brian Lafferty

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Feb 2, 2002, 2:52:30 PM2/2/02
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--
"Daniel Connelly" <djco...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:3C5C24DA...@ieee.org...


>
> It's not designed for long-term cyclists.... thus it's natural that
> one would initially find interest, then move on.

I'm not certain that that is their demographic purpose. They make money
via advertisers when they can keep their subscription numbers up and that
means renewals as well as first timers. In the past couple of years they've
downsized staff and closed editorial offices. The mag seems to be getting
rather thin ad-wise since the late 80s or early 90s.

>
> Do you continually reread your 3rd grade textbooks?

Good analogy, but no. I do reread articles from early Bicycling issues such
as Ian Highbell and John Rakowski touring tales. Just last night I was
leafing through a Cycle Sport from 1994----Motet was really a class rider.
I also just found a novel in a middle-school library last year that I read
when I was in middle-school about the TdF called "The Big Loop." Great fun
to reread it and I'm planing to re-read "The Idiot," twenty years after. :)

Brian Lafferty

Brian Lafferty

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Feb 2, 2002, 2:54:50 PM2/2/02
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Cycling Plus from the UK.

Brian Lafferty

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state and corporate power. -- Benito Mussolini

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"Stan Lipnowski" <sli...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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Phil Brown

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Feb 2, 2002, 3:07:54 PM2/2/02
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<< Cycling Plus from the UK.

Brian Lafferty
>>


Amen! Typically available at Barnes & Noble or Borders.
Phil Brown

Doug Huffman

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Feb 2, 2002, 3:25:06 PM2/2/02
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The owner of Taunton Press, publisher of FINE WOODWORKING, GARDENING,
HOMEBUILDING, has recently taken up bicycling. Pressure him to publish an
equivalent magizine.

He'll need quality copy to publish and that's a BIG committment! And not
cheap.

--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Ryder Bayly" <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Tim McNamara

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Feb 2, 2002, 3:46:53 PM2/2/02
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"Stan Lipnowski" <sli...@mb.sympatico.ca> writes:

1. The Rivendell Reader (http://www.rivendellbicycles.com)
2. Sheldon Brown's Web site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com)
3. Adventure Cyclist (sometimes) (http://www.adv-cycling.org)
4. A to B Magazine (http://www.atob.org.uk/)
5. Cycling Plus (UK magazine, OK but getting slightly more
Bicycling-ish since the departure of Dan Joyce as the editor; you can
find this one at Borders and Barnes and Noble).
6. The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt
7. Tales from the bike shop by Maynard Hershon
8. Bobke: a ride on the wild side of cycling by Bob Roll

-40C? Where in frozen Hades do you live?

Matt O'Toole

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Feb 2, 2002, 3:53:30 PM2/2/02
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"Ryder Bayly" <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com...

> The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and


> talk down to the readers.

Even worse, the writers seem to be fake gen-X potheads at the behest of
editors who are ignorant and arrogant enough to think contrived hipness
resonates with readers.

Matt O.


Harris

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Feb 2, 2002, 4:11:43 PM2/2/02
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"Stan Lipnowski" wrote:

> The best thing is to get out there and ride, but when it is -40C, reading
> and learning is a good substitute!

The "C" is redundant. -40C = -40F


Steve Palincsar

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Feb 2, 2002, 5:38:19 PM2/2/02
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I totally agree with you. I started subcribing to Bicycling back when it
was Leete publication, in 1971, and declined to renew last year for all
the reasons you (and everybody else who has followed up) stated.

I do have a constructive suggestion. Join Rivendell. The Rivendell
Reader has interesting articles. Last issue included articles on French
randonneur bikes; the issue that came out the other day had a long
interview with Sheldon Brown, a 2-page article on Lyotard platform pedals,
and an article on French touring bikes.

Plus, you get a discount on things you buy from Rivendell if you are a
member, and you help to support the creation of beautiful lugged steel
bicycle frames. You can find them on the web at:
http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/


In article <2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com>, "Ryder

Doug Milliken

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Feb 2, 2002, 4:42:58 PM2/2/02
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On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Jim Edgar wrote:

> I'd be willing to bet you just miss intellegent and polysyllabic discussions
> about bicycles and cycling. When the change to "Seven Word Reviews"
> appearred, we began referring to it as "Happily Content Free."
>
> Here's one way to solve the problem...
>
> 1) Go to: http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/

...


And there is usually some good content in Adventure Cycling,
the new name for Bikecentennial. http://www.adv-cycling.org/

Patrick Lamb

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Feb 2, 2002, 6:30:42 PM2/2/02
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Doug Huffman wrote:
>
> The owner of Taunton Press, publisher of FINE WOODWORKING, GARDENING,
> HOMEBUILDING, has recently taken up bicycling. Pressure him to publish an
> equivalent magizine.
>
> He'll need quality copy to publish and that's a BIG committment! And not
> cheap.

IMHO the quality of Fine Woodworking has slipped a bit since its first
five or six years. It's still a good magazine, but it tends now more to
commercial milling shops rather than to the fascinated amateur it used
to be written for. For example, it may have reviews of half a dozen
shapers; good reviews, in that the reviewers tried out all the machines
fairly closely together, and actually compared them. But most of us
don't and won't have a shaper in our garage. Compare the obligatory
once every two or three years article on, say, dovetailing, to the Tage
Frid articles of the early 1980s. Progressively nicer colored drawings
and pictures, but not really as informative as Frid's pithy description
with simple, carefully drawn, black and white drawings.

I wonder if bicycling isn't like woodworking in that there is material
in the subject to fill a magazine for beginners for 2-3 years. After
that, a publisher has covered everything the beginner needs to know, and
faces a choice of either covering material at a higher level, which
scares off beginners, or covering the same material repeatedly, which
drives off old subscribers who have read it all before.

I'll (hesitantly) second the recommendation for Adventure Cycling, for
some readers. It's interesting for those who like to read about tours,
with some human interest thrown in. Not too much about how often to
clean your train, or how tight you should tension your wheels; but
Bicycling stirs up discussions on those topics here in RBR
periodically. And don't look for racing bikes, or the latest and
greatest new innovations in Adventure Cycling.

Pat

Dave Novoselsky

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Feb 2, 2002, 6:58:34 PM2/2/02
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Which is why it is a shame that what appears to be the only surving road
bike magazine -- the British magazine, Cycling Plus -- is so hard to locate
here in the US. Real articles on road biking, not just tripe. Real road
tests, not just a paragraph of pap and babble. Real articles about history,
not just ads. I gave up on trying to find it here in the US and subscribed.
Other mags that have some decent -- albeit only very brief or only from time
to time -- are Cycle Sport (the 1/2002 issue has a test of the Principia RS6
Pro-Ultimate, and very nicely done with more than one photo and one
paragraph that is Bicycling's style) and Cycling Weekly (a two page and a
one page test, although not bad for a weekly with its emphasis on events.)
Other than a hit and miss in Velo News, were stuck with the tripe in
Bicyling. Better than nothing at all, I guess. Dave
"Harris" <n2...@spam.sprynet.com> wrote in message
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Ryder Bayly

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Feb 2, 2002, 8:39:29 PM2/2/02
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I'm already a member of Rivendell and Adventure Cycling.
These two give good coverage in their special areas of interest, but
leave a lot out. I used to look forward to Bicycling! in my mailbox
each month. Their articles were varied and usually interesting. To
me, reading the current Bicycling magazine is as unsatisfying as
looking for love in a whorehouse.

Cycling Plus is more than 50 dollars per year. I think we need
something new here in the States.

Jim Edgar <jmed...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<B881711E.1ABC8%jmed...@earthlink.net>...

Jim Feeley

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Feb 2, 2002, 9:13:06 PM2/2/02
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In article <a3hhqi$2go2$1...@george.awod.com>, Doug Huffman
<dhuf...@awod.com> wrote:

> The owner of Taunton Press, publisher of FINE WOODWORKING, GARDENING,
> HOMEBUILDING, has recently taken up bicycling. Pressure him to publish an
> equivalent magizine.
>
> He'll need quality copy to publish and that's a BIG committment! And not
> cheap.

Actually, quality editorial is a minor expense at most magazines. I've
been a magazine editor for over 10 years and our biggest expenses are
paper, printing, and postage. Oh, and marketing & subscription
building. It costs a fortune to get and keep subscribers. Yes, that's
easier if you have well-written and well-designed articles, but those
come cheap, relatively speaking.

And you need advertising to pay for all that. At most magazines the
money from subscription and single issue sales isn't where it's at.


> I wonder if bicycling isn't like woodworking in that there is material
> in the subject to fill a magazine for beginners for 2-3 years. After
> that, a publisher has covered everything the beginner needs to know, and
> faces a choice of either covering material at a higher level, which
> scares off beginners, or covering the same material repeatedly, which
> drives off old subscribers who have read it all before.

Ya, that is an issue. But mainly for magazines with big newsstand sales
such as Bicycling appears to have--just look at their "buy me now"
covers. Magazines with lots of subscribers who renew their
subscriptions don't need the hard sell covers. Instead they need, IMO,
to address the community concerns of their readers.

But back to advertising-- are there enough advertisers out there who
want to pay an additional magazine to run their ads? I'm not so sure.
And if you're advertising, say $800 to $2300 mountain and road bikes,
wouldn't you want a magazine that reaches beginners who don't have
heavy brand loyalty and who might be ready to "upgrade" their current
bike to something better?

Will the readers of this newsgroup, who might be likely to subscribe to
a Taunton Press bike mag, appeal to enough advertisers to make the
business fly? Or would we all be willing to pay enough money to
subscribe to a magazine that looks good and only has a few ads (or ads
from smaller after-market/specialty companies)? I'll take a wild guess
and say it'd have to be priced at $10-$15 per issue if it didn't have a
lot of ads. It takes a lot of money to start a magazine, especially in
this economic and advertising climate. Will Taunton think it's worth
the risk?

It's a bummer because I'd really like to read a magazine that's a bit
more reflective and well written. The original Bicycle Guide
occasionally got close, but they couldn't make it a successful
business. At least, that's how it appears to me. It's also a bummer
because I'd like to write for and edit such a magazine. But I'd want to
be convinced that I could continue to raise my family (and I say that
as a guy that doesn't work in an industry known for high pay).

But maybe I'm wrong about all this. By all means tell Taunton that
you'd love to see them put out a bike magazine. And add me to the list
of potential subscribers.

Sigh.


Jim

Tom Kunich

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Feb 3, 2002, 12:23:21 AM2/3/02
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"Stan Lipnowski" <sli...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:DXW68.17636$qN3.1...@news1.mts.net...

Stan, we all decry the loss of Bicycle Guide and certainly that racing
magazine with really good coverage of the European scene is missed as well.

I wonder how long before someone starts a real bicycle magazine again.
Anyone want to bet that they couldn't get enough ad revenue to survive until
the word got around and Bicycling! went under?

Tom Kunich

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Feb 3, 2002, 12:25:08 AM2/3/02
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"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:a3hhqi$2go2$1...@george.awod.com...

> The owner of Taunton Press, publisher of FINE WOODWORKING, GARDENING,
> HOMEBUILDING, has recently taken up bicycling. Pressure him to publish an
> equivalent magizine.
>
> He'll need quality copy to publish and that's a BIG committment! And not
> cheap.

So give us a web site.

Tom Kunich

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Feb 3, 2002, 12:34:15 AM2/3/02
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"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:020220021815132097%jfe...@pacbell.net...

>
> It's a bummer because I'd really like to read a magazine that's a bit
> more reflective and well written. The original Bicycle Guide
> occasionally got close, but they couldn't make it a successful
> business. At least, that's how it appears to me. It's also a bummer
> because I'd like to write for and edit such a magazine. But I'd want to
> be convinced that I could continue to raise my family (and I say that
> as a guy that doesn't work in an industry known for high pay).

I think that we're both aware that no magazine can be good without a long
term commitment from a good editor. A good magazine has to be a labor of
love because it will never make the publisher nor the staff rich. And in the
end the reason that most good magazines disappeared was because their
editorial staff wanted to move on to something new and the replacements were
in it for the money and not the love.


Ari

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Feb 3, 2002, 4:11:27 AM2/3/02
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how can that be, when 32 degrees F = 0 degrees C?


"Harris" <n2...@spam.sprynet.com> wrote in message

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Doug Huffman

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Feb 3, 2002, 8:20:28 AM2/3/02
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I wrote to the staff, perhaps last year, at Taunton, on this subject. I
mentioned a number of our regular posters, some of their websites and
thought I heard more enthusiasm from them than from this ng.

I too would like an adult cycling oriented magazine.


--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Patrick Lamb" <pdl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3C5C76A1...@home.com...

Doug Huffman

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Feb 3, 2002, 9:19:23 AM2/3/02
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Sorry. My local newsserver is a POS. I have to go to *.de to get a good
newsservr.

http://www.taunton.com/pages/aboutus.asp

Includes...
If you're a Taunton reader, you have a passion for creative activities that
enrich your life. You search enthusiastically for information that will help
you pursue your interests at a deeper level.

For 25 years, we at The Taunton Press have made it our mission to provide
such information and insight. We recognize that our greatest value is as an
inspiration and a resource. For that reason, the ideas, skills, and
techniques we present are communicated clearly, in an environment that is
both accessible and credible.

Our authors are, first and foremost, leading experts in their crafts. So
when you pick up a Taunton Press book or article, it's as if you're
face-to-face with a mentor who shares your passion and is eager to teach you
something new.

Our purpose is to help you enhance your knowledge and skills, so you can
express your creative ideas at a higher, more satisfying technical level.

We don't run advertising that isn't directly related to the subject matter
of our magazines. We believe our ad pages serve as another vehicle for
passing on educational information. It means our magazines might cost a
little more at the newsstand. But it also means every page will be worth the
price.

The editors and staff of The Taunton Press are fellow enthusiasts, who
understand the value of in-depth, reliable information. Their goal is to
satisfy every person who turns to us for inspiration, so that the books and
magazines of The Taunton Press become a trusted resource - for life.


--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Ryder Bayly

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Feb 3, 2002, 10:44:21 AM2/3/02
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"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<dP378.4319$3E5.3...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...

> Stan, we all decry the loss of Bicycle Guide and certainly that racing
> magazine with really good coverage of the European scene is missed as well.
>
> I wonder how long before someone starts a real bicycle magazine again.
> Anyone want to bet that they couldn't get enough ad revenue to survive until
> the word got around and Bicycling! went under?

Apparently paper, ink, and postage are the big overhead items. If an
equivalent magazine were published monthly on a pay-for-access
website, I would pay to join.
I paid around $15.00 yearly for Bicycling. I would pay $20.00 or more
for access to a GOOD monthly magazine on a website. If I need print,
I own a printer.
I think Sheldon Brown or some other expert/guru website owner could
make a nice living and provide an excellent service for the rest of
us.

AMollitor

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Feb 3, 2002, 11:58:10 AM2/3/02
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Does anyone know what happened to "Bicyclist"? It was a road bike magazine that
was around for a couple of years a few years ago. As I recall, it wasn't great,
but it was an alternative to "Bicycling." I assumed they couldn't survive
without mountain bike ad revenue.

Al Mollitor

Harris

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Feb 3, 2002, 12:06:09 PM2/3/02
to
Because every change of 1 degree C is equivalent to a change of 9/5 degree
F. At -40 they just happen to be the same.

Go look at your thermometer.

Art Harris

"Ari" wrote:
> how can that be, when 32 degrees F = 0 degrees C?
>
>

Harris

unread,
Feb 3, 2002, 12:09:44 PM2/3/02
to

"Ryder Bayly" wrote:

> Apparently paper, ink, and postage are the big overhead items. If an
> equivalent magazine were published monthly on a pay-for-access
> website, I would pay to join.
> I paid around $15.00 yearly for Bicycling. I would pay $20.00 or more
> for access to a GOOD monthly magazine on a website.

I don't know about that. People expect everything on the net to be free.

Art Harris


Matthew Temple

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Feb 3, 2002, 1:11:43 PM2/3/02
to
Ari,

The formula for conversion is 5/9 x (F - 32) = C
where F is degrees Fahrenheit and C = degrees centigrade.

So 5/9 x (32 - 32 ) = 0 (works at 32 degrees F)
At -40 degrees F, 5/9 x (-40 - 32 ) = -40

Matt Temple

--
=============================================================
Matthew Temple Tel: 617/632-2597
Director, Research Computing Fax: 617/632-4012
Dana-Farber Cancer Institute m...@research.dfci.harvard.edu
44 Binney Street, JF 314 http://research.dfci.harvard.edu
Boston, MA 02115 Choice is the Choice!

Message has been deleted

Doug Huffman

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Feb 3, 2002, 1:34:38 PM2/3/02
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Two lines with different slopes (5/9 & 9/5) and different intercepts that
intersect at -40.

--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Matthew Temple" <m...@research.dfci.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3C5D7DC9...@research.dfci.harvard.edu...

A Muzi

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Feb 3, 2002, 2:50:08 PM2/3/02
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>> > "Stan Lipnowski" wrote:
> > > The best thing is to get out there and ride, but when it is -40C,
> reading
> > > and learning is a good substitute!
> >
> > > And then "Harris" <n2...@spam.sprynet.com>, who is either very very
sharp or does his research quickly, wrote in message
> news:jCY68.57673$B94.10...@news02.optonline.net...

The "C" is redundant. -40C = -40F

An unbelieving "Ari" <a...@medicine.creighton.edu> wondered in message
news:39778.247530$kf1.71...@news1.rdc1.ne.home.com...


> how can that be, when 32 degrees F = 0 degrees C?

I have to admit I walked outside and looked at the thermometer. It's
counterintuitive but he's correct.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971


Frank Krygowski

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Feb 3, 2002, 9:40:55 PM2/3/02
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"Harris" <n2...@spam.sprynet.com> wrote in message news:<jCY68.57673$B94.10...@news02.optonline.net>...

The temperatures are equal, but the C is hardly redundant. It lets us
know he's talking about temperatures!

"When it is -40 ..." what? Feet? Minutes? Volts?

Justin Seiferth

unread,
Feb 3, 2002, 10:28:38 PM2/3/02
to
It does appear that Echelon-Velo
(http://ukcycling.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=1035) will become a
commercial "ezine" in the next few months. It's currently a small site
but with a good message board system. I hope it turns into something
good esp for us in America with no coverage in press or broadcast
media.

Justin

Tony Dickson

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 10:26:16 AM2/4/02
to

"Scott" <sc...@bokeh.net> wrote

> "Stan Lipnowski" <sli...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote

> > So then, what DO the members suggest as good reading?
>

> www.bikereader.com

Thanks. Great reading.


Curtis L. Russell

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 11:34:58 AM2/4/02
to
On Sun, 03 Feb 2002 17:09:44 GMT, "Harris" <n2...@spam.sprynet.com>
wrote:

>I don't know about that. People expect everything on the net to be free.
>
>Art Harris

The Wall Street Journal, among many others, has a pay-for-content
daily. Of course, it piggy-backs off the printed version.

I think people would pay IF they saw a clear product of value. I think
the problem is that you would not find enough people to pay for the
same set of products, when offered from a small group of contributors.
And the ad revenue wouldn't be there, nor would many products for
review.

It can work in a smaller community, like the recumbent community. Many
of the people know each other, and the manufacturers are more likely
to release products for review. I can't see anyone getting a large
number of items for review from a Cannondale, or getting them to
release info.

Ultimately, if there is to be a replacement, then I would guess it
would be paper, with some backing from a publisher that is already in
similar product lines - much like Bicycling started long ago. The
costs are not prohibitive for someone that already has a printer and
distributor lined up, and has sources for articles and editorial
content. OTOH, why would anyone bother? Bike World was a good magazine
during a period when printed paper was the only real source, and it
failed - as did many during the 'boom'. The problem IMO is that the
free stuff on the Internet you are talking about siphons off enough
interested people to make a new publication an unlikely endeavor.

I would pay for a glossy in PDF format, done well. Could be put
together by a virtual organization with one person acting as slave
driver and managing editor (Oh, sorry, redundant). You can do as much
with a $ 600 digital camera, the professional version of Acrobat, and
some DSL connections to make it painless. Heck, a full T-1 will cost
less than print distribution. OTOH, you'll really need to figure out
how to keep down secondary distribution. A PDF file on the Internet
only needs that first copy to get to everyone. I don't know, do they
offer encrypted PDF?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD. (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Doug Huffman

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 11:52:41 AM2/4/02
to
I vote for paper. I spend enough time in front (or is it behind) this POS
machine.

I've never fallen asleep at the keyboard while dreaming of a trip or
whateever. I do fall asleep with a magazine or book on my chest.

--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Curtis L. Russell" <sagw...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:goct5u0l3ib800o9u...@4ax.com...

alex wetmore

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 12:01:49 PM2/4/02
to
sc...@bokeh.net (Scott) wrote in
news:c2db08ef.02020...@posting.google.com:
> "Stan Lipnowski" <sli...@mb.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:<DXW68.17636$qN3.1...@news1.mts.net>...
>> So then, what DO the members suggest as good reading?
>
> www.bikereader.com

The cycling magazines that I subscribe to now are:
* VeloVision - This is a great magazine about bicycle culture. It is not
biased towards any one type of bicycle (but has much more coverage of
recumbents than most magazines) but instead focusses on how bicycles are
used. Most issues have great articles about epic rides, tour reports, and
some interesting new technology. Reviews are even handed. You can get
sample articles from http://www.velovision.co.uk

* Rivendell Reader - Similar to the above, but cheaper and printed on cheap
newsprint. Focusses primarily on road bikes (especially Rivendells, but
anything is covered).

* A2B Magazine - British magazine about folding bikes. Fun to read about
British rail politics. Subscribed when I was buying a folding bike, not
sure if I'll continue.

* Adventure Cycling - touring specific magazine by the Adventure Cycling
association.

Every once in a while I pick up a mass market bicycle magazine at a book
store, but I'm always very disappointed. I've heard good things about
Cycling Plus out of the UK (which is a Bicycling-type publication), but I
haven't read it.

alex

Pete

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 12:27:52 PM2/4/02
to

"Curtis L. Russell" <sagw...@bellatlantic.net> wrote

>


> I would pay for a glossy in PDF format, done well. Could be put
> together by a virtual organization with one person acting as slave
> driver and managing editor (Oh, sorry, redundant). You can do as much
> with a $ 600 digital camera, the professional version of Acrobat, and
> some DSL connections to make it painless. Heck, a full T-1 will cost
> less than print distribution. OTOH, you'll really need to figure out
> how to keep down secondary distribution. A PDF file on the Internet
> only needs that first copy to get to everyone. I don't know, do they
> offer encrypted PDF?
>

There are encryption tools for web content (prevents right click or even
screen capture). The name escapes me right now. The user sees the actual
content, but a rightclick/Save As merely shows the underlying watermark.

But, a pay site would have to be substantially better than the combination
of wreck.bikes, Sheldon Brown, MTBR.com, BicyclingLife.com, recumbents.com,
etc, etc.

Add in the general aversion to pay content online (especially for a brand
new source), and I think it would be a hard sell.

Pete


Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 1:53:10 PM2/4/02
to
"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:a3me8v$192pog$1...@ID-77170.news.dfncis.de...

> I vote for paper. I spend enough time in front (or is it behind) this POS
> machine.
>
> I've never fallen asleep at the keyboard while dreaming of a trip or
> whateever. I do fall asleep with a magazine or book on my chest.

No one but tv people think that tv is a media with any redeeming qualities.

You cannot have a magazine unless it is on the newsstands in full color and
shiny paper.

Doug Huffman

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 3:18:48 PM2/4/02
to
> You cannot have a magazine unless it is on the newsstands in full color
and
> shiny paper.

Hence my recommendation of Taunton Press. I'd like us geezers (speaking for
myself ONLY) to be as much in their face as those wannabes with
mouth-mirkins are in ours.

--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:qMA78.8442$Hb6.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

Pete

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 6:58:35 PM2/4/02
to

"Kevan" <cut...@shreve.net> wrote in message
news:ujrt5uk14v8ag872s...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2002 17:27:52 GMT, "Pete" <p...@usaf.com> from Road Runner
High

> Speed Online -- Northeast Ohio wrote:
>
>
> >But, a pay site would have to be substantially better than the
combination
> >of wreck.bikes, Sheldon Brown, MTBR.com, BicyclingLife.com,
recumbents.com,
> >etc, etc.
> >
> >Add in the general aversion to pay content online (especially for a brand
> >new source), and I think it would be a hard sell.
>
> Keep it free!
>
> Start out as a web 'zine with no ads, promote it where you can, and see
what
> happens.

The other side of this argument is, to do it right, you have to devote
*lots* of time (daily or weekly content updates, regular webspace admin,
etc) , and at least a modicum of money (web space, content, etc). Unless you
have deep personal pockets, the site/zine has to be self supporting, or at
least an adjunct to some other bike related business.

Pete


Ryder Bayly

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 7:08:50 PM2/4/02
to

"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:020220021815132097%jfe...@pacbell.net...
I don't think it's just beginners who would appeal to advertisers. Of
course they buy the entry level bike and all of the basic stuff.
We buy the "want" items. Like many here, I spend a few thousand each year
on bicycling related items. I respond to advertising as most people do. I
don't mind it being in the magazines I read as long as there is much more
there than advertising.
Posters here and others like us are the most valuable customers marketers
have because we are repeat customers.


Wesley Dunnington

unread,
Feb 4, 2002, 11:16:09 PM2/4/02
to
Did anyone else like the old "road bike action" magazine, the road counterpart to Mountain Bike action?
It was available in the early to mid 90's but then folded

Wesley Dunnington

Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 1:09:10 AM2/5/02
to
Tom Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> You cannot have a magazine unless it is on the newsstands in full color and
> shiny paper.

Lots and lots of successful magazines don't have a newsstand presence,
aren't in full color, and aren't on shiny paper. Getting on a newsstand
is really expensive. If you're focussed enough, you don't need the
expense. A magazine like what we're talking about here might not need
much of a newsstand effort.

Someone else mentioned:

The Wall Street Journal Online

Yes, they do have a good Website, but as of last summer they'd only had
one profitable month in their whole life. And yet they're held up as
the model of online subscriptions. I haven't seen the most recent
numbers but I doubt their $28M online redesign is going to help them
get profitable soon. Consumer Reports seems to make money online with
their 350,000 subscribers (last time I checked). But then they already
have a great brand name and content.

It's really really hard to break even online, even if you charge for
content. One of these days that may change, but for now I think it's
not the way to go.

Probably a frequency of 6X/year or so with a 6x9 trim size (think
National Geographic or all those academic journals) might be more
doable. Nice B&W photography, maybe some color, articles that aren't
trying to break news. That could maybe work, if someone had enough
money to bankroll it for a couple years before it perhaps became
profitable. Say, $200K+/year for a small website or $1M+/yr for a small
magazine.


Jim

Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 1:34:46 AM2/5/02
to
Ryder Bayly <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I don't think it's just beginners who would appeal to advertisers. Of
> course they buy the entry level bike and all of the basic stuff.
> We buy the "want" items. Like many here, I spend a few thousand each year
> on bicycling related items. I respond to advertising as most people do. I
> don't mind it being in the magazines I read as long as there is much more
> there than advertising.
> Posters here and others like us are the most valuable customers marketers
> have because we are repeat customers.

Yes, but it's the makers of the "beginners" products that have the big
ad budgets. Trek's spending a lot of money on Lance & Co. I don't know
how much more they'd have to spend on yet another magazine. And if
you're like me, I'll be a lot of the money you spend on bike stuff
isn't influenced a lot by ads. Ya, a good add can alert me to a new
product. But so will a ride with my friends, a visit to an LBS, and a
visit to this newsgroup. And a lot of the stuff we (well, I) buy is
from fine companies, but companies with small ad budgets anyway.

Repeat customers often have brand and other loyalties that make us less
appealing to magazine advertisers. The manufacturers need to reach
folks like us, but they us sponsorship, pro deals to LBS employees, and
careful word of mouth to build their brand. Check out this article by
Malcolm Gladwell for more about this:

http://www.gladwell.com/1997/1997_03_17_a_cool.htm

(if you're in a hurry, bring up the page and search on the word
"diffusion" and start reading).

So maybe we're worth reaching with ads. Or maybe we're not.

And looking at the current ads (and number of ads) in Bicycling and
Velonews, I wonder how many of those companies are ready to support
another magazine with a chunk of readership that might overlap with
those two.

I hope a magazine like we're talking about can succeed. But again,
it'll be a tough fight.

You know, Rodale, if they weren't having such hard times, could
probably pull something like this off. Keep Bicycling for the
newsstand/newbie market and bring out another magazine for established
cyclists. One of their biggest titles is Organic Gardening. I haven't
looked in a while, but that was a pretty serious magazine with great
renewal rates. Of course, another of their big titles is Men's
Health...
Anyway, since Rodale already has one cycling mag, they could launch
another much more cheaply than could Tauton. If they wanted to, that
is.

Jim

Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 12:58:31 AM2/5/02
to

"Wesley Dunnington" <wes...@dunnington.org> wrote in message
news:3C5F5C89...@dunnington.org...

Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 1:03:21 AM2/5/02
to

"Wesley Dunnington" <wes...@dunnington.org> wrote in message
news:3C5F5C89...@dunnington.org...

> Did anyone else like the old "road bike action" magazine, the road


counterpart to Mountain Bike action?
> It was available in the early to mid 90's but then folded

I remember mostly a few run of the mill bike tests, and that it was kinda
thin.

IMO, it suffered from the same problem as every other rag- too much "bike,"
and not enough "action."

Matt O.


Doug Huffman

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 6:58:13 AM2/5/02
to
> "A magazine like what we're talking about here might not need much of a
newsstand effort."

It seems that the most mentioned BY NAME publication that is analogous to
what is being discussed is TAUNTON Press and has a fine newstand presence.


--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:040220022211213443%jfe...@pacbell.net...

Russ Baxter

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 9:07:26 AM2/5/02
to
> I subscribed again to Bicycling for the last year or two but I've
> decided not to renew. It seems to be directed toward mountain bikers
> and road cyclists who only recently graduated from Pacific/Huffys.
> The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and
> talk down to the readers.
>
> I miss monthly in-depth articles about new or interesting products,
> touring, riding skills, health issues. I miss two page road tests of
> bikes. I miss "Ask the Doctor" and most of all I MISS FRED DELONG!
> I used to look forward to a good mag about my favorite hobby in my
> mailbox. Is there anything decent that isn't strictly about racing to
> be had?
>
> If there's nothing out there, I wish Sheldon Brown would start a
> magazine. It would be worth paying for and I'd surely subscribe.

Become a member of Rivendell bicycles (www.rivendellbicycles.com) and
you will receive a subscription to the Rivendell reader. You may not
agree with Grant Peterson's point of view, but the Reader is always
thoughtfull and interesting and rarely contains the words "rad" "aero"
or "shred". Last month's issue contained a 5 page interview with non
other than Sheldon "Captain Bike" Brown.

Tom Ace

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 11:46:37 AM2/5/02
to
"Curtis L. Russell" <sagw...@bellatlantic.net> wrote

> I would pay for a glossy in PDF format, done well. Could be put
> together by a virtual organization with one person acting as slave
> driver and managing editor (Oh, sorry, redundant). You can do as much
> with a $ 600 digital camera, the professional version of Acrobat, and
> some DSL connections to make it painless. Heck, a full T-1 will cost
> less than print distribution. OTOH, you'll really need to figure out
> how to keep down secondary distribution. A PDF file on the Internet
> only needs that first copy to get to everyone. I don't know, do they
> offer encrypted PDF?

PDF supports a couple different kinds of encryption.

One method requires no password to view a document, but printing
or editing requires a password if you're reading with Acrobat (but
necessarily not with other tools, some of which are available for
free). This method is a joke; quoting from Adobe's PDF reference:

Note: PDF cannot enforce the document access privileges specified
in the encryption dictionary. It is up to the implementors of PDF
viewer applications to respect the intent of the document creator
by restricting access to an encrypted PDF file according to the
passwords and permissions contained in the file.

The more effective forms of encryption in PDF require a password to
even view the document at all. However, once a user has that password
(as any paying subscriber would), there are no effective restrictions
on printing/editing/copying.

What's more, Acrobat versions before 5.0 use 40 bit key encryption.
That means there are only about one trillion possible keys, making
a brute force search practical. A program running on a modern PC can
try all the keys in about two weeks. (Acrobat 5.0 supports 128 bit keys.)

"Pete" <p...@usaf.com> added:

> There are encryption tools for web content (prevents right click or even
> screen capture). The name escapes me right now. The user sees the actual
> content, but a rightclick/Save As merely shows the underlying watermark.

The restricted web pages that I've encountered had protections just about
as flimsy as PDF's printing/editing restrictions. If you can supply a
reference to the ones you have in mind, I'd like to check them out.

In any case, I am not recommending that anyone violate 17 USC 1201 or
any other copyright laws.


Tom Ace

Pete

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 1:04:47 PM2/5/02
to

"Tom Ace" <cr...@qnet.com> wrote

>
> The restricted web pages that I've encountered had protections just about
> as flimsy as PDF's printing/editing restrictions. If you can supply a
> reference to the ones you have in mind, I'd like to check them out.

This is the one I was thinking about
http://www.servesafe.net/viewit.html and CleverContent from
http://www.alchemedia.com/

I just tried a screen capture of a protected image, using paintshop pro as
well as ALT_PrintScreen, and all I got was their underlying watermark.
Rightclick is disabled as well. Supposedly (although I have not checked) it
also restricts retrieval of the image from your cache/Temp internet files.

The (your) image is hosted on their server.

Pete

Eric A Holeman

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 1:22:36 PM2/5/02
to
In article <040220022236575843%jfe...@pacbell.net>,
Jim Feeley <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote:

>You know, Rodale, if they weren't having such hard times, could
>probably pull something like this off. Keep Bicycling for the
>newsstand/newbie market and bring out another magazine for established
>cyclists. One of their biggest titles is Organic Gardening. I haven't
>looked in a while, but that was a pretty serious magazine with great
>renewal rates.

I think you just found the title: Organic Biking.

Please note that this is not meant to be excluding toward riders of
non-carbon based frame materials.

--
---
Eric Holeman eholem1 at uic,edu
Chicago, Illinois USA

John Forrest Tomlinson

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 4:26:03 PM2/5/02
to
"Pete" <p...@usaf.com> wrote in message news:39V78.23933

> Supposedly (although I have not checked) it
> also restricts retrieval of the image from your cache/Temp internet
files.

That's impossible unless they are forcing you to use their browser.

JT

--
*******************************************
NB: reply-to address is munged

Visit http://www.jt10000.com
*******************************************


Henrik Münster

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 6:11:48 PM2/5/02
to
Does anybody like the British magazine ProCycling? Or is it too much
about racing for this group? I have been subscribeing to it for a little
more than a year.
It has good articles about racing and also great rides (mostly
in Europe). They often write about Danish riders (I'm from Denmark).
But I don't know what to think about the bike tests and reviews
of parts. Sometimes they write very sensible articles, and other times
they just seem to repeat, what they read in the advertisments.
--
Henrik Münster
Esbjerg, Danmark

Gary Young

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 7:46:20 PM2/5/02
to
Did the dwindling of bicycling magazines coincide with the rise of the
internet, and more specifically, this newsgroup? Even if Bicycling
were much better, I'd probably still just glance at it at Barnes &
Noble, because I can get so much information on the web, often
tailored to my specific needs. The British Cycling Plus is a far
better general-interest cycling mag than Bicycling, but I usually read
that at Barnes & Noble too. What I do buy are the British road racing
magazines, ProCycling, Cycle Sport and Cycling Weekly. Why does the UK
have so many good mags? Nearness to the Continent? Lower internet use?

"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message news:<a3hhqi$2go2$1...@george.awod.com>...


> The owner of Taunton Press, publisher of FINE WOODWORKING, GARDENING,
> HOMEBUILDING, has recently taken up bicycling. Pressure him to publish an
> equivalent magizine.
>
> He'll need quality copy to publish and that's a BIG committment! And not
> cheap.
>

> --
> The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.
>
>

> "Ryder Bayly" <bay...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com...

Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 8:06:43 PM2/5/02
to

"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:040220022236575843%jfe...@pacbell.net...

You're assuming the only (and best) potential advertisers are bike
companies. I think that's pretty short sighted, and any bike magazine
operating that way has a severe case of myopia. We buy more than bikes and
accessories, you know... Look at the sponsors of major races and teams-
car companies, banks, beverage companies, computer companies, non-cycling
clothing/shoe/accessories companies, etc. Sure, there's a Trek or a
Campagnolo here or there, but they're not the big money, or the dominant
presence.

Matt O.

Ryder Bayly

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 8:41:37 PM2/5/02
to

"Gary Young" <garyy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfbe6ed3.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Did the dwindling of bicycling magazines coincide with the rise of the
> internet, and more specifically, this newsgroup? Even if Bicycling
> were much better, I'd probably still just glance at it at Barnes &
> Noble, because I can get so much information on the web, often
> tailored to my specific needs. The British Cycling Plus is a far
> better general-interest cycling mag than Bicycling, but I usually read
> that at Barnes & Noble too. What I do buy are the British road racing
> magazines, ProCycling, Cycle Sport and Cycling Weekly. Why does the UK
> have so many good mags? Nearness to the Continent? Lower internet use?
>
I think the diminishment of Bicycling came with the wrong people being in
charge of it. There really isn't any reason they can't do much better. A
telemarketer called me tonight asking me to resubscribe to Bicycling. Of
course I refused, but didn't bother to tell him why. I would write to the
editor, but I believe it would be a waste of time and postage.
Maybe things will change and they will one day have cause to put the ! back
in Bicycling! magazine. If nothing else, that bunch of incompetents will
eventually retire.


Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 9:02:00 PM2/5/02
to

"Gary Young" <garyy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfbe6ed3.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Did the dwindling of bicycling magazines coincide with the rise of the


> internet, and more specifically, this newsgroup? Even if Bicycling
> were much better, I'd probably still just glance at it at Barnes &
> Noble, because I can get so much information on the web, often
> tailored to my specific needs. The British Cycling Plus is a far
> better general-interest cycling mag than Bicycling, but I usually read
> that at Barnes & Noble too.

That tells you something right there- maybe no one's buying magazines
anymore, just reading them at the super-bookstores! We didn't have those
everywhere 10 years ago.

Actually, since these super-bookstores have taken over, there's been an
explosion of all kinds of magazines, including bike magazines. And more
appeared along with the growth of mountain biking.

FWIW, this newsgroup has been around, and very lively, long before I started
reading it (about 10 years ago).

Again, you're giving Bicycling too much credit. You're assuming all people
are competent and earnest, and always do a good job. If they're failing,
it's because of external forces beyond their control. Well, sometimes
people are witless and apathetic, and it shows in their work.

> What I do buy are the British road racing
> magazines, ProCycling, Cycle Sport and Cycling Weekly. Why does the UK
> have so many good mags? Nearness to the Continent? Lower internet use?

They actually read! Perhaps they demand more of their magazines- and they
seem to be more careful with their money. Americans don't worry so much
about flushing $5 bills down the toilet.

Also, if you read a magazine at a newsstand in the UK or Europe, you're
likely to be shown the door. Pay up or get out!

Matt O.


Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 10:33:09 PM2/5/02
to
In article <Dk%78.6604$hi3.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Matt
O'Toole <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:

> You're assuming the only (and best) potential advertisers are bike
> companies. I think that's pretty short sighted, and any bike magazine
> operating that way has a severe case of myopia. We buy more than bikes and
> accessories, you know... Look at the sponsors of major races and teams-
> car companies, banks, beverage companies, computer companies, non-cycling
> clothing/shoe/accessories companies, etc.

You know, I think it'd be great to get those sorts of advertisers into
a bike magazine. But it doesn't happen very often. I'm an editor, not a
ad sales rep, but all the sales reps I know have a heck of a time
getting "out of category" advertisers into a vertical/narrow magazine.

I mean, the demographics would be pretty good, but it really doesn't
happen. And I know a lot of good folks that have tried to make it
happen at a lot of magazines. Some get a bit of success for a little
while, but not in the long run. A magazine like Wired gets some general
ads because the media buyers (stereotyped as young and ignorant social
climber) think it's cool but also because Conde Nast groups their ad
sales: "Buy an ad in the New Yorker and Wired and get a special rate."

That's why Bicycling sometimes has (well, had. I haven't looked at it
in a while) ads for SUVs. Rodale can sell ads across their magazines.

Anyway, it's a great idea but a really really hard sell. Maybe the
right company could make it work, though.


Jim

A Muzi

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 10:46:15 PM2/5/02
to
"Matt O'Toole" <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote in message
news:Dk%78.6604$hi3.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net...

-snip magazine ad discussion-


> You're assuming the only (and best) potential advertisers are bike
> companies. I think that's pretty short sighted, and any bike magazine
> operating that way has a severe case of myopia. We buy more than bikes
and
> accessories, you know... Look at the sponsors of major races and teams-
> car companies, banks, beverage companies, computer companies, non-cycling
> clothing/shoe/accessories companies, etc. Sure, there's a Trek or a
> Campagnolo here or there, but they're not the big money, or the dominant
> presence.


As you may have noticed, the bike shop versions of Bicycling magazine are
jam-packed with car ads.
After a great hue and cry from bike shop owners in the late 80s about
mailorder ads with prices, Rodale began offering off-rate ads to
non-industry companies so bike shop owners would not see the Nashbar ads.
At least until they looked at a copy in the corner grocery.

--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971


Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 10:52:31 PM2/5/02
to
In article <s8088.6673$hi3.5...@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Matt
O'Toole <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:

> Again, you're giving Bicycling too much credit. You're assuming all people
> are competent and earnest, and always do a good job. If they're failing,
> it's because of external forces beyond their control. Well, sometimes
> people are witless and apathetic, and it shows in their work.

When I last read Bicycling regularly, it was actually OK. Remember the
crew writing out of Santa Cruz, CA in the mid-1990s? They were trying,
and I think mostly succeeding, in building a magazine aimed at serious
"already know how to ride" cyclists. I subscribed and felt I got my
money's worth. I actually started thinking it might be a good place to
work.

Well those were all laid off or fired without warning several years
ago. Some went to asimba.com, a sports website that is no more (or so
it appears). Some, I don't know where they went.

I guess the execs at Rodale weren't happy with their performance. Or
maybe they just thought Bicycling needed to be sexier like Men's
Health. I don't know exactly what happened, but Bicycling changed. And
publishing companies don't change things unless they think the change
will make them more money.

> Also, if you read a magazine at a newsstand in the UK or Europe, you're
> likely to be shown the door. Pay up or get out!

In the UK, newsstand sales are way more important than they are here in
the US. Many loyal readers just don't subscribe. So there's an active
newsstand culture, and yes they want you to buy, not browse.

Well we're pretty seriously off topic. While we may disagree about how
to go about making and distributing a magazine/website/whatever that
we'd all want to read, I hope that someday I'll be able to read such a
magazine.


So, what ever happened to those cast magnesium frames from a few years
back?

Jim

Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 5, 2002, 10:55:39 PM2/5/02
to
In article <3c60a908$0$35577$272e...@news.execpc.com>, A Muzi
<a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> As you may have noticed, the bike shop versions of Bicycling magazine are
> jam-packed with car ads.
> After a great hue and cry from bike shop owners in the late 80s about
> mailorder ads with prices, Rodale began offering off-rate ads to
> non-industry companies so bike shop owners would not see the Nashbar ads.
> At least until they looked at a copy in the corner grocery.

Ya, I remember the change. I was working at a shop at the time. They
made lots of noise about dropping mailorder ads.

But as I think I just posted in one of these threads, Rodale's able to
get the non-industry ads because they sell space in several of their
magazines all at once. A publisher that can't offer such deals will
have a hard time attracting non-industry companies on any regular
basis.

Jim

Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 3:10:15 AM2/6/02
to

"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:050220021935211677%jfe...@pacbell.net...

> You know, I think it'd be great to get those sorts of advertisers into
> a bike magazine. But it doesn't happen very often. I'm an editor, not a
> ad sales rep, but all the sales reps I know have a heck of a time
> getting "out of category" advertisers into a vertical/narrow magazine.
>
> I mean, the demographics would be pretty good, but it really doesn't
> happen. And I know a lot of good folks that have tried to make it
> happen at a lot of magazines. Some get a bit of success for a little
> while, but not in the long run. A magazine like Wired gets some general
> ads because the media buyers (stereotyped as young and ignorant social
> climber) think it's cool but also because Conde Nast groups their ad
> sales: "Buy an ad in the New Yorker and Wired and get a special rate."
>
> That's why Bicycling sometimes has (well, had. I haven't looked at it
> in a while) ads for SUVs. Rodale can sell ads across their magazines.

This is true.

They also share other staff- like art directors. I don't know about Rodale
specifically, but it's common for an art director to be laying out three or
four different, totally unrelated magazines.

> Anyway, it's a great idea but a really really hard sell. Maybe the
> right company could make it work, though.

I know some folks who do exactly that- put together advertising packages
that include ads in several different, independent magazines, that are
unrelated in subject matter, but similar in demographics.

Still, let's not blame crappy magazines on flagging ad revenue. Editorial
staff either does a good job, or they don't.

Matt O.

A Muzi

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 8:48:38 AM2/6/02
to
"Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:050220021954431575%jfe...@pacbell.net...

> So, what ever happened to those cast magnesium frames from a few years
> back?

Kirk Precison Frames? The marketplace seems to have voted with its feet.

David Damerell

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 10:12:40 AM2/6/02
to
Matt O'Toole <ma...@deltanet.com> wrote:
>"Gary Young" <garyy...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>What I do buy are the British road racing
>>magazines, ProCycling, Cycle Sport and Cycling Weekly. Why does the UK
>>have so many good mags? Nearness to the Continent? Lower internet use?
>They actually read! Perhaps they demand more of their magazines- and they
>seem to be more careful with their money. Americans don't worry so much
>about flushing $5 bills down the toilet.

I would guess that we also have higher levels of cycling, since our
culture is not quite so far down the route of assuming every adult will
own a motor car.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?

David Damerell

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 10:09:39 AM2/6/02
to
John Forrest Tomlinson <20...@jt10000removethesewords.com> wrote:
>"Pete" <p...@usaf.com> wrote in message news:39V78.23933
>>Supposedly (although I have not checked) it
>>also restricts retrieval of the image from your cache/Temp internet files.
>That's impossible unless they are forcing you to use their browser.

Effectively they do by requiring a crippled Windows-only plugin.

I imagine I could still install the plugin on a Windows box, view the
desktop with VNC on a real computer, and do a screen capture from
there, but I don't know how deeply their browser plugin penetrates the OS
(beyond 'unacceptably so'.)

Buck

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 10:28:04 AM2/6/02
to
"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Rin*mh...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

It's irrelevant anyway. As soon as some form of protection becomes popular,
someone will hack it.

-Buck


Pete

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 12:37:23 PM2/6/02
to

"Buck" <bu...@galaxycorp.gibberish.com> wrote

>
> It's irrelevant anyway. As soon as some form of protection becomes
popular,
> someone will hack it.
>
> -Buck

Quite. It might, however, reduce casual copying/sharing of online content.

Pete


Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 1:31:25 PM2/6/02
to
"A Muzi" <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote in message
news:3c613637$0$35566$272e...@news.execpc.com...

> "Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:050220021954431575%jfe...@pacbell.net...
>
> > So, what ever happened to those cast magnesium frames from a few years
> > back?
>
> Kirk Precison Frames? The marketplace seems to have voted with its feet.

I would say that they voted with their eyes -- man were those things ugly.
No one EVER said that the English had artistic industrial design.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 1:32:30 PM2/6/02
to
"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:KMn*6h...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

Either that or the fact that you can ride a bicycle clear across the country
in a day.

Doug Huffman

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 2:02:25 PM2/6/02
to
What of fair use? http://www.freerepublic.com/summaryjudgment.htm [Excerpt]

"The fair use doctrine, codified at 17 U.S.C. § 107, permits the
reproduction of
copyrighted works for certain purposes. Section 107 sets forth four
nonexclusive factors to be considered in determining whether a defendant's
copying is a fair use. "(1) the purpose and character of the use, including
whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational
purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and
substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a
whole;
and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the
copyrighted work," 17 U.S.C. § 107. Based on the evidence submitted by the
parties, the court concludes that the first, third and fourth factors
militate against
a finding of fair use in this case. The second factor weighs in
defendants'
favor. The balance, however, tips towards plaintiffs, and the court thus
finds
that defendants are not entitled to assert a fair use defense to the claims
of
copyright infringement alleged in the complaint."


--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.

"Pete" <p...@usaf.com> wrote in message

news:nRd88.25078$Hu6.5...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...

ed

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 4:35:39 PM2/6/02
to
bay...@hotmail.com (Ryder Bayly) wrote in message news:<2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com>...

> I subscribed again to Bicycling for the last year or two but I've
> decided not to renew. It seems to be directed toward mountain bikers
> and road cyclists who only recently graduated from Pacific/Huffys.
> The writers seem to be gen-X potheads who think they know it all and
> talk down to the readers.
>
> I miss monthly in-depth articles about new or interesting products,
> touring, riding skills, health issues. I miss two page road tests of
> bikes. I miss "Ask the Doctor" and most of all I MISS FRED DELONG!
> I used to look forward to a good mag about my favorite hobby in my
> mailbox. Is there anything decent that isn't strictly about racing to
> be had?
>
> If there's nothing out there, I wish Sheldon Brown would start a
> magazine. It would be worth paying for and I'd surely subscribe.

I stopped this year. I tour on my time off and the amount of space
the editors allow for touring is minimal.. I also ride a hybrid, to
help from the editors there. I get tired of readingabout great legs,
training for races and MTB. The repair section is good but "style
man" has got to go. Every time they want me to renew all we ever get
is the cheap training logs Rodale makes for nothing.
You never see the letters from the people who ride for the pure
enjoyment of it.
It seems if your not in a racing club or a MTB you dont count Who
cares really how many times someone won the Tour de France? No me.

Eric A Holeman

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 5:32:32 PM2/6/02
to
In article <62e453ed.02020...@posting.google.com>,
ed <edmun...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>You never see the letters from the people who ride for the pure
>enjoyment of it.

Ahem...whaddaya think this is? This is a workout, dagnabbit, and you're
supposed to be taking this workout thing seriously. That means grunt,
sweat, tears, toil, work work work, and don't you let up until your legs
are lookin' shaveworthy.

I repeat: biking is NOT about transportation--if you want to get
somewhere with your bike, then put the bike on the back of yer car.
And it's certainly not about fun--if you're having fun, then you're
obviously not doing it right. It's exercise, period, and that's the
*only* scenario in which an adult should be seen on a bicycle (with both
hands on the bars, natch.)

Accordingly, if you're going to bike, don't be nibbling at the edges. You
need the full package: workout clothes. More workout clothes. Heart
rate monitors. Lighter wheels--they make you go faster, like the catalog
says. The right shoes, the right pedals, one of those water backpacks,
and the right gearing so that you can get MAXIMUM performance out of your
engine.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that's what you'll need if you're
going to be a cyclist in this here 21st century. If you can't hack it,
maybe you can get a deal on one of those zippy litte scooter things.

Eric, hands firmly on bars, tongue firmly in cheek.

Pete

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 6:16:12 PM2/6/02
to

"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:a3rul3$1ao0je$1...@ID-77170.news.dfncis.de...

So basically, it says freerepublic.com (defendant) cannot copy and post
online verbatim, exact copies of Washington Post and NY Times (plaintiffs)
articles.

Pete


Benjamin Weiner

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 6:38:03 PM2/6/02
to

Procycling's bike "tests" are silly. Usually they have
Robert Millar ranting about completely subjective and minor
differences as if they were detectable, and spewing bushwah
like "stiff yet compliant." I have a copy of Procycling at
home with a Millar review of an Independent Fabrications
steel bike that starts with him getting bent out of shape
because the frame has a pump peg and therefore makes him feel
like a doddering old tourist. It gets worse from there,
as he rants on and on about how the bike feels slow and
conservative because it has a 72.5 instead of 73 degree
seat angle, or maybe it was head angle. Plus it's steel
and feels so outdated ...

OTOH, the rest of the magazine is very good, although mostly
of interest to people who follow racing. I agree the articles
where the writer describes a tour or set of long rides, with
spectacular photos to match, are quite nice.

Tim McNamara

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 7:26:25 PM2/6/02
to
edmun...@hotmail.com (ed) writes:

> bay...@hotmail.com (Ryder Bayly) wrote in message news:<2f6f8cfe.02020...@posting.google.com>...

> > I miss monthly in-depth articles about new or interesting products,


> > touring, riding skills, health issues. I miss two page road tests of
> > bikes. I miss "Ask the Doctor" and most of all I MISS FRED DELONG!
> > I used to look forward to a good mag about my favorite hobby in my
> > mailbox. Is there anything decent that isn't strictly about racing to
> > be had?

Fred DeLong, Dr. Eugene Gaston (IIRC), Frank Berto, Owen
Mulholland... there was a lot of good stuff in the 1970's Bicycling!
magazine. It went downhill immediately after Rodale bought it, but
then improved for a number of years. The decline may be terminal now.

I remember reading a charming series of articles in the 70's by Ed
somebody, a septagenerian who did an unsupported cross-the-US tour
when he was 70 years old (if memory serves). I used to have a box of
those in my parents' attic, but last time I looked for 'em I couldn't
find the box.

I haven't subscribed in at least 10 years and haven't even read an
issue in two or three years. I do read the Rivendell Reader, I liked
On The Wheel (RIP) very much, Cycling Plus is OK but slightly.... I
dunno. But I read it- at least they recognize that there's more to
riding bikes than workouts and getting "great legs." procycling is
the best of the bike racing mags bar none.

Doug Huffman

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 7:30:07 PM2/6/02
to
Yeah, if you're incapable of induction. Someone was going on as though any
'copying' is a crime (like skateboarding?) when that just isn't so. Most of
us use 'fair use' in everyday discussion.

--
The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.


"Pete" <p...@usaf.com> wrote in message

news:0Pi88.25351$Hu6.5...@typhoon.neo.rr.com...

Tim McNamara

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 7:28:56 PM2/6/02
to
Benjamin Weiner <b...@isis.ucolick.org> writes:

> Procycling's bike "tests" are silly. Usually they have
> Robert Millar ranting about completely subjective and minor
> differences as if they were detectable, and spewing bushwah
> like "stiff yet compliant." I have a copy of Procycling at
> home with a Millar review of an Independent Fabrications
> steel bike that starts with him getting bent out of shape
> because the frame has a pump peg and therefore makes him feel
> like a doddering old tourist. It gets worse from there,
> as he rants on and on about how the bike feels slow and
> conservative because it has a 72.5 instead of 73 degree
> seat angle, or maybe it was head angle. Plus it's steel
> and feels so outdated ...

Oh, I *love* the Robert Miller reviews. It's the first thing I read.
Total bushwah, as you say, but delightfully acerbic. And at least he
is not afraid to offend.

Ryder Bayly

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 8:02:31 PM2/6/02
to
Well said!

"ed" <edmun...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:62e453ed.02020...@posting.google.com...

Gocycle

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 7:53:51 PM2/6/02
to
I sure miss BICYLCE GUIDE. Sure it wasn't the best but it was road
specific.

Luigi Bruno

}}}}}GoCycle}}}}}

Max Watt

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:05:29 PM2/6/02
to
Best replacement for Bicycling MAgazine?
Maybe toilet paper.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:15:35 PM2/6/02
to
"Gocycle" <Goc...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17020-3C...@storefull-613.iap.bryant.webtv.net...

> I sure miss BICYLCE GUIDE. Sure it wasn't the best but it was road
> specific.

I'll double you on that one. Bicycle Guide was the magazine for road bike
riders. It would have been even better if they included more touring and
recumbent and speed record stuff and all of that.

MTB is sort of a funny thing to put in a magazine. I'm not going to pierce
my tongue or get tattoos on my penis or wear clothing that makes me resemble
a 9 year old wearing his father's work clothes. I'm not going to travel to
someplace where you take a helicopter to the top of a mountain and then fall
off it and call that fun. I'm not going to put a dead fish around my neck
and pretend that I'm really really really cool. I'm not going to ride an MTB
down a hill and get a lift back to the top and think of that as bicycling.
I'm not going to buy $15,000 worth of full suspension custom beryllium
framed bike and pretend that it is going to make me faster than my legs are.
And I'm not going to read something by some horses ass named "Zap" and
pretend that he has the slightest clue as to what is going on in the MTB
world.

I just ride the things. I would like to know what is available and how I
might upgrade my bike. I don't want a full suspension bike which requires
more maintenance than my 37 foot sailboat. I would like to get a 25 lb or
less hard tail or even a non-suspended bike. But MTB magazines aren't about
any of that. They're all about being noticed. About talking trash enough to
make Henry Chan sound modest. And about making others feel insignificant.

I go on trips around the country to places that used to be shown in the
magazines but aren't anymore because only "EXTREME SPORTS" sites are written
up. I ride pretty good but of course I'd never pass the Mark Weaver test
which is only considering someone who does the Slick Rock trail in 35
minutes a "real" off road rider.

When Bicycle Guide changed its name and then went out of business instead of
refunding my 5 year subscription they gave me a subscription to the most
brain dead publication it's ever been my misfortune to observe (there wasn't
any writing on at least half of the pages). I wrote them several times and
asked them to cancel the subscription and return my funds but there was no
chance of that. It was a REAL(tm) MTB publication -- nothing but pictures
whose sole purpose was to show just how cool those being photographed really
were. Or to advertise commercial riding sites where riders were locked into
trails and routes that were designed for them.

And they wonder why mountain biking is falling apart, why NORBA racing is
falling out of favor and why people are starting back to road biking where
they can do whatever they feel like.

Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:37:26 PM2/6/02
to
"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:a3rul3$1ao0je$1...@ID-77170.news.dfncis.de...

I take issue with the final verdict in that case. The court failed to
consider that the actual reason for copying an entire article was to show
direct evidence that nothing was being left out of the discussion of the
article.

Without the full and complete article there to be observed by all, free and
open discussion of it would be totally hampered by claims from one side of
the other that the article was being misquoted or that significant portions
of it were being misinterpreted.

The facts in the case are that the newspapers involved were attempting to
place burdensome barriers in front of Free Republic in order to try to limit
the growing popularity of that site.

Consider, I may buy their paper for $0.25 or whatever and read it cover to
cover. I can read it out loud to you or allow you to read my copy. I can
tell anyone and everyone about that article. And in all of this the
newspapers make not one further red cent.

Another case where a whacko court voids justice.


Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:40:36 PM2/6/02
to
"Benjamin Weiner" <b...@isis.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:3c61be5b$1...@news.ucsc.edu...

> Henrik Münster <muen...@esenet.dk> wrote:
> > Does anybody like the British magazine ProCycling? Or is it too much
> > about racing for this group? I have been subscribeing to it for a little
> > more than a year.
> > It has good articles about racing and also great rides (mostly
> > in Europe). They often write about Danish riders (I'm from Denmark).
> > But I don't know what to think about the bike tests and reviews
> > of parts. Sometimes they write very sensible articles, and other times
> > they just seem to repeat, what they read in the advertisments.
>
> Procycling's bike "tests" are silly. Usually they have
> Robert Millar ranting about completely subjective and minor
> differences as if they were detectable, and spewing bushwah
> like "stiff yet compliant."

I wonder if this was the Brit magazine I read that interviewed pro racers
and asked such interesting questions such as "What is your favorite color?"
and "What music do you like?"

Tom Kunich

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 9:51:37 PM2/6/02
to
"Max Watt" <maxwa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:870a5d01.02020...@posting.google.com...

> Best replacement for Bicycling MAgazine?
> Maybe toilet paper.

Nope. It leaves colored ink all over your backside and the click pages don't
absorb worth beans.

Matt O'Toole

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 11:08:36 PM2/6/02
to

"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:brl88.15427$Hb6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

> MTB is sort of a funny thing to put in a magazine. I'm not going to pierce
> my tongue or get tattoos on my penis or wear clothing that makes me
resemble
> a 9 year old wearing his father's work clothes. I'm not going to travel to
> someplace where you take a helicopter to the top of a mountain and then
fall
> off it and call that fun. I'm not going to put a dead fish around my neck
> and pretend that I'm really really really cool. I'm not going to ride an
MTB
> down a hill and get a lift back to the top and think of that as bicycling.
> I'm not going to buy $15,000 worth of full suspension custom beryllium
> framed bike and pretend that it is going to make me faster than my legs
are.
> And I'm not going to read something by some horses ass named "Zap" and
> pretend that he has the slightest clue as to what is going on in the MTB
> world.

Tom,

I rode the trails in Orange County for 10 years. I rarely saw anyone that
even came close to that stupid stereotype. Most riders had upper-midrange
hardtails, and later on, equally run of the mill full suspension bikes. I
rarely saw a "downhiller." Most people rode in a normal "XC" style, with
excellent trail manners too. Almost everyone wore plain old conservative
lycra shorts, jerseys, and helmets, just like roadies. Weird facial hair,
piercings, tatoos, and the rest of it were probably less common than in the
general population. Of the organized groups I sometimes rode with, most
people I talked to had pretty normal jobs, with perhaps a bias toward
hi-tech/engineering (OC is like Silicon Valley) and law enforcement
(fitness-oriented). Overall,most riders look so clean they squeak.

Most downhillers seemed to stick to the ski areas, where they belong.

Here in Blacksburg, VA, things are pretty much the same. VA Tech is not
exactly dude-ville, but still...

So I don't know where the stereotype comes from- certainly not the riding
enthusiast population. It must be a creation of magazine editors- which
only shows how out of touch they are, and why bike magazines suck- and why
magazines and bike companies are going bankrupt.

Matt O.

Jim Feeley

unread,
Feb 6, 2002, 11:42:14 PM2/6/02
to
In article <3c613637$0$35566$272e...@news.execpc.com>, A Muzi
<a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

> "Jim Feeley" <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:050220021954431575%jfe...@pacbell.net...
>
> > So, what ever happened to those cast magnesium frames from a few years
> > back?
>
> Kirk Precison Frames? The marketplace seems to have voted with its feet.
> --

Ya, those are the ones. I was just trying to get us somewhat back on
topic. I saw a bike messenger ride by on one Monday.

Anyone here ever ride one?

Jim

Pete

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 3:51:03 AM2/7/02
to

"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote

>
> Consider, I may buy their paper for $0.25 or whatever and read it cover to
> cover. I can read it out loud to you or allow you to read my copy. I can
> tell anyone and everyone about that article. And in all of this the
> newspapers make not one further red cent.
>
> Another case where a whacko court voids justice.

But can you buy a copy, and then make a few thousand copies, and solicit
(but not require) donations to read those?

Pete


David Damerell

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 10:41:29 AM2/7/02
to
Tom Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>I would say that they voted with their eyes -- man were those things ugly.
>No one EVER said that the English had artistic industrial design.

I would guess that you have never seen the steam-powered beam engines at
Kew in operation. :-)

David Green

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Feb 7, 2002, 10:52:11 AM2/7/02
to
Jim Feeley <jfe...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<060220022044283221%jfe...@pacbell.net>...

> Ya, those are the ones. I was just trying to get us somewhat back on
> topic. I saw a bike messenger ride by on one Monday.
>
> Anyone here ever ride one?

Yes. I've got the white 'Kirk Precision' road version. Nice rigid
frame, but heavier than a steel frame.

David Green
Cambridge, UK

David Damerell

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Feb 7, 2002, 10:46:32 AM2/7/02
to
Tom Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>>I would guess that we also have higher levels of cycling, since our
>>culture is not quite so far down the route of assuming every adult will
>>own a motor car.
>Either that or the fact that you can ride a bicycle clear across the country
>in a day.

You'd need a rather carefully chosen definition of 'across' (West-East
just above Wales, perhaps?) or great big legs, but I don't see the
connection. An average American can't very well ride from New York to
Chicago, but an average British person could no more ride from London to
Edinburgh.

ajames

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Feb 7, 2002, 12:06:28 PM2/7/02
to
On Thu, 07 Feb 2002 04:42:14 GMT, Jim Feeley <jfe...@pacbell.net>
wrote:


Yeah, actually a couple...
I had a customer bring one back from the UK and we built it up for
him. Miele (canada) the bike company not the appliance firm) tried to
sell them in their last year of business, and another firm whose name
i forget tried to sell them a year or two before...

I found it to be a nice stiff ride though nothing really special.


A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

Jay W. Beattie

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Feb 7, 2002, 12:36:53 PM2/7/02
to

"Doug Huffman" <dhuf...@awod.com> wrote in message
news:a3rul3$1ao0je$1...@ID-77170.news.dfncis.de...

The ellipsed portion of the statute is really the important part:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use
of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching
(including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or
research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether
the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the
factors to be considered shall include--

The first factor listed in § 107 is (quoting the Free Press case) "the


purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a

commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes." "This
factor assesses whether "the new work 'merely supersedes the objects'
of the original creation, or instead adds something new, with a
further purpose or different character, altering the first with new
expression, meaning, or message; it asks, in other words, whether and
to what extent the new work is 'transformative.'" Campbell v.
Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569, 579, 127 L. Ed. 2d 500, 114 S.
Ct. 1164 (1995) (quoting Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F. Cas. 342, 348 (D.Mass.
1841)). " The more transformative the new work, the less will be the
significance of other factors, like commercialism, that may weigh
against a finding of fair use." Campbell, supra, 510 U.S. at 579.

So, just reprinting an article and saying, "hey, I told you this is
what it said" is not sufficiently "transformative." The opinion is
pretty opaque for the uninitiated, but it is still comprehensible.
http://www.law.uh.edu/faculty/cjoyce/copyright/release10/LosAngT.html
. The moral of the story is that you should not post entire chapters
of the "Bicycle Wheel" along with a tag-line saying, "you see, stress
relieving is important." -- Jay Beattie.


bfd

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Feb 7, 2002, 1:27:01 PM2/7/02
to
david2...@ps.ge.com (David Green) wrote in message news:<2e60080f.02020...@posting.google.com>...
I remember those frames from the late 80s/early 90s - look like a
bridge, heavy and most if not all broke. The "magnesium" made the
frame very brittle and almost all of the ones I saw or heard about
broke. Be Careful!

A Muzi

unread,
Feb 7, 2002, 4:01:59 PM2/7/02
to
> Tom Kunich <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >I would say that they voted with their eyes -- man were those things
ugly.
> >No one EVER said that the English had artistic industrial design.

"David Damerell" <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:XTp*kG...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...

> I would guess that you have never seen the steam-powered beam engines at
> Kew in operation. :-)

Or the beautiful ones in lake boats in Scotland.
--
Andrew Muzi
http://www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April 1971


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