Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspiracy?
Steve Green
do during my rides ) about a discussion about cycling I had with
my father last night.
I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
just think I'm insane.
Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
of rebellious feels? Who knows?
Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
support from people close to them?
Steve Green
bui tho xuan
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
Yup. That's about right.
>Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
>of rebellious feels? Who knows?
I commute/bike because I have to. My bicycles make me :-)
But then again, I don't need anyone to support my biking either.
I don't need anyone to support me when I drive...why should biking
be any different?
tho
Steve Manifold
You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
drive to a health club to get some exercise.
steve
--
____________________________________ _ ___________________________________
Steve Manifold _| ~-. University of Texas
eza...@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu \, *_} Center for Electromechanics
____________________________________ \/ ___________________________________
Frank Hamlin
: You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
: can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
: safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
: think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
: could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
: ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
: drive to a health club to get some exercise.
: steve
About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
to say:
"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
comfortable, even when wet."
I think a light just went on!
--
Frank Hamlin, Santa Rosa Systems, Hewlett Packard __@ __@
1400 Fountaingrove Pkwy, Santa Rosa, Calif _-\<,-\<,
fra...@sr.hp.com (*)/---/(*)
Eric Wassermann
wrote:
>
> Steve Manifold (eza...@chpc.utexas.edu) wrote:
>
> : You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
> : can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
> : safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
> : think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
> : could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
> : ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
> : drive to a health club to get some exercise.
>
> : steve
>
> About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
> rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
> bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
> health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
> the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
> I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
> to say:
>
> "I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
> dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
> any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
> comfortable, even when wet."
>
> I think a light just went on!
Hey, if it always felt good and was completely safe and everybody loved and
respected you for it, it wouldn't be fun. If I didn't ride a bike, I'd
probably commute to work standing on the rear bumpers of busses (if you
can still do that).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I know,
Eric Wassermann The opinions expressed are not
Human Motor Control Section those of the Federal Government,
NINDS, NIH the U.S. Public Health Service
or the National Institutes of Health
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
my friends are laughing behind my back...club members too, and yes my family al
so worries, but it's not enough to make me change my mind. Had some pretty clo
se calls too and I know I'm going to get hit some day. Advice: to carry a good
life insurance policy and when they bury me make sure it with my bike...and
DON'T SCRATCH THE FRAME!
-tom
neil j.cherry
:steve Manifold (eza...@chpc.utexas.edu) wrote:
:
:: You have described the reactions of my family, wife and friends exactly. I
:: can understand my family's concern for my safety (although I travel a very
:: safe route, one of the safest in Austin, I think) but too often people just
:: think I am crazy for riding 19 miles to work early in the morning when I
:: could be driving a warm, comfortable car. Well, I think they are the crazy
:: ones, especially the ones who pay hundreds of dollars a year so they can
:: drive to a health club to get some exercise.
:
:: steve
:
:About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
:rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
:bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
:health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
:the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
:I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
:to say:
:
:"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
:dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
:any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
:comfortable, even when wet."
:
:I think a light just went on!
I know what you mean, my family, friend and co workers think I'm nuts. Only
other cyclists seem to understand.
One thing that drives them nuts is I'm always cold. Now I live in NJ and its
not exactly Florida when Jan and Feb rolls araound. But I've found that when
I ride I can generate enough heat to keep most of me warm. The one part that
gets cold is my feet, I'm hoping neopreen booties will help. Other than that
its really wild to stop at a light and have steam come off your cloths. Really
freaks out the people in cars!
NJC
Dieu-Huong T. Vo
>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>do during my rides )
>
>
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
>
First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while
thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
seeing you?
Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
and find someone close to us.
I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)
--
Teri Vo ter...@leland.stanford.edu
"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan
Royce Myers
>
> I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
> commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
> against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
> just think I'm insane.
You forgot local traffic engineers, bus drivers, other commuters...:))
Yes we cycle commuters are an oppressed minority, and are often treated
like second class citizens. It's not unlike being a Democrat who supports
the second amendment or (I presume) a Republican who is "pro-choice".
Sometimes you need to do things alone.
--
Royce Myers Ro...@ug.eds.com
Thomas H. Kunich
>About 1 month ago, my sister made a very interesting comment. Like the
>rest of my family, she did not understand why I would consider riding my
>bike when my warm car is sitting in the garage. Well, she joined a
>health club. She is feeling really good about herself and likes to tell
>the family how she is doing. During one of our telephone conversations
>I said something about being caught in the rain again. Her response was
>to say:
>
>"I used to think it was dumb to ride your bike to work, and it was REALLY
>dumb to ride in the rain. But you know, I just realized it doesn't make
>any difference. When you are working that hard, you can be warm and
>comfortable, even when wet."
I think that this is what people who bike have to keep in mind. We
have been brain-washed into believing that the most important thing
in life is to remain comfortable. Some of us learn that health is more
important and take whatever steps are necessary.
You have to pay for everything you get in life. In order to see that
great sunrise you have to drag yourself out of bed before dawn and
get situated. In order to enjoy vigorous health you have to engage in
vigorous exercise. We are just lucky that bicycling is fun all by itself.
When I ran I did it for my health but I hated every minute of it. Now I
bike for my health and only hate half of it -- the climbing part. :-)
Kevin Karplus
Although there are undoubtedly people locally who think cycle
commuters are nuts, 5.5% of the local workers commute by bike (1990
census for City of Santa Cruz). A large proportion of these commuters
are at UCSC, where I teach (latest count showed 1000 bikes a day
entering campus, no count has been done of bikes ridden by campus
residents--UCSC has about 10,000 students and 2,000? faculty/staff).
Once you get enough cycle commuters in an area, it becomes normal, not weird.
About half of the faculty in my department bike commute at least
occassionally---most of the rest live over 20 miles (and 2000 feet
elevation change) away.
On the other hand, being a bike activist (going to lots of meetings
and public hearings) is still regarded as weird, based on how few
people do it. I have had co-workers thank me for doing it, but I'd
rather have fewer thanks and more activists.
--
Kevin Karplus kar...@ce.ucsc.edu
Due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is
being turned off.
Steve Manifold
>
> You have to pay for everything you get in life. In order to see that
> great sunrise you have to drag yourself out of bed before dawn and
> get situated. In order to enjoy vigorous health you have to engage in
> vigorous exercise. We are just lucky that bicycling is fun all by itself.
>
Almost every morning that I commute by bike (sorry to say I am not up to
5 days a week yet) I lie in bed thinking "If I take the car I can stay
in my nice warm bed for 40 minutes more." But then I tell myself that when
I am out on the road on the bike watching the sun rise, I'll be glad I
did it, and this bed will be forgotten. Works every time.
mark.b.watson
>
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
[ ... stuff deleted ... ]
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
>
All I can say is that you are fortunate your wife says little against it!
It is an uphill strugggle all the way!
Mark Watson
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
-tom
Hans-Joachim Zierke
On 15.11.93, Steve...@its.csiro.au (Steve Green) writes:
> Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
> support from people close to them?
Support? Wherefore?
If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)
hajo
Ole Agesen
>If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
>even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
>times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)
>hajo
Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?
Ole
Richard Griffith
>>If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
>>even doesn't own a driving license.
>Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
>Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?
Does Canada count? You have to like the winter.
I just got my license last month, I am 29.
And yes I can make the claim.
I don't bike all year though. I switch to skates when the ice gets nice.
Richard Swent
At Stanford University, where I work, the bicycle commuting rate
is approximately 20%, and it is not considered unusual at all. This
is admittedly an island in an ocean of car commuters, but it shows
that once you build enough of a base to give the practice some
legitimacy and respectability, attitudes can be changed.It also
helps if the employer provides the physical facilities.
Rich
Patrick Edward Siegman
Here at Stanford, 55% of the campus' daytime population either
bicycle or walk to work or class.
But if you still feel like a lonely cyclist, come join us this
Thursday and start building a true bicycle community:
**** STANFORD BICYCLE COALITION *****
******** ORGANIZATIONAL MEETING THURSDAY *********
Noon, Thursday Nov. 18, Tresidder Union, Cypress South
(Bring your lunch)
Agenda: Proposing Design Standards & Bicycle Programs
Working alone, many of us have tried to get bike lockers or
showers for a particular building. Working alone, we*ve tried to
see a particular intersection fixed -- focussing on one tree and
ignoring the forest. But far more effective than focussing on
one intersection is helping Stanford set workable design
standards to make all Stanford roads safe for cycling, all offices
and dorms bike-friendly.
At this organizational meeting, we*ll split up into working
groups -- on road design, lockers and racks, bike police and so
on -- to first look at the best bike facilities, programs and
standards set elsewhere, and then suggest the standards
Stanford might adopt. To help us get started, we*ll have loads of
information on standards and programs from Palo Alto and
elsewhere, bike advocacy kits, and hopefully blueprints and
plans for upcoming Stanford projects.
So bring your ideas, enthusiasm, and your desire to help make
Stanford a better place for cycling. See you Thursday!
--Pat Siegman <peanut@leland> 328-2333
592 Alvarado Row, Stanford CA 94305
Thelma Lubkin
> >hajo
No: I don't have 10 close friends.
But I myself have never needed to learn to drive, and since my
husband hasn't driven in over 25 years we both use bikes for
everything from commuting to shopping to recreation.
I get lots of support of the 'I could never do that, but I
think it's great that you do' kind.
--thelma
> Ole
Dennis McCrohan
>I am out on the road on the bike watching the sun rise, I'll be glad I
>did it, and this bed will be forgotten. Works every time.
In this part of the world at this time of year, if you see the sunrise on the
way to work you must not have to be at work until 9 or 10, and you better be
able to leave by 3 to get home before sunset. Of course, normally this time of
year there is no sunrise, just a lighter shade of gray to go with the persistent
drizzle.
This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...
The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!
-dm
GARTH D SOMERVILLE
In article <1993Nov16.1...@tera.com>, den...@tera.com (Dennis McCrohan) writes:
|>
|>This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
|>care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
|>of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...
|>
|>The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
|>commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
|>people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
|>addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!
|>
It only seems unreasonably hard to those who do not do it. I find what you
say amusing because some of the reasons you sight for motoring are the
same reasons I pedal. First, I only have one car and I feel better if
its at home during the day for my wife to use. Second, my responsibilities
to my wife and daughter include both staying healthy and spending as much time
as I can with them. Taken together, this makes it more practical to
pedal than to drive because while driving time is 100% wasted time,
pedal time is not.
I do not know why you would assume that anyone who pedals to work must be
working obviously less than 12 hours a day, or why everyone with .edu
address is a student with no responsibilities. The real key is not be lazy
and not to assume that the goal is comfort. Getting up at 4:45 a.m. and
riding to work is not always fun, but doing it has always paid me back
several times more in benefits than whatever discomfort I had to suffer.
I think knowing this simple fact is the real difference between those
who do it and those who do not.
--
Garth Somerville
somer...@bae.ncsu.edu
gdso...@eos.ncsu.edu
Michael Smith
> This, along with a number of other practical reasons (12 hour work days, child
> care, a bridge across the lake with no bike/ped. access) is why I, and a lot
> of other drones, drive our little metal boxes like lemmings...
I used to have solid reasons for driving into work. Then I realized that I
was just making up excuses. Making up excuses is so much easier than
actually changing ones lifestyle.
If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
several thousands of dollars a year. Maybe then you wouldn't need to
work 12 hour days. When looking for a place to live (for some this only
happens once every few decades but it still happens), find a place that
helps with your commute. If there are barriers to bicycle commuting
(such as bridges), find out how the barriers can be overcome.
Sure not everybody can not use their cars for commuting to work but most
could if they really wanted to. Most simply don't want to.
Mike Smith
HP Labs
Don Hermes
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
It's hard to really call it support, it was more of a,
"Gee you're crazy, I wish I could do that."
I did get postitive comments from people who realized that
it was an environmentally positive thing to do.
Don Hermes
her...@crl.com
J10...@lmsc5.is.lmsc.lockheed.com
In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green who writes:
>>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>>do during my rides )
>>
>>[deleted stuff]
>>
>>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>>support from people close to them?
>First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while
>thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
>seeing you?
>Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
>and find someone close to us.
>I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)
>Teri Vo ter...@leland.stanford.edu
>"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
>Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan
Teri, I think this is the second of your recent posts where you take a
grammatical or typo and put that "special" spin on it...the last one had
something to do with riding a trainer...
What's on your mind?
yes, I keep track...;)
MartyG
Jennifer R. Accettola
>>I was thinging during my ride in to work this morning ( as I aften
>>do during my rides )
>>
>[deleted stuff]
>>
>>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>>support from people close to them?
>
>First off, I have to congratulate you. Must be hard to balance while
>thinging. You really do this often? Aren't you worried about people
>seeing you?
>Must of us, I suspect, once through adolescence, give up thinging
>and find someone close to us.
>I hope Jenn doesn't turn this into another alt.bike.lycra.sex thing :-)
>"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
>Pete Stark re Clinton's health care plan
Why Teri! Why would you thing such a thing (or think?).
I wasn't even thinging about it!
Cute .sig by the way!
I am also among the victims of the anti-bike-commuting
conspiracy. It's really hard to convince your relatives and
significant others of the merits of cycling as opposed to driving
when they refer to you as "Kamikaze" or "Hurricane" Jenn!
Fortunately, the cost of insurance in New Orleans is so prohibitive
that I have the perfect excuse *not* to drive (well, not owning
a car or having a LA driver's license also count in that category).
Ciao, Jenn
je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu
"There once was a family in Philadelphia that went through
four generations without fingerprints at all: they were
born without prints, the only known case in history. 'This
could present quite a problem for law enforcement,' said
one public official. 'No way,' replied another. 'If the
police ever find a murder weapon in Philly with no prints
on it, we'll know one of *them* did it.'"
--Tom Robbins, 1976 "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues"
Jennifer R. Accettola
>THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLING!
>
> -tom
Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex
type of thing? Hmmm? Tom, what do you have to say in defense of yourself,
what exactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?
Ciao, Jenn
bui tho xuan
>In article <T...@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLING!
>> -tom
>Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex
>type of thing? Hmmm? Tom, what do you have to say in defense of yourself,
>what exactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?
>Ciao, Jenn
Don't know about Tom, but for me, THE GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD is
to be able to unwrap my wife off my neck after a ride in 10 degrees F
weather.
Can't wait 'til you guys pounce on the next typo...
tho
Kevin Karplus
Ole Agesen challenges:
> >If I look at my 10 closest friends, only 2 own a car. One of them
> >even doesn't own a driving license. And since she gets about 3
> >times of my payment, its not for financial reasons. ;-)
>
> >hajo
>
> Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
> Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?
Well, I'm not sure I quite qualify, being from Santa Cruz, California
(it's in the US, just in the 1960s).
Counting several of my closest friends:
Jim, Jessica, Don, Don, Ron, Rick, and John, do not own cars.
Neither do I, and I've never had a driver's license.
OK, that's only 7, but I could get a dozen or so more if I was
allowed to count acquaintances, rather than friends.
Before we get accused of being impecunious students, only one of those
listed is a student (and he went back to school after several years as
a VLSI designer). Jim & Jessica, Don, Ron, Rick, and I each own our
own houses (in the second most unaffordable market in the country,
according to the American Realtors Association, who define it using
the ratio of the median house price to the median household
income---San Francisco is the least affordable market, and Champagne,
IL the most).
Dieu-Huong T. Vo
Hey Tho, does this have something to do with using your
wife for balance?
Just to let you know we're paying attention.
--
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
-tom
>>Hey, TERI!!! What about Tom turning this into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex type
xactly is the first GREATEST feeling in the world?
Well Jenn, looks like you brought up the subject of sex, I never said anything
about sex...all I said was: "THE SECOND GREATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD IS CYCLIN
G!" Sound to me like it's your problem not mine! Kidda makes me wonder about y
our other postings about Women cycling alone. For your Records: MY FIRST GRE
ATEST FEELING IN THE WORLD is riding in my dads Ferrari Red Ferrari Dino!
-tom
Dieu-Huong T. Vo
Sounds like auto-eroticism to me! :-)
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
she also writes: >"I kissed the frog and it remained a frog."
need I say more?
-tom
Thomas H. Kunich
>If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>several thousands of dollars a year.
And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
changes? Come on now.
Gasoline? I pay $20 a week for gas. Multiplied by 52 that's $1040 a year
for gasoline and if I don't commute I still use almost that much in gas.
I simply drive more at other times.
BART would cost me more to commute than my car. I know because I used it
for 6 years. Bicycling would take me about 1 1/2 hours to go from San
Leandro to Berkeley whereas the car requires about 1/2 hour.
These aren't excuses, they are facts. Some people are in a position to
commute via bicycle. On the one rare occassion when I had a nice 8 mile
commute I rode my bike 4 days a week, but that job only lasted 6 weeks.
Furthermore, bicycling early in the morning when drivers are trying
to shave, drink coffee and see around fogged up windows isn't my idea
of acting in a safe and sane manner.
Richard F. Masoner
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
Everyone I know thinks I'm an absolute nut because of the
21 miles I commute through heavy traffic. Everyone I work
with is amazed I'm not dead yet; my wife, like yours, isn't
negative, but she isn't absolutely positive either.
>Maybe my continued cycle commuting as actually a manifestation
>of rebellious feels?
I'm convinced this is the case for me. I love it!
--
Richard F. Masoner rich...@sdf.lonestar.org
Seen on a magazine cover: "Guns don't kill people, television does"
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
hrough heavy traffic. Everyone I work with is amazed I'm not dead yet; my wife
, like yours, isn't negative, but she isn't absolutely positive either.
Richard, know the feeling, my commute is 28 miles oneway. When I first started
commuting by bike 3 years ago I thought I would die. Heavy traffic, fatigue
and weather conditions took it's toll on me, plus the negative comments from my
family and friends, but I never gave up. I still sometimes get the negative co
mments, but the 28miles is a drop in the bucket...good luck commuting and never
give-up!
-tom
David Casseres
writes:
>I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
>commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
>against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
>just think I'm insane.
>
>
>Is this a common experience or do others actually get some
>support from people close to them?
It's nice to be reminded of how lucky I am. My entire family, my employer,
and my friends all strongly support my bike commuting.
-------------
David Casseres
Exclaimer: Hey!
Tim Sullivan
to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) wrote this about
"Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspi":
>
>
>And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>changes? Come on now.
>
My insurance rates are based on a number of factors. One of which is on
the number of days driven to work, and how far that drive is.
>
>Furthermore, bicycling early in the morning when drivers are trying
>to shave, drink coffee and see around fogged up windows isn't my idea
>of acting in a safe and sane manner.
>
When I commute (I average 4 days a week, March through November) I
encounter dangerous situations, but none that I can remember due
to inattention of the driver because they were engaged in any activities
like those listed. If anything, I find drivers during commute time
more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that
time.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Sullivan
ti...@cci.com
Alan Bloom
: In article <CGII3...@its.csiro.au> Steve Green <Steve...@its.csiro.au> writes:
: >I suddenly realized that NOBODY I know is supportive of my cycle
: >commuting. My parents insist it dangerous. My wife says little
: >against it, but never says anything for it either. And my friends
: >just think I'm insane.
: Everyone I know thinks I'm an absolute nut because of the
: 21 miles I commute through heavy traffic.
This thread has been kind of surprising to me. Everyone I know has been
supportive of my commuting. Maybe Sonoma County is more health and
environment-conscious than most places :=)
Alan Bloom
Alan Bloom
: ... If anything, I find drivers during commute time
: more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
: are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
: be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that
: time.
I find the same thing. For one thing, I can only remember getting beeped
at once or twice while commuting during the last 6 months, but it has
happened a number of times on recreational rides, even though they amount
to fewer hours.
Alan Bloom
Marc San Soucie
> The truth is, even in one of the most bike-friendly parts of the country, bike
> commuting is difficult at best, and just plain impractical for a lot of working
> people with responsibilities to others. This is not to flame people with .edu
> addresses, but I remember those days and life was a lot simpler then!
These difficulties, though, are often (not always) the result of choices
made previously while under the assumption that transportation would be
cheap and convenient. As traffic increases and infrastructure becomes more
expensive, these assumptions gradually become less accurate. Many people,
given the opportunity to remake those choices (such as, how far away from
work to live), might agreeably choose differently, in a way that would make
walking, cycling, or using transit far less "difficult".
Marc San Soucie
Portland, Oregon
ma...@netcom.com
Marc San Soucie
> In article <MGSMITH.93...@hpl.hp.com> mgs...@hpl.hp.com (Michael Smith) writes:
> >If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
> >several thousands of dollars a year.
> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
> changes? Come on now.
Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
depreciation.
John Ciccarelli
In article <2cjq57$6...@fido.asd.sgi.com>, <akk...@moab.wpd.sgi.com> writes:
>
> Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
> financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
> argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
> and go everywhere by bike.
It's not silly. Big savings accrue not by *completely* doing without a car,
but by being a 1-car family instead of a 2-car family. Planners in Montgomery
County, Maryland (northern suburb of Washington DC) estimated that a family
that replaces one of their two cars with a bike can qualify for a $25K bigger
mortgage.
My wife and I have avoided replacing a second car (our first car until it
reached the end of its engine life) because I bike (and take the bike on buses
and trains) for nearly all my solo transportation. Also, the car has a
convenient folding bike rack so we can "rideshare" part of the way to places,
without her having to drop me off or pick me up. Counting interest, insurance,
depreciation (the car wearing out and being worth less each year), and
maintenance (at >$150 for a major tuneup) that's many hundreds of dollars
annually -- way more than bike maintenance.
Even single people who must have one car can still realize insurance savings
(my insurer gives a considerable discount for going from "commute" to
"occasional" use), interest savings (you might actually pay off your loan
before your car wears out), and of course reduced depreciation / increased
resale value.
There are "car sharing" coops in Europe wherein people share the use of one or
more cars. Ideal if you only need a car occasionally, or if you'd like access
to a specific vehicle type (pickup, camper, ...) without having to own it
yourself. You could own a high-efficiency car and share a truck, for instance.
So there are plenty of incremental savings to be had by reducing car use
without doing without them altogether.
/John Ciccarelli
Philip G. Aaronson
>And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>changes? Come on now.
>
>Gasoline? I pay $20 a week for gas. Multiplied by 52 that's $1040 a year
>for gasoline and if I don't commute I still use almost that much in gas.
>I simply drive more at other times.
I'm not sure how much money I've saved
by bike commuting, if I've paid for my bike
($550) I'd be more than happy. I don't bike
commute because of the money, its more, I
hate driving in rush hour, simple as that.
In terms of the big numbers I save, the
biggest is because my car is on its way out.
I have 180,000 miles on it and I feel pretty
confident that if I had been commuting in it
for the past two years (since I started bike
commuting) it would be dead and gone and I
would have had to find another damn car.
For those of us not ready to go completely
carless I think the big savings would be
for a couple. Where it means the difference
between having just one car rather than two.
I've been trying to explain this to a married
grad student buddy of mine who often complains
about grad pay yet still has two cars, but to no
avail.
For you and your new car, if you save 5000 miles
a year off your car, over the life of the car
that's no small amount. Not to mention the great
shape you'll be in ... maybe we should we talk
medical bills?
Plus we're still ignoring the savings I get for
having my car classified as recreational for insurance
purposes. The gas I do save, regular maintenance,
etc etc etc.
Lata,
Phil
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Phil Aaronson | email: aaro...@nas.nasa.gov |
| Junior Research Scientist | phone: (415) 604-4527 |
| NASA Ames Research Center | Get on the bike, ride the bike |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
"Get the word out ... We are here." - Woodside Officer, badge#517
Akkana Peck
>> >several thousands of dollars a year.
>
>> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
>> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
>> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
>> changes? Come on now.
Marc San Soucie <ma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>depreciation.
$18,000! So who said it's necessary to buy an $18k car every 5 years
in order to commute?
If I commute on a Kestrel, and I have to buy a new one every month
because it keeps getting stolen, then I'd be saving thousands of dollars
a year by commuting in my car (which cost far less than a Kestrel, BTW).
Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
and go everywhere by bike.
...Akkana akk...@moab.wpd.sgi.com
akk...@netcom.com
John Ciccarelli
Tim Sullivan (ti...@cci.com) wrote:
> : ... If anything, I find drivers during commute time
> : more predictable than other times as they generally know where they
> : are going, they are used to condition of the streets and seem to
> : be attentive as there is usually a high volume of traffic at that time.
Alan Bloom responded:
> I find the same thing. For one thing, I can only remember getting beeped
> at once or twice while commuting during the last 6 months, but it has
> happened a number of times on recreational rides, even though they amount
> to fewer hours.
One dangerous motorist behavior is that of a driver reaching over to attend to
a child in the front seat, momentarily taking their attention off the road. Of
course this can happen at any hour, but its effects are especially dangerous
at commute time.
Recently a Silicon Valley bike commuter was hospitalized after being struck
from behind during rush hour by a woman driving a car with a young child. It
happened next to a long freeway entrance lane where thru cyclists must "ride
the line" for an extended distance -- probably the worst place to be
distracted.
"Keep your eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel"
-- Jim Morrison and The Doors, "Roadhouse"
/John Ciccarelli
bui tho xuan
>>> >If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>>> >several thousands of dollars a year.
>>Tom K wrote:
>>> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from?
>Marc San Soucie <ma...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>>depreciation.
>
>$18,000! So who said it's necessary to buy an $18k car every 5 years
>in order to commute?
>If I commute on a Kestrel, and I have to buy a new one every month
>because it keeps getting stolen, then I'd be saving thousands of dollars
>a year by commuting in my car (which cost far less than a Kestrel, BTW).
Who said it's necessary to buy a $2K bike to commute :-)? The cheapest
working car that I've seen is 500 bucks. The cheapest working bike I've
seen is 50 dollars. We shouldn't compare apples with kiwis.
The saving is real, on the average. This is especially accute for
the large number (my assumption here) of US households that have 2 or more
cars. If you bike, and your spouse drive, you'll save the cost of the
car and cost of its maintenance and depreciation.
>Bike commuting is great for health and for the environment, but the
>financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
>argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
>and go everywhere by bike.
As with most things, you can save lots of money if you do the right
thing for your situation. There is no single cure-all for making
money, with the exception being Dave Rhoades Lefters :-).
I think the strongest argument against bicycle commuting is: I don't
want to. It is a free country after all.
tho
William D. Volk
In article <tomkCGq...@netcom.com> (rec.bicycles.soc), to...@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
> And where are these thousands of dollars of savings coming from? Insurance?
> I would have to pay that in any case since I have a new car that must
> be covered 100%. Maintenance? Modern cars don't have much maintenance. Oil
> changes? Come on now.
>
I don't commute by bicycle at this time, so I'm no fanatic. The reasons
I don't mainly involve a 17 mile each way commute (in Los Angeles)
and a lack of shower facilities at work, and the fact that I am just
too lazy.
I did commute by bicycle (not all the time) when I lived in Palo Alto for 3
years, it was a 4.5 mile commute each way and quite pleasent (no sweat).
Also used the bicycle for weekend outings (as opposed to driving).
Put more miles on the bicycle than on my car. I did save money ...
Here's how:
1. Reduced the miles/per/year on my '84 car to well under 5K/yr., got a reduction
in Car Insurance payments of around $200 or so (annual).
2. Now have a 10 year old (new) car with only 55K Miles on it. I don't
have to buy a new car for quite some time. So I probabilly saved
the cost of buying a new car.
Car is in great shape since it wasn't used for short trips (which wear out
the engine more per. mile than long trips).
I think that anything under 5 miles is a no-brainer on a bicycle.
So your commute may be too long.
Doing 17 2x in Los Angeles will be a trick.... maybe a recumbent
with a celluar telephone and CD Player?
William Volk
(I hated it when my Cat Micro Odometer on my bicycle ran out of batteries
at 9540 miles).
Thomas H. Kunich
>
>Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>depreciation.
Hmm, that sounds like you're saying that depreciation of your car doesn't
occur if you're riding your bike. Sorry, depreciation occurs more by year
than mileage. In fact, just try and collect on your insurance policy by
claiming that your car was in better condition than they're willing to pay
for in the even of a collision.
David M Primm
Besides, when anyone asks me why I ride regardless of the weather (only has
sleet stopped me from riding last year) I shrug. If they talk of danger or
anything like you are experiencing, I remind them they already determined I
was crazy. I do believe only bikers understand.
Ride on!
David
--
David M Primm
dpr...@iastate.edu
Andy Nourse
>If you ride a bike instead of taking a car almost everyday, you can save
>several thousands of dollars a year.
To arrive at this figure, you have to completely replace a large, expensive
gas-guzzler with a bicycle. "Almost" won't do, then you'd still need the car,
and still incur all the fixed costs thereof.
> Maybe then you wouldn't need to work 12 hour days.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
> When looking for a place to live (for some this only
> happens once every few decades but it still happens),
> find a place that helps with your commute.
We are not willing to give up our six cats and most of our
belongings to cram into an apartment in the City. We would
rather live in a place that is nice to bicycle in (the
Peninsula O.S.P is all around us) than easy to bicycle from.
If there are barriers to bicycle commuting (such as bridges)
No bridge, just a mountain and a freeway,
and time, to the tune of 5 hours round trip.
>Sure not everybody can not use their cars for commuting to work but most
>could if they really wanted to. Most simply don't want to.
If by this you mean that we are not willing to give up every
other aspect of our lifestyle to do so, perhaps you are right.
bob_roll
not to mention the lack of car payments when you don't own a car ...
Hans-Joachim Zierke
On 16.11.93, age...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Ole Agesen) writes:
> Unsurprisingly, Hans-Joachim is not from the U.S. (nor from California ;-)
> Anyone in the U.S. who can claim the same as Hans-Joachim?
The claim is still only possible for a "subculture", in an urban
environment with good public transport added to bicycle use.
(Sidenote: Winter began here yesterday, and since most cardrivers
are not able to handle their cars, the streets are unusable in
front of intersections. So I simply switch to public transport for
some days.)
In the 80s, this was a "subculture" of pupils and students. In the
90's, not surprisingly, they are urban professionals.
In Berlin, getting rid of a car is widely accepted in an academic
environment. It is still hard to get acceptance in a blue-collar
environment.
hajo
Jennifer R. Accettola
HEY! Teri started it! She said to be careful or Jenn would turn this
into an alt.cycling.lycra.sex thing and after I read your post I had to wonder
what was on your mind! What's a Ferrari Dino?
Ciao,
Kamikaze Jenn
je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu
"There once was a family in Philadelphia that went through
four generations without fingerprints at all: they were
born without prints, the only known case in history. 'This
could present quite a problem for law enforcement,' said
one public official. 'No way,' replied another. 'If the
police ever find a murder weapon in Philly with no prints
on it, we'll know one of *them* did it.'"
--Tom Robbins, 1976 "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues"
Jennifer R. Accettola
owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even
gone for four weeks without even riding in my boyfriend's van. I
go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
"bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.
I use my bike for transportation all the time! I actually envy
all those folks on the "anti commuting conspiracy" thread who
ride 21 miles to work-- I wish I had to ride that far! I hate
living in the city!
So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do not own
a car? The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
move to a new apartment, and in going out at night (pretty
senseless to ride around New Orleans at 10pm, especially if
you want to go hear music in the French Quarter!).
The advantages are endless-- no car payments, no insurance, no
gas or repair expenses, I don't have to worry about parking (esp.
since most houses don't have off-street parking here!), plus I
stay in shape and set a good example for little kids by wearing
my helmet :) !!
Ciao,
Andre Yew
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even
I don't even know how to drive a car! This always makes
me wonder how street-legal I am, since most cyclists have taken
traffic exams and do know traffic rules (though Santa Barbara
cyclists like to pretend they don't), and all I know is what I've
read in Forrester's _Effective Cycling_ and watching driving friends.
I guess this isn't a big deal since there are small kids out there
riding with the traffic as well.
There are some disadvantages though. Anything that requires
moving heavy things is out. Parking is a problem in a different
way --- you have to have a place to lock the bike up. And travelling
at night can be a problem. Also, sometimes I'm just not motivated to
ride somewhere especially if I've just done a pretty hard ride.
--Andre
--
PGP public key available
Jym Dyer
> but by being a 1-car family instead of a 2-car family.
=o= 0-car families save even more. I *don't* think it's "silly"
to suggest such a thing. Many families use their car(s) almost
entirely for short trips, and only occasionally for trips of a
substantial duration. In this case it becomes more economical
to stick to bikes and rent a car for those occasional trips.
> There are "car sharing" coops in Europe wherein people share
> the use of one or more cars. Ideal if you only need a car
> occasionally . . .
=o= Great idea!
<_Jym_>
Don't :::: Jym Dyer ::: j...@remarque.berkeley.edu :::: ::::
Be A :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: __Q :::
Fossil ::::: Bumpersticker: "My other car is :::: ==`\<s ::
Fool :::::::::::::::::::::: also a bicycle." :::: (*)^ (*) ::
Jym Dyer
> not own a car?
=/= I don't own one. Since the age of 16 (when I got my first
driver's license) I've spent 8 years driving autos and 9 years
riding bikes.
> The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
> move to a new apartment . . .
=\= If you don't have a driver's license, I can see how it
would be a disadvantage. Once when I was in that situation
I ended up carrying everything on my back. Good thing I had
nomadic furniture then.
=/= If you do have a driver's license and you're at least 25,
it's just a matter of renting a car or truck. Since this is
cheaper than owning one, I don't consider it a disadvantage
overall.
> . . . and in going out at night . . .
=\= This is a real stumbling block in some areas, alas.
T...@slacvm.slac.stanford.edu
Ferrari Dino \ fer-ar-e de-no: 1:A dinosaur looking dog used in the Flintstone
cartoon series. Even cowgirls can ride them with or without spandex, but they
have to be careful not to get the blues, or black & blues?
-tom
John Ciccarelli
In article <C0jmli9...@activis.activision.com>, <wv...@activision.com>
writes:
> Doing 17 [miles] 2x in Los Angeles will be a trick...
Why not do 17 miles 1x, not 2x. Partner with 1 (or 2, or 3) coworkers and keep
a folding bike rack in the trunk of one of their cars ($60 or so; you own it
but they keep it for the duration). You bike in, you and partner drive home.
Partner drops you within 1 or 2 miles of home, you bike the rest of the way.
Or do the whole thing in reverse, where you rideshare in and bike home -- your
choice.
It's called a "bike/carpool".
/John Ciccarelli
Drew W. Saunders
j...@remarque.berkeley.edu writes:
>> So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do
>> not own a car?
I've never owned a car. I'm just too damn cheap, and proud of it.
Actually, I can claim quite reasonably that it wouldn't be
economically sensible from a cost/utility ratio for me to own one
given my current situation. (I live close to work, have no kids,
live near a train station, etc.)
>> The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
>> move to a new apartment . . .
>=/= If you do have a driver's license and you're at least 25,
>it's just a matter of renting a car or truck.
Not all truck rental places want you to be at least 25. When I
moved I was able to rent a pickup with no extra fees, even though
at the time I wasn't yet 25. All I needed was a current license,
I think it was out of state as well, and they didn't mind.
>> . . . and in going out at night . . .
>
>=\= This is a real stumbling block in some areas, alas.
Again, car rental can be a good option, but might add up in price.
Depends on where you're going. Remember, with all the money
you're saving by not owning a car, the (very) occasional limo
rental might be a worthwile indulgence.
Drew
Drew W. Saunders
and...@ugcs.caltech.edu writes:
> I don't even know how to drive a car! This always makes
>me wonder how street-legal I am, since most cyclists have taken
>traffic exams and do know traffic rules (though Santa Barbara
>cyclists like to pretend they don't), and all I know is what I've
>read in Forrester's _Effective Cycling_ and watching driving
friends.
>I guess this isn't a big deal since there are small kids out there
>riding with the traffic as well.
While getting my CA driver's license (I even rode my bike to the
DMV) I picked up a little booklet called the "Good Driver's
Handbook" (or something like that) and read it while standing in
line. I ended up getting 1 wrong on the written test. This
either means that: I know a lot about good driving, or that any
moron can get a CA driver's license. It's a wee of the former and
a lot of the latter. I'd recommend going to your local DMV and
getting a copy of the booklet, it's quite useful, and free. I'd
guess that most other states would have a similar booklet.
Drew
Thelma Lubkin
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
We owned a car for 4 years at the beginning of our marriage
(Saturday marked 31 years after the beginning); I never learned to
drive it. We brought up 2 children (who aren't continuing the
tradition: our daughter hasn't learned to drive at 25, but she hardly
ever bikes either) with bikes and feet and public transport (and a
little help from friends w/ cars, too)
> I go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
> to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
> "bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.
ditto, ditto, ditto and I go to work on my bike, and to
concerts (especially organ recitals: churches always have shelter for
our bikes), and to beaches, and to doctors and dentists, and to return
exam books to students in my husband's physics classes, and to pick
people up from the airport (no, I don't do that; my husband runs the
pick up service with our tandem whenever he can convince a traveler to
do it)...
--thelma
> Jenn
> je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu
Ken Iisaka
|> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
|> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle. I have even
|> gone for four weeks without even riding in my boyfriend's van. I
|> go grocery shopping on my bike, I go to school on my bike, I go
|> to the bank downtown on my bike... thus rendering the concept of
|> "bicycle commuting" irrelevant to my particular situation.
Not uncommon here in NYC. With $3000+/year in insurance + all the headache you
get from getting your car broken in (my in-laws visiting from Canada had their
car broken in on the second day of their visit, and we live in a "good"
neighbourhood!) it's STOOOOOOOPID to own a car here except under unusual
circumstances. New York Times once called NYC car owners, "transportationally
eccentric." As long as we live in the city, we won't even think about buying a
car. There are much better things on which to spend my money.
--
Ken Iisaka (kii...@is.morgan.com) All opinions and statements
Information Services, Morgan Stanley & Co. Inc. presented here are my own.
1 Pierrepont Plaza, Brooklyn, New York 11201
Work: +1 718 754 2927 Home: +1 718 852 4943 Pager: +1 917 812 5027 (NYC)
Alan Bloom
: Re: Re: Is there an anti-cycle-commuting conspi
: not to mention the lack of car payments when you don't own a car ...
It always amuses me to hear how extravagant it is to pay $1000 for a
bicycle, from someone who pays $800 A MONTH in car payments. :=)
Alan Bloom
Alan Bloom
: owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
I could have made the same statement before early 1974 (when I was
24 years old.)
Alan Bloom
Richard Griffith
James W Gregory
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
I've been carless (actually, "pickup-truckless") for the past 7 years.
The only time I drive a car is when I rent a car for a few days to
visit my folks around Xmas or Thanksgiving.
My carless-ness, in fact, led me to a new vocation. I needed some way
to carry large items from the hardware store so i could renovate my
small 1-bedroom house. I built a crude wooden trailer, then built a
better one, then bought a Burley and lengthened it, then built one
using steel conduit from scratch, then built two other ones using
aluminum conduit, 'til I finally arrived at the one I've got now. I
soon realized I could carry just as much with one of my trailers as a
car, so I decided to start a bicycle-powered delivery service. Our
community lacks a curbside recycling program, so i branched out and
started a bicycle-powered curbside recycling service, too. A couple
of (carless) families, seeing how much easier a trailer would make
their lives, asked me to built trailers for them, so i started
building an occassional trailer for other people as well.
Today I carried home three 4'x8' sheets of gypsum board from the
hardware store on my trailer so I could start replacing the panelling
in my bedroom. Who says being carless requires compromise and
sacrifice??? :-).
-jim
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Gregory fres...@iastate.edu | "10,000 lemmings can't be wrong"
Dept. of Plant Pathology, ISU (by day) | - anonymous
Fresh Aire Delivery Services (by night/weekends)
Jack Weiss
transportation. My work commute entails 175 miles of bicycling per
week. It was pretty much the same way when I lived in Michigan but
my commute wasn't as far and I tended to walk rather than bike.
Raleigh, NC has a great climate for year-round bicycling but almost
no one takes bicycling (or walking for that matter) seriously here.
It's hard to believe it consistently ranks as one of the top five
places to live in the U.S.
Keep plugging away Jenn. It's nice to know there are folks
like you out there. :-)
Hans-Joachim Zierke
On 21.11.93, je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu (Jennifer R. Accettola) writes:
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
Never had my own car, but used to earn my living as a student by driving a
40-ton truck in international transport.
So will you count me? :-))
h.
Dennis McCrohan
>year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
>depreciation.
WRONG! Most of the depreciation occurs by age, not by milage. Look in the blue
book, very little extra is given for low-mileage vehicles. In fact, low mileage
may be bad in some cases, if it indicates infrequent use and short trips, all
of which wear the engine and tranny very quickly. Our second car is used infrequently
by my wife, as she is in a carpool. However, I calculate that fact makes $0 difference
in the carrying cost of the vehicle. Why? Better than 90% of the cost of
ownership is accounted for by 3 things; depreciation (fixed by age!), insurance
(the insurance company only gives a minor discount for <7500 miles), and
lost investment income (we paid cash). The only money we save with it sitting
in the garage is parking fees, which is why she carpools. This is why all forms
of alternative transport fail in honest economic comparisons - unless you can
get rid of the car entirely you are almost always better off dollar-wise
driving it to work. And if you get rid of the car, then you have no way to
get the mountain bike to the mountains on the weekend! Cycling to work is
more fun and healthy, but I know it doesn't save me a dime.
With regards to choosing where to work/live, in this economic climate most people
don't have a lot of choices. We could never afford a house near my present
employer, and even if we could, my wife would be stuck with a gawd-awful
commute, and my child would be stuck in lousy schools (when the time comes). I'd
have to be pretty selfish about wanting to be able to ride to work to force
my family into those kind of sacrifices. And right after I did, I'd get laid-off!
-dm
John Pescatore
McCrohan) wrote:
> >Depreciation. $18000 car divided (generously) by 5 years equals $3600 per
> >year of depreciation. Less use means longer life means less annual
> >depreciation.
>
> WRONG! Most of the depreciation occurs by age, not by milage. Look in the blue
> book, very little extra is given for low-mileage vehicles. In fact, low mileage
> may be bad in some cases, if it indicates infrequent use and short trips, all
> of which wear the engine and tranny very quickly. Our second car is used infrequently
> by my wife, as she is in a carpool. However, I calculate that fact makes $0 difference
> in the carrying cost of the vehicle. Why? Better than 90% of the cost of
> ownership is accounted for by 3 things; depreciation (fixed by age!), insurance
> (the insurance company only gives a minor discount for <7500 miles), and
> lost investment income (we paid cash). The only money we save with it sitting
> in the garage is parking fees, which is why she carpools. This is why all forms
> of alternative transport fail in honest economic comparisons - unless you can
> get rid of the car entirely you are almost always better off dollar-wise
> driving it to work. And if you get rid of the car, then you have no way to
> get the mountain bike to the mountains on the weekend! Cycling to work is
> more fun and healthy, but I know it doesn't save me a dime.
>
> dm
My commute when I drive is 12 miles each way, for a total of 120 miles per
week. My truck gets roughly 20 miles per gallon, so my gas cost for
commuting is about $6.50 each week. If I cycled 20 weeks out of 52, that
adds up to about $130 and a net reduction of about 2400 miles of travel on
my car (actually more, since I would drive at lunch) so lets throw in
another $20 for oil, tires, and other expendables. So, at a minimum,
cycling to work less than half the time would still save me 1,500 dimes,
without even considering depreciation or other soft savings.
Now, if the gasoline tax was raised to fully cover the costs of the road
system, and if my employer was forced to make us pay for auto parking, that
could easily double to 3,000 dimes or so.
If my health plan gave a discount for stress reduction and healthier
patients of, let's say, 10 percent, that could add another 2,000 dimes to
the savings.
Let's lop off $100 bucks for bicycle maintenance and increased ordering
from Nashbar, for a potential yearly saving of 4,000 dimes. So, today I
save about $150 per year pretty easily. A few minor tweaks that will
probably happen sooner or later anyway, and I'll be saving $400 per year -
and I'll still have two cars and put over 35,000 miles per year on those
cars!
Cycling to work is more fun and healthy, and saves many dimes, but is
awfully incovenient compared to driving to work.
John
--
John Pescatore WB2EKK
GTE Government Systems
Rockville, MD
pescat...@ncsd.gte.com
Mark Simms
whilst I was still living with my parents using my father's car. (UK
driving tests are pretty stiff and do require you to be able to drive
pretty well.) My wife has no license. We use bicycles for short
journeys such as shopping and commuting. Public transport is good for
longer trips. If necessary, cycles can be taken on trains to combine
the two, but this does require a little planning ahead. We have a 2
year old son and a Burley trailer.
It is a good idea to shop around for stores that deliver things free.
This is a major factor in where to shop. The distance to the store is
then not an issue provided they deliver in your area. I have once
hred a van to transport an electric cooker from my parents house to
the flat in which I was living. I have once hired a car on holiday.
I occasionally drive on business, but am getting a little obstinate in
my old age and starting to try to avoid that.
I do not like driving. I prefer to walk. Bicycles and public
transport are a medium that are necessary for life in our society.
Car ownership is not necessary for someone living in an urban
environment. It is a very expensive luxury.
Mark Simms
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: Mark Simms
Profession: Software Engineer
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Computer Peripherals Division
Unix-mail: ma...@hpcpbla.bri.hp.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Malcolm
>Cycling to work is more fun and healthy, and saves many dimes, but is
>awfully incovenient compared to driving to work.
When car congestion reaches the stage, as it has already in some
British cities during the rush hour, that a bicycle can get to work
significantly faster than a car, cycling to work starts to become more
convenient.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aifh +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
Michael Smith
>FROM: Jennifer R. Accettola <je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu>
>
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never
> owned (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
> I use my bike for transportation all the time! I actually envy
> all those folks on the "anti commuting conspiracy" thread who
> ride 21 miles to work-- I wish I had to ride that far! I hate
> living in the city!
Living in the city is what *enables* you (and me, by the way) not to
own a car. If you lived in the suburbs you -- or at any rate your
household -- wouldn't be able to avoid it. And the use of your bicycle
for utility and commuting trips would be more difficult, since trips
are generally longer and delivery options (in grocery stores, for
example) less abundant.
Of course, once you own the car and accept the fixed costs of
ownership, the marginal costs of a car trip will generally be less
than the alternatives; moreover, suburban milieux cannot
be well served by public transportation (too diffuse).
The car and the suburb are two sides of the same coin -- the
inseparable Siamese twins of environmental degradation. Urbanization
is an indispensable part of the solution.
By the way, the bike distance between my apartment and my job is about
22 miles, and I live in Manhattan.
--Michael Smith
Katherine Becker
: I'm 40 and don't own a car and almost never use public
: week. It was pretty much the same way when I lived in Michigan but
: my commute wasn't as far and I tended to walk rather than bike.
Jack also rides cross-country carrying hundreds of pounds of books on
his bike. He doesn't even have a trailer to haul them in.
--
Katherine Becker bec...@aa.wl.com
2753 Plymouth Road, Suite #140
Ann Arbor, MI 48105
(313) 996-7157 days
John B Iodice
: a car? The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
: move to a new apartment, and in going out at night
Well I own a car, and use it to commute, but when I go out at night, I use
my bike. Usually, I'm going someplace with my girlfriend and we ride my
70's-vintage Schwinn tandem. I find cars impractical for this kind of
thing. If you're going someplace crowded, you'll have to park a car far away,
and face heavy traffic on the way in and out. Worse yet is the alcohol
problem. Are you going to cab home and figure out the next day how to get
your car? The "designated driver" plan sounds great, unless you're the
driver. Everybody speaks sanctimoniously about the evils of drunk driving,
but when you drive to a bar, you're pretty much planning a little bit of it.
Plus, it's a much cooler way to arrive.
--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~//~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~
John Iodice \\
Telesciences C.O. Systems Inc // Truth flies like an arrow
jio...@telesciences.com \\ Fruit flies like a banana
609-866-1000-364 //
--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~*-~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~--~
Thomas J. Smith
>Jennifer R. Accettola (je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu) wrote:
>: So, how many cyclists out there have never owned or do not own
>: a car? The only major disadvantages I face are when I have to
>: move to a new apartment, and in going out at night
>Well I own a car, and use it to commute, but when I go out at night, I use
>my bike. Usually, I'm going someplace with my girlfriend and we ride my
>70's-vintage Schwinn tandem. I find cars impractical for this kind of
>thing. If you're going someplace crowded, you'll have to park a car far away,
>and face heavy traffic on the way in and out. Worse yet is the alcohol
>problem. Are you going to cab home and figure out the next day how to get
>your car? The "designated driver" plan sounds great, unless you're the
>driver. Everybody speaks sanctimoniously about the evils of drunk driving,
>but when you drive to a bar, you're pretty much planning a little bit of it.
Yes, but isn't "cycling under the influence" also against the law?
Armand Aghabegian
>If you're going someplace crowded, you'll have to park a car far away,
>and face heavy traffic on the way in and out. Worse yet is the alcohol
>problem. Are you going to cab home and figure out the next day how to get
>your car? The "designated driver" plan sounds great, unless you're the
>driver. Everybody speaks sanctimoniously about the evils of drunk driving,
>but when you drive to a bar, you're pretty much planning a little bit of it.
So drunk bicycling is better than drunk driving? Oh well, maybe the drunk
bicycle rider will only hurt himself (in most cases, unless he ploughs into
pedestrians or he is the captain of a tandem).
Seriously John, biking with a couple of beers in your stomach is pretty dangerous.
One evening I had a couple of glasses of wine at home. Then I got bored and
decided to adjust my derailleurs. So after I was done, I decided to take the bike
for a slow spin in front of the house to check the front shifting.
Whamm! I kissed the pavement when I lost my balance on a slow turn. I think
drinking and biking home are pretty close to a suicide attempt.
--Armand
Philip G. Aaronson
>WRONG! Most of the depreciation occurs by age, not by milage. Look in the blue
>book, very little extra is given for low-mileage vehicles. In fact, low mileage
>may be bad in some cases, if it indicates infrequent use and short trips, all
>of which wear the engine and tranny very quickly.
So you're saying, when my shit-box dies I should
keep bike commuting. Then instead of tossing my
money down some import-depreciation-hole which
will become worthless EVEN if I don't use it, I
should buy the 1961 vet-o-my-dreams ...
What a GREAT idea! Boy, bike commuting is sounding
even better than I thought!
Lata,
Phil
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
| Phil Aaronson | email: aaro...@nas.nasa.gov |
| Junior Research Scientist | phone: (415) 604-4527 |
| NASA Ames Research Center | Get on the bike, ride the bike |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
"Get the word out ... We are here." - Woodside Officer, badge#517
Andy Nourse
>Living in the city is what *enables* you (and me, by the way) not to
>own a car. If you lived in the suburbs you -- or at any rate your
>household -- wouldn't be able to avoid it. And the use of your bicycle
>for utility and commuting trips would be more difficult, since trips
>are generally longer and delivery options (in grocery stores, for
>example) less abundant.
This is certainly true.
>Of course, once you own the car and accept the fixed costs of
>ownership, the marginal costs of a car trip will generally be less
>than the alternatives;
This is not necessarily true. The cheapest way for me to get into
San Francisco involves a combination of private motor vehicle (usually
a motorcycle) and rail. The nearest train station is 15 minutes away
by car or motorcycle, but would be about an hour and a half away by bicycle.
Driving to the train station and taking the train takes less time
than driving all the way in, if done at rush hour.
> moreover, suburban milieux cannot
>be well served by public transportation (too diffuse).
I don't know if this is true. It is true that most of them *are* not.
Of course, if suburban bus services were more open to letting bicycles
on the busses, it would help make up somewhat for a sparser transit
network. This would not be sufficient in itself, especially in colder
climates, but it would help.
>Urbanization is an indispensable part of the solution.
I hope not, because most people don't find living in cities acceptable
now, and it would be even worse if every city absorbed the population
of its surrounding suburbs. Even if you eliminated all automobiles
from such cities, they would still be extremely crowded. If you intend
to force everyone to live in cities, you are unlikely to find much
support for that position until things are well beyond the point of no
return.
It might be more effective to work on the perception that having a job
means having to show up at an office five days a week, since commuting
is so large a part of the problem. Urbanization doesn't necessarily
even solve the commuting problem, as can be seen by the number of
reverse-commuting San Francisco residents, and the number of couples
whose jobs are separated by many miles.
Steve Manifold
One of the stupidest things I have done is to ride my bike to the local
tavern to share a couple of pitchers with friends. (This was about 20
years ago). I was enjoying the ride home (kinda woozy, but in control,
to a certain extent) when I came to a stop sign. I came to a stop and
promptly fell on my side. Seems I had either forgotten to put my feet
down or didn't notice that I had stopped sooner than expected. Like I
said, I was woozy, so everything was still in motion even after I stop-
ped. Anyway, I was very lucky the side of my head didn't slam into the
curb (I don't remember even hearing about cycling helmets in those days).
I continued my journey a little more carefully, if not more soberly.
steve
--
____________________________________ _ ___________________________________
Steve Manifold _| ~-. University of Texas
eza...@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu \, *_} Center for Electromechanics
____________________________________ \/ ___________________________________
Dennis McCrohan
>financial argument is silly. The only case in which the financial
>argument might make sense is for people who don't own a car at all
>and go everywhere by bike.
AMEN, you just made my arguement much more succiently(sp?) and concisely.
-dm
Pete Hickey
>One of the stupidest things I have done is to ride my bike to the local
>tavern to share a couple of pitchers with friends. (This was about 20
>years ago). I was enjoying the ride home (kinda woozy, but in control,
>to a certain extent) when I came to a stop sign. I came to a stop and
>promptly fell on my side.
..........
While on this topic, anybody ever try their *unicycle* while having
had a bit too much? I didn't have to wait till I got to the stop
sign to fall over, I fell over before I even got on.....
--
Pete Hickey | Pe...@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "The sooner you fall
Communication Services | or (if desperate) | behind, the more time
University of Ottawa | pet...@uottawa.bitnet | you have to catch up."
Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5| (613) 564-7646 |
Anne Paulson
Living in the city is what *enables* you (and me, by the way) not to
own a car. If you lived in the suburbs you -- or at any rate your
household -- wouldn't be able to avoid it.
When I was living (alone) in Palo Alto, a suburb in Silicon Valley, I
was able to avoid owning a car. Since I didn't have a driver's
license, what would I have done with a car anyway? Now our suburban
household has a car, but I still don't drive it, and I manage just
fine grocery shopping, taking my son to school and to playdates, and
everything else, with just the bikes and the trailer. For twenty
years people have been telling me I "have to" have a car, and for
twenty years I have managed just fine without one.
-- Anne
Kevin Karplus
--
Kevin Karplus kar...@ce.ucsc.edu
Due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is
being turned off.
Keith F. Lynch
Jennifer R. Accettola <je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu> wrote:
> Just wondering if I am the only cyclist on the net who has never owned
> (and has no desire to own) a motor vehicle.
I'm another. I'm 36, I live in the suburbs, and I bike to and from
work, grocery stores, subway stations, movies, banks, friends' homes,
relatives' homes, hotels, parks, shopping malls, libraries, SF
conventions, military bases, airports, and blood drives.
I ride in rain, sun, snow, ice, wind, light, and dark. In temperatures
from below 0 to over 100. I've never owned a car and never had a
driver's license.
> I have even gone for four weeks without even riding in my boyfriend's
> van.
I routinely go months between *any* motorized transport. The last time
I was in a motor vehicle was when I was returning from overseas two
months ago.
I've only had one accident with a motor vehicle -- a van backed into me
in a parking lot. The driver paid for my new front wheel.
--
Keith Lynch, k...@access.digex.com
f p=2,3:2 s q=1 x "f f=3:2 q:f*f>p!'q s q=p#f" w:q p,?$x\8+1*8
Jennifer R. Accettola
>When I was living (alone) in Palo Alto, a suburb in Silicon Valley, I
>was able to avoid owning a car. Since I didn't have a driver's
>license, what would I have done with a car anyway? Now our suburban
>household has a car, but I still don't drive it, and I manage just
>fine grocery shopping, taking my son to school and to playdates, and
>everything else, with just the bikes and the trailer. For twenty
>years people have been telling me I "have to" have a car, and for
>twenty years I have managed just fine without one.
>-- Anne
>
This is the kind of input I was looking for! I am surprised how many
people on this newsgroup are continuing to defend their use of cars--
I wasn't even interested in that! I lived in a suburb of Cleveland for
many years and cycled everywhere. I have never owned a car-- if I lived
in a rural area I would still cycle. I even cycled in snow! People
are always telling me that I *should not* ride a bicycle. My usual
response is "Buy me a car, pay for the insurance, gas and maintenance
and I'll drive!" As far as cycling drunk goes-- perhaps the healthier
lifestyle that usually goes along with cycling necessarily precludes
driving or cycling drunk-- drink at home if you have to!
Ciao, Jenn
Mr. Nice Guy
Jennifer R. Accettola <je...@convex1.tcs.tulane.edu> wrote:
lines deleted
>
>This is the kind of input I was looking for! I am surprised how many
>people on this newsgroup are continuing to defend their use of cars--
>I wasn't even interested in that! I lived in a suburb of Cleveland for
>many years and cycled everywhere. I have never owned a car-- if I lived
>in a rural area I would still cycle. I even cycled in snow! People
>are always telling me that I *should not* ride a bicycle. My usual
>response is "Buy me a car, pay for the insurance, gas and maintenance
>and I'll drive!" As far as cycling drunk goes-- perhaps the healthier
>lifestyle that usually goes along with cycling necessarily precludes
>driving or cycling drunk-- drink at home if you have to!
The ability to live without a car or truck depends on what other
interests you have. I also build and fly model airplanes, like to shoot,
I have a shop and do some woodworking. I can't manage without a car.
The hobby shops tend to be on the outskirts of the Denver, I live in Boulder
and would take 2 to 3 hours by the bus, each way. Radio control
airplanes are somewhat large, 6 to 8 foot wingspans and net real easy to
carry on a bicycle.
If I want to go to the range for some shooting I don't even know if it is
legal to carry a cased pistol on the bus, or on a bicycle. I do know I
can locked in the trunk of my car.
If I need a sheet of plywood I can get it without waiting several days for
the delivery truck.
If you live a certain life and don't have other hobbies it is possible to
get along without a car. The rest of aren't so lucky.
--
Rod Anderson | "I do not think the United States government
rcan...@nyx.cs.du.edu | is responsible for the fact that a bunch of
| fanatics decided to kill themselves"
Clinton, Gore, gone in four | Slick Willie the Compassionate
Jym Dyer
> household -- wouldn't be able to avoid it.
=/= Not all suburbs are the same. I've managed to get by
without a car in a variety of suburban living situations.
> delivery options (in grocery stores, for example) [are]
> less abundant.
=\= Well, maybe someday somebody will invent a way for cyclists
to haul things. Maybe they'll call it a "cart" or something.
Or maybe I'm just a pie-in-the-sky visionary.
> Of course, once you own the car and accept the fixed costs of
> ownership, the marginal costs of a car trip will generally be
> less than the alternatives . . .
=/= "Accept the fixed costs of ownership?" In other words, go
ahead and continue to ignore the out-of-pocket expenses that
are less obvious. And go ahead and continue to ignore the even
more subtle (but no less costly) damage to the environment.
This is no win.
<_Jym_>
Don't :::: Jym Dyer ::: j...@remarque.berkeley.edu :::: ::::
Be A :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: __Q :::
Fossil ::::: Bumpersticker: "My other car is :::: ==`\<s ::
Fool :::::::::::::::::::::: also a bicycle." :::: (*)^ (*) ::
he...@qut.edu.au
the 12 km each way to work (sometimes bus). I do all my
shopping and most of my visiting of friends by bike.
Going out at night, when there is nowhere secure to
park a bike, I will walk or use public transport, and
occasionally a taxi if I have to. I reckon I can afford
a lot of taxis with the money I am saving by not having
a car. I live in an inner suburb (two and a half km
from the centre of Brisbane, a city of 1.2 million
people).
My wife and I used to go on holidays by public
transport also -- mostly to the coast, but other places
are possible. A nice trick was bus to a river, then
hire a boat and go up river to a national park and camp
for a week or so. Now we are separated I go cycling for
holidays: getting thare is half the fun.
I am 48, and do have a licence, but I expect
I will never own a car.
Take care
Ronno
James W Gregory
>The hobby shops tend to be on the outskirts of the Denver, I live in Boulder
>and would take 2 to 3 hours by the bus, each way. Radio control
>airplanes are somewhat large, 6 to 8 foot wingspans and net real easy to
>carry on a bicycle.
I don't think I'd have any trouble carrying this on my trailer. I'd
just turn your plane sideway so the wings were parallel with the
trailer bed. BTW, how does one carry something this big in a car?
I'd think you'd need a pickup truck.
>If I need a sheet of plywood I can get it without waiting several days for
>the delivery truck.
I carried home **3** sheets of 4'x8'x1/2" sheets of sheetrock last
Wednesday on my trailer with little difficulty. The only difficult
thing is getting over people staring at you all the time (but people
here don't stare at me anymore--they're used to seeing me haul stuff
like that :-) ).
DNAS...@esoc.bitnet
I think I only qualify on a technicality: I've never *owned* a car, but
I had the use of one for 7 months when I worked in London (in 1989/90).
This is the only time I've driven since getting a license. It was
basically a toy, as I lived near Southampton (about 90km away) and
commuted into the city by train. To make matters worse, the car
came with 'free petrol' which induced me to ride around the South of
England at the weekends, just for the hell of it, to see how much
petrol I could waste. Sure, I could have done some cycling at the
weekend, but the temptation to drive fast overrode any such consideration.
Now I'm in Darmstadt (with over 10000km on my bikes this year) I can look
back with horror and think how 'ungreenly' I (mis-)used that car.
However, I know myself too well, and I know how lazy I am. I know
that if I bought/had use of a car, I'd soon give up cycling for the
(sometimes invented?) convenience of driving. Even the insignificant
3.5km cycle into work would soon be a victim of car ownnership.
I've been in Darmstadt for 3 years, I've ridden most of the roads
within 25-30 of the city and just recently I've been thinking,
"wouldn't it be nice if I had a car so I could explore a bit
further afield...", at which point I remember the danger!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that (for me) driving is too much of
a temptation. The only way (for me) to avoid misuse is by not having one.
I admire those of you with more self-control.
Dave Nastaszczuk. Cray Systems @ ESOC, 64283 Darmstadt, Germany.
Mike Vandeman
>interests you have. I also build and fly model airplanes, like to shoot,
>I have a shop and do some woodworking. I can't manage without a car.
auto-dependent lifestyle. So don't say you "can't" manage without a car.
You COULD.
>The hobby shops tend to be on the outskirts of the Denver, I live in Boulder
>and would take 2 to 3 hours by the bus, each way. Radio control
>airplanes are somewhat large, 6 to 8 foot wingspans and net real easy to
>carry on a bicycle.
>
>If I want to go to the range for some shooting I don't even know if it is
>legal to carry a cased pistol on the bus, or on a bicycle. I do know I
>can locked in the trunk of my car.
>
>If I need a sheet of plywood I can get it without waiting several days for
>the delivery truck.
>
>If you live a certain life and don't have other hobbies it is possible to
>get along without a car. The rest of aren't so lucky.
I am so sorry. It was terrible of society to force you into that predicament.
Eric House
J. Smith) wrote:
> [I]sn't "cycling under the influence" [] against the law?
Probably, but I suspect that a drunk cyclist is less likely to hurt someone
else than a sober motorist. Anyone have statistics that can confirm or
deny
this suspicion?
--
**************************************************************************
Eric House "My employer doesn't share its opinions with
BMB in '94? me, so I can share only mine with you"
Jason O'Rourke
>Probably, but I suspect that a drunk cyclist is less likely to hurt someone
>else than a sober motorist. Anyone have statistics that can confirm or
You probably can't do too much damage, unless a car swerves to avoid hitting
you and crash and burns. Mostly the danger is to yourself.
6 weeks ago I was riding home after a midterm, having been up all night,
severe flu/head congestion, etc. One moment I was going along a minor
decline at ~20 mph. Then I must have blanked out for a sec. Now I see the
ground rushing towards me. And I have now banged up my shoulder, seriously
bruising some tendons, resulting in me learning how to play racquetball
lefthanded for the semester.
So, I wouldn't do it. Not for legal reasons, but for self preservation. I
also suspect that if you were involved in an accident with a motorist where
he was the one that blew it (ie, didn't yield to you pulling out or something),
that you would be deemed responsible because your response time was down.
Jason O'Rourke
bui tho xuan
>In article (Thomas J. Smith) wrote:
>> [I]sn't "cycling under the influence" [] against the law?
>Probably, but I suspect that a drunk cyclist is less likely to hurt someone
>else than a sober motorist. Anyone have statistics that can confirm or
>deny this suspicion?
Probably true enough. But it probably would ruin my day as a motorist
if I kill somebody on my way home, even if he were drunk.
tho
Michael Smith
>FROM: Jym Dyer <j...@remarque.berkeley.edu>
>
>> If you lived in the suburbs you -- or at any rate your
>
>=/= Not all suburbs are the same. I've managed to get by
>without a car in a variety of suburban living situations.
>> [....] once you own the car and accept the fixed costs of
>> ownership, the marginal costs of a car trip will generally be
>> less than the alternatives . . .
>
>=/= "Accept the fixed costs of ownership?" In other words, go
>ahead and continue to ignore the out-of-pocket expenses that
>are less obvious. And go ahead and continue to ignore the even
>more subtle (but no less costly) damage to the environment.
I certainly couldn't agree more with Jym Dyer's anti-car stance --
perhaps that wasn't obvious, since Jym seems to be replying to my post
as if I had been defending car ownership. Not so: I was making a rather
different point, namely that suburban living stacks the deck strongly
in favor of car ownership, and thus in favor of car use (since once you
own the car, each trip comes pretty cheap).
People like Jym, who are committed enough to buck the built-in forces
encouraging suburbanites to own and use cars, are quite rare. All honor
to them; but I think it is unrealistic to expect to base a wide social
transformation on the voluntaristic spread of this kind of commitment.
By contrast, consider the position of a Manhattanite like myself. It's
easier for me *not* to own a car than to own one. Jym's carlessness is
heroic and noteworthy, mine quite routine.
Large-scale shifts in living patterns are the result, generally speaking,
of lots of people taking the path of least resistance. That's how the
suburbs got built: people weren't frog-marched to Scarsdale at gunpoint
-- the incentives were simply structured so that it was easier to
leave, and you had to be a committed urbanite, or very rich, or very
poor, to stay. Reverse those incentives, and you'll find people moving back
into cities, and leaving their cars behind in suburban junkyards -- where
they belong.
Followups to alt.suburbs, I'd suggest.
--Michael Smith
Mr. Nice Guy
Mike Vandeman <mjv...@PacBell.COM> wrote:
>>If you live a certain life and don't have other hobbies it is possible to
>>get along without a car. The rest of aren't so lucky.
>
>I am so sorry. It was terrible of society to force you into that predicament.
It doesn't bother me a bit. I am glad that I have the option to drive or
bicycle depending on what I want to do. There are more important things
to my life that avoiding using a car.
I am not about to dedicate my life to hating car drivers and forcing every
one to bicycle, for the sake of their immortal souls of course.
allyn
read jeallousy. Yes. Those folks who are against bike commuting
are jealous of those who do it.
Mark