VooDoo Cycles BANNED from Mountain Bike Action
Andrew Chu
Breakaway Communications
96 S. Market St.
Suite 820
San Jose, CA 95113
MOUNTAIN BIKE ACTION PLACES MORATORIUM ON
VOODOO CYCLES ADVERTISING AND EDITORIAL
San Jose, CA
December 7,1995
In a rare move in the bicycle industry, VooDoo Cycles, pioneer of the
"value-priced customization" marketing concept, has been denied the
opportunity to place advertising or to appear in the editorial content of
Mountain Bike Action (MBA) magazine.
According to Daisy/Hi-Torque Publishing Company executive, Roland Hinz,
the VooDoo name apparently does not fit with the magazine's strict
religious values and will be summarily censored from product reviews as
well as paid space. Robb Mesecher, MBA's advertising manager, stated that
attempts to clarify the name and its positive Christian ties with
Mr. Hinz were unsuccessful.
"Obviously, a publisher has the right of refusal. But this amount of
discretion is unusual. The name does have little edge, but it it isn't
satanic. It's appropriate for a bicycle company focused on capturing the
spirit of adventure and the soul of good designs. Unfortunately, most of
what the average person knows about VooDoo comes only from misleading
use of it in horror movies and cheap paperbacks that emphasize zombies,
witch doctors and animal sacrifices." explains VooDoo marketing consultant
Dan Post.
"Actually, the clearest explanation is that voo means introspection and
doo means into the unknown. Translations from African and Haitian also
include the words mystery and spirit. VooDoo's roots are in nature and
natural forces. The lore and legend of VooDoo have long been a way for
people - especially slaves - to fight oppression and celebrate life.
It's about allowing oneself to take a rare journey and return unharmed.
In fact, it's my understanding tha VooDoo is a derivative of
Catholicism," says Post.
VooDoo intends to redistribute its MBA ad dollars among its other
regular campaigns appearing in Mountain Bike, Bike, MTB, Multisport,
Snowboard, Warp, and Velo News. The company is also launching a dealer
newletter called VooDoo Writes.
"We valued our presence in Mountain Bike Action, particularly for its
influential product reviews and European Distribution, but there are
certainly other media vehicles for realizing those same benefits," says
VooDoo general manager Gary Waterfield. "Our whole focus is on making
it easier for a knowledgeable off road enthusiast to own a bicycle
tailored specifically to individual needs - and to provide a superior
level of support to independent bicycle dealers. We're building an
interactive way to buy that allows freedom of choice, guaranteed
compatibility and significant savings."
VooDoo's unique sales approach enable a retail customer to choose
frame material, material composition, suspension fork, control components
and drivetrain that suit personal style, size and budget. VooDoo's
growing international dealer network now exceeds 300 locations.
Production facilities are located both domestically and overseas.
The California company recently moved from San Jose to Palo Alto.
New headquarters are:
VooDoo Cycles
Creamery Towers
900 High Street
Palo Alto, CA 94301
TEL: 800-495-7046 FAX:415-321-5955
-----End Press Release
Any comments may either be posted publicly on VooDoo's Conference Center
at http://www.VooDoo-Cycles.com, e-mailed to sup...@voodoo-cycles.com,
or by voice at 1-800-495-7046.
James Rodewald
wrote:
> It's not April 1st yet. You posted too soon.
This is, unfortunately, not a joke. I wrote a short news item on
this (may or may not appear--if it does it should be this
afternoon) for Outside Online. Nobody from Hi-Torque or MBA has
returned my calls. I started calling them for comment on Monday and
tried throughout the day Tuesday as well.
The local (Santa Fe, NM) VooDoo dealer has stopped carrying MBA and
put up a sign in the shop explaining why. I expect more shops to
follow. Aside from the intolerance, racism and ignorance that
president/publisher Roland Hinz is exhibiting for the world to see,
he is hurting the two groups most responsible for the success of
MBA--bike shops and consumers.
Hinz is obviously a man of convictions, but he is acting here out
of ignorance. Voodoo, the religion, is accepted by the Catholic
Church, has one God, its rituals are predominantly for healing, and
it has a long and important history in the countries where it's
practiced.
Is it legal to accept a company's money and advertising for a
period of time and then cancel it when nothing has changed? The ads
are the same, so far as I know there's been no changes in the
company that could account for this. It seems very irregular, but
I'm not a lawyer. I would be curious to hear if this falls under
restraint of trade regulations.
Oy, what a world.
James Rodewald, online editor, Outside magazine
http://www.starwave.com/outside/
Bill Eberhardt
>of ignorance. Voodoo, the religion, is accepted by the Catholic
>Church, has one God, its rituals are predominantly for healing, and
>it has a long and important history in the countries where it's
Just what countries are you talking about? The American Catholic Church
does not accept or aprove of voodoo. Since Mountain Bike Action is
published by an American company, why should they accept the practices of
any other country?
Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the industry
is willing to take a stand for possitive moral values. It's so much better
than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
magazines are promoting.
You can expect to see my subscription application within the week.
Now as for voodoo bikes, perhaps they would have better luck advertising in
a bike magazine from one of those voodoo practicing countries.
Personally, I find their adds to be very offensive.
Bill--
@ Bill & Kristi Eberhardt
/\, Colorado Springs, Colorado (Uphill both ways!)
~@ '\ (*) EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil
/\, X International Christian Cycling Club, Tandem Club of America
'\ / Colorado Tandem Club, Falcon Wanderers, High Plains Drifters
X This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy
(*) of the United States Air Force Academy or the United States government
tommyg
>According to Daisy/Hi-Torque Publishing Company executive, Roland Hinz,
>the VooDoo name apparently does not fit with the magazine's strict
>religious values and will be summarily censored from product reviews as
>well as paid space. Robb Mesecher, MBA's advertising manager, stated that
>attempts to clarify the name and its positive Christian ties with
>Mr. Hinz were unsuccessful.
=========================================================================
It's not April 1st yet. You posted too soon.
Tom
__________________________________
[ Thomas J. Golden ]
[ tgo...@cello.gina.calstate.edu ]
[(619)693-3042 ]
[__________________________________]
David Sumner
an...@netspin.com (Andrew Chu) wrote:
>Press Release
>Breakaway Communications
>96 S. Market St.
>Suite 820
>San Jose, CA 95113
>
>MOUNTAIN BIKE ACTION PLACES MORATORIUM ON
>VOODOO CYCLES ADVERTISING AND EDITORIAL
>
I quit doing business with anyony who uses their christianity as part of their
advertising. While I may believe christianity is the cause of a great deal of
the evil in this world, that is not the reason. Using it in their advertising
is, in essence, saying don't shop with them they aren't christians. This is
just another example of discrimination. Would MBA ban advertising of a company
called Christian Cycles. I think not, although as a religious term it is just
as offensive to some. Personaly, I don't think VooDoo Cycles uses the name as
in it's religious context anyway. They probably thought it just sounded "cool"
and used it.
The whole thing is pretty silly.
DDS
Bill Eberhardt
>Personaly, I don't think VooDoo Cycles uses the name as
>in it's religious context anyway. They probably thought it just sounded "cool"
>and used it.
It's obvious that voodoo cycles chose it's name for the shock value. They
figured that enough people would like a bike with an outragious name thet
they could get away with it. They KNEW that some people would be offended
by the name and now they are whining because someone like Hr. Hinz at
Mountain Bike Action has the guts to stand up and say so.
Bill Eberhardt
Benjamin W Reed
More minds destroyed by the Internet. Go to the fucking library before
you may assertions about religions that ain't your own.
Keep the rubber side down. Or don't.
ben
Daniel J. Schantz
>Hinz is obviously a man of convictions, but he is acting here out
>of ignorance. Voodoo, the religion, is accepted by the Catholic
>Church, has one God, its rituals are predominantly for healing, and
>it has a long and important history in the countries where it's
>practiced.
With all due respect, my understanding of Voodoo is that it is the worship of
Vundun -- a god who is not the one described by the Christian scriptures.
Whatever its other theology, practice, and history might be, it goes for
that reason alone clearly against even the most mildly conservative
Christianity.
I even know one Wiccan / aspiring Druid who is afraid to deal with Voodoo
because she see Vundun as too twisted.
peace,
dan.
Drew W Saunders
EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil writes:
>Just what countries are you talking about? The American Catholic Church
>does not accept or aprove of voodoo.
They don't accept or approve of a whole lot of things. I don't
know if Mr. Hinz was identified as a Catholic, or if someone was
incorrectly stating that Voodoo, the religion, is a form of
Catholicism. There are Catholic elements to Voodoo, but it is an
entirely different religion.
>Since Mountain Bike Action is
>published by an American company, why should they accept the practices of
>any other country?
What? Voodoo is a religion, how do geopolitical entities practice
religions? I thought it was people who practiced religions.
>Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the industry
>is willing to take a stand for positive moral values.
Where's the positive moral value in religious bigotry? He may not
agree with the religious teaching of Voodoo, and that is his
right, but why he should attribute the name of a company, VooDoo
Cycles, with the religion of Voodoo and then ban not only
advertising, which is his right as an editor, but all editorial
content, which is an extreme reaction based entirely on bigotry
and misunderstanding.
> It's so much better
>than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
>magazines are promoting.
It sells. Don't buy those magazines.
>You can expect to see my subscription application within the week.
Read the magazine first, you might find it to contain those "sex
in the woods" ads and editorial content that you don't want. This
isn't a Mountain-Biking version of "Pure, Ethical, Christian
Quarterly" by any stretch of the imagination. If the magazine was
known for a certain religious or ethical stand on previous ads or
editorial content, then this action would at least be consistent,
but it isn't, making this sound like an act based on ignorance of
the nature of the name of a bike company, or of the religion that
shares that name.
>Now as for voodoo bikes, perhaps they would have better luck advertising in
>a bike magazine from one of those voodoo practicing countries.
Strange, once again you are anthropomorphizing a geo-political
entity. Perhaps you mean advertise in a country where Voodoo is
practiced? Like the United States? They already do.
>Personally, I find their adds to be very offensive.
Then don't buy the bikes.
----------------------
Drew W. Saunders
Drew.S...@leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~dru
"In cyberspace, everyone can hear you whine."
richard taylor
: Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the industry
: is willing to take a stand for possitive moral values. It's so much better
: than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
: magazines are promoting.
: You can expect to see my subscription application within the week.
: Now as for voodoo bikes, perhaps they would have better luck advertising in
: a bike magazine from one of those voodoo practicing countries.
Yay, Christian Mountain bike valiues, go bigotry go go go.......
--
Richard Taylor, __o o __o __o
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK. `\<, \\_/\_, `\<,-`\<,
r...@hplb.hpl.hp.com O/ O O O O/----/ O
phone : +44 (0) 117 922 9545
fax : +44 (0) 117 922 8925
Bill Eberhardt
>Bill Eberhardt <EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil> writes:
> >It's obvious that voodoo cycles chose it's name for the shock value. ^^^^^
>What a crock o' crap! The only people who might be shocked at a
>bicycle labeled "voodoo" are hyper-christians.
>
>Tell you what: I'll be sure & let you know the next time I see some
>guy or gal riding a "voodoo" cycle carrying a courier bag full of live
>chickens...that'll give you something to *really* worry about!
Maybe they have models of other companies bicycles with little pins
sticking in them.
Now that we've given voodoo and Mountain Bike Action all this free
publicity, why don't we ask voodoo how they got their name. Perhaps they
thought the name sounded really cute and are totally ignorant of it's
meaning.
How about it, voodoo?
Bill--
bgeer
>dav...@community.net (David Sumner) wrote:
>>Personaly, I don't think VooDoo Cycles uses the name as
>>in it's religious context anyway. They probably thought it just sounded "cool"
>>and used it.
>It's obvious that voodoo cycles chose it's name for the shock value.
^^^^^
What a crock o' crap! The only people who might be shocked at a
bicycle labeled "voodoo" are hyper-christians.
Tell you what: I'll be sure & let you know the next time I see some
guy or gal riding a "voodoo" cycle carrying a courier bag full of live
chickens...that'll give you something to *really* worry about!
--
<> Robert Geer & Donna Tomky / * <>
<> bg...@xmission.com | _o * o * o <>
<> Salt Lake City, Utah | -\<, * <\ </L <>
<> U S A | O/ O __ /__, /> <>
Shari Bernhard
>Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the industry
>is willing to take a stand for possitive moral values. It's so much better
>than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
>magazines are promoting.
I suppose you feel that since I'm Jewish, MBA should be able to deny my
subscription. After all, I'm not Christian.
It's hard for me to understand why someone would believe that a company
banning this magazine from advertising or any mention at all because its
NAME referenced a religion they perceive as not consistent with Christian
values (aka "positive moral values" ala Newtie) is a Good Thing.
I can understand if they found out that Voodoo had unethical or illegal
hiring, manufacturing or marketing practices, but something as innocuous
as their name? How do you feel about Hispanics named Jesus? Does it
offend you?
I don't believe that retailers should be forced to deal with *everybody*
under *any* circumstances, e.g., if a drunk walked into an establishment
and was disturbing the peace, the management should be able to, and *is*
able to, remove the offending person from the premises. But if a perfectly
nice person was asked to leave because of their name, religion, color, or
gender, *that* where the line needs to be drawn.
>You can expect to see my subscription application within the week.
Enjoy.
>Personally, I find their adds to be very offensive.
Then you are free to turn the page and not buy their product.
>Bill--
> @ Bill & Kristi Eberhardt
> /\, X International Christian Cycling Club, Tandem Club of America
^^^^^^^^^ Hmmm.
/========================================================================\
|| Shari Bernhard *** Built for comfort, not for speed *** ~O~ ||
|| sh...@modcomp.com <_> ||
|| <|> ||
|| (Still waiting for my Darwinners decal...) | ||
\========================================================================/
Bill Eberhardt
or Murry bikes. I can't for the life of me understand why. They are very
popular bikes. Must be a lot of this bigotry going around.
Respectfully submitted with tongue in cheek,
Bill--
@ Bill & Kristi Eberhardt
/\, Colorado Springs, Colorado (Uphill both ways!)
~@ '\ (*) EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil
/\, X International Christian Cycling Club, Tandem Club of America
Mike Burdick
Bike Action".
If the add is offensive DO NOT read it, turn the page, no one is forcing
you to read it.
What I find offensive is someone trying to force their "possitive moral
values" to be my moral values.
Mike
In article <4anljv$a...@usafa2.usafa.af.mil>,
EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil says...
>Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the
industry
>is willing to take a stand for possitive moral values. It's so much
better
>than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
>magazines are promoting.
>
>You can expect to see my subscription application within the week.
>
>Now as for voodoo bikes, perhaps they would have better luck advertising
in
>a bike magazine from one of those voodoo practicing countries.
>
>Personally, I find their adds to be very offensive.
>
>Bill--
> @ Bill & Kristi Eberhardt
> /\, Colorado Springs, Colorado (Uphill both ways!)
> ~@ '\ (*) EberhardtWJ%S...@SC5130.usafa.af.mil
> /\, X International Christian Cycling Club, Tandem Club of America
>'\ / Colorado Tandem Club, Falcon Wanderers, High Plains Drifters
> X This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or
policy
>(*) of the United States Air Force Academy or the United States
government
>
>
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.
OWEN G EMRY
> Just what countries are you talking about? The American Catholic Church
> does not accept or aprove of voodoo.
Since when should I care what the American Catholic Church
thinks about voodoo? I'm not sure if you know it or not, but
the company in question isn't marketing a religion, but rather
custom bicycles. Has the separation of church and state
degraded to the point where there is no longer a visible separation
between church and *bicycle parts* ??!!?
> Since Mountain Bike Action is
> published by an American company, why should they accept the practices of
> any other country?
This is a revoltingly self-centered attitude. I'm ashamed of
this country and its occupants such as yourself who claim
"the U.S.A. is so perfectly wonderful a country that it can
justifiably ignore the rest of the world." Shame on you!
Of *course* they can refuse to publish anything they want.
They'll only hurt themselves and consumers, but [sarcasm on]
think of all the evil voodoo they'll prevent. [sarcasm off]
> Way to go Mr. Hinz! I'm always glad to hear when someone in the industry
> is willing to take a stand for possitive moral values. It's so much better
> than the "sex in the woods" type tabloid trash that some of the other
> magazines are promoting.
[religious drivel deleted]
Nevermind that we're on the subject of bicyling and censorship, here.
If you consider censorship to be "positive moral values", then I find
you to be much scarier than any voodoo.
By the way, to me, "positive moral values" includes keeping YOUR
morals *THE HELL* out of MY life.
> Personally, I find their adds to be very offensive.
Not surprising. Ultra-conservative Christian-types are often
offended by the real world.
Owen G. Emry
oge...@jmu.edu
Roger Marquis
>I can understand if they found out that Voodoo had unethical or illegal
>hiring, manufacturing or marketing practices, but something as innocuous
>as their name? How do you feel about Hispanics named Jesus? Does it
>offend you?
It's not just the name, voodoo has aquired a very negative reputation
thanks largely to their "spokesperson" Andrew Chu. From postings to
multiple inappropriate newsgroups, to the strictly negative quality of
every "Chu" post, mailbox spamming, posting private email... voodoo
clearly deserves their bad reputation.
Roger Marquis
MRFeathers
>figured that enough people would like a bike with an outragious name thet
>they could get away with it. They KNEW that some people would be
offended
>by the name and now they are whining because someone like Hr. Hinz at
>Mountain Bike Action has the guts to stand up and say so.
It's not obvious at all. The Voodoo people may have chosen their name for
lots of reasons but it itsn't clear at all that it's a deliberate attempt
to "shock" anyone. Your assumption seems to be that we all subscribe to
Christian beliefs, and Christian fears, which isn't so.
Mary
TIM...@news.delphi.com
to dinner with Satan. Jeez, let's get a grasp of reality! There are many
cultural references to the use of the word "voodoo" that have nothing to do
with a Caribbean spiritual practice. You know, like the song with the line
"that voodoo that you do so well."
MBA made a choice to accept no further advertising from a company, apparently
because they think the name may be offensive to some of their readers or
some of the editorial staff. If you don't like it, write them a letter and
tell them to cancel your subscription. Tell them you won't buy it at the
newsstand. Or, if you agree with their decision, write them and tell them
*that.*
As regards Mr. Owen Emry's statement:
"Not surprising. Ultra-conservative Christian-types are often
offended by the real world."
I have found that there is no one so intolerant of reality as a liberal
(and before you flame me on this, be advised that I am *way* liberal myself).
Blasting someone because you think their religious preferences are different
that yours really sucks. You, Mr. Emry, owe Mr. Eberhardt an apology.
Tim
TiDie
It seems that there is a beer made in Louisiana named "Voodoo
Lager". It features a label that has a picture of a swamp at night,
with a few glowing eyes of swamp critters in the shadows.
Well, a couple of state legislators saw this label and swore that
hey saw demons or devils or something. The fact that the name also
condoned satanic practice was unacceptable. Because of the
anti-Christian undertones of this horrible beer, its sale in Texas
was banned.
Now, the people in Louisiana got a little ticked off and banned the
sale of our own mediocre beer, "Lone Star"....maybe because the star
looked satanic....don't ask me. Anyway it took about 6 months for
everyone to come to grips with reality and kiss and make up.
My point is that the same people at MBA that banned VooDoo bikes
from advertising are the same people who won't let their kids dress
up as a clown on Halloween because it promoted satan-worshipping or
something.
Can't we all just get along....
James Rodewald
I'm not familiar with Andrew Chu. Are you sure he works at VooDoo?
The closest match I could come up with is Newton Chu at Sweet Parts
(does MBA accept ads from them? Kinda racy.) From my limited
dealings w/VooDoo and from everything I've heard from various bike
shops that sell VooDoo, they are a great company to work with. And
their concept (mix-and-match frame w/components) is one of the
smartest things anyone in the bike biz has done in a long time,
IMHO.
Also, all indications are that it WAS just the name that led MBA to
eliminate VooDoo from its pages.
Jimmy/Santa Fe
James Rodewald
James Rodewald
had a nationality, but I do know that after many years of trying to
eliminate Voodoo from Haiti, the Catholic church decided to accept
the religion, at least there. The two religions share some Saints,
are both monotheistic, and apparently the Catholic church decided
that it had a better chance in Haiti if it tried peaceful
coexistence.
Jimmy/Santa Fe
DEREK HODGE
Quoting from a VooDoo Cycles catalogue
Jim...@gnn.com (James Rodewald wrote:
JR+At VooDoo Cycles we believe a personal sense of magic can be
+activated by rediscovering the hidden entrance to that forgotten
+path. A mere quarter turn away in any direction lies that same
+world transformed into something extraordinary.
Maybe they got just banned for talking pretentious rubbish.
Derek Hodge (derek...@almac.co.uk)
* 1st 2.00 #5135 *
JIM PEPLOW
>I quit doing business with anyony who uses their christianity as part of their
>advertising. While I may believe christianity is the cause of a great deal of
>the evil in this world, that is not the reason. Using it in their advertising
>is, in essence, saying don't shop with them they aren't christians. This is
>just another example of discrimination.
Actually, it's just the opposite. Promoting Christianity in ones advertising is
not saying the other person is bad. It's simply saying the Christian advertiser
holds to a certain moral standard. This is not to say the other place may not
hold to that same standard. It is positive advertising, rather than negative
advertising.
\\\\////
| ~ ~ | ___________________________________________________________
{| o o |} / I had a thought once but I forgot what happened to it... \
| '' | / Oh yeah, now I remember... I think I posted it /
| <==> | \___________________________________________________________/
\ /
`--' jpe...@oavax.csuchico.edu
[].
James Rodewald
Sure, the name's got a little edge. But it's really about good
stuff.
The clearest explanation is that voo means "introspection" and doo
means "into the unknown." Voodoo's roots are in nature and natural
forces. It's about allowing oneself to take a rare journey and
return unharmed.
Believers say that voodoo has the power to shift a negative
pattern, add a ray of hope, capture some good fortune as it flies
over the web of time. Voodoo rituals are said to improve the inner
strength of the individual, and to defy illness. The force of
positive thinking is the great healer, The lore and legend of
voodoo have long been a way for people to fight oppression and
celebrate life.
At VooDoo Cycles we believe a personal sense of magic can be
activated by rediscovering the hidden entrance to that forgotten
path. A mere quarter turn away in any direction lies that same
world transformed into something extraordinary.
We invite you to journey into that world with us. This catalog is
your passport to the VooDoo experience. Turn the pages and enter
the forgotten path. Chose your own frame, fork and component kit to
form your own reality. It's that easy.
END QUOTED TEXT
Wow, pretty threatening stuff.
Jimmy/Santa Fe
Gerry Melino
In article <4b2ps1$g...@news2.delphi.com> TIM...@DELPHI.COM wrote:
>There are many
>cultural references to the use of the word "voodoo" that have nothing to do
>with a Caribbean spiritual practice. You know, like the song with the line
>"that voodoo that you do so well."
I may be mistaken, but I am sure that one of the USAF's fighters (or perhaps
missles) is nicknamed voodoo. I therefore vow not to purchase anything
produced by the Air Force in the future and, no matter how nicely they ask, I
will not join their insidious ranks.
Gerald Melino
"Gentles, do not reprehend:
If you pardon, we will mend."
Mark Hickey
> Can't we all just get along....
Indeed.
One minor biking magazine bans one product line for reasons which
may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
(we've only heard from Voodoo).
Now we have day after day of Christian bashing.
Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
tube decal was a swaztika.
Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
Or.... well you get the idea.
Would we have day after day of Jewish value bashing? Or African-
American bashing? I don't think so.
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
C.Berry
but I think I have a hold on it: Mountain Bike Action has banned Voo Doo
bike ads because of some alleged satanic content. I haven't seen the ads,
but I have two points anyway (this means, in typical american fashion, I
don't know what I'm talking about, but I'll yap nonetheless).
First, the linking between "voodoo" and satanism is a product of
american and white distorion. Voodoo, or more properly, Voudoun, comes
from Haiti. There is no satanism involved. It is a syncretic mix of west
African native religions - many of the names are the same - and Roman
Catholicism. The african part is animism, the belief that there is power
in everything: trees, ocean, rocks, etc. Greeks, Romans, Native
Americans, and just about every other group has similar belief - even
Christianity. Nothing Satanic. Read H. Courlander, _The Drum and the
Hoe_, University of California Press, Berkely. The book even contains lyrics
and music for dozens of Haitian songs.
Second, what does it matter what the ads say or suggest? As long
as violence is not promoted, who cares? If the tables were turned, and
the christians were in a position of weakness, you could be sure they
would be vocal about their ideas being marginalised, as if they aren't
vocal now. If I said I found those chrome fish on trunk lids offensive,
and required that they be removed, I would get in big trouble. However,
if I put up a Yin Yang, or a mandala, or a Buddha, or whatever on my car
now, I would get the dissapproving looks, or be denied access to
advertising in third rate magazines. This double standard for
stone-minded right wing christians (definitely little 'c')against
the rest of us is the big problem.
I say, be mellow, and ride your bike.
******************************************************
*Born Again Secular Humanist *
*Chris Berry *
*Camb...@ouray.cudenver.edu *
*WWW: http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~camberry/index.html *
******************************************************
A. Patrick Bailey
ones who can dictate which myth is more mythological than the next??
Patrick
A. Patrick Bailey
Eberhart...now, goshdarnit, where is that match??
Patrick
James Rodewald
wrote:
>One minor biking magazine bans one product line for reasons which
>may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
>(we've only heard from Voodoo).
I spoke to Richard Cunningham yesterday and he confirmed what
VooDoo says. Roland Hinz is very strict about his religion and
completely intolerant of anything that he feels doesn't meet his
standards. MBA has rejected ads with sexual content, and even
rejected a year's worth of Specialized ads because the ads
contained the word "bitchin'." Of course that is very different
than banning an entire company. And, of course, he has the right to
such a stand. Those who like that kind of inflexibility can praise
him all they like. The fact that in this case the action comes out
of ignorance seems to be all but ignored. Voodoo, the religion, is
not about evil or black magic. It's monotheistic, shares many
saints with Mr. Hinz's religion, something like 60% of Voodoo
rituals have to do with healing, and most importantly, VooDoo, the
bike company, explains in its catalog why they chose the name.
Nothing in the catalog indicates anything negative; quite the
contrary, it cites, among other things, the religion's importance
to those who practiced it while they were under the terrible yoke
of slavery.
>Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
>he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
>tube decal was a swaztika.
No need to imagine this kind of stupidity. No bike company would be
stupid enough to do as you say, and certainly there is NO
comparison between VooDoo and your example. Have you thought of the
slaves who were forced to undergo such unspeakable treatment at he
hands of their owners? Of of how important their religion was to
them? Of their descendents who live with that legacy? Of the
poverty most Haitians live in? And the for Mr. Hinz to say that
this religion is evil! His stand is clearly racist as well as
intolerant.
Of course the most important question, to my mind, is not if Mr.
Hinz is making a wrongheaded move out of ignorance--that is a
given--but whether or not, by accepting VooDoo's ads for two
months, and reviewing their bike, he can legally or ethically now
exclude them. Contrary to what you say about MBA being minor, it
has considerable clout in the marketplace. Furthermore, this is not
what journalism is about. If MBA choses to say that they don't like
the name VooDoo, and would like to say why in their review, fine.
Then the readers can decide. As it stands now he is denying them
one of the few supposedly objective forums (remember, MBA won;'t
review the bikes either) available.
OTOH, none of us is naive enough to believe that any of the mags
that make their bread and butter from reviewing product has much to
do with journalism, unfortunately.
Jimmy/Santa Fe
James Rodewald
do with journalism, unfortunately.
Jimmy/Santa Fe
James Rodewald, online editor, Outside magazine
http://www.starwave.com/outside/
Jeff Benz
God.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
__________________________ \ _ Hey!
Jeff Benz ) (*)_>\\ Watch out for that...
jb...@buffnet.net / -~__<\\O) ...dropoff.
Western NY Mtn Bike Assn |_______<__>___________________________
wny...@cycling.org & http://128.205.166.43/public/wnymba/wnymba.html
Kinert
Bob
Olivia H. Lee
Mark Hickey <emh...@email.mot.com> wrote:
>TiDie <y...@orgtx64.med.uth.tmc.edu> wrote:
>> Can't we all just get along....
>
>Indeed.
>may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
>(we've only heard from Voodoo).
>
>
>he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
>tube decal was a swaztika.
>
>KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
there is a big difference between hate-groups, ie Aryan Nation or the KKK,
and a reilgion that is pretty misunderstood. People who are saying this and
that about VooDoo and killing chickens are speaking from the kind of
ignorance that bespeaks ill of anyone, be they a Christian or mountain
biking magazine. My personal problem with MBA's actions is that they are using
Christianity to cover up their own bigotry/misunderstandings. As a Catholic,
I am just frustrated by the Christians all over the place proclaiming their
self-righteous, separtist attitudes. I grew up believing that Christians
try to be accepting of everyone, not putting down other religions for the
sake of preserving some kind of weird Christian separtist movement.
Now that I have said that on behalf of non-Pat Buchanan Christian right wingers
I can say that I really hope this thread dies soon. I just felt I had to say
this. Thanks for reading, and hopefully "listening".
Noah Iliinsky
Mark Hickey <emh...@email.mot.com> wrote:
>One minor biking magazine bans one product line for reasons which
>may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
>Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
>he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
>tube decal was a swaztika.
>Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
>KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
Your argument was made earlier in this thread and was wrong then too. The
difference is that the aryan nation and/or the kkk not only wouldn't
advertise in publications owned by jews or blacks, those philosophies do
not even tolerate the existance of jews or blacks (or gays or hispanics
or asians, or other types of christians or...)
As it was pointed out earlier in this thread, voodoo is not
anti-christian, and many who practise voodoo are also catholic. See the
difference here? In fact someone even said it "may or may not have
anything to do with Christian or moral values."
Cheers, Noah
--
nili...@reed.edu <- This address is always good. I use PGP.
Tom Beam
"C.Berry" <camb...@ouray.cudenver.edu> writes:
>
>american and white distorion. Voodoo, or more properly, Voudoun, comes
Oh goody. Now we can bring race into the picture and have a really
bitchin flamefest.
Why do some assholes feel this great need to charge as much shit as
possible to the issue of race? Grow up!
--
METALBAG
This .sig brought to you courtesy of METALBAG's work computer.
Now you know how much I'm fucking off while making money.
Garbage truck driver of the informationsuperhighway.
"Never trust someone who can bleed for five days and not die".
onee...@hooked.net
Marshall Pahl
(Mark Hickey) wrote:
> Now we have day after day of Christian bashing.
>
> Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
> he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
> tube decal was a swaztika.
>
> Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
> KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
>
Well...there's one hell of a diferance between voodoo and nazis...the
voodoo religion was not a bad thing at all...mostly warship of nature
(despite what you may see from watching indiana jones), voodoo's "magic"
was not bad AT ALL in their eyes, you could use magic to hurt someone but
you would also get the same thing...it was used to do good to
others...nazi's however were the MOST intolerant hateful people the world
has ever seen take power....and in my eyes...theres no difference between
the kkk and the nazis...
--
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Ulf Becker
>may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
>
>
>Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
>he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
>tube decal was a swaztika.
>
>Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
>KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
>
>
>American bashing? I don't think so.
>
>Mark Hickey
>Habanero Cycles
My interpretation of the posts is that they are bashing MBAs lame attempt to invoke "Christian
values" as an excuse for banning VooDoo. Furthermore, your poat implys that advertising which
includes blatantly hateful messages is similar to advertising from a company Called "VooDoo".
This is equally lame.
--
Ulf Becker
ube...@idir.net
__O
='\<,
(*)/(*)
Mark Hickey
> In article <emh008-1912...@199.3.160.82>, emh...@email.mot.com
> (Mark Hickey) wrote:
>
>
> > Now we have day after day of Christian bashing.
> >
> > Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
> > he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
> > tube decal was a swaztika.
> >
> > Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
> > KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
> >
> Well...there's one hell of a diferance between voodoo and nazis...the
> voodoo religion was not a bad thing at all...mostly warship of nature
> (despite what you may see from watching indiana jones), voodoo's "magic"
> was not bad AT ALL in their eyes, you could use magic to hurt someone but
> you would also get the same thing...it was used to do good to
> others...nazi's however were the MOST intolerant hateful people the world
> has ever seen take power....and in my eyes...theres no difference between
> the kkk and the nazis...
Of course. I didn't mean to infer "equal" status to any of the groups,
but to illustrate a situation where the "rejecting editor" is anything
but a Christian, to try and illustrate that the ones screaming the
loudest about the unjust perceptions of one religion (voodoo) were
the first to cast generalizations and slurs at another (Christianity).
Makes no sense to me.....
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Mark Hickey
> Mark Hickey <emh...@email.mot.com> wrote:
> >TiDie <y...@orgtx64.med.uth.tmc.edu> wrote:
> >> Can't we all just get along....
> >
> >Indeed.
> >One minor biking magazine bans one product line for reasons which
> >may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
> >(we've only heard from Voodoo).
> >
> >Now we have day after day of Christian bashing.
> >
> >Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
> >he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
> >tube decal was a swaztika.
> >
> >Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
> >KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
>
> there is a big difference between hate-groups, ie Aryan Nation or the KKK,
> and a reilgion that is pretty misunderstood. People who are saying this and
> that about VooDoo and killing chickens are speaking from the kind of
> ignorance that bespeaks ill of anyone, be they a Christian or mountain
> biking magazine.
Probably. I personally know nuthin' about voodoo. Keep in mind *any*
religeon can be a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
Same with *any* political or social movement.
> My personal problem with MBA's actions is that they are using
> Christianity to cover up their own bigotry/misunderstandings. As a Catholic,
> I am just frustrated by the Christians all over the place proclaiming their
> self-righteous, separtist attitudes. I grew up believing that Christians
> try to be accepting of everyone, not putting down other religions for the
> sake of preserving some kind of weird Christian separtist movement.
> Now that I have said that on behalf of non-Pat Buchanan Christian right
wingers
> I can say that I really hope this thread dies soon. I just felt I had to say
> this. Thanks for reading, and hopefully "listening".
Fine, but what does that have to do with MBA or voodoo? And
I should say that the vast majority of Christians I know *are* accepting
of everyone, and aren't part of any "separtist" movement that I'm aware
of.... If I know one <Jew><Catholic><Muslim><Atheist> who is a bigot,
should I post at length about how <Jews><Catholics><Muslims><Atheists>
are pond scum? I don't think so..... Let's not use generalizations
and misconceptions about *any* one religeon (which is after all what
the majority of posts are accusing MBA of doing!)
Wanna talk bikes?
Mark (off my soapbox now) Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Scott Steves
1. "Christian bashing?" I've read a lot of bashing of intolerance,
close-mindedness and hypocritical posing and posturing masquerading as
Christianity. I haven't read any bashing of Christians who weren't first
separated from Christianity as a whole as bein "close-minded christians, with a
little 'c'," or that didn't question the christianity of the MBA editorial
decision outright.
2.The KKK, Nazi's and other fascists are openly and violently opposed to
whatever position is not their own (e.g., Judaism).
On the other hand, the VooDoo bike company thinks it's a cool name, and a great
ad. campaign, which it is. Do you recognize the difference of orientation and
scale?
You did some pretty brainless whining, and got lots of reasonable, balanced and
I think overly considerate responses. Must be your lucky day it was such a
love-fest out there. Now say "thank you" and go try that lame sh*t on
alt.tasteless.
------------
Scott Steves Evil dances
Sole Technical Writer, to a Bossa-
TCSI - San Jose, Ca Nova beat!!!
sco...@tcs.com - The Tick
Gerry Melino
In article <4b839v$2...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Kinert wrote:
>Some people take themselves, and life a bit to seriously!
>
Yes, but it does provide a source of entertainment for winter bound cyclists.
d...@telerama.lm.com
> I just picked up this thread, and the beginning is off my server,
> as violence is not promoted, who cares? If the tables were turned, and
> the christians were in a position of weakness, you could be sure they
> would be vocal about their ideas being marginalised, as if they aren't
> vocal now. If I said I found those chrome fish on trunk lids offensive,
> and required that they be removed, I would get in big trouble. However,
> if I put up a Yin Yang, or a mandala, or a Buddha, or whatever on my car
> now, I would get the dissapproving looks, or be denied access to
> advertising in third rate magazines. This double standard for
> stone-minded right wing christians (definitely little 'c')against
> the rest of us is the big problem.
>>>>
religious scenes in public buildings during the Christmas season
because if they don't promote
violence, who cares. If you do believe the removal of such
symbols is correct because they are public buildings how can you
whine about a magazine that is privately owned. It's his magazine
he can do what he wants with it.
Dave Saunders
John Bowling
internet, and many (not all) feel that everyone must do as they demand, I
feel all of the feedback against them is normally justified.
The group of christian right wing fundamentalists (and I don't mean a group
as in all part of one denomination, but a few here and a few there) who do
this are just as bad as the kkk, the nazis, etc. They do engage in
actions which are just as hatefull as these groups.
Because of that, they give a bad name to all Christians, and they keep
many people from agreeing with any of the concepts of Christianity,
including me.
The freedom of religion in the USA must also, by default, include
freedom FROM religion.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Bowling |Apple II GS can whip the pants off its little
joh...@primenet.com |brother (Mac) any time!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Hickey
> Three responses for Mark Hickey (good name!) not that he deserves them:
> 1. "Christian bashing?" I've read a lot of bashing of intolerance,
> close-mindedness and hypocritical posing and posturing masquerading as
> Christianity. I haven't read any bashing of Christians who weren't first
> separated from Christianity as a whole as bein "close-minded christians,
with a
> little 'c'," or that didn't question the christianity of the MBA editorial
> decision outright.
I certainly don't have any problems at bashing individuals, be they
Christians, Nazis, Republicans, or Democrats. The postings I was refering
to seemed to be generalizations to me... maybe that wasn't always the intent.
The main point I was trying to make with my "Arian Bike" and "KKK Bike"
examples is that the same wording used in conjunction with "Jewish" or "African
American" (or any other group) would be considered highly improper. Oughta be
the same for *every* group, IMHO.
> 2.The KKK, Nazi's and other fascists are openly and violently opposed to
> whatever position is not their own (e.g., Judaism).
> On the other hand, the VooDoo bike company thinks it's a cool name, and
a great
> ad. campaign, which it is. Do you recognize the difference of orientation and
> scale?
Sure. I wasn't talking about the "bike companies" doing anything other
than using
names and symbols objectionable to some other group. I didn't even say the ads
said anything objectionable. I could have used a little more subtle examples,
I suppose, but the basic premise I was illustrating is just as valid.
> You did some pretty brainless whining, and got lots of reasonable,
balanced and
> I think overly considerate responses. Must be your lucky day it was such a
> love-fest out there. Now say "thank you" and go try that lame sh*t on
> alt.tasteless.
Sorry if the discussion was a bit too civil. I guess the readers in this group
have used up all their nastiness and abruptness during the great never-ending
helmet war. What a shame. Or maybe this is how it's supposed to work... a
couple alternative viewpoints being voiced without backstabbing or belittlement.
What a concept! Happy Holidays!
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Shari Bernhard
>mp...@neca.com (Marshall Pahl) wrote:
>> others...nazi's however were the MOST intolerant hateful people the world
>> has ever seen take power....and in my eyes...theres no difference between
>> the kkk and the nazis...
>Of course. I didn't mean to infer "equal" status to any of the groups,
>but to illustrate a situation where the "rejecting editor" is anything
>but a Christian, to try and illustrate that the ones screaming the
>loudest about the unjust perceptions of one religion (voodoo) were
>the first to cast generalizations and slurs at another (Christianity).
>Makes no sense to me.....
>Mark Hickey
>Habanero Cycles
I follow what you were trying to say, but using examples with the KKK and
Nazis is a bit extreme and subject to misunderstanding, I think. It would
be a better illustration to say that a Jewish editor refused to put an ad
that included the little fish symbol you see displayed by certain Christian
sects in his magazine. Even as a Jew, that would really bug me, and I'd
be just as disgusted with that editors attitude.
It's refreshing that you can take the same "side", such as it is, as Bill
Eberhard (? I think that was it) who knows someone who wouldn't buy a
Habanero because the name was "too hot" for her tastes! Her loss; I've
seen your Ti Habanero (in Mt. Dora during the Emeralda Metric; Jeff and I
took your number, but you probably don't remember...), and it is one *fine*
looking bike. I'd have said it was cool, but then again, someone else might
think it looks hot! (You say po-tay-to, and I say po-tah-to...)
(BTW, hitting 'r' to reply to your posts via email doesn't work.)
/========================================================================\
|| Shari Bernhard *** Built for comfort, not for speed *** ~O~ ||
|| sh...@modcomp.com <_> ||
|| <|> ||
|| | ||
\========================================================================/
Andrew Chu
However, this mean spirited, vidictiveness tone in his postings has
set a new level of outrageousness. Almost every other reply that I have
received on this issue has been positive and constructive. The views
of the people on the net are very important to VooDoo, who use this
information to judge their actions.
I don't know why this person continues to harass me, but it almost feels
like I'm being stalked. I sure wish he would stop being so crummy. If you
feel that my statements have been inappropriate, then let me know.
regards,
Andrew Chu
an...@netspin.com
In article <4avffm$c...@alba.roble.com>,
mar...@roble.com (Roger Marquis) wrote:
>
>It's not just the name, voodoo has aquired a very negative reputation
>thanks largely to their "spokesperson" Andrew Chu. From postings to
>multiple inappropriate newsgroups, to the strictly negative quality of
>every "Chu" post, mailbox spamming, posting private email... voodoo
>clearly deserves their bad reputation.
>
>Roger Marquis
Nelson David Ho
>One minor biking magazine bans one product line for reasons which
>may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
>(we've only heard from Voodoo).
>Now we have day after day of Christian bashing.
>Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
>he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
>tube decal was a swaztika.
>Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
>KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
>Or.... well you get the idea.
>Would we have day after day of Jewish value bashing? Or African-
>American bashing? I don't think so.
>Mark Hickey
>Habanero Cycles
Why do you seem to stand on the defensive side of these racist
groups???
I understand the logic. However, the burning cross and the swaztika
signify racism, and hatred. Unlike voodoo, they are not misunderstood
symbols with misunderstood causes. They are clear on what they stand
for and what they believe in...hatred without a cause. With 5.5
billion people inhabiting, reproducing, and destroying this planet at
an exponential rate, there is just no room for hatred. Not anymore.
This ban only serve to increase tension and strife among people of
different religions and cultures. Have we not seen enough battles and
deaths because of religious differences throughout history? Of
course, this isn't going to start a 'war', but it's the principle that
matters.
Peace.
Nelson
@@*
~@ @*\*@
\__ /\_ *\\|*/*
\ \ *@*\@*@*@@
~\,______(*)/(*)______/~\, \||/
~\__ ||
Mongoose/Manitou/Ritchey ~~\._____________________[]___________
Mark Hickey
> emh...@email.mot.com (Mark Hickey) writes:
> I follow what you were trying to say, but using examples with the KKK and
> Nazis is a bit extreme and subject to misunderstanding, I think. It would
> be a better illustration to say that a Jewish editor refused to put an ad
> that included the little fish symbol you see displayed by certain Christian
> sects in his magazine. Even as a Jew, that would really bug me, and I'd
> be just as disgusted with that editors attitude.
The best example would probably lie between the two.... I just couldn't
think of any more appropriate that would be understandable to the majority
of readers of the r.b. groups.
> It's refreshing that you can take the same "side", such as it is, as Bill
> Eberhard (? I think that was it) who knows someone who wouldn't buy a
> Habanero because the name was "too hot" for her tastes! Her loss; I've
> seen your Ti Habanero (in Mt. Dora during the Emeralda Metric; Jeff and I
> took your number, but you probably don't remember...), and it is one *fine*
> looking bike. I'd have said it was cool, but then again, someone else might
> think it looks hot! (You say po-tay-to, and I say po-tah-to...)
You spell tomato, I spell tomatoe.....
> (BTW, hitting 'r' to reply to your posts via email doesn't work.)
Ooops. I just realized that when I installed a new version of the
mail reader, it reverted to an old setup file with a bad address. I
shudder to think of all the unreceived mail..... yeesh. Thanks for
the warning!
BTW, I'm pretty sure I do remember you from one of the early rest
stops.... the one where the guy with the Hooker pulled up? (That
doesn't sound right, does it?)
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
Mark Hickey
> emh...@email.mot.com (Mark Hickey) wrote:
> >Imagine for a minute that MBA's owner was named Stein, and that
> >he banned advertizement for the Arian Bike Company, whose head
> >tube decal was a swaztika.
>
> >Or if the editor was African-American and banned ads from the
> >KKK Bike Company, whose headtube badge was a burning cross.
>
> >Or.... well you get the idea.
>
> >Would we have day after day of Jewish value bashing? Or African-
> >American bashing? I don't think so.
>
> >Mark Hickey
> >Habanero Cycles
>
> Why do you seem to stand on the defensive side of these racist
> groups???
Wrong. Not even close. Uh uh. Nope. I don't. I detest racism or
any other form of discrimination (which is how I got sucked into this
thread in the first place). This includes racism or unfair generalizations
against all groups, including Christians. I don't think a group has to have
a minority status to deserve the same considerations given any other group.
I honestly can't see how you got this impression from what I wrote....
> I understand the logic. However, the burning cross and the swaztika
> signify racism, and hatred. Unlike voodoo, they are not misunderstood
> symbols with misunderstood causes. They are clear on what they stand
> for and what they believe in...hatred without a cause. With 5.5
> billion people inhabiting, reproducing, and destroying this planet at
> an exponential rate, there is just no room for hatred. Not anymore.
>
> This ban only serve to increase tension and strife among people of
> different religions and cultures. Have we not seen enough battles and
> deaths because of religious differences throughout history? Of
> course, this isn't going to start a 'war', but it's the principle that
> matters.
>
> Peace.
Nelson,
Actually, I pretty much agree with you. My examples were a bit extreme,
but I couldn't think of any others that would be obvious to a vast
majority of the readers of the r.b. groups.
I agree that the Nazis and the KKK are quite removed from voodoo in terms
of impact and hate-mongering (although my total lack of knowledge of
voodoo as a religion keeps me from making any real comparisons). I just
was using an example where a name or symbology would be objectionable to a
group other than whatever particular religion or value system Mr. Hinz (?)
subscribes to.
Because of my lack of knowledge (whether real or perceived) about voodoo,
it's hard for me to make a judgement about the MBA ban, and what may have
prompted MBA to make the decision they did. I just have to assume that
something about the voodoo religion is objectionable to them, based on
their value system. Whether it's valid or not may be questionable - but I
guess if the examples I stated would be considered "valid" reasons to
reject advertising, so should MBA's - otherwise it would become an endless
excercize in splitting hairs. To
put it another way, either any publisher should be able to reject material for
moral / ethical reasons, or they shouldn't. If my examples are cases of
valid rejections, I think we have to assume there could be others. The
alternative is that we all become "ethics police", which I can say *I'm* not
trained for....
Have some happy holidays of whatever flavor, everyone! :-)
Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
d...@telerama.lm.com
>
>
> This ban only serve to increase tension and strife among people of
> different religions and cultures. Have we not seen enough battles and
> deaths because of religious differences throughout history? Of
> course, this isn't going to start a 'war', but it's the principle that
> matters.
>
>
calling the bike Catholic or Jewish cycles. Why would the ban
on the adds offend someone who practices Voo Doo or increase
religious tension? How can you be so sure that people who
practice Voo Doo like a bicycle company naming
their company after their religion? All of this whining about
a magazine pulling a ad is nothing more than hypocrisy. You
people preach tolerance and togetherness and the first chance
you get to take a shot a people of a different faith you jump on it.
If stereotyping a group of people is wrong then it's wrong for
everyone. That includes you precious caretakers of the world.
Dave Saunders
Charles Mingus
I don't know what the big deal is MBA has not been worth reading for quite
a while now!
-tim
My best advice to anyone who wants to raise a Tim Stritmater
happy, mentally healthy child is: Keep him or t...@zappa.j51.com
her as far away from a church as you can -Frank Zappa min...@j51.com
MRFeathers
>Maybe they got just banned for talking pretentious rubbish.
Uh huh. Then explain why there are ANY ads left in ANY magazines? Ever
read one that wasn't pretentious rubbish?
Mary
Mary or Ron Featherston
Victoria, MN
Kristan Roberge
>
> Shari Bernhard (sh...@modcomp.com) wrote:
> >I can understand if they found out that Voodoo had unethical or illegal
> >hiring, manufacturing or marketing practices, but something as innocuous
> >as their name? How do you feel about Hispanics named Jesus? Does it
> >offend you?
>
> It's not just the name, voodoo has aquired a very negative reputation
> thanks largely to their "spokesperson" Andrew Chu. From postings to
> multiple inappropriate newsgroups, to the strictly negative quality of
> every "Chu" post, mailbox spamming, posting private email... voodoo
> clearly deserves their bad reputation.
>
really too bad since Voodoo Cycles is owned by Joe Murray (former
Norba national champion and chief designed for various companies
including Kona (past) and Titec (current).
Kristan Roberge
>
> TiDie <y...@orgtx64.med.uth.tmc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Can't we all just get along....
>
> Indeed.
>
> may or may not have anything to do with Christian or moral values
> (we've only heard from Voodoo).
>
Don't forget Mountain Biking magazine and the Maccaw Tire ads...
Which weren't shocking to me in the least... ANYONE remember the
infamous camelbak girls of the early 90's and the associated camelbak
ads with topless girls in cycling shorts and oakleys (seen from the back
or back and side - so that you COULD tell that they were very nicely
shaped girls) wearing camelbak's drinking system? I don't remember
there being such a politcally correct backlash then! Where did all
the PC, righteous, "my morals are better than your morals" people
come from and what are they doing in 'our' industry?!? Mountain biking
has always been about being politically INCORRECT.
Chris Neary
> Where did all the PC, righteous, "my morals are better than your morals" people
>come from and what are they doing in 'our' industry?!? Mountain biking
>has always been about being politically INCORRECT.
Actually, aside from environmental issues, mountain biking is
apolitical. I know people from both sides of the political spectrum
who ride offroad. Look hard enough and you'll probably find skinhead
mountain bikers.
I'll bet these "PC, righteous, 'my morals are better than your morals'
people" have been in "your" industry all along.
My advice is to persuade them to your point of view through
intelligent arguments rather than simply condemning them and wishing
they would just go away.
<<Followups trimmed>>
Cheers,
==============================================================
Chris Neary
dia...@aimnet.com
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because,
if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason,
than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
==============================================================
han that of blind-folded fear.
Mikkel Andreasen
>Don't forget Mountain Biking magazine and the Maccaw Tire ads...
>
>Which weren't shocking to me in the least... ANYONE remember the
>infamous camelbak girls of the early 90's and the associated camelbak
>ads with topless girls in cycling shorts and oakleys (seen from the back
>or back and side - so that you COULD tell that they were very nicely
>shaped girls) wearing camelbak's drinking system? I don't remember
>the PC, righteous, "my morals are better than your morals" people
>come from and what are they doing in 'our' industry?!? Mountain biking
>has always been about being politically INCORRECT.
Or how about the Pro-Flex ad which featured Henrik Djernis naked (sitting
sideways). I mean who actually cares, and if you do care, turn the bloody
page over!!!
Chill Mike Andreasen
Petri Havanto
> Because of my lack of knowledge (whether real or perceived) about voodoo,
> it's hard for me to make a judgement about the MBA ban, and what may have
> prompted MBA to make the decision they did. I just have to assume that
Well, myu ignorance on voodoo as religion is most probably as great as
anybodys, but I think I have got an impression of the values of MBA...
> something about the voodoo religion is objectionable to them, based on
> their value system. Whether it's valid or not may be questionable - but I
> guess if the examples I stated would be considered "valid" reasons to
> reject advertising, so should MBA's - otherwise it would become an endless
> excercize in splitting hairs. To
> put it another way, either any publisher should be able to reject material for
> moral / ethical reasons, or they shouldn't. If my examples are cases of
> valid rejections, I think we have to assume there could be others. The
> alternative is that we all become "ethics police", which I can say *I'm* not
> trained for....
I'm not trained to be an ethics police either but I do still 'vote with my
money'. I have never particularly liked MBA but after a move like this
I must say I like it even less. Actually I don't like any biking rag,
I prefer riding instead. Oh, well... unough rambling...
Happy New Year, anyway...
Just ride it,
Petri
Douglas R. Brooks
not the bicycles see _Mama Lola: A Voodoo Priestess of Brooklyn_
by Karen McCarthy Brown (Oxford U. Press). Also,
Brown's articles in _The Encyclopedia of Religion_, ed.
by Mircea Eliade (MacMillian) or entries in the
new Harper's Dictionary of Religion, ed. by J.Z. Smith
and W.S.Green (Harper Collins). These works
should be available in better libraries.
They are among the most readable and accurate scholarly accounts
available, tracing Voodoo from its African roots into
Haiti and its subsequent development in
relationship to Roman Catholicism.
Best to know what one is banning, or
talking about, no? I wonder if these
MBA publishers have a clue.
Just being what I am, a University Religion Professor,
Douglas Brooks
Department of Religion and Classics,
University of Rochester
Rochester, NY
James M. Reed (AA)
VooDoo IS Titec (or part of it) and neither is owned by Joe Murray
James
SBW