RIP RAAM Fred #1
Ryan Cousineau
noticed the sad, strange news that Jure Robic was killed Sept. 24 in a
car/bike crash while training in his hometown in Slovenia:
http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/raam.php?N_webcat_id=1
He won the solo class again this year, of course. In other odd RAAM
news nobody else likely cares about, the "Solo Enduro" category ("RAAM
sane": solo, but you have to take 40 hours of rest breaks) is already
gone, presumably due to lack of interest.
I have pretty negative feelings about the RAAM Solo event ("RAAM
stupid") but he was its reigning master, and considering how much
entertainment RAAM created here in rbr ("Cyclingnews stupid"), I
thought you'd want to know.
And with respectful condolences out of this way, here's a hilarious
excerpt from the RAAM FAQ:
How Much Sleep Do RAAM Racers Get?
Sleep management is one of the biggest challenges of RAAM. This
applies to everyone including racers, crew, and race staff. The
challenge for racers is balancing the need for sleep, which means time
off the bike, against continuing to move down the road. This is
critical because the clock doesn’t stop, even for sleeping. The solos
at the front of the race sleep as little as 90 minutes a day. Just to
finish within the 12 day time limit, racers can't afford to sleep more
than about 4 hours a day at the most.
[...]
Some racers do hallucinate and this can make for some entertaining
stories. Racers can be entirely awake and lucid and still hallucinate,
or they can be so tired that reality shifts. Officials and crew are
constantly paying attention to a racer's condition and to safety.
Safety is the top priority and officials and crews will stop a racer
or crew for a sleep break if they feel a racer is past the safety
margin of sleep.
Kurgan Gringioni
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d4c2160-3ee0-4ef4...@c28g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
:: And with respectful condolences out of this way, here's a hilarious
:: excerpt from the RAAM FAQ:
::
:: How Much Sleep Do RAAM Racers Get?
<snip>
Dumbass -
The best ones don't get any. They take breaks to load up on methamphetamine.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
raamman
wrote:
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
go fuck yourself goof; don't expect any respectful expression when it
happens to you
raamman
> I was looking up RAAM's front page for facebook-griefing purposes, and
> noticed the sad, strange news that Jure Robic was killed Sept. 24 in a
> car/bike crash while training in his hometown in Slovenia:
tragic, sad news; perhaps more for his son who did not have much time
to know his father and now never will, and for the fact that for
robics obsession the family income was very low, so now they would be
left virtually penniless
Steve Freides
I wonder if anyone has tried to train sleep deprivation, e.g., gradually
lengthening their work day past 24 hours, or doing something like
alternating a week of only a few hours sleep with a week of unrestricted
sleep. I imagine - and it's only a guess - that one could become at
least somewhat acclimated to this, but I really don't know.
-S-
Fredmaster of Brainerd
There is a ton of research on sleep deprivation and
circadian rhythms, motivated by shift workers, the military,
airline pilots, doctor/nurse shifts and on-call performance,
and so on.
I'm not familiar with most of the research but I'm not sure
you can acclimatize to a lack of sleep. The effects of lack
of sleep are cumulative, of course, but not clear that there
is any adaptive response analogous to the way your muscles
or cardio system adapt to training. I think you can adapt to
shift work schedules, but that presumes actually sleeping
each day.
There are mitigation strategies such as "power-napping,"
but those won't get you through a week without sleep.
Amphetamines, on the other hand, are established to work -
at reducing fatigue during a long shift, at least in the military-
pilot
setting. I don't know if they have studied how many times
in a row one can take advantage of this before fatigue sets in.
One hopes that the military usually lets the pilots eventually get
enough sleep before they hallucinate and drive F-15s into
oncoming traffic. On the other hand, they do operate on the
principle of acceptable losses.
Should note that Robic's fatal accident doesn't appear to have
anything to do with sleep deprivation, from the reports just
operator error and a blind curve.
Fredmaster Ben
Ryan Cousineau
I assume that serious RAAMers do "train" for sleep deprivation if only
to mentally prepare for the effects.
Isolation experiments have demonstrated that the natural body clock
will do things like lengthen out to 36-hour "days," but that's with a
proportionate amount of the "day" still devoted to sleep.
"Somewhat acclimated" is probably right, and the Wikipedia article on
sleep deprivation is interesting throughout:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Impairment_of_ability
Solo RAAM is a pretty bizarre event. "Some racers do hallucinate and
this can make for some entertaining stories." Entertaining? Really?
Hallucinating while riding on public roads? It would be even less
funny if they were driving a car, but at least the risk to non-
participants is pretty low.
Indeed, given the hazards of the World Sleep-Deprivation-on-a-Bike
Championships, I'm a little surprised there haven't been more
accidents. I daresay the high DNF rate tells a tale.
T. Miller
>
> - Show quoted text -
Item #5 is a place to start
http://www.cracked.com/article/127_5-ways-to-hack-your-brain-into-awesomeness/
T. Miller
> I was looking up RAAM's front page for facebook-griefing purposes, and
> noticed the sad, strange news that Jure Robic was killed Sept. 24 in a
> car/bike crash while training in his hometown in Slovenia:
>
> http://www.raceacrossamerica.org/raam/raam.php?N_webcat_id=1
>
Damn, that's too bad. I hope there's some justice in Slovenia for him
and his family
Vagina Gorilla
Kramer did on Seinfeld episode - it didn't work out too well.
Ken Prager
"Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
>
> I wonder if anyone has tried to train sleep deprivation, e.g., gradually
> lengthening their work day past 24 hours, or doing something like
> alternating a week of only a few hours sleep with a week of unrestricted
> sleep. I imagine - and it's only a guess - that one could become at
> least somewhat acclimated to this, but I really don't know.
Kramer tried this on an episode of Seinfeld once. Result was hilarious,
as you would expect.
KP
A. Dumas
> Should note that Robic's fatal accident doesn't appear to have
> anything to do with sleep deprivation, from the reports just
> operator error and a blind curve.
From the photo in the local paper it looks as though the car was on the
wrong side of the road, on the outside of the turn. Impossible to tell
for sure from just one shot, of course. http://www.delo.si/clanek/122746
Vagina Gorilla
> In article <8gk2rpFud...@mid.individual.net>,
Maybe you could mention Kramer again?
cicero venatio
> I was looking up RAAM's front page for facebook-griefing purposes, and
> noticed the sad, strange news that Jure Robic was killed Sept. 24 in a
> car/bike crash while training in his hometown in Slovenia:
This is the saddest news in cycling that I can ever remember. Wear a
black arm band the next time you're out.
cicero venatio
> There are mitigation strategies such as "power-napping,"
> but those won't get you through a week without sleep.
>
> Amphetamines, on the other hand, are established to work -
> at reducing fatigue during a long shift, at least in the military-
> pilot
> setting. I don't know if they have studied how many times
> in a row one can take advantage of this before fatigue sets in.
> One hopes that the military usually lets the pilots eventually get
> enough sleep before they hallucinate and drive F-15s into
> oncoming traffic. On the other hand, they do operate on the
> principle of acceptable losses.
>
> Should note that Robic's fatal accident doesn't appear to have
> anything to do with sleep deprivation, from the reports just
> operator error and a blind curve.
>
> Fredmaster Ben
>
Falling asleep while riding is quite common, it's just like when you are
in a car. The solution is the same as in a car, a cat nap that can be
as short as 15 minutes will fix the problem.
Michael Press
<743295e4-d5fb-4e03...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
Because it is all about managing with too little sleep
and little to do with bicycling RAAM is a freak show to
me; and I do not watch freak shows. I would pay
attention if all riders had to spend 8 hours in 24 off
the bike. The rule could be different for the final
push to the finish line.
--
Michael Press
RicodJour
>
> I wonder if anyone has tried to train sleep deprivation, e.g., gradually
> lengthening their work day past 24 hours, or doing something like
> alternating a week of only a few hours sleep with a week of unrestricted
> sleep. I imagine - and it's only a guess - that one could become at
> least somewhat acclimated to this, but I really don't know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep
I engage in Leonardo sleep when I have a project due and I'm under a
crunch...too bad I'm not Leonardo. Sigh.
R
Steve Freides
I wrote:
>> I wonder if anyone has tried to train sleep deprivation, e.g.,
>> gradually lengthening their work day past 24 hours, or doing
>> something like alternating a week of only a few hours sleep with a
>> week of unrestricted sleep. I imagine - and it's only a guess - that
>> one could become at least somewhat acclimated to this, but I really
>> don't know.
>>
>> -S-
>
> I assume that serious RAAMers do "train" for sleep deprivation if only
> to mentally prepare for the effects.
I'm not so sure - nor am I suggesting it's an effective strategy, but I
haven't heard about it being done at all.
> Isolation experiments have demonstrated that the natural body clock
> will do things like lengthen out to 36-hour "days," but that's with a
> proportionate amount of the "day" still devoted to sleep.
>
> "Somewhat acclimated" is probably right, and the Wikipedia article on
> sleep deprivation is interesting throughout:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_deprivation#Impairment_of_ability
That article still doesn't mention what I have in mind. If you'll allow
an example of another body system, eating and insulin response. Most
people who eat several times per day feel lousy if they miss a meal,
even lousier if they miss two in a single day. But there are thousand
of people who practice one form or another of intermittent fasting,
e.g., there's a program that recommends, for purposes of weight loss
primarily, a 24-hour fast done twice a week.
Further, there are people - the Bragg family, about whom I know because
I read a book by one of them - routinely eat nothing but slightly
flavored water for three days at a time, sometimes even as long a week
or more.
So, what I'm asking is if one could, e.g., try something like staying up
for 24 hours, twice a week, and eventually adapt to it, to the point
where, like a short bike ride can be training for a longer one, those
24-hour awake episodes become "normal" enough that going for a bit
longer wouldn't be nearly as difficult as it otherwise might be.
If anyone is aware of such a thing having been tried and/or studies, I'd
love to know about it.
No, I'm not planning on doing RAAM - I abhor participating endurance
events, but I am curious about this since the not eating often thing is
actually what I do almost every day and it works great for me. I eat
only one meal per day at dinner - the rest of the day I might have just
water, coffee and/or tea, and maybe a 100 calorie chewie bar at 4 PM or
something along those lines if I'm feeling hungry. Google "Warrior
Diet" or "Eat Stop Eat" or "Intermittent Fasting" to read more about
this approach to eating.
> Solo RAAM is a pretty bizarre event. "Some racers do hallucinate and
> this can make for some entertaining stories." Entertaining? Really?
> Hallucinating while riding on public roads? It would be even less
> funny if they were driving a car, but at least the risk to non-
> participants is pretty low.
>
> Indeed, given the hazards of the World Sleep-Deprivation-on-a-Bike
> Championships, I'm a little surprised there haven't been more
> accidents. I daresay the high DNF rate tells a tale.
Yes, I agree it's a weird event, but so is Paris-Brest-Paris, and so are
a lot of other, similar events involving bicycles.
-S-
Kurgan Gringioni
"raamman" <raa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:55aaeb4f-35e0-4b4a...@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
You're taking this all wrong. If I was riding my bike 23 hours/day, I'd be
on meth too.
Ryan Cousineau
I don't have very much interest in PBP (and even less in doing it as a
sleep-deprivation race; note that the 90-hour time cut allows a rider
to take 24 hours rest and only average 18 km/h on the bike), but it's
much less crazy than RAAM solo, and I don't know of many other raw
sleep-deprivation races, arguably excepting the various 600-1200 km
super-randos around the world.
Beloved Fred No. 1
> I engage in Leonardo sleep when I have a project due and I'm under a
> crunch...too bad I'm not Leonardo. Sigh.
Perhaps one day you could be:
<http://www.leonardoporntube.com/>
Steven Bornfeld
Most authorities recommend smaller, more frequent meals. This is for
health, not performance. Obviously if you are fasting, a lot depends
upon your level of activity.
If you are fasting and active, you train your body to use fat. Long
ago, when endurance athletes started carbo loading, I tried it before I
planned to do my first century ride. At this point you did this by
carbohydrate depletion for several days while staying active, and then
carbo loaded before your event. This was not fun. It's also not safe
for anyone with abnormal glucose tolerance. So yes, you can demonstrate
how fasting coupled with long-steady endurance training will "teach" the
muscles to burn more fat, esp. when the glycogen is gone.
I doubt very much that sleep is understood anywhere near as well as
carbohydrate or fat metabolism. But besides the obvious safety risks of
enforced sleep deprivation, I've never heard of sleep deprivation being
something you can "train".
Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's more like trying to train your body
to do better tolerating dehydration. I don't think that works either.
Steve
Steve Freides
The same thing could be said about running shoes - a highly technical
shoe that protects the foot is, at least 10 years ago, what most experts
were recommending. Fortunately, barefoot running is making a comeback.
Our insulin response system is absolutely trainable, and for one's
health, one ought to train it.
> Obviously if you are fasting, a lot depends
> upon your level of activity.
>
> If you are fasting and active, you train your body to use fat. Long
> ago, when endurance athletes started carbo loading, I tried it before
> I planned to do my first century ride. At this point you did this by
> carbohydrate depletion for several days while staying active, and then
> carbo loaded before your event. This was not fun. It's also not safe
> for anyone with abnormal glucose tolerance. So yes, you can
> demonstrate how fasting coupled with long-steady endurance training
> will "teach" the muscles to burn more fat, esp. when the glycogen is
> gone.
What I do, and the many, many others who practice some form of what I
call cyclic eating do, isn't carb loading or anything like that. I have
learned to embrace eating what I need, not what I want, and learning to
need less. I look at it very much like weight lifting - if you put 300
lbs. in front of me before I started weight lifting and asked me to pick
it up, either the weight wouldn't move, I'd have ended up in the
hospital, or both. But now, it's no problem, and practicing it keeps me
strong. Same thing with intermittent fasting and its various
permutations.
> I doubt very much that sleep is understood anywhere near as well as
> carbohydrate or fat metabolism. But besides the obvious safety risks
> of enforced sleep deprivation, I've never heard of sleep deprivation
> being something you can "train".
>
> Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's more like trying to train your body
> to do better tolerating dehydration. I don't think that works either.
I don't know about dehyrdration - the mind is such an important of any
physical performance, and we certainly can get used to functioning in a
state of less than perfect hydration, but whether or not we physically
adapt in some way isn't something I know anything about. Ditto sleep
deprivation, but I am curious, which is why I think it ought to be
studied. The food thing has been well studied, but no one like to talk
about it because it doesn't serve anyone's financial interests. In
animal studies, alternating periods of 24 hours of no food with 24 hour
periods of unlimited caloric intake resulted in more muscle and less
fat. I humbly offer myself as but one example of this working in human
beings, too.
I highly recommend the book "Consistent Winning" which talks about the
cyclic nature of human beings.
-S-
Fredmaster of Brainerd
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
> > I doubt very much that sleep is understood anywhere near as well as
> > carbohydrate or fat metabolism. But besides the obvious safety risks
> > of enforced sleep deprivation, I've never heard of sleep deprivation
> > being something you can "train".
>
> > Maybe I'm wrong. But I think it's more like trying to train your body
> > to do better tolerating dehydration. I don't think that works either.
>
> I don't know about dehyrdration - the mind is such an important of any
> physical performance, and we certainly can get used to functioning in a
> state of less than perfect hydration, but whether or not we physically
> adapt in some way isn't something I know anything about. Ditto sleep
> deprivation, but I am curious, which is why I think it ought to be
> studied. The food thing has been well studied, but no one like to talk
> about it because it doesn't serve anyone's financial interests. In
> animal studies, alternating periods of 24 hours of no food with 24 hour
> periods of unlimited caloric intake resulted in more muscle and less
> fat. I humbly offer myself as but one example of this working in human
> beings, too.
>
> I highly recommend the book "Consistent Winning" which talks about the
> cyclic nature of human beings.
Dumbass,
Sleep is not easily analogous to eating or even drinking.
People can go for several days without eating. It just
makes you hungry. Going several days without water
is dangerous to your health but survivable. Going
several days without sleep requires extreme measures
(according to wikipedia, the record w/o sleep for a normal
person without a sleep-inhibiting disease is 11 days). There
is a known disease (fatal familial insomnia) that causes
its sufferers to become unable to sleep. It kills them.
So far as I know, there aren't really physical adaptations
to lack of sleep as there are to, say, repeated physical
exertion, which is one reason I think it's not like
training by riding a bike or lifting weights or whatever.
There "training" is a process of adaptation that has
been measured.
BTW, I don't agree with a general statement that one
needs to train the body's insulin response for health
reasons. It may be good for your personal health and
diet. But there is a lot of variability among people, and in
general in nutrition, there's no evidence that people
generally need to do anything other than eat how they
have naturally been eating for thousands of years.
There is a problem, which is that the modern world
offers easy availability of food calories in a way that
we never had before, and that can do things like
affect insulin response. One response to this is to
alter eating patterns, but in general, eating a healthy
diet should avoid problems for most people.
Fredmaster Ben
RicodJour
>
> In animal studies, alternating periods of 24 hours of no food with 24 hour
> periods of unlimited caloric intake resulted in more muscle and less
> fat. I humbly offer myself as but one example of this working in human
> beings, too.
I eat every day. I don't avoid fat, I don't avoid carbs, I don't
avoid any farkin thing I want to eat. My body fat hovers between 7.5
and 8 percent. What am I doing wrong?
R
Steve Freides
Dumbbass,
Nothing.
-S-
Steve Freides
> Dumbass,
>
> Sleep is not easily analogous to eating or even drinking.
I didn't say it was, I asked the question because I'd like to know more.
> People can go for several days without eating. It just
> makes you hungry. Going several days without water
> is dangerous to your health but survivable. Going
> several days without sleep requires extreme measures
> (according to wikipedia, the record w/o sleep for a normal
> person without a sleep-inhibiting disease is 11 days). There
> is a known disease (fatal familial insomnia) that causes
> its sufferers to become unable to sleep. It kills them.
>
> So far as I know, there aren't really physical adaptations
> to lack of sleep as there are to, say, repeated physical
> exertion, which is one reason I think it's not like
> training by riding a bike or lifting weights or whatever.
> There "training" is a process of adaptation that has
> been measured.
So far as I know, there aren't really physical adaptations to lack of
sleep, either, but again, that's why I asked. I have yet to hear of
anyone trying to gradually work into being able to stay up for longer
periods of time, again why I asked.
> BTW, I don't agree with a general statement that one
> needs to train the body's insulin response for health
> reasons. It may be good for your personal health and
> diet. But there is a lot of variability among people, and in
> general in nutrition, there's no evidence that people
> generally need to do anything other than eat how they
> have naturally been eating for thousands of years.
Thousands of years ago, let's say before agriculture, likely we ate only
when we caught or found something to eat, and very unlikely that this
happened with great regularity.
> There is a problem, which is that the modern world
> offers easy availability of food calories in a way that
> we never had before, and that can do things like
> affect insulin response.
Yes. When I say we need to train our insulin response, that's just
another way of saying we need _not_ to take advantage of the "easy
availability of food" the way most folks with such ready availability
do. I don't think we differ on the problem, although perhaps on the
solution.
> One response to this is to
> alter eating patterns, but in general, eating a healthy
> diet should avoid problems for most people.
If, by "a healthy diet," you mean avoding crap and eating as unprocessed
foods as is possible, then yes, I agree that's a big improvement, but
the schedule matters, too. Each separately helps, each separately might
help enough for some people some of the time, but both together are the
big win/win, IMHO.
I feel better eating on the plan I follow - that's why I do it. I used
to feel practically a prisoner to the need for frequent feedings and
felt lousy when I didn't eat. If this didn't work for me, I wouldn't
have been doing it for the last five years - or more - I've lost count,
might be close to ten by now.
-S-
RicodJour
>
> I feel better eating on the plan I follow - that's why I do it. I used
> to feel practically a prisoner to the need for frequent feedings and
> felt lousy when I didn't eat. If this didn't work for me, I wouldn't
> have been doing it for the last five years - or more - I've lost count,
> might be close to ten by now.
It seems to be affecting your sense of time. ;)
R