Titanium as a frame material
OccasionalFlyer
team's bikes described, they are made of carbon fiber. What happened
to Titanium? I know there are Titanium bikes but no pro team seesm to
use them. I thought that Titanium was able to be light, stiff, and
dampen road vibration well. Shouldn't that make for a good frame?
Ryan Cousineau
Yes. But CF is lighter and/or stiffer. It allows for easy molding into
complex shapes, too, which is useful in the aero-frame era we live in.
There's also more subtle tricks you can pull with CF that are best
summarized as the move from using CF as "black aluminum" (look up that
phrase) to specifically CF-oriented shapes and layups. CF is also
getting cheaper and cheaper as the Chinese and Taiwanese continue to
refine and commoditize the stuff, and not just for bike frames.
Ti is still a great frame material, arguably the best metal to build
with, except for the material cost and certain difficulties in
machining and welding. Mark Hickey, once a regular contributor to
rec.bicycles.tech, now sanely offline, has an active business building
mid-range Ti frames, both off-the-rack and bespoke, at Habanero
Cycles.
In the low end of the market, aluminum is an excellent performer that
can do most of what Ti can, only very cheaply and easily.
Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.
Ben Trovato
Titanium is too durable and too expensive to work into eye-catching
shapes.
William R. Mattil
>
> Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.
Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?
Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
an attraction actually.
Bill
--
William R. Mattil
thirty-six
Only for the user. Full titanium frames are too tough for
satisfactory commercial growth. With mass production the ex-works
cost to the manufacturer of a carbon/plastic frame will eventually be
below that of any reasonable steel frame. There's no point to
manufacturers promoting or investing in titanium frames when the raw
materials and processing costs are escalating.
If you are requiring a frameset, are certain of your sizing
requirement and fancy titanium, I'd say get one while you still can.
Fred Flintstein
> On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
>>
>> Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.
>
>
> Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?
>
>
> Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
> an attraction actually.
>
>
> Bill
You can't use steel in automated production without compromising
weight or reliability. That's why they've all but disappeared
from shops.
My experiences with steel bikes.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/316fb1b1e615f180
There is plenty wrong with steel. I realize this is a religious
issue, so I won't pursue it.
F
--D-y
wrote:
> On 8/22/2011 12:35 PM, William R. Mattil wrote:
>
> > On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> >> Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.
>
> > Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?
>
> > Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
> > an attraction actually.
> You can't use steel in automated production without compromising
> weight or reliability. That's why they've all but disappeared
> from shops.
>
> My experiences with steel bikes.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/316fb1b1e615f180
>
> There is plenty wrong with steel. I realize this is a religious
> issue, so I won't pursue it.
"Snobs don't like steel"? Wow. Call them "connoisseurs" then <g>.
Custom sizing, fancy paint, high-end $$$pensive steel frames are being
offered by many builders. There is a "steel is real" mythology
regarding ride quality, "steel" builders' magical abilities, whatever.
That said, I have an early 90's Tommasini Prestige SLX that mostly
sits but is a revelation every time I take it out. Rides great, but it
is heavy <g>. It is blue with yellow accents and always gets
compliments, both on appearance and the "I had one of those, rode
great" variety.
Some custom makers also build in Ti. If you don't paint Ti, the paint
get chipped and fall off, and "matte" finishes can be maintained
easily-- supposedly. I haven't seen the need with my Litespeed
Catalyst that I've been riding for about four years now. No muss, no
fuss, and no rust! Great for an everyday bike that can take ordinary
use without degradation (meaning missing paint, rust/corrosion, gel
coat infringement, etc.). Rides fine,too. Plain-vanilla geometry
yields a somewhat plain-vanilla ride that has no negative factors
IMHO; I have managed a couple of serious bacon-saving maneuvers on
that bike that taught me to have confidence in it.
Lots of steel bikes broke. Lots of Ti bikes have broken, and lots of
Cf bikes have broken, too (see "early Kestrels"). All of them can be
repaired, very much including cf.
Looks like there's gonna be life After Carbon, too. Zylon?
Thermoplastics? Whatever...
Meanwhile, there's bamboo:
<http://www.calfeedesign.com/products/bamboo/>
Wow, good old bamboo!-- and now, flax!
<http://inhabitat.com/worlds-first-flax-fiber-bicycle-wins-eurobike-
gold-award/>
Ride what you like, don't worry about the rest!
--D-y
Brad Anders
Biggest problem with Ti is that if you build a frame correctly with
it, it's almost impossible to destroy in an accident, never wears out,
so you're stuck with it. I'm still riding my Litespeed from 1994,
which has been updated with current wheels and components. It's about
1 lb heavier than the typical CF bike my friends are riding. Could it
be stiffer? I guess so, but it handles fine and I don't do sprinting
any more. New bikes look pretty nice, but why spend the money if you
don't have to.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Titanium is more difficult to form into a
recognizable shape for brand identity. If this
is a consideration, then you should probably seek
another frame material.
IME people who really care what their bike is made out
of, are also the people for whom it is unlikely to matter.
There are exceptions, like if you are really large or
an engineer who happens to ride a *lot*.
Fredmaster Ben
thirty-six
wrote:
Ah, you forget the phsychological bashing that goes on at the start
line when competitors are eyeing each other and their bikes up.
Subtleties of bike fit, saddle comfort and well built steel spoked
wheels are hard to put across but a large lump of plastic frame is
hard to miss. I can still climb faster over a short steep climb than
the crabon fibre kids. My bike and belly is perhaps twice the weight
of theirs. They try to make power before they can cycle.
OccasionalFlyer
don't have an ax to grind over Titanium, steel, aluminuim, or Carbon
fiber. I'm looking to move up to a better bike than the Trek 2100 I
bought twenty years ago. I like it but just once I'd like better
comjponentry, etc. I was thinking Titanium, like a Litespeed, but
Carbon fiber seems to be the material of choice for almost anything
I've seen above $2500.00. I was thinking that Titanium would give me
the best ride but now I'm rethinking that. I'm not getting it for
racing. I was never any good at that. I am more concerned with a
really nice-handling, higher-end bike for regular riding I do. My
2100 has spoiled me for anything less. Now I'm looking at a Cervelo
R3 Rival, in case anyone has any comments. I'm assuming that a good
racing bike will allow for a comfortable ride, as opposed to a Tri-
kike. Thanks.
Ken
Randall
> On Aug 21, 10:07 pm, OccasionalFlyer <javaje...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
the CF seat tube to the contour of the wheel. The composites industry
still has yet to solve the durability issue. This is one reason why I
refuse to buy a CF frame unless it has a lifetime warranty and or a
crash replacement policy. I am still surprised that consumers are
willing to ride such delicate products.
thirty-six
Think more on the lines of the sizing and geometry of the frame.
Whether the frame can accept the size of tyre (and mudguards) you
require. Whether the frame can accept and has the clearance for
luggage racks. Are the cranks the correct length for you, are the
handlebars and brake levers comfortable. Is the saddle suitable. All
are more important than actual materials used. As a rule, stay with
what you are comfortable with, see if there are improvements to be
made in the wheels. Many lack the stability required for hard riding.
Steve Freides
> Thanks for all the response. I wasn't trying to start a feud, and I
> don't have an ax to grind over Titanium, steel, aluminuim, or Carbon
> fiber. I'm looking to move up to a better bike than the Trek 2100 I
> bought twenty years ago. I like it but just once I'd like better
> comjponentry, etc. I was thinking Titanium, like a Litespeed, but
> Carbon fiber seems to be the material of choice for almost anything
> I've seen above $2500.00.
-snip-
The manufacturers engage in weight-weenie contests with each other, and
whatever other contests they can concoct in order to make their product
seem superior.
My guideline is one told to me by my brother-in-law a couple of decades
ago - he said to get the bike that, when you think about it sitting in
the garage, makes you want to get out and ride. I think it's really
that simple. At the end of the day, having a little more fiber in your
diet will make more difference to your performance than anything
different between the various bikes you're looking at that could be
attributed to frame material.
Go ride some bikes and buy the one you like riding the best, regardless
of what it's made of and, within reason, regardless of what it weighs,
too. Or if you don't like any of them better than your current bike,
then upgrade your components and stick with your current frame.
Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
-S-
thirty-six
> OccasionalFlyer wrote:
> > Thanks for all the response. I wasn't trying to start a feud, and I
> > don't have an ax to grind over Titanium, steel, aluminuim, or Carbon
> > fiber. I'm looking to move up to a better bike than the Trek 2100 I
> > bought twenty years ago. I like it but just once I'd like better
> > comjponentry, etc. I was thinking Titanium, like a Litespeed, but
> > Carbon fiber seems to be the material of choice for almost anything
> > I've seen above $2500.00.
>
> -snip-
>
> The manufacturers engage in weight-weenie contests with each other, and
> whatever other contests they can concoct in order to make their product
> seem superior.
>
> My guideline is one told to me by my brother-in-law a couple of decades
> ago - he said to get the bike that, when you think about it sitting in
> the garage, makes you want to get out and ride. I think it's really
> that simple. At the end of the day, having a little more fiber in your
> diet will make more difference to your performance than anything
> different between the various bikes you're looking at that could be
> attributed to frame material.
Onion power.
>
> Go ride some bikes and buy the one you like riding the best, regardless
> of what it's made of and, within reason, regardless of what it weighs,
> too. Or if you don't like any of them better than your current bike,
> then upgrade your components and stick with your current frame.
A professional gambler should preferably take a safe bet than risk for
high returns.
OccasionalFlyer
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry, luggage rack? I want to buy a high-performance racing bike
(even if I don't have the knees for it) to go out riding with no
specific destination, not a touring bike or commuter bike. That's the
job of my MTB with street tires.. I'd never leave a high-level racing
bike anywhere like outside my office, or even Starbucks, so I'm not
looking for something with that sort of feature.
thirty-six
That's in the engine and wheels.
> (even if I don't have the knees for it) to go out riding with no
> specific destination, not a touring bike or commuter bike. That's the
> job of my MTB with street tires.. I'd never leave a high-level racing
> bike anywhere like outside my office, or even Starbucks, so I'm not
> looking for something with that sort of feature.
Try taking a picnic in your jersey pockets. I've tried carrying a
wine bottle on a pure racer, I had to use a toestrp to hold it tight
in the bottle cage while my water bottle went in my pocket to squash
the pastries. A bag is useful and the higher any weight is the more
the bike behaves well. Much of a bikes handling is a feature of the
handler's techniques and expectations. Touring bikes can be as fast
as any racer. They are only touring when you are. A racing bike
generally excludes the features required for touring but the touring
bike can also sport skinny treads and low handlebars. Adding an inch
or two to the wheelbase is not going to prevent high speed turns.
With time you should realise that the image of a sporting bike does
not give the user anywhere near the same pleasure as the function
available on a bilke with a little bit of tyre clearance.
Jim Feeley
> Sorry, luggage rack? I want to buy a high-performance racing bike
> (even if I don't have the knees for it) to go out riding with no
> specific destination, not a touring bike or commuter bike. That's the
> job of my MTB with street tires.. I'd never leave a high-level racing
> bike anywhere like outside my office, or even Starbucks, so I'm not
> looking for something with that sort of feature.
Check out aluminum. The Cannondale aluminum racing frames are pretty
comfortable, at least compared to the SP steel frames of the past. And
they're pretty responsive and inexpensive. So more money's left over for
parts, esp wheels. I'm currently riding an aluminum Cannondale with
Ultegra and Mavic Elite wheels...rides great and I have money left over
to pay for the kids' colleges.
Or look at the newish category of "performance" bikes with slightly
longer wheelbases like the Specialized Roubaix. I think of them as being
fairly fredly, but some have eyelets for racks, and seem to ride pretty
well. I think these bikes are similar to what were once categorized as
century bikes by some here in the states.
Or get a cyclocross bike. You get a comfortable ride, sometimes eyelets,
something good enough for fast club rides, and endless style. And hipster
cred, if that's important to you.
Well, that's what I think.
Jim
--
Jim
Jim Feeley
POV Media
Ryan Cousineau
wrote:
> On 8/22/2011 11:47 AM, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
>
>
> > Steel bicycle frames now have no known purpose.
>
> Other than propel a rider down the road you mean ?
>
> Nothing wrong with steel. Except that the snobs won't like it. Which is
> an attraction actually.
>
> Bill
> --
>
> William R. Mattil
I did not expect a decent-sized catch while using such a crudely tied
fly.
Bill, I was wrong. As penance, I pledge to spend a month riding the
following bicycle in Greece, repeating "snobs don't like this, snobs
don't like this":
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rcousine/6068285675/in/photostream
My penance starts in late September. You may heap your pity and
sympathy on me.
Ryan Cousineau
Amateur. The beverage of choice is the radler, which is an even mix of
beer and 7-up (the literature says "lemonade," but it means the fizzy
lemon stuff that Germans call by that name, so you can easily
substitute with any lemon-lime soda, including a nice Italian lemon
soda if you want the super-euro experience). It should be mixed ahead
and decanted into water bottles.
Ryan Cousineau
Hm. Have you looked at some of the upright-geometry road bikes? I'm
talking Cervelo RS, Cannondale Synapse, etc. They are decidedly not
touring bikes: still built plenty light, but they focus on a cockpit
that makes it easy to get the bars up somewhat higher than on an all-
out road racer. They're often marketed as "century" bikes, given their
practicality for fast, long, unladen rides.
Ti is fine stuff for a bike, but most of the remaining makers focus on
the custom market. "Value for money" is a fairly ludicrous concept
when buying a bike for non-competitive, recreational rides, but you've
indicated a pretty generous budget. As far as I can tell, most high-
end bikes are price-determined more by their components than their
frames: the S5 is a tidy example: frame is $3000, Rival build is
$3800, Di2 $9000, and note that all of those builds come with a set of
relatively mundane wheels, so assume a lot of R5 riders are adding
thousands to the list price with a deep-section CF wheel upgrade.
What I'm getting at is that frame geometry > components > frame
material.
thirty-six
I'll call it a shandy. I prefer a dark mild ale myself, which can be
obtained in convenient cans but need a little chilling after a load of
shaking on the bike, so a bag sized suitable to take a wine bottle
seems more appropriate when entertaining.
> lemon stuff that Germans call by that name, so you can easily
> substitute with any lemon-lime soda, including a nice Italian lemon
> soda if you want the super-euro experience). It should be mixed ahead
> and decanted into water bottles.
I've seen the Italian lemonade, but it's more costly than the UK
premium brands that I'm aware of. Does it have a lot of lemon oil
content, Is it particularly zesty?