What Price Winning?
BLafferty
Seriously messing with the body. None of this is new in so far as the
methods are concerned.
Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
years?
Kurgan Gringioni
"BLafferty" <Br...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:84adnaDQSs9u_DLR...@giganews.com...
:
:
: Seriously messing with the body.
Dumbass -
Let's get real. It's not any more "messing with the body" than women taking
birth control hormones.
IMO, it's a lot less of "messing with the body" since few of the athletes
engage in long term use. They can't, because of the testing. Athletes will
cycle on and cycle off. Women on the pill, OTOH, can have their reproductive
system shut down due to long term everyday use. I have a close friend who
just got married and wants to get pregnant, but she's gonna have to wait
awhile. 20 years of being on the pill caused her to stop menstrating (and
that's quite common amongst pill users).. It might be a year or two before
it starts working again.
Open your eyes. We live in a doping world.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Fred Flintstein
One might ask, given that as a stage winner he was tested, how
he managed to not come up positive for something as easily
detected as clenbuterol.
Fred Flintstein
BLafferty
FuckWit, that's a totally false analogy. It will be nice when you reach
menopause and no longer go on the rag here with clouded reasoning.
Plano Dude
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-c...
>
> Seriously messing with the body. None of this is new in so far as the
> methods are concerned.
>
> Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> years?
In terms of figuring out the anonymous rider, he says that AC had
blood drawn after the Dauphine. Since it is very likely that AC went
and stayed in Spain until the start of the Tour, the unnamed rider is
almost certainly Spanish. Besides AC, there are 6 other Spanish riders
on Astana's 2010 roster. Four of them rode both the Dauphine and the
Tour: Noval, Hernandez, Novarro, and De La Fuente.
The other two are Josep Pou and Oscar Pereiro.
Noval, Hernandez, and Novarro are scheduled to go to Saxo, so unlikely
to spill the beans.
Pou is an unknown entity. Pereiro is retiring. Did De La Fuente talk
because Contador didn't take him to Saxo?
Plano Dude
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-c...
>
> methods are concerned.
>
> Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> years?
Accoring to the unknown rider, clenbuterol seems to have somewhat
offsetting benefits:
“Clenbuterol is used to get rid of the last kilos while, at the same
time, to ensure that you do not lose muscle mass - or, in the best
case, even gain a little extra muscle mass.”
There is a point of diminishing returns on muscle mass, otherwise all
riders (and runners for that matter) would be built like sprinters.
And remember that part of Armstrong’s “transformation” was that he
lost muscle mass which allowed him to climb better.
Beloved Fred No. 1
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-clenbuterol-at-criterium-du-dauphine
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>> Let's get real. It's not any more "messing with the body" than women
>> taking birth control hormones.
>>
>> IMO, it's a lot less of "messing with the body" since few of the athletes
>> engage in long term use.
BLafferty wrote:
> FuckWit, that's a totally false analogy. It will be nice when you reach
> menopause and no longer go on the rag here with clouded reasoning.
How is it a false analogy ? Clenbuterol is just a bronchodilator for
asthma sufferers (the people loved by Magilla), the effects of hormones
on the body is much more pronounced.
BLafferty
FuckTard, when did Clenbuterol become medically approved for bicycle
racing performance enhancement?
Brad Anders
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-c...
>
> methods are concerned.
>
> Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> years?
Looks like the article has been yanked.
Brad Anders
Fred
wrote:
> On 10/8/2010 1:24 PM, BLafferty wrote:
>
>
> > Seriously messing with the body. None of this is new in so far as the
> > methods are concerned.
>
> > Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> > years?
>
> One might ask, given that as a stage winner he was tested, how
> he managed to not come up positive for something as easily
> detected as clenbuterol.
>
> Fred Flintstein
D'uh, Fred F., ever hear of micro-dosing? He got popped during the
Tour because the testing for Tour samples was done in the one lab in
the whole stinkin' world that can detect clenbuterol at the levels he
was using. He never expected that there was a lab that could test to
such a low level, as it was so low below the standard required for
certification.
"No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Fred G.
Plano Dude
Plano Dude
> On Oct 8, 5:43 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 8, 11:24 am, BLafferty <Br...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-c...
>
> > > Seriously messing with the body. None of this is new in so far as the
> > > methods are concerned.
>
> > > Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> > > years?
>
> > Looks like the article has been yanked.
>
> > Brad Anders
>
Story changed from originally ID-ing source as rider to source as
individual.
DirtRoadie
> On Oct 8, 5:43 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 8, 11:24 am, BLafferty <Br...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/astana-source-alleges-contador-used-c...
>
> > > Seriously messing with the body. None of this is new in so far as the
> > > methods are concerned.
>
> > > Question, who on the Astana staff was with Armstrong in the post-Postal
> > > years?
>
> > Looks like the article has been yanked.
>
> > Brad Anders
>
It's still there
http://bit.ly/9rnjoA
BTW what prompted you to refer to an unnamed "rider?"
I may have missed it but I have seen only a reference to an Astana
"source."
This is also one of those snowballing internet stories that is less
about what took place than it is about a huge number of repetitions
of "So-and-so is reporting ...".
The volume of stories is misleading.
DR
Steve Freides
> Let's get real. It's not any more "messing with the body" than women
> taking birth control hormones.
>
> IMO, it's a lot less of "messing with the body" since few of the
> athletes engage in long term use. They can't, because of the testing.
> Athletes will cycle on and cycle off. Women on the pill, OTOH, can
> have their reproductive system shut down due to long term everyday
> use. I have a close friend who just got married and wants to get
> pregnant, but she's gonna have to wait awhile. 20 years of being on
> the pill caused her to stop menstrating (and that's quite common
> amongst pill users).. It might be a year or two before it starts
> working again.
What if Contador is pregnant?
-S-
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbass,
Scenario: Rider uses clenbuterol for whatever purpose
in the early season. At some point, say just after the
Dauphine, he withdraws blood and stores it for later.
The concentration of clenbuterol in that blood is X.
If he got tested, presumably X is under the limit of whatever
that particular lab could detect.
At the Tour, he re-transfuses the blood. Presumably he
doesn't transfuse an enormous amount or it would
make his values look weird. I would guess less than
one unit, but let's say he infused a whole unit. There
are about 12 units in a body in total. So now his concentration
of clenbuterol is X/12, and he gets popped for that by
the lab that has to be at least 12 times more sensitive
than the other lab.
See the issue? It's entirely possible that this is what
happened, it's just not obvious that it can be made to
work. A simple assumption is that it did happen but
the story is bogus and the use of clenbuterol and withdrawal
of blood were at some other time, not when Contador was
off winning stages and getting tested. Clenbuterol is
so old school and easy to detect that it would be safer
not to use before a race you intended to be competitive in.
Fredmaster Ben
Brad Anders
>
> - Show quoted text -
+1 IMO, that's what happened. The "dope steak" story has been
completely invalidated by experts, it's totally bogus. I'm sure WADA
and the UCI understand all of this. The question is - what is their
strategy to let AC get off and keep his TdF title? My guess is that
they're going to 100% buy into the "dope steak" theory, and in spite
of sanctioning many others for similar "unintentional" doping cases,
will take the heat from appeals and try to sweep this under the rug.
The alternative, banning AC and giving up his TdF title, is simply too
unpalatable. Even WADA probably doesn't want this to happen.
This is nothing like the LA case. We're not talking about taking away
titles from a decade ago, we're talking about the 2nd time they would
have to strip the TdF winner of his title in 4 years. It would
obliterate all of the so-called "progress" in eliminating dope from
pro cycling, and expose the sport again to scorn and ridicule, just
when it was starting to pull sponsors back and get interest back from
the fans. No way they let AC go down.
Brad Anders
Fred Fredburger
Does WADA test for that?
Kurgan Gringioni
Dumbass -
The point was that people all around us use drugs that have a much greater
effect on the body than the PEDs.
Therefore, relative to the culture at large, using PEDs is not "messing with
the body".
Fredmaster of Brainerd
>
> +1 IMO, that's what happened. The "dope steak" story has been
> completely invalidated by experts, it's totally bogus. I'm sure WADA
> and the UCI understand all of this. The question is - what is their
> strategy to let AC get off and keep his TdF title? My guess is that
> they're going to 100% buy into the "dope steak" theory, and in spite
> of sanctioning many others for similar "unintentional" doping cases,
> will take the heat from appeals and try to sweep this under the rug.
> The alternative, banning AC and giving up his TdF title, is simply too
> unpalatable. Even WADA probably doesn't want this to happen.
>
> This is nothing like the LA case. We're not talking about taking away
> titles from a decade ago, we're talking about the 2nd time they would
> have to strip the TdF winner of his title in 4 years. It would
> obliterate all of the so-called "progress" in eliminating dope from
> pro cycling, and expose the sport again to scorn and ridicule, just
> when it was starting to pull sponsors back and get interest back from
> the fans. No way they let AC go down.
>
IMO, WADA does not give a fig about whether they
damage the TdF or pro cycling in general. And the
health and reputation of pro sports is not in their
mandate. WADA exists to protect the IOC, not the
ASO.
Professional sports and Olympic sports have
conflicting interests. Actually, Olympic sports do have
similar interests to the pro organizations - they would
like an absence of doping cases, whether or not there
is an absence of doping. But the Olympic sports'
money comes from governing bodies and governments
rather than fans, and they will accept a different
place on a spectrum that runs between "We've got
the dopers on the run this time!" and "Revising the
winners months or years after the fact is BS."
Fredmaster Ben
RicodJour
wrote:
> "BLafferty" <Br...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3emdneiNktRgEzLR...@giganews.com...
> : On 10/8/2010 5:26 PM, Beloved Fred No. 1 wrote:: > BLafferty wrote:
>
> : >>>
> : >
> : > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> : >>> Let's get real. It's not any more "messing with the body" than women
> : >>> taking birth control hormones.
> : >>>
> : >>> IMO, it's a lot less of "messing with the body" since few of the
> : >>> athletes
> : >>> engage in long term use.
> : >: > BLafferty wrote:
>
> : >> FuckWit, that's a totally false analogy. It will be nice when you reach
> : >> menopause and no longer go on the rag here with clouded reasoning.
> : >
> : > How is it a false analogy ? Clenbuterol is just a bronchodilator for
> : > asthma sufferers (the people loved by Magilla), the effects of hormones
> : > on the body is much more pronounced.
> :
> : FuckTard, when did Clenbuterol become medically approved for bicycle
> : racing performance enhancement?
>
> Dumbass -
>
> The point was that people all around us use drugs that have a much greater
> effect on the body than the PEDs.
>
> Therefore, relative to the culture at large, using PEDs is not "messing with
> the body".
Don't you get it? It's not about whatever point you're making, it's
about whatever point Barry's trying to make...which, of course, is
that LANCE is a bad man and responsible for all ills in the world.
I truly hope Laffemorrhoid lives a long life. There will be nothing
finer than to read his drivel trying to tie LANCE into whatever doping
is still happening in the 2030 Tour.* I'm getting Futuro-nostalgic
just thinking about it.
R
* Yes, I realize that bitter men don't reach old age, but one can
hope.
A. Dumas
> On Oct 8, 4:57 pm, Plano Dude wrote:
>> On Oct 8, 5:43 pm, Brad Anders wrote:
>>> Looks like the article has been yanked.
>
> It's still there
> http://bit.ly/9rnjoA
>
> BTW what prompted you to refer to an unnamed "rider?"
> I may have missed it but I have seen only a reference to an Astana
> "source."
Don't you people go to the fucking source of an article? So you all
depend blindly on the great journalistic integrity and fantastic
translation skillz of the cycling press, nice.
Original article
http://www.humo.be/tws/actua/21126/alberto-contador-de-waarheid-over-clenbuterol.html
talks about "a source very close to the Astana team of the Spanish Tour
winner." The first quote is introduced as coming from "Wielrenner"
(rider), subsequent quotes are from "Insider." Presumable they are one
and the same.
Fred Flintstein
> We're not talking about taking away
> titles from a decade ago, we're talking about the 2nd time they would
> have to strip the TdF winner of his title in 4 years. It would
> obliterate all of the so-called "progress" in eliminating dope from
> pro cycling, and expose the sport again to scorn and ridicule, just
> when it was starting to pull sponsors back and get interest back from
> the fans. No way they let AC go down.
They should dock him 10 minutes and move on. Shame they don't
have that option.
Fred Flintstein
Fred Flintstein
> A simple assumption is that it did happen but
> the story is bogus and the use of clenbuterol and withdrawal
> of blood were at some other time, not when Contador was
> off winning stages and getting tested. Clenbuterol is
> so old school and easy to detect that it would be safer
> not to use before a race you intended to be competitive in.
Yes, that's my point. No reasonable person would take a
chance on a highly detectable drug like clenbuterol at
a race with as little significance as the Criterium du
Dauphiné, essentially a training race.
Fred Flintstein
Fred
wrote:
Your point would make sense IF a reasonable person intended to take
the drug at a level known to be highly detectable. Please keep in
mind that AC was apparently using it at a very, very low level that
was thought to be perfectly safe from detection until that one fateful
day when they sent his sample to the ONE FRIKKIN LAB IN THE WHOLE
WORLD that could detect at a level low enough to nab him. I'd be
willing to bet that neither AC or anyone else in his little drug ring
was aware that the lab in Cologne could detect it that low.
End result: busted.
Fred
H. Fred Kveck
Fred <fred....@yahoo.com> wrote:
That may be true. Or: they know that using clen at such low levels yields no gain
so why even bother? The risk of trying to cut it close to the "detectable/not
detectable" level is one of those things that seems counterproductive to me,
especially since (as FF said above) clen is (and has been) a highly detectable drug.
DirtRoadie
> DirtRoadie wrote:
> > On Oct 8, 4:57 pm, Plano Dude wrote:
> >> On Oct 8, 5:43 pm, Brad Anders wrote:
> >>> Looks like the article has been yanked.
> >>http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5948/Astana-insider-claims-that-Con...
>
> > It's still there
> >http://bit.ly/9rnjoA
>
> > BTW what prompted you to refer to an unnamed "rider?"
> > I may have missed it but I have seen only a reference to an Astana
> > "source."
>
> Don't you people go to the fucking source of an article? So you all
> depend blindly on the great journalistic integrity and fantastic
> translation skillz of the cycling press, nice.
>
DirtRoadie
> > On Oct 8, 4:57 pm, Plano Dude wrote:
> >> On Oct 8, 5:43 pm, Brad Anders wrote:
> >>> Looks like the article has been yanked.
> >>http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5948/Astana-insider-claims-that-Con...
>
> > It's still there
> >http://bit.ly/9rnjoA
>
> > BTW what prompted you to refer to an unnamed "rider?"
> > I may have missed it but I have seen only a reference to an Astana
> > "source."
>
> Don't you people go to the fucking source of an article? So you all
> depend blindly on the great journalistic integrity and fantastic
> translation skillz of the cycling press, nice.
>
> talks about "a source very close to the Astana team of the Spanish Tour
> winner." The first quote is introduced as coming from "Wielrenner"
> (rider), subsequent quotes are from "Insider." Presumable they are one
> and the same.
Ah! If only every web source would state THEIR source rather than
suggesting that they have original information. And to be fair they
often do when the source is, for example, AP.
Anyhow, thanks for the root link.
DR
--D-y
wrote:
> "BLafferty" <Br...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3emdneiNktRgEzLR...@giganews.com...
> : On 10/8/2010 5:26 PM, Beloved Fred No. 1 wrote:: > BLafferty wrote:
>
> : >>>
> : >
> : > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> : >>> Let's get real. It's not any more "messing with the body" than women
> : >>> taking birth control hormones.
> : >>>
> : >>> IMO, it's a lot less of "messing with the body" since few of the
> : >>> athletes
> : >>> engage in long term use.
> : >: > BLafferty wrote:
>
> : >> FuckWit, that's a totally false analogy. It will be nice when you reach
> : >> menopause and no longer go on the rag here with clouded reasoning.
> : >
> : > How is it a false analogy ? Clenbuterol is just a bronchodilator for
> : > asthma sufferers (the people loved by Magilla), the effects of hormones
> : > on the body is much more pronounced.
> :
> : FuckTard, when did Clenbuterol become medically approved for bicycle
> : racing performance enhancement?
>
> Dumbass -
>
> The point was that people all around us use drugs that have a much greater
> effect on the body than the PEDs.
>
> Therefore, relative to the culture at large, using PEDs is not "messing with
> the body".
If this biomedical research were not kept secret, society at large
could benefit.
For instance: The reason for the alleged EPO deaths was the veil of
secrecy. In the light of day, with better supervision, the problems
with "overdosing" with EPO would have been figured out a lot sooner.
The problem is, we don't really know, to a large extent, what
substances in what dosages and combinations really do "seriously mess
with the body".
Including steroids, which may not be at all the guaranteed horror show
that some believe is the case, if not ignorantly used and abused.
This is still a problem without a solution. If we could run "all the
tests" in the best labs on all the pro riders (and football, baseball
players, chess players, etc. etc.) what do you really think the
results would be?
Alberto was just another Great Hope. Don't forget, Lance Armstrong was
once welcomed as such, at least in some quarters <g>.
Remember when he saved the Tour de France?
--D-y
Beloved Fred No. 1
> The problem is, we don't really know, to a large extent, what
> substances in what dosages and combinations really do "seriously mess
> with the body".
> Including steroids, which may not be at all the guaranteed horror show
> that some believe is the case, if not ignorantly used and abused.
Just about anything in large doses can kill you, even orange juice and
water:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication>
Steve Freides
They should - you never know.
Well, alright, maybe you do know about this one.
-S-