Morotized Doping?
dave a
60 - 100 W for a short period could make a pretty big difference. The
article claims that it was first brought to the attention of authorities
at amateur races in the US. Who would've thought?
- dave a
Anton Berlin
trialed with those panniers.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:ht1ge...@news5.newsguy.com...
There's always Triox. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Tri-ox_compound
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Henry
> I always kind of thought it was suspicious that Cancellara time
> trialed with those panniers.
as an electronincs luddite, I assume something like this is very easy
to create and hide. Battery and motor in the frame.
F. Kurgan Gringioni
"Henry" <snogfest_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d4ea4b87-e1e9-438e...@t14g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
IMO, in this particular project the electronics are easy and the hard part
is mechanical.
Very doable, given enough resources. I think it'd be fun to build something
like this and use it on some group training ride. Cheating like that in a
real race though is just way, way beyond anything done before. It's way
worse than doping.
thanks,
Fred. presented by Gringioni.
DA74
wrote:
> "Henry" <snogfest_hosebe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
It sounds rickfuckingdiculous. This smells like that other bullshit
story in ~'03 where Lance was supposedly testing out magnetic bearings
that would make pedaling a bike like an act of levitation. Plus this
"motor" weighs four fucking pounds! Come on guys...
-DA74
dave a
Hey Fred, pbG
Why is it way worse than doping? Are you suggesting that there are
degrees of cheating? I actually think it is much better than taking
drugs that can destroy your health. It's really not much different than
other mechanical advances like aero bars or skin suits. Anyone could
have easy access to it and the playing field would be pretty level since
the technology is limited by battery life. More battery means more
weight so that also helps even things out. Plus, it has to be fairly
easy to detect, unlike some doping.
Doping, on the other hand, is very dangerous health-wise and different
people react differently to the various doping regimes.
Thanks,
- dave a
Charles
some small batteries to be used for accelerations. Much like the new
Porsche GT3 race car.
F. Kurgan Gringioni
>
> Why is it way worse than doping? Are you suggesting that there are
> degrees of cheating? I actually think it is much better than taking drugs
> that can destroy your health.
Dumbass -
IMO, people should be free to do whatever they want to their own bodies.
As for cheating, ya, IMO using a motor in a bike race is worse, but in the
grand scheme of things who cares? It's just entertainment.
Betty Munro
The advantages of having brake pads rubbing:
<http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/8763.html>
Henry
dumbass
how much does a cellular phone battery weigh ?
I meant it - I really don't know what the watt/weight ratio is
RicodJour
wrote:
> "Henry" <snogfest_hosebe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Given enough resources...and a suspension of the laws of physics.
It's also ridiculously easy to check for such modifications.
Weigh the bike.
Run a magnet along the seat and down tubes.
R
Fred Flintstein
> Doping, on the other hand, is very dangerous health-wise
Dude, one of the big reasons it is so hard to get
a grip on the problem is that it isn't very
dangerous, health-wise. That's true for dumbasses,
but not generally.
Fred Flintstein
z, fred
Welcome the rebirth of steel frames back into the peloton.
Brad Anders
Lots of innovation in Silicon Valley, and lots of master's with
engineering expertise and money. I think the FBI ought to do a raid on
Chang's shop, that's where this is all coming from. Anyone who can
make a laser harp can make one of these jobbies.
Brad Anders
DA74
>
> - Show quoted text -
Fucktard,
That article stated that the motor/battery weighed 1600+ grams.
You're Welcome,
DA74
F. Kurgan Gringioni
"DA74" <davida...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2711cb99-5d93-44f4...@r21g2000prr.googlegroups.com...
> It sounds rickfuckingdiculous. This smells like that other bullshit
> story in ~'03 where Lance was supposedly testing out magnetic bearings
> that would make pedaling a bike like an act of levitation. Plus this
> "motor" weighs four fucking pounds! Come on guys...
Dumbass -
It's totally plausible. I'm not talking about the cheating part, I'm talking
about being able to hide a system that works inside a bike frame that
produces 60-100 watts.
Which part do you have a problem with? The motor? or the battery?
F. Kurgan Gringioni
"Brad Anders" <pban...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4e2aaf83-f7e2-4216...@f13g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...
> Lots of innovation in Silicon Valley, and lots of master's with
> engineering expertise and money. I think the FBI ought to do a raid on
> Chang's shop, that's where this is all coming from. Anyone who can
> make a laser harp can make one of these jobbies.
Dumbass -
I was thinking about making one and taking it out to a practice crit, but my
bandmate isn't down for the time wastage.
Amit Ghosh
>
> Which part do you have a problem with? The motor? or the battery?
>
dumbass,
the noise.
F. Kurgan Gringioni
"Amit Ghosh" <amit....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a34cecc5-10af-4c77...@k31g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
:: dumbass,
::
:: the noise.
Dumbass -
Electric motors don't make noise. The torque comes via magnetism, there's no
combustion.
For instance, in electric cars, the noise is from the drivetrain. They are
very quiet.
Anton Berlin
I didn't want to bias the conversation.
Michael Press
dave a <blkcatRE...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/19/2010 7:06 PM, F. Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> >
> > "Henry" <snogfest_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:d4ea4b87-e1e9-438e...@t14g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > On May 20, 8:11 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> I always kind of thought it was suspicious that Cancellara time
> >>> trialed with those panniers.
> >>
> >> as an electronincs luddite, I assume something like this is very easy
> >> to create and hide. Battery and motor in the frame.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > IMO, in this particular project the electronics are easy and the hard
> > part is mechanical.
> >
> > Very doable, given enough resources. I think it'd be fun to build
> > something like this and use it on some group training ride. Cheating
> > like that in a real race though is just way, way beyond anything done
> > before. It's way worse than doping.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> Hey Fred, pbG
>
> Why is it way worse than doping?
Because dopers have to turn the pedals.
> Are you suggesting that there are
> degrees of cheating? I actually think it is much better than taking
> drugs that can destroy your health.
I does not destroy my health.
> It's really not much different than
> other mechanical advances like aero bars or skin suits.
It is different. Passive system-Active system.
Betsy Ross can sew a skin suit.
Benjamin Franklin cannot design,
much less build a motor.
> Anyone could
> have easy access to it and the playing field would be pretty level since
> the technology is limited by battery life. More battery means more
> weight so that also helps even things out. Plus, it has to be fairly
> easy to detect, unlike some doping.
>
> Doping, on the other hand, is very dangerous health-wise and different
> people react differently to the various doping regimes.
I am ignoring these last two paragraphs.
If there is a an electric motor in the machine
it is not bicycle racing. Think about it.
--
Michael Press
cur...@the-md-russells.org
I am an expert on electric motors because I used to race those little
slot cars. Electric motors whir like crazy, then fly off the track and
sit there smoking and smelling like burnt oil. Who wants that on a
bike?
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
Brad Anders
wrote:
> "Brad Anders" <pband...@gmail.com> wrote in message
You should do it, anyway. Check around and see if they still have
those Thursday night crits in Fremont, and IIRC, there used to be a
series near Berkeley. I think it would be absolutely hysterical to see
the reaction of riders around you when you kicked that thing in.
All kidding aside, such devices have a huge amount of utility for the
non-racing cyclists out there. I know Bill Bushnell has built a hybrid
bike, I'm sure others have done so.
Brad Anders
DA74
wrote:
> "DA74" <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I have a problem with the story. It just sounds like some bullshit
gossip that somebody heard from a friend about some guy at some race
somewhere and it has spun out into a "story" with no pictures no
interviews etc...Just like the levitating magnetic bearings that Lance
was going to use in the Tour in 2003.
If a news organization is going to publish something give me some
information. In what race did it occur? Did the other riders notice
something strange about the bike or the rider? This sounds like
bullshit. I don't have a problem with the plausability but do you
really think this will go unnoticed in the pro peloton? And if some
jagoff is doing this in an amateur race is he trying to get a
contract? I mean seriously this whole thing is fucking lame.
-DA74
Tuschinski
> On Thu, 20 May 2010 10:32:17 -0700, "F. Kurgan Gringioni"
>
>
>
>
> >"Amit Ghosh" <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:a34cecc5-10af-4c77...@k31g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
> >On May 20, 12:55 pm, "F. Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com>
>
> >> Which part do you have a problem with? The motor? or the battery?
>
> >:: dumbass,
> >::
> >:: the noise.
>
> >Dumbass -
>
> >Electric motors don't make noise. The torque comes via magnetism, there's no
> >combustion.
>
> >For instance, in electric cars, the noise is from the drivetrain. They are
> >very quiet.
>
> >thanks,
>
> >Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> I am an expert on electric motors because I used to race those little
> slot cars. Electric motors whir like crazy, then fly off the track and
> sit there smoking and smelling like burnt oil. Who wants that on a
> bike?
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...
Actually, they don't. I have two pedelecs and they are silent. Bafang
and Tonqin are silent consumer brands, I'm sure someone can make
something more sophisticated.
Mark J.
Here's the pictures and video. Try to keep up.
http://www.gruberassist.com/english/product/product-description/
Not four pounds, but even then, who cares if the thing carries its own
weight?
Mark J.
Michael Press
"Mark J." <MarkU...@comcast.net> wrote:
0.9 kg motor
1.7 kg battery
--
Michael Press
H. Fred Kveck
Brad Anders <pban...@gmail.com> wrote:
From what I recall, Bill's bike is putting out more than 500 watts, depending on
the motor and batteries. He has a couple of battery setups - one for endurance and
one for short events. It's a pretty cool setup but it isn't light.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
> In article <ht4fel$sp...@news.eternal-september.org>,
I was wondering how much this could do on
stored-energy grounds. The Gruber assist
seems to have a capacity of 4.5 amp-hours,
maximum draw 6 amps for 45 minutes, and is
claimed to deliver 200 watts. The battery pack
is a Li-Ion, 4.5Ah, 30 V (see the technology page).
So we are looking at a draw of ~180 W and the
actual power delivered to the drivetrain would be
a little less, depending on how efficient the gear
reduction is.
Anyway, that's a stored energy of about 135 W*hour.
Assuming the battery weighs about 1.3-1.5kg and the
rest is housing, that's an energy density of
order 90-100 W*hour/kg. Wikipedia says 100-250
W*hour/kg for Li-ion and I have a laptop battery here
that weighs 0.5 kg for 78 W*hour, so it's reasonable.
So you couldn't get a boost of 100 W for an entire
several-hour tour stage, although of course a decent
rider shouldn't need it most of the time. If the hard
parts of the stage are less than two hours long you
could get a 50-60 watt boost then (or use it for the
not so hard parts to save your legs while riding in the
peloton where the noise might obscure the gearbox
noise). 50-60 W is not much but certainly enough to
make a difference. Of course, for a Masters Fattie
race that is only 2-3 hours long and where the overall
wattage is lower, it would make a bigger difference.
So this device actually has more potential for illicit
use than I thought when I started looking at it,
even if you used a half-size battery to hide it inside the
frame. The main questions I have are how its
torque or RPM sensing works, that is does it know
how to adjust the speed so it provides just a fractional
assist above whatever cadence and power the rider
selects, and how noisy/efficient is the gear drive.
All the e-bikes I have heard have a somewhat
noticeable whine from the transmission.
This machine differs from common e-bikes by
having a lower-capacity, much smaller, more expensive
battery technology, plus hiding the drive at the BB.
Anyway, screw Masters Fattie disk wheels and Zipps,
this is the next frontier of buying speed.
Fredmaster Ben
z, fred
Furthermore, if you are that desperate for power, there are plenty of
ways to lighten your bike to compensate for the weight of the motor and
battery.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbass,
My vague understanding is that doping isn't very dangerous
if you work with someone like the orange juice doctor.
If you inject random shit you buy in gyms or work with
someone who is sloppy and switches blood bags or
leaves dirty and unsterilized blood plumbing all over
the place, then yeah, it might be dangerous, but in doping,
like everything else, I imagine you pay for quality.
Anyway, there is another issue on principle. Doping
doesn't turn donkeys into racehorses. They still have to
train hard, in fact many doping programs are about
amplifying the riders' recovery so they can train harder.
It's still human powered racing, limited by individuals'
endurance, and at most a few percent advantage
conferred by doping+training over just training.
On the other hand, there's no real limit to what putting
a motor into a BB could do. You might as well race
electric scooters. I have seen a Fattie riding a currently
available electric commuter bike simply ride away from
me on a hill without pedaling. Maybe LANCE could keep
up with a Fattie on a 60 lb e-bike, but with an actual
racer deriving a 50 to 100-w benefit from a hidden electric
motor, forget it.
Doping is a little bit like playing dirty in a contact sport.
It's not nice and it does confer an advantage, but it hasn't
yet fundamentally altered the nature of the sport. E-bikes
are a little like if some NFL linemen started sneaking
baseball bats to the line of scrimmage.
Fredmaster Ben
I'm just jealous because my bike isn't one of those fat-tubed
aluminum things that can hide more battery packs.
Brad Anders
wrote:
> In article <5d518116-35aa-4864-a1d3-e7e91dc66...@j36g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I found some pics of Bill's setup.
http://bushnell.homeip.net/~bill/bike/pictures/power_gold_rush_build/index3.html
Brad Anders
Frederick the Great
<31ca491e-7fb7-425d...@i31g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,
Somebody getting a 100 watt boost would look as if
he were. It would be obvious he is not working that hard
(unless he were Thomas Voeckler.)
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
<0227236a-cfb4-4361...@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Anders <pban...@gmail.com> wrote:
Lots of pictures of minutia, and finally on page 8 is a close up
of some working parts from which we can finally _infer_ the
energy transfer mechanism.
I still have no clue about the servo mechanism controlling
the power output of the motor. Since the motor drives the
rear cluster directly, it needs to back off for shifting.
Other than that, interesting.
--
Old Fritz
z, fred
The only time the effort would be apparent would be if he was physically
throttling back in a group. By himself or trying to burn people off his
wheel, he would still ride to his max + X watts.
Brad Anders
> In article
> <0227236a-cfb4-4361-9f09-720d627df...@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Lots of pictures of minutia, and finally on page 8 is a close up
> of some working parts from which we can finally _infer_ the
> energy transfer mechanism.
>
> I still have no clue about the servo mechanism controlling
> the power output of the motor. Since the motor drives the
> rear cluster directly, it needs to back off for shifting.
>
> Other than that, interesting.
>
> --
> Old Fritz
Hey, if you're interested, just email him, I'm sure his email is easy
enough to figure out. I'm pretty sure he'd tell anything you want to
know.
Brad Anders
F. Kurgan Gringioni
"Frederick the Great" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:rubrum-]
>
> I still have no clue about the servo mechanism controlling
> the power output of the motor. Since the motor drives the
> rear cluster directly, it needs to back off for shifting.
Dumbass -
No need for a servo. Just need on/off when shifting.
A servo is way more than is needed for this application. Simple 100 watts or
0 watts will work just fine.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Betty Munro
>> Why is it way worse than doping? Are you suggesting that there are
>> degrees of cheating?
Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> Anyway, there is another issue on principle. Doping
> doesn't turn donkeys into racehorses. They still have to
> train hard, in fact many doping programs are about
> amplifying the riders' recovery so they can train harder.
> On the other hand, there's no real limit to what putting
> a motor into a BB could do.
Exactement
> E-bikes are a little like if some NFL linemen started sneaking
> baseball bats to the line of scrimmage.
Unfortunately IBike is already taken.
> Fredmaster Ben
> I'm just jealous because my bike isn't one of those fat-tubed
> aluminum things that can hide more battery packs.
The return of Cannondale (come to think of it they did have a brief
dalliance with motorized devices). And being a true geek I'm sure you'd
love this one (at least the colour scheme is an improvement on your
current retro bike):
<http://cgi.ebay.com/Cannondale-CAAD-4-Aero-Triathlon-TT-Frame-/160436944039?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item255ac97ca7>
Frederick the Great
<0d07f5a2-389d-4655...@q8g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Brad Anders <pban...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 21, 5:57 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <0227236a-cfb4-4361-9f09-720d627df...@y18g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> > Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> > > I found some pics of Bill's setup.
> >
> > >http://bushnell.homeip.net/~bill/bike/pictures/power_gold_rush_build/...
> >
> > Lots of pictures of minutia, and finally on page 8 is a close up
> > of some working parts from which we can finally _infer_ the
> > energy transfer mechanism.
> >
> > I still have no clue about the servo mechanism controlling
> > the power output of the motor. Since the motor drives the
> > rear cluster directly, it needs to back off for shifting.
> >
> > Other than that, interesting.
>
> Hey, if you're interested, just email him, I'm sure his email is easy
> enough to figure out. I'm pretty sure he'd tell anything you want to
> know.
1. I am commenting on the web site.
2. I did not introduce the web site to this discussion.
3. I am not building an electric bicycle; and am more
interested in some other things.
4. If I were interested enough to write I would risk a
dialogue as diffuse as the web site.
5. There are full designs for electric bicycles on the
web, and elsewhere. Chalo Colina in rbt built several
effective electric bicycles.
--
Old Fritz
Michael Press
"F. Kurgan Gringioni" <kgrin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yes, I know; and think about an on-off switch as a servomechanism.
There has to be a clutch, and that is a servomechanism.
Do you see why and how it can productively thought of
as a servomechanism? We still do not know how the electric motor
and drive participate in shifting; not that I am asking.
--
Michael Press