LA's Big F*$king Deal
TheCoz
What comes around, goes around. Maybe Outside Mag is jumping the gun.
Landis/Lemond underground printing press release?
Coz
Scott
> On 6/16/2010 8:30 PM, TheCoz wrote:>http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Lance-Armstrong-rips-magazine-for-...
> > What comes around, goes around. Maybe Outside Mag is jumping the gun.
> > Landis/Lemond underground printing press release?
> > Coz
>
> do. He also doesn't look well in the photo. It may just be the camera
> angle, but his cheeks look rather sunken in.
D'uh, he always looks like that when he's at fighting, er... racing
weight. Tough to have puffy cheeks when you're around 4, maybe 5%
body fat.
B. Lafferty
sunken. Perhaps it's also part of aging. I recall a photo of Hinault
climbing in a TdF where he looked like a 40 year old even though he was
in his twenties.
z, fred
I had presumed his appearance was intentionally meant to look as
(naturally) old as possible. It works with the story.
Andy Coggan
> http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Lance-Armstrong-rips-magazine-for-...
> What comes around, goes around. Maybe Outside Mag is jumping the gun.
> Landis/Lemond underground printing press release?
> Coz
Apparently the journalistic ethics of Outside Magazine are no higher
than those of Perez Hilton:
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbiz/2010/06/16/behar.miley.photo.panel.cnn?hpt=T2
Andy Coggan
B. Lafferty
IIRC, they printed and article or excerpt fro the Dan Coyle's book on
Armstrong which Armstrong found less than flattering. I think Coyle
said at the time that he didn't expect to be on Armstrong's Christmas
card list.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> On 6/17/2010 10:51 AM, Andy Coggan wrote:> On Jun 16, 7:30 pm, TheCoz<cycled...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Lance-Armstrong-rips-magazine-for-...
> >> What comes around, goes around. Maybe Outside Mag is jumping the gun.
> >> Landis/Lemond underground printing press release?
> >> Coz
>
> > Apparently the journalistic ethics of Outside Magazine are no higher
> > than those of Perez Hilton:
>
>
> > Andy Coggan
>
> Outside Magazine has a pretty good reputation for hard-nosed reporting.
Dumbass -
The piece that Krakauer did for Outside on the 1996 Everest disaster
was one of the biggest pieces of shit I've ever read. Soooooo biased
and, IMO, wrong too. Krakauer blamed Fisher's company for everything,
singling out Anatoli Boukreev and neglecting to place any blame on Rob
Hall. Lame because Boukreev is the only one who saved anyone, Fisher's
company didn't lose and clients and Hall's company lost a number of
clients. From what I could tell, Krakauer pointed those fingers simply
because he didn't like Boukreev.
I read both Krakauer and Boukreev's books. Krakauer's account doesn't
add up when you look at who made it and who didn't.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
B. Lafferty
Fred Gringioni
"B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:kfGdnZm5F7pIHIfR...@giganews.com...
Dumbass -
Not really.
He didn't lay any blame on Hall.
Fisher's company lost Fisher, but no clients. Hall's company lost several
guides and several clients.
They both deserve blame. Krakauer let his personal bias vs. Boukreev affect
his journalism.
B. Lafferty
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
You said Outside had a "good reputation for hard nosed reporting".
Maybe so, but they don't shy away from printing stuff that's extremely
biased. I gave an obvious example.
B. Lafferty
Fred Flintstein
> Dumbass -
>
> You said Outside had a "good reputation for hard nosed reporting".
>
> Maybe so, but they don't shy away from printing stuff that's extremely
> biased. I gave an obvious example.
What about that piece from the masters racer where he started
a doping program and at the end of it still wasn't that good.
Was that some hard nosed reporting?
Fred Flintstein
--D-y
This latest "Defeat of Satan" rampage has been quite something.
Greg Lemond still fits the doper profile and always will, no matter
what happens with Lucif-- I mean, Lance.
Greg? Doper profile? I've been corrected in my old "couldn't ride in
June, won in July" perception.
The history apparently is, "couldn't ride in the first weeks of the
Giro, but did well in a TT" a little later.
Forgive me if I don't look up the exact sequence, but here we are
being told that iron *injections*, which some have said do not have
immediate strong effect on athletic performance, powered an even
quicker "cure" than had earlier been perceived by me and others. A
minor miracle of science?
"It was lead poisoning"? Back at that time, I had a real, practicing
MD tell me that pellets or bullets that are not actively causing harm
are commonly left in the body as there is no medical reason to dig in
there and get them out.
This Wiki article <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning> says
little danger exists from bullets or lead fragments "unless in or near
fluid-filled or synovial areas".
Further, actual medical treatment by chelation goes well beyond an
iron "booster" shot:
(quoting):
A chelating agent is a molecule with at least two negatively charged
groups that allow it to form complexes with metal ions with multiple
positive charges, such as lead.[119] The chelate that is thus formed
is nontoxic[120] and can be excreted in the urine, initially at up to
50 times the normal rate.[65] The chelating agents used for treatment
of lead poisoning are edetate disodium calcium (CaNa2EDTA),
dimercaprol (BAL), which are injected, and succimer and d-
penicillamine, which are administered orally.[121] Chelation therapy
is used in cases of acute lead poisoning,[18] severe poisoning, and
encephalopathy,[116] and is considered for people with blood lead
levels above 25 µg/dL.[23] While the use of chelation for people with
symptoms of lead poisoning is widely supported, use in asymptomatic
people with high blood lead levels is more controversial.[9] Chelation
therapy is of limited value for cases of chronic exposure to low
levels of lead. (end quote)
So, where's the proper doubt about Greg Lemond's story? Don't forget,
he knows there is very, very little chance he will be contradicted,
both due to the "omerta" he so roundly despises in public, and the
fact that there are no Greg Lemond B samples sitting in a freezer
somewhere to be test test tested.
Not to mention the fact that Greg himself might not know what was
really in his medications. Of course, he's still responsible, no
matter what...
--D-y
Brad Anders
been at odds with the facts, just as his apparent complete recovery
from mitochondrial myopathy has been. Greg never underwent even a
single drug test that begins to approach the sensitivity or spectrum
of the tests that cyclists today experience. And Lance has passed
those tests hundreds of times without failure.
Brad Anders
B. Lafferty
> symptoms of lead poisoning is widely supported, use in asymptomatic
> people with high blood lead levels is more controversial.[9] Chelation
> therapy is of limited value for cases of chronic exposure to low
> levels of lead. (end quote)
>
> So, where's the proper doubt about Greg Lemond's story? Don't forget,
> he knows there is very, very little chance he will be contradicted,
> both due to the "omerta" he so roundly despises in public, and the
> fact that there are no Greg Lemond B samples sitting in a freezer
> somewhere to be test test tested.
> Not to mention the fact that Greg himself might not know what was
> really in his medications. Of course, he's still responsible, no
> matter what...
> --D-y
myopathy, which Lemond was diagnosed with and claimed was caused by the
lead in his system, could not be caused lead poisoning. I noted back
then that this illness was genetic in etiology. There was one other
possibe etiology, according to standard internal medicine texts,to wit,
steroid abuse.
So contrary to your stupid assertions, I have always looked at cycling
with a cynical eye regarding drugs and have never assumed that anyone
was/is clean--not even Lemond.
Time for you to crawl back under that rock. ROTFL!!
RicodJour
> > symptoms of lead poisoning is widely supported, use in asymptomatic
> > people with high blood lead levels is more controversial.[9] Chelation
> > therapy is of limited value for cases of chronic exposure to low
> > levels of lead. (end quote)
>
> > So, where's the proper doubt about Greg Lemond's story? Don't forget,
> > he knows there is very, very little chance he will be contradicted,
> > both due to the "omerta" he so roundly despises in public, and the
> > fact that there are no Greg Lemond B samples sitting in a freezer
> > somewhere to be test test tested.
> > Not to mention the fact that Greg himself might not know what was
> > really in his medications. Of course, he's still responsible, no
> > matter what...
> > --D-y
>
> Search back to 1994 or 1995 here on rbr when I noted that mitochondrial
> myopathy, which Lemond was diagnosed with and claimed was caused by the
> lead in his system, could not be caused lead poisoning. I noted back
> then that this illness was genetic in etiology. There was one other
> possibe etiology, according to standard internal medicine texts,to wit,
> steroid abuse.
>
> So contrary to your stupid assertions, I have always looked at cycling
> with a cynical eye regarding drugs and have never assumed that anyone
> was/is clean--not even Lemond.
>
> Time for you to crawl back under that rock. ROTFL!!
D-y wasn't talking about your specific beliefs, other than the fact
that you have a permanent woodie for LANCE.
Your specific beliefs are overshadowed by your man-crush. I know -
you're just a wide-stancer.
R
Steve Freides
> I read them all as well. You're overstating again.
Pot, kettle.
-S-
Fred Gringioni
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:f9ead76b-891d-4a8e...@a42g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> D-y wasn't talking about your specific beliefs, other than the fact
> that you have a permanent woodie for LANCE.
>
> Your specific beliefs are overshadowed by your man-crush. I know -
> you're just a wide-stancer.
Dumbass -
I'm gonna guess that Lafferty's Man Crush originated when LANCE wouldn't
give him the reach around.
B. Lafferty
Mike Jacoubowsky
Yet there is a curious imbalance to when you post; didn't you pretty much
disappear during the "off" season (that being anything not surrounding the
TdF)? Doping issues come year 'round and cover a wide number of riders, but
during the 'Tour season, the focus narrows down to a select few (or, for
some, one).
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
z, fred
Specificity.
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
keep drinking the yellow kool aid.
B. Lafferty
dwindling rbr masses. You guys and with your petty personalities have
done a great job of running just about all who were really interested in
something other than engaging in a cute little dumbass mental circle
jerk. But, don't stop. It's a fun diversion when the doper in chief
hits the news.
Carry on, children. :-)
A. Dumas
> ROTFL!!
A. Dumas
> What about that piece from the masters racer where he started
> a doping program and at the end of it still wasn't that good.
>
> Was that some hard nosed reporting?
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html
Dude used it to be better at Paris-Brest-Paris (1225 km) on a tandem.
With aero bars.
Mike Jacoubowsky
OK, let me rephrase. You make a choice to post only two months out of the
year. You choose those two months. Why have you chosen the two months you
do? I guess you answered that in your last sentence. It's all about Lance.
Why? As I said, doping is a year-round gig. Why the (admitted) focus on just
one person? The "doper in chief" as you say?
There is some real content on RBR. It's your choice whether to be part of it
or take the low road that you claim to deride.
B. Lafferty
"dumbasses" who have driven a host of good people away. The rbr of
today IS the low road. It's especially fun to set the children off
whenever Lace is in the doping news. It has nothing to do with th racing
season. And the children are fun to watch now and then all year round.
Carry on.
Fred on a stick
> Dude used it to be better at Paris-Brest-Paris (1225 km) on a tandem.
> With aero bars.
Yow. How many wrong things do you count in those two sentences?
Mike Jacoubowsky
I'm trying really hard not to channel KP. :-)
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
--D-y
> > symptoms of lead poisoning is widely supported, use in asymptomatic
> > people with high blood lead levels is more controversial.[9] Chelation
> > therapy is of limited value for cases of chronic exposure to low
> > levels of lead. (end quote)
>
> > So, where's the proper doubt about Greg Lemond's story? Don't forget,
> > he knows there is very, very little chance he will be contradicted,
> > both due to the "omerta" he so roundly despises in public, and the
> > fact that there are no Greg Lemond B samples sitting in a freezer
> > somewhere to be test test tested.
> > Not to mention the fact that Greg himself might not know what was
> > really in his medications. Of course, he's still responsible, no
> > matter what...
> > --D-y
>
> Search back to 1994 or 1995 here on rbr when I noted that mitochondrial
> myopathy, which Lemond was diagnosed with and claimed was caused by the
> lead in his system, could not be caused lead poisoning. I noted back
> then that this illness was genetic in etiology. There was one other
> possibe etiology, according to standard internal medicine texts,to wit,
> steroid abuse.
>
> So contrary to your stupid assertions, I have always looked at cycling
> with a cynical eye regarding drugs and have never assumed that anyone
> was/is clean--not even Lemond.
>
> Time for you to crawl back under that rock. ROTFL!!
Wow, you could have fooled me IRT your Lemond hero worship, but thanks
for explaining yourself.
OK, Lemond is just a vector, one you hope will bring down LANCE (LANCE
LANCE LANCE).
And you agree, "they're all doping".
So, when do we stop making the athletes into scapegoats for a corrupt
system?
None of your personal insults change the fact that you have an
obsession with the destruction of Lance Armstrong.
Your post mentioning Kim Kirchen (giving LA a momentary break)? The
motivation is obvious.
How about the racing, Brian?
--D-y
B. Lafferty
I don't consider them scapegoats. They are just a part of the problem.
I also consider guys like McQuaid and Verbruggen just as complicit in
the entire system of doping. This is why I, and a few others, several
years ago called for a suspension of the sport for a year. Put them all
out of work for a year, maybe two, and let them come to grips with the
systemic nature of the problem and what their actions have cost them, to
wit, their livelihood.
I would also impose draconian sanctions on the teams once the
professional sport resumes. Any team with a rider coming up with a
positive control after testing the B sample is immediately suspended for
a month or two. Not pending appeals to CAS.
>
> None of your personal insults change the fact that you have an
> obsession with the destruction of Lance Armstrong.
IMO, Lance Armstrong is one of the worst hypocrites living. He has
deluded a generation of cancer victims and survivors. When it becomes
crystal clear what he and his teams have been up to, whether or not he's
indicted, I hope that he faces them and tries to explain his actions.
>
> Your post mentioning Kim Kirchen (giving LA a momentary break)? The
> motivation is obvious.
Heart attacks, deep vein thrombosis, jaws needing to be surgically
reduced, podiatry issues.........they're all indicators of a problem.
I'm sure Kim was the only clean rider on Fasa Bortolo, T-Mobile and
Milram. And his current Russian team is undoubtedly as clean as the
Siberian snow.
>
> How about the racing, Brian?
What racing? Oh, you mean the freak show. George Hincapie the Pyrenees
climber. Indurain the climber. There is no racing these days. What you
have are public preparation trials. May the best prepared team win. Take
a look at the recent years here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
It's no longer sport, my friend.
> --D-y
--D-y
> I don't consider them scapegoats. They are just a part of the problem.
> I also consider guys like McQuaid and Verbruggen just as complicit in
> the entire system of doping. This is why I, and a few others, several
> years ago called for a suspension of the sport for a year. Put them all
> out of work for a year, maybe two, and let them come to grips with the
> systemic nature of the problem and what their actions have cost them, to
> wit, their livelihood.
I like the NASCAR method a whole lot better. Note, some of their
sanctions were upscaled pretty severely, notably IRT the Car of
Tomorrow, which was intended to be a step forward in safety and
provide a level playing field IRT aerodynamics (big teams, mega time
in expensive wind tunnels, big aero advantage). But no lifetime
suspensions were handed out to the best of my limited knowledge.
>
> I would also impose draconian sanctions on the teams once the
> professional sport resumes. Any team with a rider coming up with a
> positive control after testing the B sample is immediately suspended for
> a month or two. Not pending appeals to CAS.
>
>
>
> > None of your personal insults change the fact that you have an
> > obsession with the destruction of Lance Armstrong.
>
> IMO, Lance Armstrong is one of the worst hypocrites living. He has
> deluded a generation of cancer victims and survivors. When it becomes
> crystal clear what he and his teams have been up to, whether or not he's
> indicted, I hope that he faces them and tries to explain his actions.
>
>
>
> > Your post mentioning Kim Kirchen (giving LA a momentary break)? The
> > motivation is obvious.
>
> Heart attacks, deep vein thrombosis, jaws needing to be surgically
> reduced, podiatry issues.........they're all indicators of a problem.
> I'm sure Kim was the only clean rider on Fasa Bortolo, T-Mobile and
> Milram. And his current Russian team is undoubtedly as clean as the
> Siberian snow.
>
>
>
> > How about the racing, Brian?
>
> What racing? Oh, you mean the freak show. George Hincapie the Pyrenees
> climber. Indurain the climber. There is no racing these days. What you
> have are public preparation trials. May the best prepared team win. Take
> a look at the recent years herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
>
> It's no longer sport, my friend.
Brian. We only have "better drugs" now. It never, ever has been
"sport". One reason why I don't agree with draconian sanctions;
another is, like the death penalty, the deterrence factor is arguable.
There is no rosy past to return to in the first place; in fact, maybe
(<g>)we're better off without riders resorting to strychnine, ether,
alcohol, etc.
IRT "public preparation trials", I'll go along with you (maybe a whole
mile, here <g>) in that I'd like to see TTTWTNBTT (the truth, whole
truth, etc.) brought to light in order to protect riders' health,
partly, and also to openly examine substance administration protocols
in service of Better Living Through Chemistry (Intended Irony Meter
Reading is 0.0000 on that last one).
For instance, if HGH is dangerous (and we have indication that it
might be), is there a safe dosage that still promotes improved
physical performance, or even "frame of mind"? Or is it something that
should really should be banned when sole intended use is improvement
in athletic competition because there is no useful positive tradeoff
(below a demonstrable "danger threshold")?
IMHO, Lance Armstrong might turn out to be a "glass half full". If
he's The Best Doper, well, he did recover from a serious bout with
cancer and go on to win seven TdF's in a row, and he did inspire many,
many people with cancer (and those around him) to marshall their
forces and fight the good fight-- both with his athletic exploits and
his personal appearances including "cause rides". I'm told his
schedule is always full, every day, and that time/effort is not all
dedicated to fucking everything on two wheels, so to speak.
And the LAF has raised a lot of money and by all accounts (whoops)
spent it well, doing what they advertise they do, which includes
personalized help for cancer sufferers.
I don't like the fact that doping exists. I wish we had "perfect
tests"; we don't and probably never will, either. No, I didn't much
like it when (in days of old, and/or less old) I went to States or
even just OOT races and normal-looking (ahem) human beings rode away
from me like I was a total slug. What can I say, cheaters can win, at
least for a while, and there are choices in life.
BTW: I still have some medals, too <g>. Jingle, jingle, "non-virtual",
and there are other Violet Crown medals because I "made it happen".
OK, apparently thanks to a few recent daily doses of Celebrex that I
do not have a prescription for, my lower back seems to be on the mend
at long last. I'm gonna walk the dogs and then put my doper butt on a
bike saddle for the first time in about three weeks and see what
happens.
Wish me luck, would you? Thanks!
--D-y
z, fred
Uh, you do know that Hampsten had his jaw reworked, don't you?
B. Lafferty
Uh, you know Hampsten had dental/jaw problems from childhood, don't you?
Mark
>
> Brian. We only have "better drugs" now. It never, ever has been
> "sport". One reason why I don't agree with draconian sanctions;
> another is, like the death penalty, the deterrence factor is arguable.
> There is no rosy past to return to in the first place; in fact, maybe
> (<g>)we're better off without riders resorting to strychnine, ether,
> alcohol, etc.
>
"The image of undistorted nature arises only in distortion, as its
opposite."
Theodor Adorno. Minima moralia: reflections on a damaged life.
z, fred
I do, but you sweep with a broad broom.