OT: Libya
Kurgan Gringioni
supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition.
RicodJour
>
> I hope that someone has called in the "Lord of War" and they're covertly
> supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition.
Hope is a good thing. Your stance - Dumbassian. Things are not
nearly so simple.
R
Fred Fredburger
Gadhafi is a douchebag. What's complicated about that?
Kurgan Gringioni
"RicodJour" <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:eb540cdc-b025-4506...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
Covertly, they can do whatever and get away with it.
Overtly, things are not so simple.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
RicodJour
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> On Mar 6, 2:44 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I hope that someone has called in the "Lord of War" and they're covertly
> > supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition.
>
> :: Hope is a good thing. Your stance - Dumbassian. Things are not
> :: nearly so simple.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Covertly, they can do whatever and get away with it.
>
> Overtly, things are not so simple.
It is not a question, Lord Dumbass, of whether it can be done, but
whether your hoping for it to be done is a wise thing to blow a wish
on. You only get three.
Supplying weapons to insurgents/rebels/freedom fighters could easily
turn the place into another Afghanistan once Qua/Ka/Daffy is outta
there.
R
Kurgan Gringioni
Dumbass -
Afghanistan became what it was because the West ignored it after the
Russians left.
Libya won't be ignored. It's got a lot of oil.
RicodJour
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:3b07b65f-f38c-4150...@t19g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 6, 1:07 pm, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
> > On Mar 6, 2:44 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I hope that someone has called in the "Lord of War" and they're covertly
> > > supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition.
>
> > :: Hope is a good thing. Your stance - Dumbassian. Things are not
> > :: nearly so simple.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Covertly, they can do whatever and get away with it.
>
> > Overtly, things are not so simple.
>
> :: It is not a question, Lord Dumbass, of whether it can be done, but
> :: whether your hoping for it to be done is a wise thing to blow a wish
> :: on. You only get three.
> ::
> :: Supplying weapons to insurgents/rebels/freedom fighters could easily
> :: turn the place into another Afghanistan once Qua/Ka/Daffy is outta
> :: there.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Afghanistan became what it was because the West ignored it after the
> Russians left.
>
> Libya won't be ignored. It's got a lot of oil.
Oh, well then, it's all settled. Glad you worked it out. I guess
we'll just model it on Iraq, then. Easy peasy.
R
Kurgan Gringioni
Dumbass -
Not at all. Iraq had its "democracy" forced upon it by a foreign power. No
legitimacy there.
In Libya, it's a grass roots indigenous movement. Very legitimate.
I want to see the Libyan rebels get armed so it's somewhat of a fair fight.
They're going up against tanks and planes with no anti-tank weapons and no
anti-aircraft weapons. Since the rebels are getting control of the oil,
they're probably working something out, but that might take some time. In
the meantime, allow Lord of War (private black market arms dealer) to do his
job.
Ben Trovato
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:eb540cdc-b025-4506...@k10g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 6, 2:44 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I hope that someone has called in the "Lord of War" and they're covertly
> > supplying the rebels with small arms and ammunition.
>
> :: Hope is a good thing. Your stance - Dumbassian. Things are not
> :: nearly so simple.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Covertly, they can do whatever and get away with it.
>
> Overtly, things are not so simple.
>
Just send the SAS.
Ryan Cousineau
Kurgan Gringioni
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bea0346-8f47-4911...@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
My suggested course of action isn't to force an outcome. It's to make it a
fair fight. The rebels need guns and ammunition. The rest of it (the hard
part) is up to them, not us. And if the rebels can't do it with adequate
arms, then by the standards of the Middle East, Ghaddafi would deserve to
stay in power.
They don't teach you critical thinking up there in the 51st state do they?
Ben Trovato
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
All the reports I've read (Al-Jazeera, NYT, New Yorker, Le Monde)
indicate that the "rebels" have plenty of weapons from the arms depots
they've pilfered (the ones they haven't accidentally blown up). And
apparently they got a few more from those SAS guys (those chaps
deserve to share an award with Raymond Davis for most ludicrous
attempt at an imperialist adventure; we could call it the Ollie). They
even have radios. What the rebels seem to need most is training in
proper operation thereof, since right now they're going on the
principle of shoot wildly and perform random acts of violence.
Enthusiasm can only take you so far. The whole business is turning
into the fight scene from Rashomon.
RicodJour
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> First World, be they special, moral, military, or other, are capable of
> intervening to consistently force outcomes, be they ones favorable to
> national interests or moral principles, is not proven.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> My suggested course of action isn't to force an outcome. It's to make it a
> fair fight. The rebels need guns and ammunition. The rest of it (the hard
> part) is up to them, not us. And if the rebels can't do it with adequate
> arms, then by the standards of the Middle East, Ghaddafi would deserve to
> stay in power.
>
> They don't teach you critical thinking up there in the 51st state do they?
By definition, a fair fight is where other people stay out of it.
That is not the same thing as 'fair'. Fair is a subjective term, and
you are subjecting me to your subjectivity and expecting me to be
objective (ie - ignore) about your subjectivity.
I would also posit, mon ferret, that any revolution worth its salt can
wage said revolution from the underdog position on their own behalf.
Democracy just means "we have more guns/guys than you do". That's why
Texas talks tough.
R
Steven Bornfeld
> The generalized theory that, with the best of intentions the forces of the First World, be they special, moral, military, or other, are capable of intervening to consistently force outcomes, be they ones favorable to national interests or moral principles, is not proven.
Best of intentions? If that were so, wouldn't we be in Myanmar?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Ryan Cousineau
I have a personal rooting interest: I want the rebels to win. The First World's diplomatic interests seem to favor the rebels. But it is too soon to tell.
It's also not clear that, for a lot of reasons, military help for the rebels would in the long term make for a more stable regime. After all, they would always then be seen as the beholden friends of the USA*, and that may or may not help them in the post-revolutionary phase. Maybe the US intervention would embolden and galvanize the Ghaddafians, and draw foreign insurgents into the country. That's never happened before has it?
Or maybe helping them WOULD transform Libya into a loyal client state, and the example and mentorship of the US would push the country into a realm of low corruption, fair elections, good education, and economic growth. It's hard to say.
It's different this time, unless it's not,
*Understand the USA as a proxy for the First World here, a point not always true or well understood by the rest of the First World, but as a proud citizen of America Junior, I know my place.
Ryan Cousineau
Myanmar is not about liberating Nobelists, it's about finding a way for Myanmar to become South Korea, or maybe Taiwan, or at least Indonesia.
Never forget, as a simplest point, that dictators do not rule alone. They have managed to create a coalition of force and influence that leads people to obey. The calculus can range all over the map: Hong Kong was ruled undemocratically for 50 years with no more political bloodshed and social repression than the average western democracy, and with much better economic outcomes. Cambodia was ruled by the Khmer Rouge for about six years, and they killed roughly 1/8 of the population. Libya? Somewhere in between.
If you ran the zoo, and decided that Myanmar delenda est, (and as is the modern philosophy, we're not conquering for tribute or self-defense, but liberating Burma for the Burmese people) how would you do it? What bold step, using politically feasible methods and powers available to the POTUS or State or USG or the Chiefs of Staff, or the CIA, or whatever, would you use to free the people from their painful yoke, while minimizing death and destruction?
RicodJour
Delenda est? I know you're probably referring to the old Roman quote,
but just maybe you have another agenda entirely...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-of-Delenda-Est.PNG
This from that article:
"most developments are arrived at through ad hoc tinkering (there is
no scientific methodology of empirically testing rigorous theories)"
I think you'd _like_ that, you scientific-method hating ad hoc-erer!*
R
* Could you imagine the state of the world's beer supply if the
Vikings ran things? Obviously there would be the death penalty for
light beer under the Treason-Blasphemer-Fookin' Idiots Act.
Scott
What, the SAS has radios, but pro racing can't use radios? Now THAT
is unfair.
Kurgan Gringioni
On Mar 7, 2:32 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> The generalized theory that, with the best of intentions the forces of the
> First World, be they special, moral, military, or other, are capable of
> intervening to consistently force outcomes, be they ones favorable to
> national interests or moral principles, is not proven.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> My suggested course of action isn't to force an outcome. It's to make it a
> fair fight. The rebels need guns and ammunition. The rest of it (the hard
> part) is up to them, not us. And if the rebels can't do it with adequate
> arms, then by the standards of the Middle East, Ghaddafi would deserve to
> stay in power.
>
> They don't teach you critical thinking up there in the 51st state do they?
:: By definition, a fair fight is where other people stay out of it.
:: That is not the same thing as 'fair'. Fair is a subjective term, and
:: you are subjecting me to your subjectivity and expecting me to be
:: objective (ie - ignore) about your subjectivity.
Dumbass -
West of Benghazi is where the Germans and Allies fought numerous tank
battles in WW2. The terrain is not conducive to a force that is lacking in
arms. It's desert. There's no cover. How would the rebels advance on Tripoli
without getting destroyed by bombinb/strafing from warplanes? The answer is:
without proper anti-aircraft weaponry, they will not be able to do it.
Willpower and enthusiasm or even the best of training cannot help any
soldier in that situation.
RicodJour
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
So along with supplying arms, you'd like to supply military strategy
and logistics. How very Bush-ian of you.
R
Kurgan Gringioni
"Ben Trovato" <benn.t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bc7434d-84b4-4694...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
Ghadaffi's forces aren't well organized either.
But they do have planes and tanks. The rebels need some anti-tank and
anti-aircraft weapons. If they don't get that stuff, they're sitting ducks
on the desert road to Tripoli. The best anti-tank and anti-air shoulder
fired missiles these days are easy to operate, they're point and shoot, just
like instamatic cameras.
Kurgan Gringioni
"Ben Trovato" <benn.t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bc7434d-84b4-4694...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
Ghadaffi's forces aren't well organized either.
But they do have planes and tanks. The rebels need some anti-tank and
anti-aircraft weapons. If they don't get that stuff, they're sitting ducks
on the desert road to Tripoli. The best anti-tank and anti-air shoulder
fired missiles these days are easy to operate, they're point and shoot, just
like instamatic cameras.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Kurgan Gringioni
"Ben Trovato" <benn.t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3bc7434d-84b4-4694...@y36g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
Ghadaffi's forces aren't well organized either.
But they do have planes and tanks. The rebels need some anti-tank and
anti-aircraft weapons. If they don't get that stuff, they're sitting ducks
on the desert road to Tripoli. The best anti-tank and anti-air shoulder
fired missiles these days are easy to operate, they're point and shoot, just
like instamatic cameras.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Kurgan Gringioni
Dumbass -
No, just arms. And only one who is becomming more than a bit closed minded
in a discussion would consider that analysis to be "supplying strategy and
logistics". Its just basic knowledge of history. Rommel and Patton have
already shown us what does and does not work in that terrain.
Currently, the rebels cannot advance on Tripoli. It's why some of them are
asking for a no-fly zone (I don't favor that, only favor giving them arms).
Ben Trovato
> "Ben Trovato" <benn.trov...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113743018682425.html
Fred Flintstein
> Dumbass -
>
> No, just arms. And only one who is becomming more than a bit closed minded in a discussion would consider that analysis to be "supplying strategy and logistics". Its just basic knowledge of history.
> Rommel and Patton have already shown us what does and does not work in that terrain.
>
> Currently, the rebels cannot advance on Tripoli. It's why some of them are asking for a no-fly zone (I don't favor that, only favor giving them arms).
>
> thanks,
>
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass,
If the rebels can tie Gadhafi to Wiesel and Ochowicz then
Novitsky will rip him to shreds. His regime will be toast
by Tuesday. Can't say which Tuesday, but it'll be a Tuesday.
Fred Flintstein
Kurgan Gringioni
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113743018682425.html
And?
Kurgan Gringioni
"Fred Flintstein" <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote in message
news:8OadnbVDrdaHGujQ...@giganews.com...
Dumbass -
Ghadaffi will be arrested as soon as the bike race he's in crosses into
France!
Ben Trovato
You might have noticed rebels with the rpgs, rockets, anti-aircraft
guns, heavy mgs, etc... just not able to use them very well against
the brotherly leader's aircraft.
Fred
> "Fred Flintstein" <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote in message
No, Italy, dumbass...
Fred
Ryan Cousineau
If you're going to pick a side (and believe me, I like picking sides, waging wars, liberating countries, etc., but I've morosely concluded that the only liberation worth much is a self-made one) why not go whole hog? The US forces are roughly 24 hours from establishing absolute air supremacy over all of Libya, and days more from reducing every military machine more visible or less movable than a tank to scrap, and from killing the rest of Gaddafi's adopted children the moment they get their address. Then you declare Tripoli a free-fire zone and announce in advance which square miles you'll be eliminating by airstrikes each day until Gaddafi is presented, dead or alive, at the gates of the city as a show of good faith.
FOR ALL THE GOOD IT WOULD DO! Would it do any good? It's not even a rhetorical question.
If you're going to pick sides, though, pick a damned side, stick with it, and support them for real. Candy-ass half measures make you look like an inept war profiteer will only ensure more and more violent deaths in the transition period and half-cowed losers.
And that attitude, by the way, is why I don't much like warmongering anymore. I'm not attributing it to anyone but me.
Fairly matched forces are the ideal recipe for a war of attrition to the last able man,
Ryan Cousineau
But no, just quoting Cato.
With regard to the beer, I have been under the impression that weirdo taxation has made the Viking states the realm of hard liquor. I don't object, though I have been drinking a Russian Imperial Stout for the last two days that has 11.8% ABV and a taste reminiscent of port, or chocolate, or the love of a good woman. Singularity: highly recommended, if you can afford it.
*well, I like him when I can tell him apart from Frederik Pohl, who I also like.
RicodJour
>
> I wish I was awesome enough to be clever enough to reference a Poul Anderson* short story, not least because I like Anderson, and am surprised I've never heard of that story before.
>
> But no, just quoting Cato.
There are worse vices.
> With regard to the beer, I have been under the impression that weirdo taxation has made the Viking states the realm of hard liquor. I don't object, though I have been drinking a Russian Imperial Stout for the last two days that has 11.8% ABV and a taste reminiscent of port, or chocolate, or the love of a good woman. Singularity: highly recommended, if you can afford it.
>
I don't know if I can afford to have it imported - doesn't seem to be
available in my neck of the woods, but I'll keep my eyes open for it.
Took a girlfriend to lunch and she had an Augustiner Munich, which she
loved, and that saddened me. It means that when I go over there now I
can expect to find it in the refrig and it wasn't that good. Compared
to the light beer she normally drinks, it was a complex tasty beer.
To me it was a step up from a PBR. Sigh.
> *well, I like him when I can tell him apart from Frederik Pohl, who I also like.
The name's familiar. Did he race in Philly?
R
Simply Fred
> If the rebels can tie Gadhafi to Wiesel and Ochowicz then
> Novitsky will rip him to shreds. His regime will be toast
> by Tuesday. Can't say which Tuesday, but it'll be a Tuesday.
1) Well one of his sons played for Juventus (probably because daddy owns
(owned ?) a large number of shares in said Juventus).
2) Juventus had a doctor who injected all the players with EPO
<http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article396203.ece>.
3) Therefore Gadhafi's son did EPO
4) Therefore Gadhafi's son must have links with LANCE.
5) LANCE has links to Wiesel and Ochowicz.
Consider Gadhafi toast as soon as Novitsky can get out of the Washington
hotel, Spitzer told him about.
Simply Fred
> Took a girlfriend to lunch and she had an Augustiner Munich
Is she fat ?
Kurgan Gringioni
>
> > But they do have planes and tanks. The rebels need some anti-tank and
> > anti-aircraft weapons. If they don't get that stuff, they're sitting
> > ducks
> > on the desert road to Tripoli. The best anti-tank and anti-air shoulder
> > fired missiles these days are easy to operate, they're point and shoot,
> > just
> > like instamatic cameras.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>
> http://english.aljazeera.net/video/africa/2011/03/20113743018682425.html
>
> And?
:: You might have noticed rebels with the rpgs, rockets, anti-aircraft
:: guns, heavy mgs, etc... just not able to use them very well against
:: the brotherly leader's aircraft.
Dumbass -
Those are WW2 era anti-aircraft weaponry and mostly ineffective vs. modern
jets. The jets move too fast, it's highly unlikely that stuff can get a hit.
They need smart munitions.
Remember the videos of the massive amount of ordnance going up into the air
behind Bernard Shaw on CNN in Baghdad at night at the beginning of the 1991
Gulf War? They didn't make a single hit.
Simply Fred
> Those are WW2 era anti-aircraft weaponry and mostly ineffective vs.
> modern jets. The jets move too fast, it's highly unlikely that stuff can
> get a hit. They need smart munitions.
RicodJour
> "Ben Trovato" <benn.trov...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> > > anti-aircraft weapons. If they don't get that stuff, they're sitting
> > > ducks
> > > on the desert road to Tripoli. The best anti-tank and anti-air shoulder
> > > fired missiles these days are easy to operate, they're point and shoot,
> > > just
> > > like instamatic cameras.
>
>
> > And?
>
> :: You might have noticed rebels with the rpgs, rockets, anti-aircraft
> :: guns, heavy mgs, etc... just not able to use them very well against
> :: the brotherly leader's aircraft.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Those are WW2 era anti-aircraft weaponry and mostly ineffective vs. modern
> jets. The jets move too fast, it's highly unlikely that stuff can get a hit.
> They need smart munitions.
>
> Remember the videos of the massive amount of ordnance going up into the air
> behind Bernard Shaw on CNN in Baghdad at night at the beginning of the 1991
> Gulf War? They didn't make a single hit.
WTF? Did you buy some Halliburton and Raytheon to flesh out your
portfolio?
Stop shilling and resume your normal trolling. :)~
R
Kurgan Gringioni
"Simply Fred" <no...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
news:plgi48-...@donaldm.homeip.net...
Dumbass -
Yep.
Simply Fred
> WTF? Did you buy some Halliburton and Raytheon to flesh out your
> portfolio?
Dick Cheney Likes This.
Fred Fredburger
Gadhaffi only did it because Lance forced him to. If he didn't have to
compete with Lance he woulda been Gandhi!
Fred Fredburger
Kurgan Gringioni
"Fred Fredburger" <Fr...@Burger.com> wrote in message
news:4d78...@news.x-privat.org...
Dumbass -
Sweet!!
That is what I'm talking about!
Without armor, they've gotta neutralize his air superiority if they're to
have a fighting chance.
RicodJour
> "Fred Fredburger" <F...@Burger.com> wrote in message
>
> > Also:
> >http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2011/03/09/Egypt-aids-Libyan-rebe...
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Sweet!!
>
> That is what I'm talking about!
<translate> Yay! People gonna die! </translate>
> Without armor, they've gotta neutralize his air superiority if they're to
> have a fighting chance.
What's the over/under? It sounds like you have some inside
information - any tips?
R
Kurgan Gringioni
On Mar 10, 12:51 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <F...@Burger.com> wrote in message
>
> > Also:
> >http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2011/03/09/Egypt-aids-Libyan-rebe...
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Sweet!!
>
> That is what I'm talking about!
<translate> Yay! People gonna die! </translate>
Dumbass -
That is a risk they seem to be very willing to make.
When a regime like that (one that was shooting peaceful protesters) refuses
to go peacefully, unfortunately, violence is the only option. It is
something that has happened countless times in the past and will continue to
happen in the future. Regrettably, Francis Fukuyama was wrong about "the end
of history".
Ryan Cousineau
> On Mar 7, 2:32 am, "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgrin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > The generalized theory that, with the best of intentions the forces of the
> > First World, be they special, moral, military, or other, are capable of
> > intervening to consistently force outcomes, be they ones favorable to
> > national interests or moral principles, is not proven.
> >
> > Dumbass -
> >
> > My suggested course of action isn't to force an outcome. It's to make it a
> > fair fight. The rebels need guns and ammunition. The rest of it (the hard
> > part) is up to them, not us. And if the rebels can't do it with adequate
> > arms, then by the standards of the Middle East, Ghaddafi would deserve to
> > stay in power.
> >
> > They don't teach you critical thinking up there in the 51st state do they?
>
> That is not the same thing as 'fair'. Fair is a subjective term, and
> you are subjecting me to your subjectivity and expecting me to be
> objective (ie - ignore) about your subjectivity.
It's sick to revive a grossly OT political discussion, but now that Stainless has his way and more (heeding reports of how the no-fly zone has become a "no-fly, no-tank, no-attack-benghazi zone"), I'd like to know what he thinks.
I am of course fairly happy* that the no-fly zone seems much closer to my model of "pick a side, bomb all their plausibly military assets, then do pre-announced retributive bombing on a block-by-block basis of pro-Kaddafi regions" for ending the civil war as swiftly and painlessly as possible**, though alas the idea of re-conquering and administering Libya as a colony (The US would probably have to conquer it, but in light of historic allegiances, they could turn it over to the EU, or just Italy) seems to be a non-starter***.
*for perverted, warmongering values of happy
**not actually expected to be super-swift or notably painless.
***psychotic, yes, but in line with the broad academic sentiment that institutions, rule of law, and infrastructure are more important than balloting for creating good governance. OTOH, the variance on non-democracies tends to be very high. And yes, Chung, starting conditions, though that never seems to bother people much when talking about school performance.
Anton Berlin
> "RicodJour" <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote in message
The US of A have let a lot of innocents get mowed down - the
difference this one has oil and we look like hypocrites not letting
the islamic democracy take over.
We're fucked either way maybe the bombing will prop up the stock
market for a few weeks
Scott
What Islamic democracy?