Not a good day for the Rainbow Jersey
--D-y
Classics.
Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
Good for van Summeren; a fine reward for work done for others, but
this was negative racing meant not to win, or meant *less* to win,
than to try to prevent another (aptly nicknamed Spartacus) from
winning. I mean to say, tacticss that don't exactly smell good even at
the WNCS, in the Cat 5's.
IMHO
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
> This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
> Classics.
> Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
dumbass,
since cycling is a team sport hushovd also won, so it was a good day
for him.
next time post your noobie analysis on the cyclingnews forums where it
belongs.
--D-y
First USCF license in 1980. First sewups in '72.
Comments stand. Negative teamwork to defeat a stronger opponent--
somewhat stinky but fine, except for having the Rainbow Jersey on his
back.
"Team orders" are no justification.
Since you're such an expert, you'll remember who the rider was who
went back for LANCE's water bottles while he (the team rider) was
wearing the Yellow Jersey in the Tour de France, and the large amount
of well-deserved flak LANCE & Co. got for dishonoring the Yellow
Jersey from the Press (mostly composed of long-time followers of
bicycle racing and the Tour de France).
I post here when I want and as I want, just like everyone else, and
just like I always have.
If you want to disagree with opinion stated here-- and clearly labeled
as such-- I suggest you do so minus the name-calling and attempted
bullying. Up to you!
--D-y
Fred
Gotta disagree here. Up until Thor couldn't follow the last
acceleration w/ 3km to go, Garmin-Cervelo were executing perfect
tactics, and Thor himself did exactly what he was supposed to do. The
team put a man out front to help if/when he caught up, and when it was
apparent that the catch wasn't coming, they let him ride away from the
break to force Cancellara and others to work even harder.
What would you, if you were to put on your DS hat, have had him do,
trade pulls w/ Cancellara to 'prove' he was stronger? Boonen tried it
last year at Flanders, it failed. Thor would've failed at it, too.
Fred
Simply Fred
>> This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
>> Classics.
>> Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
Fred wrote:
> Gotta disagree here. Up until Thor couldn't follow the last
> acceleration w/ 3km to go, Garmin-Cervelo were executing perfect
> tactics, and Thor himself did exactly what he was supposed to do. The
> team put a man out front to help if/when he caught up, and when it was
> apparent that the catch wasn't coming, they let him ride away from the
> break to force Cancellara and others to work even harder.
>
> What would you, if you were to put on your DS hat, have had him do,
> trade pulls w/ Cancellara to 'prove' he was stronger? Boonen tried it
> last year at Flanders, it failed. Thor would've failed at it, too.
It would have been entertaining if Boonen and/or Chavanel had been there
too.
Uncle Dave
> This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
> Classics.
> Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
Nonsense. He tried to escape a couple of times on the pave before
Cancellera started jumping about. He was probably spent by the time
Cancellera started complaining - understandably - about him not
working in the group. If anything, he was a victim today - he looked
strong all day.
UD
Amit Ghosh
> First USCF license in 1980. First sewups in '72.
>
> Comments stand. Negative teamwork to defeat a stronger opponent--
> somewhat stinky but fine, except for having the Rainbow Jersey on his
> back.
> "Team orders" are no justification.
dumbass,
so, you're old you and still have an amateur perspective.
check the PR start list. are there solo riders registered ? no you can
only compete in professional cycling as a team - because it is a team
sport. since his team won it is just as if he had won. so it was a
good day for him.
Mike Owens
I thought it was a terrible mistake on Garmin's part to let 30 riders
go up the road after Orchies. It's one thing to have a strongman like
van Summeren and another team mate up the road in a group of 10 but
there was no way the Hushovd group (with more Garmin riders) are going
to catch a group that big that far up the road without helping. At
that time, it was probably best for Garmin to work Hushovd to the
front for a sprint finish knowing Boonen wasn't going to be there.
-Mike
Amit Ghosh
> I thought it was a terrible mistake on Garmin's part to let 30 riders
> go up the road after Orchies.
dumbass,
they won the race.
if you're going to make the argument that a team made a tactical
mistake pick a race they didn't win. it will be a lot easier.
Mike Owens
My name is Mike.
They hadn't won the race yet. It was also a mistake for Cancellera to
let 30 riders go up the road without him.
-Mike
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbass,
Van Summeren didn't get a reward for work done for
others. He got a reward for being first across the line
after being in the right place at the right time.
It's bogus to blame a team for racing not to win when
they won the race. Especially when they were helped
by having a lot of guys near the head of the race, and
good tactics.
What's really bogus about blaming Garmin for negative
racing is that it's not as if they attacked to prevent a
break from winning (what "negative racing" often is in
US crit-monkey terms). They won out of the front group
for fucksakes! Nobody is under an obligation to Cancellara
to help bring him up to the front group if he didn't put
himself there.
Yesterday Anorexic Drew Carey was a guy with bad
sideburns and questionable suits, today he's a genius,
three months from now he might be a monkey again.
That's the way the puncture flattens.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
"Jumping about"? Why denigrate? He's (Cancellara) "on the short list",
if he wasn't the absolute strongest. And even after the marking, he
got second. o
The coverage I saw was very sketchy today, lots of stops and starts
especially in the latter part of the race. I tried other feeds but the
good one I found was delayed by several minutes and I hoped for the
best (that they'd fix) so I could see it in real time. Should have
switched, which is all to say I missed a fair amount incl. Hushovd
attacks. I'll take your word for those, and guess Thor was hammered
like you said (not to put words in your mouth except to pun). He maybe
should have made a financial arrangement to cultivate attacking
allies-- I just saw far too much "resting" and not much aggression.
They did show Thor's fall from last year, and he had a hairy moment
again this year when he tried to follow Cancellara around a corner.
Thor knows who his daddy is, I'm guessing.
In my newbie opinion, the true "curse" of the Rainbow Jersey is not
"luck", but being expected to defend it on every outing. Comes with
the territory, and the comments stand-- Thor's ride today was that of
a team worker, while the team worker was "given" the race.
If Cancellara didn't look too disappointed on the second step of the
podium at the end of today's race, well, he's Spartacus, and he's
getting used to being crucified by forces with superiority only in
numbers. What an effort to blaze up there and get that second spot!
Again IMHO, overshadows all but that of Van Summeren.
IMHO
--D-y
--D-y
> On Apr 10, 10:28 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
> > Classics.
> > Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
> > Good for van Summeren; a fine reward for work done for others, but
> > this was negative racing meant not to win, or meant *less* to win,
> > than to try to prevent another (aptly nicknamed Spartacus) from
> > winning. I mean to say, tacticss that don't exactly smell good even at
> > the WNCS, in the Cat 5's.
> > IMHO
> > --D-y
>
> Gotta disagree here. Up until Thor couldn't follow the last
> acceleration w/ 3km to go, Garmin-Cervelo were executing perfect
> tactics, and Thor himself did exactly what he was supposed to do. The
> team put a man out front to help if/when he caught up, and when it was
> apparent that the catch wasn't coming, they let him ride away from the
> break to force Cancellara and others to work even harder.
Agreed, in sum. Maybe Thor should have quick pulled on a team jersey,
once they got their late- race strategy figured out?
>
> What would you, if you were to put on your DS hat, have had him do,
> trade pulls w/ Cancellara to 'prove' he was stronger? Boonen tried it
> last year at Flanders, it failed. Thor would've failed at it, too.
No, not "trade pulls". Get help from others if possible and attack.
Recognizing that when faced with far superior strength, sometimes
every/anything you do just plays into the hands of the enemy.
Thor spent far too much time taking a sleigh ride in the Rainbow
Jersey.
IMHO
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
> No, not "trade pulls". Get help from others if possible and attack.
> Recognizing that when faced with far superior strength, sometimes
> every/anything you do just plays into the hands of the enemy.
dumbass,
this is a common proposal but it never happens. different teams never
work together efficiently to pull back a break, especially in a 1 day
race, because they can't share a win.
> Thor spent far too much time taking a sleigh ride in the Rainbow
> Jersey.
all the riders in PR are pros hence they don't have to prove
themselves of show off how strong they are. if he attacks or goes to
the front it has to make sense.
the point of putting a guy in the break is that you don't have to
work. for this to work the rider has to be a credible threat to win if
they let him go, which is what happened today.
Amit Ghosh
> My name is Mike.
dumbass,
it's nothing personal, have a thicker skin.
> They hadn't won the race yet. It was also a mistake for Cancellera to
> let 30 riders go up the road without him.
yes, also not having teammates hosed him. one strong guy with him
would've made the difference.
Uncle Dave
> On Apr 10, 1:05 pm, Uncle Dave <davidco...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 10, 4:28 pm, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
> > > Classics.
> > > Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
>
> > Nonsense. He tried to escape a couple of times on the pave before
> > Cancellera started jumping about. He was probably spent by the time
> > Cancellera started complaining - understandably - about him not
> > working in the group. If anything, he was a victim today - he looked
> > strong all day.
>
> "Jumping about"? Why denigrate?
I wasn't. You are *jumping* to conclusions. Did you not notice him
jumping then? I did. Several times. Great stuff too.
UD
Ben Trovato
wrote:
What Cancellara said to L'Equipe [my translations]:
"Hushovd and Ballan weren't thinking about winning. They said to
themselves: 'I'm with Cancellara, I'm not going to take any pulls."
So I had to play poker: I couldn't drag Hushovd and Ballan to the
finish line. In that context, second place is like a win. I'm
satisfied with myself. I couldn't do anything else. I couldn't go
any faster, I would have needed a third leg in the finale."
[...]
"The Garmin racers played their cards intelligently, and you've got to
accept things as they are."
[...]
"... a winner like Johan is great for cycling. He got up this morning
thinking 'I'm going to work for the team.' And then he wins,
brilliant."
Ben Trovato
What Van Summeren told L'Equipe:
"I had Thor behind, I knew I could help him if he came back. But I
immediately felt I was the strongest in the breakaway. I was telling
myself: 'save your strength, save your strength'. Bak attacked 20 Km
from the finish, and I followed him, but Jonathan was telling me in
the earpiece, 'wait until the carrefour de l'arbre.' From there, I
raced for myself. I accelerated through the sector, and when I looked
around at the exit, there was nobody."
[...]
[on seeing Hushovd after the finish]: "He said he was happy for me. I
replied that there were still a lot of races where I'd be working for
him."
Frederick the Great
<f63b38a4-b67c-46e9...@gu8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
So? Where was Cancellara's team?
Oh. They did not see this coming.
> IMHO
I do not believe you.
--
Old Fritz
--D-y
> In article
> <f63b38a4-b67c-46e9-b397-1f9d9e6a8...@gu8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
>
> --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > This isn't the Wednesday Night Crit series, it's the Queen of the
> > Classics.
> > Hushovd did not ride like a champion, but a team worker.
> > Good for van Summeren; a fine reward for work done for others, but
> > this was negative racing meant not to win, or meant *less* to win,
> > than to try to prevent another (aptly nicknamed Spartacus) from
> > winning. I mean to say, tacticss that don't exactly smell good even at
> > the WNCS, in the Cat 5's.
>
> So? Where was Cancellara's team?
Around 72k to go, section 14, they were bringing the bunch up toward
the front two groups, the first of which had the winner, Van Summeren,
in it. "Bringing Cancellara into contention".
> Oh. They did not see this coming.
Who knows what they "saw" or what happened to them, with all the
straight-line crashes and mechanicals.
> > IMHO
>
> I do not believe you.
Believe me about what?
--D-y
sam
@f18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, amit....@gmail.com says...
Exactly. Where was his team?
s
Frederick the Great
<157c7486-e4cc-4063...@l39g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
Cancellara was marked man before the race.
Their team tactics were insufficient.
Contrast Armstrong when he was a marked man.
Postal--Discovery shredded the opposition.
> > > IMHO
> >
> > I do not believe you.
>
> Believe me about what?
That you forwarded you opinion humbly.
--
Old Fritz
--D-y
Oh, I was humble enough at the offering... I'm just not shy about
poking back when I feel it's deserved.
Noting, George Hincapie, he who is regularly skewered as a failure,
faggot, etc. etc. here on this ng, was there for Lance's
steamrollering, if such it was.
Also noting, Lance and his team enjoyed the best coaching money could
buy.
From the very limited coverage I was able to see and understand (big
start-stop problems with the Euro feed, as noted previously),
Cancellara's team did some work to get him "up there", I believe
around k72. Certainly, he was the most marked man in the peloton.
So very fitting that he was proud in "defeat" and generous in his
congratulations-- but did the pointing at himself after speaking to
Van Summeren really mean "Don't kid yourself about who the top dog is
around here!"?
This is afterthought, but pertains to honoring the Rainbow Jersey: I
read words by Eddy Merckx that winning Paris-Roubaix while in the
Rainbow Jersey was a true confirmation for a pro racer. IOW, Hushovd
and his bosses in the cars should have been thinking about using an
opportunity they will likely never have again.
And where did Hushovd finish after that sleighride? Saving himself for
the next race?
Yeah, Hushovd should have turned himself inside out & died, like
Spartacus did. And still got second. I loved the final attack by Mr.
C-- no more Mr. Smooth! A brutal (especially considering the miles and
pace already achieved) stand up and slam it, go for glory *attack*,
which always raises the, um, panache of the chasers, if they have any
left of course.
Still just an opinion. I did see Hushovd at the front, here and there,
but I think he was blocking. He definitely was at one point on a
cobbled section where he had Cancellara pinned behind him in a two-up.
Again, all praise to Van Summeren who responded beautifully to this
opportunity, totally took care of bizness on the way to the line, and
proposed to his longtime girlfriend right after the race. Now he'll be
a double threat as a team worker, although he may never get to ride up
the road ever again <g>. That can be used tactically, too, of course.
--D-y
Anton Berlin
I'm god damn ashamed to be associated with this group of cacklin hens
sam
@z31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>, truth...@yahoo.com says...
>
> ever !
>
> I'm god damn ashamed to be associated with this group of cacklin hens
So how many hours of the day do you spend sniffing at your inferiors?
s
RicodJour
>
> Again, all praise to Van Summeren who responded beautifully to this
> opportunity, totally took care of bizness on the way to the line, and
> proposed to his longtime girlfriend right after the race. Now he'll be
> a double threat as a team worker, although he may never get to ride up
> the road ever again <g>. That can be used tactically, too, of course.
This is the only part with which I agree with what you've written in
this thread. I see no point in arguing who shoulda/woulda/coulda been
first loser or fifth. Van Summeren took the race. Whatever happened,
happened behind him.
It was a beautiful day, sufficient carnage, lots of caginess, and the
good guy won. It was a beautiful day.
R
--D-y
Well, I guess I'm being "catty" here (not, IMHO) but I don't think
there's much argument IRT who "won" "first loser" <g>.
Yes, Van Summeren took that race like a big dog.
No one has yet argued the point that Hushovd, Rainbow Jersey and all,
made a noble sacrifice in a very big race for a teammate who has made
a career out of working for others-- however much better suited,
personality-wise, Van Summeren might be for the role of domestique
over carrying the pressure of being a star rider.
Well, as Cancellara said, in a broad sense perhaps you "can't change
conditions" and this is the way it all worked out.
This is bike racing and "first loser", happily, is not always in
force. That's not just MHO, either, and that's one of the things that
drew me into "my sport" way back when. The good rides are noted and
rewarded.
--D-y
Frederick the Great
--D-y
Or, Dorkburns could have ordered his team to support the Rainbow
Jersey. Even with the negative racing, that gap between 1rst and 2nd
was small, and Van Summeren did not sit up until very late.
IOW, IMHO, Van Summeren was rewarded; remember how Mr. Muttonchops-
wannabe made sure Hincapie didn't have his day in yellow?
<http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/tourdefrance/anger-as-hincapie-
denied-yellow-jersey--a-
hrefhttptourinfostradasportscomaspredirectinfairfax-touraspbmaps-and-
resultsba/2009/07/19/1247941810136.html?page=2>
(fairly long URL, no?)
Yes, that was the same day that a chickenshit complaint from... wait
for it... Hushovd! got Cavendish relegated, and cost him (Cavendish)
the Green Jersey.
1) No, I "don't like those guys", and 2) no surprise to see Vaughters
directing negative racing against a superior opponent. IMHO
Well, one good thing has happened over the last few years. Apparently
Vaughters' mom saw him on TV and found out where all her turtlenecks
had gone, and got them back.
(gratuitous, fun; don't like those guys & don't have to play fair!)
(don't have a cow, man)
--D-y
--D-y
On Apr 10, 2:15 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dumbass,
>
> Van Summeren didn't get a reward for work done for
> others. He got a reward for being first across the line
> after being in the right place at the right time.
I think "both". And from his team, and maybe (if I may humbly
presume), perhaps some well-earned karma? I mean, he's had a career of
being a good helper, and finally had a great day when he was doing
team duty, covering the front.
> It's bogus to blame a team for racing not to win when
> they won the race. Especially when they were helped
> by having a lot of guys near the head of the race, and
> good tactics.
Tactics and a lot of lucky, considering the number of straight-line
crashes in what would usually be considered fine conditions for P-R.
I never said they were racing not to win-- no no no, I said they were
racing so that Cancellara would lose. They were, too; that I'm not
gonna "IMHO" on. Luckily, Gourmand had a man up front who was able to
stay away, but only because Cancellara was so well marked (and marking
is negative racing, in my book; and you don't have to agree with the
definition).
> What's really bogus about blaming Garmin for negative
> racing is that it's not as if they attacked to prevent a
> break from winning (what "negative racing" often is in
> US crit-monkey terms). They won out of the front group
> for fucksakes! Nobody is under an obligation to Cancellara
> to help bring him up to the front group if he didn't put
> himself there.
One more time: Gormand could have brought the Rainbow Jersey to a
decision in the 'drome, easy enough. But, indeed, they were-- oh so
rightfully!-- afraid of Cancellara, even though (IMHO) Hushovd is a
stronger sprinter.
>
> Yesterday Anorexic Drew Carey was a guy with bad
> sideburns and questionable suits, today he's a genius,
> three months from now he might be a monkey again.
> That's the way the puncture flattens.
Well, the monkey suits will endure, as will the white trash facial
hair. Too far into it to give up now...
--D-y
Fred Flintstein
> Scuuuse me while I double reply (Huh!! Make it funky!!):
>
> On Apr 10, 2:15 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd<bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's really bogus about blaming Garmin for negative
>> racing is that it's not as if they attacked to prevent a
>> break from winning (what "negative racing" often is in
>> US crit-monkey terms). They won out of the front group
>> for fucksakes! Nobody is under an obligation to Cancellara
>> to help bring him up to the front group if he didn't put
>> himself there.
>
> One more time: Gormand could have brought the Rainbow Jersey to a
> decision in the 'drome, easy enough. But, indeed, they were-- oh so
> rightfully!-- afraid of Cancellara, even though (IMHO) Hushovd is a
> stronger sprinter.
Dude!
When a group gets away you want to have a rider in it, just in
case. In this case Garmin had a guy that had made the top ten
in P-R twice in the lead group. They were sitting in great
shape.
Leopard-Trek missed the boat. It was Cancellara's job to chase.
There was nothing negative about it, Garmin had earned a tactical
advantage and was beating Spartacus up with it.
This seems really simple.
Fred Flintstein
William Fred
news:MYOdnUjCsPtx9j7Q...@giganews.com:
>
> Dude!
>
> When a group gets away you want to have a rider in it, just in
> case. In this case Garmin had a guy that had made the top ten
> in P-R twice in the lead group. They were sitting in great
> shape.
>
> Leopard-Trek missed the boat. It was Cancellara's job to chase.
> There was nothing negative about it, Garmin had earned a tactical
> advantage and was beating Spartacus up with it.
>
> This seems really simple.
Isn't it one of the laws of usenet that the more obvious the inference or
simplicity of the explanation, the greater the resistance to it being
accepted as the most likely explanation of what happened being true? Let
me know if you need me to explain that to you a different way, because it
seems obvious to me.
--
Bill Fred
William Fred
news:dfdf4831-ed4e-4950...@32g2000vbe.googlegroups.com:
I think the Champs chop down from Hincapie came after that, so if Garmin
had let George wear yellow, we might not have seen the chop down, and
that was so perfect a move that I bet George would rather be remembered
for that than for riding one day in yellow where the one day was a gift
from Garmin.
Unless I got the chronology wrong and the champs chop came before the
yellow jersey thing, in which case I'll go along with everyone else and
say that both Vaughters and Hincapie are pussies and Vaughters should
have told Hushovd to ride as stupidly as Boonen because Boonen's plan
would have worked had someone besides Boonen tried it.
--
Bill Fred
--D-y
wrote:
I'll go for "gained"
> a tactical
> advantage and was beating Spartacus up with it.
They let a minor rider win one of the Monuments to keep from having
Cancellera win it, instead of giving one of their team leaders, the
current Worlds Champion, who is a sprinter, the opportunity to beat
Cancellara in the velodrome. You don't have to agree, that's negative
racing to me.
This all could have been set up quite easily, even very late in the
day. Give Cancellara a little help, make up the time gap with a little
show by Hushovd at the front here and there, and then the showdown of
big riders in the 'drome. Not the Vauggie style.
FWIW (nothing), I'm happy for Van Summeren. A big race on his
palmares, a fitting result for a toiler who took advantage of a very,
very rare opportunity. Not his fault that Vooters didn't want to honor
the Rainbow Jersey.
> This seems really simple.
Agreed, it seems pretty simple to me, too.
--D-y
Barry Taylor
news:6d3b957d-3192-41e1...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> FWIW (nothing), I'm happy for Van Summeren. A big race on his
> palmares, a fitting result for a toiler who took advantage of a very,
> very rare opportunity. Not his fault that Vooters didn't want to honor
> the Rainbow Jersey.
wots with the 'honor the Rainbow Jersey' shite ?
this is a bike race we're talking about
not some Miss Manners parlour game ...
>> This seems really simple.
> Agreed, it seems pretty simple to me, too.
--D-y
what is simple
is that the best rider on the day
won the race
full stop
and
end of story
-- ---
~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly
If you think you're too small to have
an impact, try going to bed with a
mosquito in the room. Johan Bruyneel.
derf...@gmail.com
the former national road champ shows up. Everyone scrambles to be on
his wheel all the time, but then no one is willing to work with him.
Often the lame excuse is offered ... "but my guy is up the road" ...
even though the odds of "my guy" actually winning are often slim to
none.
It's lame, but also understandable, because when you work with the
StrongMan, he will invariably end up attacking you and leaving you
behind. What often happens is he will then wait until the right
opportunity, attack, catch the break with your guy, then go past and
win anyway. Which Cancellara came reasonably close to doing.
In this case they gambled on "my guy" and won. At the time my thought
was 1 out of 17 is not good odds, I don't care how confident he is.
Garmin did finally put a guy on the front to chase at one point ... so
perhaps they thought that too, at least until Vansummeren escaped the
break.
Frederick the Great
<6d3b957d-3192-41e1...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
Negative racing is when the guy you want to win does not.
--
Old Fritz
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Luftmensch,
Nobody agrees with you. This is because you are
wrong.
I don't get this whole "let a minor rider win" and "honor the
Rainbow Jersey" opera you are conducting. For someone
who often likes to be on the side of the little guy, you are
spending a lot of time coming up with reasons you think the
race Van Summeren won was lesser or tainted. Sometimes
tactics dictate that a non-superstar wins a race. That's
actually one of the cool things about bike racing - on any
given Sunday, there are more than just 10 guys who can
dream about winning.
The Rainbow Jersey is a nice piece of kit, but it is not an
obligation to race bravely and stupidly. That means Hushovd
had no obligation to help bring Cancellara to the front
(chasing down Hushovd's own man), especially if he considered
Cance might TT away from him before they got to the
velodrome. Which is a significant risk since Paris-Roubaix
is often won by a powerful rider simply riding away from
his companions (van Petegem did that a few years ago).
Bike racing is tactical. That's why it helps to have good tactics,
teammates up the road in the break, and so on. The strongest
guy on the day doesn't always win if he's not in the right place,
doesn't follow the right move, etc. If this bothers you, watch
Ironman.
This isn't some kind of drama where Vaughters is going
around doing people dirt, like the petty thing with Hincapie.
If you want to hold a grudge against him for that, feel free.
For all I know, he is an asshole and kicks puppies, but
his team was in the right places on Sunday. Any other
DS with half a brain would have tried to do the same.
If Hushovd had helped Cancellara up to the front group,
he would have been chasing down his own teammate.
When people do that, it's not even called "negative" racing.
It's usually called selfish.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
> wots with the 'honor the Rainbow Jersey' shite ?
> this is a bike race we're talking about
> not some Miss Manners parlour game ...
Try expressing an opinion without throwing turds, Barry.
The jerseys given for accomplishment are honored by aggressive riding.
Or: how did *he* ever get to wear Rainbow (or Yellow, Green, etc.)?
> what is simple
> is that the best rider on the day
> won the race
> full stop
> and
> end of story
Van Summeren, a team worker (and an excellent one from reports), with
very few results of his own, got into a good position near the end of
a big race, and when word went up to him that Cancellara was trapped
and being marked by teammate Hushovd (and everyone else <g>), Van
Summeren either took initiative or was given his head to go, and he
did a fine job to get a gap and win.
"Best rider"? Cancellara can be said to be the "best" on that day,
which is not to take anything away from Van Summeren's efforts and
seizing the moment, if it was his choice to do so. IMHO
<http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/MG_opvallend/1.1000639>
If it were my place to happy for him...
Yes, a grand day for Van Summeren. No beef here ("who cares-- no one")
with Van Summeren.
--D-y
sam
@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, bjwe...@gmail.com says...
If the Hushovd had helped Cancellara catch up with
van Summeren, it would be called "stupid."
I was so happy to see van Summeren win. What a great
victory for a much-loved rider.
s
--D-y
wrote:
I've seen at least one local race where the national-caliber guy found
someone who was willing to work, and was rewarded with 2nd.
Point of honor: "They never lapped us" <g>.
I've also seen where, apparently, even a scrap of bread was apparently
too much to leave behind. Whatever.
--D-y
Kurgan Gringioni
"Frederick the Great" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-34BA98....@news.albasani.net...
>
> Negative racing is when the guy you want to win does not.
Dumbass -
That's not true.
For instance, every single Cat 4 race is negative.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Barry Taylor
news:b13c68c8-6737-4175...@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 11, 10:13 pm, "Barry Taylor" <taylo...@aapt.net.au> wrote:
>> wots with the 'honor the Rainbow Jersey' shite ?
>> this is a bike race we're talking about
>> not some Miss Manners parlour game ...
>Try expressing an opinion without throwing turds, Barry.
Thanks for the advice "Dusty" - or whoever you are !!!
>The jerseys given for accomplishment are honored by aggressive riding.
>Or: how did *he* ever get to wear Rainbow (or Yellow, Green, etc.)?
You seem to have missed the point my friendly advisor
I have no qualms or whatever about the wearer of the rainbow jersey
honouring it,
nor am I suggesting or indeed implying criticism of the current wearer of
said jersey.
What I am criticising is the suggestion that the wearer of the rainbow
jersey indeed
deserves or should be given any more or less consideration than any other
rider.
>> what is simple
>> is that the best rider on the day
>> won the race
>> full stop
>> and
>> end of story
>Van Summeren, a team worker (and an excellent one from reports), with
>very few results of his own, got into a good position near the end of
>a big race, and when word went up to him that Cancellara was trapped
>and being marked by teammate Hushovd (and everyone else <g>), Van
>Summeren either took initiative or was given his head to go, and he
>did a fine job to get a gap and win.
no doubt about it
>"Best rider"? Cancellara can be said to be the "best" on that day,
>which is not to take anything away from Van Summeren's efforts and
>seizing the moment, if it was his choice to do so. IMHO
Nonsense ! He who crosses the line first is best on the day.
Cancellara was not best on the day. But given the circumstances
I agree that Cancellara's ride was far and away the best ride of
the day.
Fred
wrote:
Sometimes "chasing" is actually "blocking". But you knew that, right?
Fred
--D-y
wrote:
> Luftmensch,
("One more concerned with airy intellectual pursuits than practical
matters like earning an income.>
> Nobody agrees with you. This is because you are
> wrong.
Actually, I'm at least as much "right" as you are. Rhetorical appeal
of "everyone agrees with me" is noted <g>.
> I don't get this whole "let a minor rider win" and "honor the
> Rainbow Jersey" opera you are conducting.
I have seen words to this effect: "Big races need big winners". You
might consider that. "Van Summer-who?" IOW, how many small riders can
a Monument stand? Shall we have this sort of thing happen often?
Really?
No, the small races are given to the small riders. And "The Jerseys",
(again) very important "trophies" awarded for great deeds, are honored
with further accomplishments-- far different from "riding stupid". No,
it was for Vaughters & Co. to figure out a way to get Hushovd over the
line first. This "anyone on my team can win" is Cat III Wednesday
Night Criterium Series stuff.
Damn, no wonder Cancellara could walk proud up to the second spot on
the podium.
> For someone
> who often likes to be on the side of the little guy, you are
> spending a lot of time coming up with reasons you think the
> race Van Summeren won was lesser or tainted.
"See above"; "the big races are for the big riders".
> Sometimes
> tactics dictate that a non-superstar wins a race. That's
> actually one of the cool things about bike racing - on any
> given Sunday, there are more than just 10 guys who can
> dream about winning.
Agreed.
> The Rainbow Jersey is a nice piece of kit, but it is not an
> obligation to race bravely
Specifically, yes it is.
> and stupidly.
That, it is specifically not.
> That means Hushovd
> had no obligation to help bring Cancellara to the front
> (chasing down Hushovd's own man), especially if he considered
> Cance might TT away from him before they got to the
> velodrome. Which is a significant risk since Paris-Roubaix
> is often won by a powerful rider simply riding away from
> his companions (van Petegem did that a few years ago).
Who said anything about "bringing Cancellara to the front"? Not me!
> Bike racing is tactical. That's why it helps to have good tactics,
> teammates up the road in the break, and so on. The strongest
> guy on the day doesn't always win if he's not in the right place,
> doesn't follow the right move, etc. If this bothers you, watch
> Ironman.
"And then the lecture". You offer no needed instruction on the basics
to me, sir.
> This isn't some kind of drama where Vaughters is going
> around doing people dirt, like the petty thing with Hincapie.
This is some kind of drama where it's a damn good thing to *not* go
around making enemies. The "thing" with Hincapie was not "petty" by a
very, very long shot. Have we forgotten that Vaughters himself decided
he (Vaughters) was not man enough for the Tour? Start there, and think
what it must be like, following that painful self-realization, to gaze
upon one such as George Hincapie. (or, he --Vaughters-- could have
arranged to let Hincapie get that time in Yellow, and even
congratulated him, instead of coming up with mealy-mouthed "time gap"
excuses)
> If you want to hold a grudge against him for that, feel free.
Grudge? How about character assessment?
> For all I know, he is an asshole and kicks puppies
I think he's way too sensitive to actually kick puppies
>, but
> his team was in the right places on Sunday. Any other
> DS with half a brain would have tried to do the same.
Unfounded assertion.
> If Hushovd had helped Cancellara up to the front group,
> he would have been chasing down his own teammate.
> When people do that, it's not even called "negative" racing.
> It's usually called selfish.
That amounts to putting words in my mouth, that "helping Cancellara"
stuff. I never said he should "help Cancellara". I said he should
have, ideally, found a way to beat him on the line, with his superior
Green Jersey sprint, while wearing the Rainbow Jersey.
IOW, ride like a champion, instead of a team worker.
--D-y
Frederick the Great
<cecd6219-e08e-4284...@a17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
> I have seen words to this effect: "Big races need big winners". You
> might consider that. "Van Summer-who?" IOW, how many small riders can
> a Monument stand? Shall we have this sort of thing happen often?
You want fixed races.
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
<b13c68c8-6737-4175...@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
> "Best rider"? Cancellara can be said to be the "best" on that day,
> which is not to take anything away from Van Summeren's efforts and
> seizing the moment, if it was his choice to do so. IMHO
Van Summeren saw the victory and took it. Cancellara
lost. Nobody denies that you may publicly award style
points. Most people's quibble is with you saying style
points matter more than what happened, your emotional
attachment to what should have been, and saying that
various riders and directors acted incorrectly in
failing to generate the outcome you wanted.
--
Old Fritz
Simply Fred
> Nobody denies that you may publicly award style
> points. Most people's quibble is with you saying style
> points matter more than what happened,
On rbr style points are everything.
--D-y
> In article
> <cecd6219-e08e-4284-8671-adc17e33d...@a17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
>
> --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > I have seen words to this effect: "Big races need big winners". You
> > might consider that. "Van Summer-who?" IOW, how many small riders can
> > a Monument stand? Shall we have this sort of thing happen often?
>
> You want fixed races.
Oh my God. Read "Dog in a Hat". Or "The Sweat of the Gods".
Call *me* a "newbie"????
No, I want the big boys to race like big boys. Cancellara did.
--D-y
--D-y
>
> --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > "Best rider"? Cancellara can be said to be the "best" on that day,
> > which is not to take anything away from Van Summeren's efforts and
> > seizing the moment, if it was his choice to do so. IMHO
>
> Van Summeren saw the victory and took it. Cancellara
> lost. Nobody denies that you may publicly award style
> points. Most people's quibble is with you saying style
> points matter more than what happened, your emotional
> attachment to what should have been, and saying that
> various riders and directors acted incorrectly in
> failing to generate the outcome you wanted.
What in the world is a "style point"?
Apparently you don't know what the "outcome I wanted" was. You could
offer a guess. No no, that's OK, you first...
--D-y
sam
de2a14...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, dusto...@mac.com says...
In the interviews, Cancellara himself acknowledged the appropriateness
of the other teams' tactics. Why can't you?
s
sam
Michael Press
<598663ed-2bc6-44a2...@t19g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 12, 1:50 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <b13c68c8-6737-4175-b421-1d56626a0...@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > > "Best rider"? Cancellara can be said to be the "best" on that day,
> > > which is not to take anything away from Van Summeren's efforts and
> > > seizing the moment, if it was his choice to do so. IMHO
> >
> > Van Summeren saw the victory and took it. Cancellara
> > lost. Nobody denies that you may publicly award style
> > points. Most people's quibble is with you saying style
> > points matter more than what happened, your emotional
> > attachment to what should have been, and saying that
> > various riders and directors acted incorrectly in
> > failing to generate the outcome you wanted.
>
> What in the world is a "style point"?
The rainbow jersey or an equivalent star should win the monuments.
> Apparently you don't know what the "outcome I wanted" was.
Define 'know'. You said what you wanted and I took you
at your word.
> You could
> offer a guess. No no, that's OK, you first...
--
Michael Press
--D-y
> In article <541ccc5b-fa6d-4e5b-b567-
> de2a14845...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, dustoyev...@mac.com says...
"Could", but 1) Don't have to; 2) Don't want to; and 3) You can't make
me.
Not to mention, the Cancellara output I saw didn't contain any
"Rainbow Jersey" context. Doesn't matter one way or the other,
however; I'm just calling it the way I see it. You don't have to
agree...
--D-y
Michael Press
<541ccc5b-fa6d-4e5b...@k7g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
You are the only one saying they did not;
and other positions are as well supported as yours.
--
Michael Press
--D-y
> In article <bnme78-0l5....@donaldm.homeip.net>, n...@mailinator.com
> says...
>
>
>
> > Frederick the Great wrote:
> > > Nobody denies that you may publicly award style
> > > points. Most people's quibble is with you saying style
> > > points matter more than what happened,
>
> > On rbr style points are everything.
>
> Panache.
From Wiki:
(quote):
Panache is a word of French origin that carries the connotation of a
flamboyant manner and reckless courage.
The literal translation is a plume, such as is worn on a hat or a
helmet, but the reference is to King Henry IV of France. Pleasure-
loving and cynical, but a brave military leader and the best-loved of
the kings of France, he was famed for wearing a striking white plume
in his helmet and for his war cry: "Follow my white plume!" (Fr.
"Ralliez-vous à mon panache blanc!"). (end quote)
Scuse me while I don't bother to go look it up, but "style" is gonna
fall way short of "panache".
Cancellara, panache. Van Summeren, panache in a great big heapin'
helping, considering his career results up to this last Sunday.
Full admiration for being able to keep himself together and get it
over the line when it counted for about as much as a race could
possibly count for! For once, all team responsibilities placed square
on his shoulders, and time to capital-D Deliver!
I said before, no beef with VS!
--D-y
--D-y
> In article
> <598663ed-2bc6-44a2-8fea-34ead946b...@t19g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Define "define".
--D-y
Fred
Have you read: http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/4/12/2107346/the-subtlety-of-tactics-paris-roubaix-tidbit
After having done so, come back and tell us whether you think JV and
his team did anything wrong.
Fred
--D-y
>
> After having done so, come back and tell us whether you think JV and
> his team did anything wrong.
No, I haven't read that. Don't intend to and didn't much like the tone
of the "invitation", either. Not a surprise, given the tenor of some
of the "discussion" here, and nothing new, either, for that matter.
--D-y
--D-y
Frederick the Great
<387f62b4-bc10-488b...@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala
I_can't_heeere_you.
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
<55393791-cabb-42bc...@o26g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
> Define "define".
Reduced to arguing tit-for-tat, Aristotle?
--
Old Fritz
Fred Flintstein
> Fred Flintstein<bob.sc...@sbcremoveglobal.net> wrote in
> news:MYOdnUjCsPtx9j7Q...@giganews.com:
>
>>
>> Dude!
>>
>> When a group gets away you want to have a rider in it, just in
>> case. In this case Garmin had a guy that had made the top ten
>> in P-R twice in the lead group. They were sitting in great
>> shape.
>>
>> Leopard-Trek missed the boat. It was Cancellara's job to chase.
>> advantage and was beating Spartacus up with it.
>>
>
> Isn't it one of the laws of usenet that the more obvious the inference or
> simplicity of the explanation, the greater the resistance to it being
> accepted as the most likely explanation of what happened being true? Let
> me know if you need me to explain that to you a different way, because it
> seems obvious to me.
Some snark is well developed right off the keyboard. But occasionally
you will come across snark that has a delightful complexity, with a
flavor that ripens with age like a fine wine.
Any dumbass can see that.
Fred Flintstein
Fred
Tone? For crying out loud, I just wanted to see if you'd looked at it
from a different perspective.
Put your big girl panties on and stop whining.
Fred
--D-y
> Tone? For crying out loud, I just
"I just..."
>wanted
"wanted"-- still OK...
> to see if you'd looked at it
> from a different perspective.
POOP POOP POOP-- whoa, sorry, that's just my Bullshit Detector going
off. I checked, it's set all the way up, too.
> Put your big girl panties on and stop whining.
Throwing turds, disparaging "manliness", so-forth-and-so-on...
Do you guys work someplace where you're not allowed to have your own
opinions, under pains of persecution? Or is that the home situation,
so you're working all that out here?
Just wondering.
Um, "appeal to superior knowledge denied".
--D-y
--D-y
RicodJour
> On Apr 12, 10:46 pm, Fred <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 12, 5:38 pm, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > > In the interviews, Cancellara himself acknowledged the appropriateness
> > > > of the other teams' tactics. Why can't you?
>
> > > "Could", but 1) Don't have to; 2) Don't want to; and 3) You can't make
> > > me.
>
> > > Not to mention, the Cancellara output I saw didn't contain any
> > > "Rainbow Jersey" context. Doesn't matter one way or the other,
> > > however; I'm just calling it the way I see it. You don't have to
> > > agree...
>
>
> > After having done so, come back and tell us whether you think JV and
> > his team did anything wrong.
>
> No, I haven't read that. Don't intend to and didn't much like the tone
> of the "invitation", either. Not a surprise, given the tenor of some
> of the "discussion" here, and nothing new, either, for that matter.
You really should read the podium cafe thing, and this was also linked
to in that article:
http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/vansummeren-time-paris-roubaix-analysis/
I understand you have an opinion and are feeling put upon by people
that disagree with you, but a few things jump to mind.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but proffering an opinion and
going to lengths to try to defend it are two different animals. With
the latter they should expect for some spirited discourse. You are
experiencing spirited discourse.
Having an opinion is one thing, but having a closed mind about that
opinion is also a different, different animal. Lots of animals in
here, eh? The fact that someone offered up a link for your perusal,
and you refused to read it because you didn't like the 'tone' is odd.
BTW, I think you're a bit tone-deaf in this particular thread -
there's no real hostility here. I'm not sure why you would feel
threatened/offended (or whatever it is your feeling) by reading a
link, but taking in another viewpoint can never hurt your argument.
Finally, and most importantly, this is RBR and dumbass is a term of
affection, dumbass. We still love you even if you have a dumbass
opinion and even more so since it has some merit.
R
PS I learned something from those links I hadn't known. I didn't
know that JvS had a tire that was leaking for the last 5K. Now he's
extra super special in my book.
--D-y
> You really should read
Well, there we go, a civil suggestion.
> the podium cafe thing, and this was also linked
> to in that article:http://www.cyclesportmag.com/news-and-comment/vansummeren-time-paris-...
I think I read them both.
> I understand you have an opinion and are feeling put upon by people
> that disagree with you, but a few things jump to mind.
I'm not exactly "put upon"; I'm trying to arrive at a consensus that
holding opinions, especially ones grounded in tradition (honoring "the
Jerseys", "big riders should win big races") are valid-- IOW, not
"shite", for instance. IOW, how about some civility?
> Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but proffering an opinion and
> going to lengths to try to defend it are two different animals.
Defending a valid opinion is no more an example of offering offense
than is offering the opinion in the first place.
> With
> the latter they should expect for some spirited discourse. You are
> experiencing spirited discourse.
After "dumbass", which is a meaningful greeting here, various ploys
presented here are objectionable for various reasons.
>
> Having an opinion is one thing, but having a closed mind about that
> opinion is also a different, different animal.
Jeeze, that's just the point. I have opinions, and I'm not going to be
steamrollered into changing them.
> Lots of animals in
> here, eh? The fact that someone offered up a link for your perusal,
> and you refused to read it because you didn't like the 'tone' is odd.
No it's not "odd" to refuse to do as bidden, especially when the
presentation is rude.
> BTW, I think you're a bit tone-deaf in this particular thread -
> there's no real hostility here. I'm not sure why you would feel
> threatened/offended (or whatever it is your feeling) by reading a
> link, but taking in another viewpoint can never hurt your argument.
Attempted browbeating is the "tone" I'm feeling.
> Finally, and most importantly, this is RBR and dumbass is a term of
> affection, dumbass. We still love you even if you have a dumbass
> opinion and even more so since it has some merit.
Well, I don't know about all that "affection" stuff but I'm up for a
good discussion about bike racing-- which has been kind of lacking
here in this bike racing discussion-and-"news" group.
> PS I learned something from those links I hadn't known. I didn't
> know that JvS had a tire that was leaking for the last 5K. Now he's
> extra super special in my book.
Almost brings an air of divine blessedness to the occurrence <g>.
Again, double quadruple "good for him", with whipped cream and a
cherry on top. Just to note, when I've called this win "a reward", I
didn't necessarily mean that it was Vooters handing it out.
In reading the "Vaunting Vaughters" stuff, I saw where he took credit
for controlling the chase to (IMS) 50 seconds. Implying that Thor
could have made it to the front in plenty of time to get ready for a
man-to-man finale with Cancellara and perhaps a choice of others
(including Van Summeren <g>), IMHO, all that just adds fuel to my
argument that Voo-hoo kept the Rainbow Jersey back and gave this race
to a team worker, which in my opinion is a negative way to win a race,
with the existing circumstance that Hushovd had the Rainbow Jersey on.
And then we go back to the top... And it also lends, IMHO, credence
to the affair with Hincapie, that this was a purposeful taking away of
a well-earned (in the broad sense) reward for a great domestique. IOW,
if the puppetmaster is really masterfully pulling the puppetstrings,
he's in control of where the puppets finish in their races.
Again, "giving" rewards in the form of stage or race wins, jerseys,
whatever, is very much a part of the fabric of pro bike racing; that
is to say, another tradition that IMHO should be honored, and
especially so when there is no real "cost" in the giving.
"Vaughters, the Ugly American"?
--D-y
Fred on a stick
> PS I learned something from those links I hadn't known. I didn't
> know that JvS had a tire that was leaking for the last 5K. Now he's
> extra super special in my book.
Here's something I hadn't known:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
RicodJour
It figures that Fred on a stick would find a clip of a rider who was
almost on a stick. :)
That must have burned like hell. Sheesh.
R
sam
@s3g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, rico...@worldemail.com says...
Where's the team car?
s
Fred Flintstein
> I'm not exactly "put upon"; I'm trying to arrive at a consensus that
> holding opinions, especially ones grounded in tradition (honoring "the
> Jerseys", "big riders should win big races") are valid-- IOW, not
> "shite", for instance. IOW, how about some civility?
Speaking of tradition, that particular jersey is awarded at
a race that very few of the top riders bother to show up for.
What that means is you don't have to be Merckx to win it.
Here's last year's podium:
1) Hushovd
2) Breschel
3) Davis
We've had years where it came down to 'big riders' but most
years don't. So I think you honor the jersey these days by
not riding like a dumbass.
In his entire career Thor has only won one big single day
race held on a weekend. That was last fall and it helped a
lot that most of the top riders were at the beach instead.
Expecting a rider that isn't Merckx to ride like Merckx
doesn't make a lot of sense.
Fred Flintstein
Scott
wrote:
Which top one day riders weren't there?
--D-y
wrote:
>
> > I'm not exactly "put upon"; I'm trying to arrive at a consensus that
> > holding opinions, especially ones grounded in tradition (honoring "the
> > Jerseys", "big riders should win big races") are valid-- IOW, not
> > "shite", for instance. IOW, how about some civility?
>
> Speaking of tradition, that particular jersey is awarded at
> a race that very few of the top riders bother to show up for.
> What that means is you don't have to be Merckx to win it.
>
> Here's last year's podium:
>
> 1) Hushovd
> 2) Breschel
> 3) Davis
>
> We've had years where it came down to 'big riders' but most
> years don't.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCI_Road_World_Championships_–
_Men's_road_race>
Mostly "names" is what I see in the first three places. If there's a
winner who is less famous, chances are he has a couple of names
following him.
>So I think you honor the jersey these days by
> not riding like a dumbass.
Golly-gee-whiz, did I never one bit say "ride like a dumbass" and
Vooters' "control" of the gap @ 50 sec. in the late going applies.
"Tempting" Cancelllara, indeed. Where did Hushovd finish again?
>
> In his entire career Thor has only won one big single day
> race held on a weekend. That was last fall and it helped a
> lot that most of the top riders were at the beach instead.
Winning P-R in the Rainbow Jersey was considered to be such a strong
confirmation by Merckx (and many others), perhaps, because of the
extremely different parcours as well as being fit late in one season
and then strong again fairly early in the next one, in an era where
Worlds RR was seemingly well-attended.
If Hushovd was a "weak" winner of the Rainbow Jersey, due to lack of
names contesting on the day, I think (lacking looking up start lists
and comparing) that last year might have something of a fluke "stay-
away" year. After all, he's won 5 TdF stages (6 if you count a
prologue), has several other stage wins in various races, and a couple
of Green Jerseys from the TdF. Or are you saying he's kind of a
chopped-liver kind of racer?
> Expecting a rider that isn't Merckx to ride like Merckx
> doesn't make a lot of sense.
Merckx really wasn't in the picture for me. I don't know if Hushovd
was cashed out at the end of P-R or sat up because his team job on the
day was done.
--D-y
A. Dumas
>> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, "Fred on a stick" wrote:
>>> Here's something I hadn't known: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
>
Knaven was DS in the team car. He explained that they were too far ahead
for radio reception, so they wouldn't have heard him anyway, and also
that they were behind their first riders in the race and weren't going
to stop & wait for 5-10 minutes to help him. Arvesen finally gave up
after 20 km without a saddle and got in a random car from another team
(meaning he didn't finish; it wasn't the last 20 km of the race).
--D-y
He QUIT!?!?!?
<http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/whitehead.htm>
--D-y
RicodJour
In some of those pictures, the B&W ones where she appears a
bit...chilly, Cindy looks like an old girlfriend. She called me a
selfish lover. Gwen, if you're reading this - what was your
point? :)
R
Fredmaster of Brainerd
He knew he wasn't the #1 rider on his team, and
didn't want to cause a controversy if he accidentally
got into the front group.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
Jeeze, the points are obvious enough.
Are you sorry for not paying more attention to the points she raised?
(etc. etc. etc.)
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
> I've seen at least one local race where the national-caliber guy found
> someone who was willing to work, and was rewarded with 2nd.
> Point of honor: "They never lapped us" <g>.
dumbass,
the 'happy to be there" attitude is okay for amateurs but not for top
pros.
the way to beat a strongman is to make him work harder than you and
use your team.
in 2006 boonen was the strongman at flanders and hoste was able to go
with him when he attacked and hoste chose to work with him even though
hoste had teammates behind and he was "rewarded" with the inevitable
2nd. if he sat on boonen he could have put pressure on boonen, but he
chose to take the 2nd and not use his team.
that is why hoste is a loser who will never win a big race.
--D-y
> On Apr 12, 1:00 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > I've seen at least one local race where the national-caliber guy found
> > someone who was willing to work, and was rewarded with 2nd.
> > Point of honor: "They never lapped us" <g>.
>
> dumbass,
>
> the 'happy to be there" attitude is okay for amateurs but not for top
> pros.
I was talking specifically about amateur racing, in the context of
amateur racing.
>
> the way to beat a strongman is to make him work harder than you and
> use your team.
I didn't say Vooters didn't do that, either.
>
> in 2006 boonen was the strongman at flanders and hoste was able to go
> with him when he attacked and hoste chose to work with him even though
> hoste had teammates behind and he was "rewarded" with the inevitable
> 2nd. if he sat on boonen he could have put pressure on boonen, but he
> chose to take the 2nd and not use his team.
Or the DS told Hoste what to do, for some reason or another. Vooters
was happy to sprint for 2nd or 3rd...
> that is why hoste is a loser who will never win a big race.
Maybe so. All I can say is, if Van Summeren's tire had gone flat
faster, then what of Vooter's magnificence as a puppeteer? Hushovd is
back, cruising or spent, and Cancellara goes in for the kill? Phew,
that would have been really stinky. FWIW (nada), glad VS pulled off
the win, for his sake. Tactics are not his decision, and now he can
afford to marry his girlfriend.
Frankly, I'd enjoy seeing him paste another on up on the wall, just to
lend some cred to this RVV win. The next one will likely be much, much
tougher!
--D-y
Fredmaster of Brainerd
> On Apr 11, 11:45 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I don't get this whole "let a minor rider win" and "honor the
> > Rainbow Jersey" opera you are conducting.
>
> I have seen words to this effect: "Big races need big winners". You
> might consider that. "Van Summer-who?" IOW, how many small riders can
> a Monument stand? Shall we have this sort of thing happen often?
> No, the small races are given to the small riders. And "The Jerseys",
> (again) very important "trophies" awarded for great deeds, are honored
> with further accomplishments-- far different from "riding stupid". No,
> it was for Vaughters & Co. to figure out a way to get Hushovd over the
> line first. This "anyone on my team can win" is Cat III Wednesday
> Night Criterium Series stuff.
>
> Damn, no wonder Cancellara could walk proud up to the second spot on
> the podium.
Are we still beating this dead horse?
I never heard the phrase "Big races need big winners."
Now that I have heard it, I think it's stupid in this context
(and I don't care if it turns out to have been originated by
Eddy Fucking Merckx, although I'll bet not).
You could equally well say that big races make big winners.
Anybody capable of winning Paris-Roubaix is a rider of
quality. Maybe van Summeren deserves more respect
than you're giving him.
Frederic Guesdon won P-R in 1997 and not much since,
and I haven't heard anyone suggest he didn't deserve it
or should give back his cobble.
Remember the 2005 Tour when The George Hincapie got
into a break on the super-big mountain stage, they got a
big gap, and (IIRC) he partially sat on the break (he was
protecting a team leader, after all), and he won the big
mountain stage? There were people who grumbled that
it was inappropriate for a break of non-mountain specialists
to stay away due to the favorites not chasing, or for
Hincapie to win the stage since he wasn't a super climber.
I thought the criticisms of a winner determined partly by
tactics were idiotic, and still do. What's your opinion now?
Fredmaster Ben
Jim Feeley
Put another way, is this RBR?
Jim
--
Jim
Jim Feeley
POV Media
--D-y
> Are we still beating this dead horse?
The horse lives.
> I never heard the phrase "Big races need big winners."
> Now that I have heard it, I think it's stupid in this context
> (and I don't care if it turns out to have been originated by
> Eddy Fucking Merckx, although I'll bet not).
Welcome to the world of those who have heard BRNBW.
You're welcome to your opinion.
I never said or thought it was originated by EM.
> You could equally well say that big races make big winners.
How the winners get big is the thing.
> Anybody capable of winning Paris-Roubaix is a rider of
> quality. Maybe van Summeren deserves more respect
> than you're giving him.
Please show me where I have shown VS a speck of disrespect.
For one thing, remember I'm one of the Hincapie Defenders (the only
one?) here who, instead of crucifying GH because he doesn't win big
races, has a real-world appreciation of what has been quite a career
for George. Team captain with Armstrong for the TdF wins, and then a
complete and completely successful change of role to be leadout man
for Cavendish (who might well have won at least one Green Jersey by
now except for an arguably (not really arguably, complete) bullshit
complaint by you-know-who.
>
> Frederic Guesdon won P-R in 1997 and not much since,
> and I haven't heard anyone suggest he didn't deserve it
> or should give back his cobble.
You never heard me say anything negative about FG or VS, other than to
call VS a team rider, which he undeniably has been for ten years.
> Remember the 2005 Tour when The George Hincapie got
> into a break on the super-big mountain stage, they got a
> big gap, and (IIRC) he partially sat on the break (he was
> protecting a team leader, after all), and he won the big
> mountain stage? There were people who grumbled that
> it was inappropriate for a break of non-mountain specialists
> to stay away due to the favorites not chasing, or for
> Hincapie to win the stage since he wasn't a super climber.
> I thought the criticisms of a winner determined partly by
> tactics were idiotic, and still do. What's your opinion now?
My opinion remains the same IRT "Bad Day for the Rainbow Jersey".
Any time someone sits on and wins, you're going to hear criticism.
Sean Kelly v. Argentin, MSR? Tough toenails, Marino! But some didn't
see it that way.
The criticism of GH for winning the mountain stage (2005, St. Lary
Soulan finish) I heard had to do with the certainty some had that GH
only won with the help of banned performance-enhancing substances. I'm
sure there was "other", at the time, IRT "opportunism".
In fact Pereiro apologized the day following for remarks he made right
after the race. Well done; "that's bike racing!".
--D-y
> Fredmaster Ben
Fred Flintstein
> What's your opinion now?
I think he'll dig a hole to China before conceding a
point. You may as well be asking him if John Howard
had any role in the lawsuit that brought lawyer lip
forks to the US. Even John Howard disagrees with him
on that one.
Fred Flintstein
RicodJour
>
> My opinion remains the same IRT "Bad Day for the Rainbow Jersey".
There's a surprise.
You're big on the acronyms, so in future, when people are pointing out
that your particular viewpoint is your particular viewpoint, please
respond with MORTS. It will save a lot of wasted pixels. Thanks.
R
Frederick the Great
<021452dc-4c93-41ba...@t19g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 12, 8:44 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 11:45 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I don't get this whole "let a minor rider win" and "honor the
> > > Rainbow Jersey" opera you are conducting.
> >
> > I have seen words to this effect: "Big races need big winners". You
> > might consider that. "Van Summer-who?" IOW, how many small riders can
> > a Monument stand? Shall we have this sort of thing happen often?
> > Really?
> > No, the small races are given to the small riders. And "The Jerseys",
> > (again) very important "trophies" awarded for great deeds, are honored
> > with further accomplishments-- far different from "riding stupid". No,
> > it was for Vaughters & Co. to figure out a way to get Hushovd over the
> > line first. This "anyone on my team can win" is Cat III Wednesday
> > Night Criterium Series stuff.
> >
> > Damn, no wonder Cancellara could walk proud up to the second spot on
> > the podium.
>
> Are we still beating this dead horse?
Dead horses require big sticks.
<http://unix.sjcc.edu/DeadHorse.htm>
--
Old Fritz
Fredmaster of Brainerd
wrote:
Thanks. On rbr, you know, it's the journey not
the destination - because trying to win arguments on
the Internet is, err, like trying to fix a flat tube by
pumping it and riding it ("I only have to go another
half mile, maybe it will hold").
Actually, I am CTO of a new sustainable energy startup.
We're extracting geothermal energy from holes people
dig on the Internet. That's why SoTS pays me to post here.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
I don't remember a word of "pointing out anything about my particular
viewpoint being my particular viewpoint" until your post.
Um, I started the thread, and I didn't say "I heard so-and-so say it
was a bad day for the Rainbow Jersey and I agree with him", so I guess
you could say this viewpoint is something where I reacted to the race
I saw on American TV and some Euro feed. Again, where no one said (as
far as I heard, BDFTRJ.
"MORTS" didn't come up with a seemingly applicable meaning in a quick
google search, so, since I really don't want to read your mind in the
first place, and don't want to waste time (far more valuable than
recyclable pixels), would you like to give the meaning for what you've
spelled out?
Like I said, you don't have to agree. Makes no difference to me, and
don't have a cow, OK?
--D-y
--D-y
> On Apr 17, 9:11 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On 4/16/2011 5:48 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>
> > > What's your opinion now?
>
> > I think he'll dig a hole to China before conceding a
> > point.
I have an opinion you don't agree with. Why is that so difficult for
you?
> > You may as well be asking him if John Howard
> > had any role in the lawsuit that brought lawyer lip
> > forks to the US. Even John Howard disagrees with him
> > on that one.
Wow, that was stinky. The attempts at brow-beating and bullying
continue...
You wanna cite something to support that horseshit, so to speak?
Including showing where "that lying bastard John Howard did it all by
himself!!!", along with any involvement I might have with that affair?
How many accidents do you think lawyer lips might have prevented or at
least lessened the extent of injury, by the way? Given the fact that
many people (users of QR skewers) still don't understand how to
operate them, and, additionally, how many long years lawyer lips have
been mandated? Can you answer that question in a straightforward, non-
insulting, non-browbeating manner?
Do you bitch about having to wear your seat belts over at
rec.auto.politics.com?
OK, here's another opinon section: Lawyer lips are a minor
inconvenience. They can be filed off without great effort if they
bother you to no end, or you can just remember how many turns it takes
to get the skewer opened enough to get the wheel out, and then reverse
the loosening process by the same number (!!!) of turns when the wheel
goes back in! If it takes you more than about 12 seconds to deal with
lawyer lips, it's because you're angry, neener neener!
Did John Howard come to your town and win the local race away from the
homeboys or something?
> Thanks. On rbr, you know, it's the journey not
> the destination - because trying to win arguments on
> the Internet (snip)
Ho ho ho. One more time: I have an opinion. I stated it. I don't care
who agrees or disagrees (as the expression goes), one way or the
other. Lots of disagreement? Fine. Am I supposed to say I changed my
mind to agree with you so you can sleep tonight or something? I think
the world is better if we *don't* all think the same...
is, err, like trying to fix a flat tube by
> pumping it and riding it ("I only have to go another
> half mile, maybe it will hold").
"Fix" a tube by adding air? I don't think anyone believes that can
work! Now, pump it up once or twice real quick for a short get-home?
I'd say that's near-universal among cyclists. Often (in the few times
I've ever pumped instead of changed out on the road), the hole gets
bigger and then it's easier to find the leak when you get back from
the ride. And (at least in my house) there's soap and water to clean
your hands when you're done, so one or two quick pumps might be an
attractive option. I'd say, "no more than two" with a good-working
pump, like a full- sized Zefal, and only up to 6 bar or so, or you're
wasting time/effort, speaking roughly.
--D-y
RicodJour
> On Apr 17, 11:31 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 17, 12:39 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > My opinion remains the same IRT "Bad Day for the Rainbow Jersey".
>
> > There's a surprise.
>
> > You're big on the acronyms, so in future, when people are pointing out
> > that your particular viewpoint is your particular viewpoint, please
> > respond with MORTS. It will save a lot of wasted pixels. Thanks.
>
>
> viewpoint being my particular viewpoint" until your post.
> Um, I started the thread, and I didn't say "I heard so-and-so say it
> was a bad day for the Rainbow Jersey and I agree with him", so I guess
> you could say this viewpoint is something where I reacted to the race
> I saw on American TV and some Euro feed. Again, where no one said (as
> far as I heard, BDFTRJ.
>
> "MORTS" didn't come up with a seemingly applicable meaning in a quick
> google search, so, since I really don't want to read your mind in the
> first place, and don't want to waste time (far more valuable than
> recyclable pixels), would you like to give the meaning for what you've
> spelled out?
>
> Like I said, you don't have to agree. Makes no difference to me, and
> don't have a cow, OK?
"My opinion remains the same" MORTS
R
Barry Taylor
news:ee154dfb-a1f4-40f4...@gu8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
"MORTS" didn't come up with a seemingly applicable meaning in a quick
google search, so, since I really don't want to read your mind in the
first place, and don't want to waste time (far more valuable than
recyclable pixels), would you like to give the meaning for what you've
spelled out?
---
MORTS - you just don't get it ...
-- ---
~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*) . . . bjbear on his treadly
If you think you're too small to have
an impact, try going to bed with a
mosquito in the room. Johan Bruyneel.
--D-y
Thank you.
Hey: "As long as you don't say it like it's a bad thing..."
--D-y
--D-y
> "--D-y" wrote in message
>
> news:ee154dfb-a1f4-40f4...@gu8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> "MORTS" didn't come up with a seemingly applicable meaning in a quick
> google search, so, since I really don't want to read your mind in the
> first place, and don't want to waste time (far more valuable than
> recyclable pixels), would you like to give the meaning for what you've
> spelled out?
>
> ---
>
> MORTS - you just don't get it ...
Sigh. Now you had to go and say it like it's a bad thing.
OK.
"I am cast amongst the Philistines".
Well, here we are, 25 miles or so out into the country. I have three
or four spares, a good pump, tire levers, combo tool in the spares
bag, a full tall bottle of water in the second cage, a cell phone,
map, and a couple of gels in the back pockets. And a fairly deep bank
card, in case I have to call a cab out into the wilderness...
--D-y
RicodJour
Three or four spares? What wilderness and what country?
R
Simply Fred
> Well, here we are, 25 miles or so out into the country. I have three
> or four spares, a good pump, tire levers, combo tool in the spares
> bag, a full tall bottle of water in the second cage, a cell phone,
> map, and a couple of gels in the back pockets. And a fairly deep bank
> card, in case I have to call a cab out into the wilderness...
You should also have a chain tool, spare master links and a backup fork
in case your fork explodes.
--D-y
Austin, TX, USA. The wilderness might be partly metaphorical, but
there have been times I've "loaned" a tube, especially the one with
the long valve stem, out to one of those "travel light for training"
guys, because it's easier than fishing around in the side pocket for
one of the two valve extenders I carry (for the use of others,
usually).
--D-y
--D-y
My multitool does in fact have a chain tool, and was chosen with that
feature in mind. I do have two master links, but no backup fork or
cookstove with three days' rations, or tent, down parka, etc. Nope,
that's what the cell phone, map, credit card and money are for.
Do it like you want; you didn't hear anything from me except maybe a
mild chiding along the lines of "You should carry a couple of spares,
just in case it pours a little while it's raining here". (<g>) And I
might say it's a good idea to carry a working, full-sized frame pump
in addition to the gonfleur.
The people I've loaned spares to over the years are always abashed to
at least some extent. One very bright loanee came right out and said
"You carry that (long stem spare tube) for people like me*, don't
you?" Yes, and it's NBD, I do this stuff for myself in the first
place.
So are you saying you've never had an on-the-road mechanical that
needed a little wrenching to set right?
--D-y
*teeny-tiny spare bag folks, barely room for one innertube, or maybe
one tube and a single-cartridge CO2 rig
Frederick the Great
<effacadb-bf0f-4f3b...@34g2000pru.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
Full size frame pump was once de de rigueur, but not now.
<http://www.artscyclery.com/descpage-LZRDPL.html>
90 psi easily, more with work.
225 mm, 110 gram. O-rings everywhere.
Ever get the feeling you are wasting
effort with a pump? Not with this one.
Sealed against road dust intrusion.
They do not advertise it, but reverse the hose
and you can inflate schrader valve tubes.
Only drawback is you would hate to lose it
in somebody's wheel.
--
Old Fritz
--D-y
> In article
> <effacadb-bf0f-4f3b-b6c6-8a1312768...@34g2000pru.googlegroups.com>,
Thank you.
Well, we've wandered into rec.bike.tech territory but I guess it's
Spring Training time...
I have a Park mini pump I bought for my fixed bike, intending to carry
it in my spares bag (the usual Jandd "sewup bag"), as the track bike I
use for fixed (with a road fork stuck in it for proper fork blade
config, and a brake bolt mounting hole) doesn't have a pump peg.
The Park pump is not mil spec but seems reasonably stout, and has a
pretty good lever-actuated chuck. It's about 265mm, I don't know the
weight. It has a clever swing-out "L" handle. I've only sample-tested
this one but it took a lot of strokes to fill a 23mm tire's inner
tube. But, it's secure in the bag, with an extra toe strap to back up
the Jandd's straps and clasp, and that's important when you can't stop
pedaling right away.
We're looking at quite a price difference here. I'm intending to start
a fixed "training" (ho ho) interlude and if the Park fails or fails to
make me happy (and I ride fixed only on certain loops these days, so
flats are very rare), I'll certainly take a look at the Lezyne.
I haven't had a problem with Presta stems v. rigid pumps for a good
long time but recognize that a hose isn't a bad thing to have on a
mini pump <g>.
That said, my frame pumps on road bikes live under the top tube. I use
the Zefal "X" spring system unless I forget, and, although I don't
think the newer ones pump as well or have equal function goodness in
the chuck as the old HP's of the 80's, I've never had a problem with a
under-top-tube mounted frame pump coming out, as long as it had a
velcro retaining strap on it,and I prefer the long stroke action over
the short stroke. Like all of this stuff, suit yourself, "YMMV";
again, I appreciate the heads-up on the Lezyne.
--D-y