Landis revelations : pieces of the puzzle falling into place...LA's 2009 TDF blood profile explained ?
Keith
rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
normal person."
Now match this to :
http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-values-suspicious
Cicero Venatio
So that's how it's done. Lance is done, all of them are done. Wouldn't
it be wonderful to see a drug-free tdf? Not since the days of Eddy have
we seen real people competing with each on bikes. It's all been fake
since Eddy.
B. Lafferty
--D-y
> Keith wrote:
> > "The end result of the technique, Ashenden explained, is that a
> > rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> > such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> > normal person."
>
>
> > Now match this to :
>
> >http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
>
> --------------
>
> So that's how it's done. Lance is done, all of them are done. Wouldn't
> it be wonderful to see a drug-free tdf? Not since the days of Eddy have
> we seen real people competing with each on bikes. It's all been fake
> since Eddy.
"Doping" has been used since the start. Eddy got popped more than
once; compared to the crap he (and all the others) took, EPO is orange
juice (to coin a phrase).
Get real.
--D-y
--D-y
> On 5/27/2010 7:29 AM, Keith wrote:> "The end result of the technique, Ashenden explained, is that a
> > rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> > such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> > normal person."
>
>
> > Now match this to :
>
> >http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
>
> Thanks for the links.
You and Keith, get a room.
--D-y
Keith
wrote:
Sure, forgot to post this one which was a "rebuttal" by none other
than Saxo"s and Astana's "how to beat the passport" doc, i.e. Rasmus
Damsgaard :
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated
Brad Anders
> "The end result of the technique, Ashenden explained, is that a
> rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> normal person."
>
>
> Now match this to :
>
> http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
Yeah, the passport is the ideal drug test. If it shows variations,
you're doping. If it's stable, you're doping.
It might be a good method for testing for witches, too.
Brad Anders
B. Lafferty
It is circumstantial which is a weakness. But, it seems it would be
more of problem for the UCI than the riders. Also very expensive to
maintain. That seems to have been acknowledged by the UCI because it is
more likely to increase random, out of competition testing than to
actually bring doping charges based on the blood passport.
Anton Berlin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Guys - even I wouldn't call this a smoking gun h levels can vary
greatly within a day depending on hydration levels. All of the riders
take IV fluids to manipulate these levels prior to testing -
statistical noise IMHO
Brad Anders
> Keith wrote:
> > "The end result of the technique, Ashenden explained, is that a
> > rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> > such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> > normal person."
>
>
> > Now match this to :
>
> >http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
>
> --------------
>
> So that's how it's done. Lance is done, all of them are done. Wouldn't
> it be wonderful to see a drug-free tdf? Not since the days of Eddy have
> we seen real people competing with each on bikes. It's all been fake
> since Eddy.
There will never be a future "drug-free TDF". I doubt there ever has
been one. Has there ever been a "fair TDF" among the top contenders?
IMO, that's what we've been seeing for years. The ones that have a
shot are all on a level playing field, as assured by what they can do
within the current methods of drug testing.
Brad Anders
GoneBeforeMyTime
Has there ever been a "fair TDF" among the top contenders?
> IMO, that's what we've been seeing for years.
>
> Brad Anders
They called Lance a machine during those 7 tours, but they called Jeanson
the Machine from Lachine. It took forever for them to catch Jeanson and she
was careless, and it seemed rather obvious. I don't know if Lance doped, but
the playing field was not fair if he did. Remember Lance had the tremendous
advantage from the Science of Lance which together between Nike, Trek, etc
projected to shave off as much as five minutes on a tour, then add a great
team and manager, he had the best of everything. That is not a fair and
level playing field.
Brad Anders
What makes you think that any of the top GC contenders weren't doing
the same things as Lance? There's plenty of evidence that they did.
IMO, if you're in that 0.1% of the pros that have a shot, you know
what you had to do to level the field and you did it.
Brad Anders
GoneBeforeMyTime
You not reading this correctly. I never said they didn't. My point is not
the doping equation. We know many doped during Lance's era, I don't refute
that claim, but my point is Lance had an advantage over the rest with his
millions, influence and connections to be able to use the latest cutting
edge secrets from Trek and Nike that only Lance had. The cumulative effects
of those advantages were significance, enough to give him a considerable
advantage, considering the doping equation has been nullified by fair use
across the board, even though illegal of course. Special elliptical climbing
bikes and TT bikes with Boron in the bottom bracket, jerseys with golf ball
dimples, etc, etc, which expects concluded between the cutting edge
advantages Nike and Trek brought to bear could shave off as much as five
minutes on a tour. Remember, Nike went to Lance and asked him, what can we
do to make you faster? Lance had quite an arsenal in those days.
Steve Freides
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
-S-
Brad Anders
Hey, all that stuff is just the basic goal of sport, to gain a
competitive advantage. I have no issue with it, any more than I have
an issue with Hendrick Motorsport figuring out how to dominate in
NASCAR, or Larry Ellison's boats winning the America's Cup.
Brad Anders
GoneBeforeMyTime
Well, then that gets back to cycling not being an a sport of the pure
physical achievement of the human body like running, track and field, other
sports like soccer where they can't gain a tremendous edge like that, even
when a superstar has millions to throw at it. With cycling, there is the
potential for big gain in performance by finessing the science of that gear
and technology, which doesn't allow a fair playing field to those who are
dirt poor. It's who has the most money and connections who gets the best
edge in cycling, as where who runs the marathon is the guy with the best
legs, not the best cutting edge bikes and gear.
Brad Anders
> Well, then that gets back to cycling not being an a sport of the pure
> physical achievement of the human body like running, track and field, other
> sports like soccer where they can't gain a tremendous edge like that, even
> when a superstar has millions to throw at it. With cycling, there is the
> potential for big gain in performance by finessing the science of that gear
> and technology, which doesn't allow a fair playing field to those who are
> dirt poor. It's who has the most money and connections who gets the best
> edge in cycling, as where who runs the marathon is the guy with the best
> legs, not the best cutting edge bikes and gear
Bicycle road racing never has been about "pure physical achievement",
which is why it's a hell of a lot more interesting that sports that
are closer to that mythical ideal. Anyone who has ever raced a bike in
a road race knows that it's not always the strongest rider who wins
the race. It's a combination of specific physical abilities, bike
skills, tactical awareness, strategy, knowledge of the race course,
external factors like weather and pavement condition, etc.
Oh, and the bike and equipment, which, IMO for the most part are
secondary considerations. I remember Karen Kurreck (look, Henry!)
telling me about doing a major stage race in Europe, she was riding a
state-of-the-art bike with the lightest components. Karen got a chance
to pick up the bike of the race leader, Leontien Van Moorsel. It was a
steel frame with heavy wheels, it weighed a ton, and Leontien was
cleaning everyone's clock with it. While this is anectdotal, I think
all of us have seen that you don't need to spend billions to have a
competitive bike, and from my observation of the pro peloton over the
past few decades, the differences among the competitive teams have
been very minor. The only huge equipment difference I can think of
that won a major race was the famous tri-bar use by Lemond. So, I
think your concerns about a guy like Lance having some huge advantage
because of his involvement with Nike and others is unfounded. Lance
won those races because he was smarter, healthier (how do you go 7
years without ever getting puking sick at the TdF?), luckier, on
better teams, used better strategy, was better prepared, had better
genetics, etc.
Brad Anders
Fred Flintstein
> Well, then that gets back to cycling not being an a sport of the pure
> physical achievement of the human body like running, track and field, other
> sports like soccer where they can't gain a tremendous edge like that, even
> when a superstar has millions to throw at it. With cycling, there is the
> potential for big gain in performance by finessing the science of that gear
> and technology, which doesn't allow a fair playing field to those who are
> dirt poor. It's who has the most money and connections who gets the best
> edge in cycling, as where who runs the marathon is the guy with the best
> legs, not the best cutting edge bikes and gear.
Dude,
I've got a medal from Elite Nationals that I won on a frame
that I paid $20 for used. It's a Bridgestone track frame
which I imagine hasn't been imported for several decades.
I'm guessing it was 15-20 years old at the time I took my
medal.
I did have modern wheels on it, but they were off the rack
HED wheels.
Guys like you are the reason companies put so much effort
into marketing.
Fred Flintstein
Anton Berlin
wrote:
The give medals for being a cheap bastard now?
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:gjlsv5hnhqp9ku404...@4ax.com...
That is so yesterday's news. I don't get it. All these "revelations" that
have been hashed out already in the past. Discussed here, discussed
elsewhere. What has happened to change anything? Landis making allegations
to support already-suspect blood values? C'mon guys, really, WHAT HAS
CHANGED???
I'll tell you what has changed. We have a "confession" from someone who lied
to us for over two years about this innocence, someone who sucked the life
blood (interesting metaphor in this case) from people very close to him,
dragging those poor folk down with him. *That* is something people should go
to prison for. Not just fraud, but knowing full-well the effect of that
fraud on those around him.
We cannot trust anything Floyd has said without a solid trail of real
evidence. Right now we have allegations supporting suspicion. Think about
that. If you were trying to bring someone down, you'd fabricate a story to
support whatever suspicion people already had.
There may be a dark truth to all this that involves all those that Floyd
named. But right now, nobody here has anything new to support such claims.
Floyd is not credible. This isn't "Lost" with Floyd playing the part of Ben,
the least-likely to be redeemed and yet, in the fairy-tale ending, even his
sins are wiped clean. He can wish, but he won't get.
Forget Floyd. Look for the money trail. There is no way that much cheating
went on, that much money changed hands, without a money trail somewhere.
These drugs aren't made up in a garage, and aren't distributed by the ice
cream truck and eaten like candy. The truth is out there.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>
> Well, then that gets back to cycling not being an a sport of the pure
> physical achievement of the human body like running, track and field, other
> sports like soccer where they can't gain a tremendous edge like that, even
> when a superstar has millions to throw at it. With cycling, there is the
> potential for big gain in performance by finessing the science of that gear
> and technology,
Dumbass -
You've got your head up your ass.
Money gives you advantages in any sport. Studies have shown that
national achievement at the Olympics is directly related to either 1)
the wealth of the country or 2) the amount of resources a poorer
government is willing to throw at it (ie. East Germany in the 70's and
80's).
thanks,
Fred. presented by Gringioni.
Brad Anders
> rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> normal person."
>
>
> Now match this to :
>
> http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
I just realized that the ultimate effect of the "blood passport" was
to stimulate the invention of microdosing, which has led to a much
more effective and efficient use of EPO by the pro peoloton. Thanks,
Ashenden!
"Necessity is the mother of invention"
Brad Anders
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
across countries perhaps where you can recruit from a selection of
talent, but not so much across individuals.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<Fa...@EuroForums.com> wrote:
> Special elliptical climbing
>bikes and TT bikes with Boron in the bottom bracket, jerseys with golf ball
>dimples, etc, etc, which expects concluded between the cutting edge
>advantages Nike and Trek brought to bear could shave off as much as five
>minutes on a tour. Remember, Nike went to Lance and asked him, what can we
>do to make you faster? Lance had quite an arsenal in those days.
I know I'm repeating myself, but my first personal experience with a
superbike was a time trial bike that one of the top East Coast cat 1s
was paid to ride as a moving commercial. He showed up at our TT,
warmed up in an obvious place, pulled up to the start line, left like
a pro, and flatted about 15 feet down the road.
Loaded up the bike, left, best as I recall, he never said a word.
There was also a guy from Virginia that was making a big fuss about
how great his recumbent was for time trialing. Entered it in two time
trials where I officiated. Fast as hell, except both times it fell in
the turn around. Someone should have tested the tire-wheel combination
in tight half circles. Thing could bounce...
The second fastest bike in one of those TTs was a father son tandem
combo until the tandem lost the chain in one of the more spectacular
there-goes-the-chain experiences I've actually seen. Bleeding edge
actually was bleeding edge.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
Betty Munro
> I just realized that the ultimate effect of the "blood passport" was
> to stimulate the invention of microdosing, which has led to a much
> more effective and efficient use of EPO by the pro peoloton. Thanks,
> Ashenden!
Microdosing was around long before the so called passport. Back in
Tugboats day they microdosed before removing blood for example.
K. Fred Gauss
They don't just GIVE those away.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
Whatever happened to Tugboat?
Brad Anders
Google. Dead.
GoneBeforeMyTime
In the old days, those bikes were heavy and very, very far from being
anything like the advances today. Talking about the era of Bartali and
Coppi. It wasn't about the bike back then, but the rider. Lance had the
biggest advantage gained of any time in previous history by what he did with
his advances in gear and technology. There is no doubt about it. Of course
there have been more advances since that time, but Lance clearly had the
edge during his tour years. If you missed reading about the Science of
Lance, I'll post it again here. Lance obviously had a big advantage over the
rest of the field through science and technology. Lance took advantage of
everything you mentioned plus his own brand of Science. My point is simply
this does not represent a fair and level playing field since no one except
Lance had these top companies working together to make Lance the best. In
other sports like Soccer, he would simply be just another competitor. Now if
everyone was doping in say something like Soccer, then you could argue that
might be a fair and level playing field.
See below, his advantages cannot be denied, taken almost verbatim from "The
Science of Lance" - "Versus"
Lance's team looked at every aspect of cycling to make their team better.
They made the bikes as light, strong and as safe as they could. They looked
at not only the riders and the team as a whole but all the nuts and bolts,
frames, helmets, even the tires and the jerseys are specially made. The
tires were aged six years just for Lance, and the jerseys are made of
special
materials to shave off resistance, drag. Lances F1 team represents the best
minds from technology, sports physiology, statistical analysis and
aerodynamics.
Calculations take into considerations the grade of the climb, the density
of the air, the weight of the rider and the rolling resistance of the
wheels. Lance took an active role in examining every detail. Everything is
tested in wind tunnels from frames, body position, helmets, clothes, even
the
shoes. 2\3 of the drag comes off the body, 1\3 comes off the bike. Clothes
are lighter somewhere on the average of 150 grams, and with materials used
to cut drag, minutes could be saved on a stage. Overall as much as five
minutes
on the final GC. Lance's training season adds up to as many miles as riding
nearly halfway around the globe.
Lances coach Johan is one of the smartest tacticians that ever rode the
tour and he speaks six languages, which allows him to coach a multi national
team like Discovery, even though really it's an American team. According to
Lance, Johan has almost never been wrong about his judgments of riders when
they will crack in a tour stage, and can even predict it to the day. At 14
years old,
Lance was already better then all the top triathletes. Lances heart can pump
9 gallons of blood per minute at maximum heart rate, and that heart rate can
reach an above average speed of 200 beats per minute. The average heart can
only pump 5 gallons per minute. This makes Lances heart a third more
effective
then an average man's heart. He was national champion and world champion
before cancer. After Cancer he lost 20 pounds so his power to weight ratio
went up by 10 percent, which is huge on the climbs.
Lance choose a cancer treatment that spared his lungs. Lance VO2 max test
was some of highest numbers for cyclists tested at the labs, and his lungs
extract far more oxygen then the average person. An impressive 83
milliliters of oxygen for every kilogram of body weight. He generates 500
watts of power at peak performance. An average healthy 20 year old extracts
a mere 45 milliliters of oxygen and generates 250 watts of power. Lance's
lungs are twice as efficient as the average racer. Lance is a physiological
freak since for reasons unknown to science, Lance's muscles built up much
less lactic acid then the average rider and his body eliminates that lactic
acid much more efficiently. When he exceeds his aerobic capacity like a
sprint to the finish Lance maintains full power longer then his rivals. The
toughest battles take place where the air is thinnest so to increase his
oxygen carrying capacity Lance trains and recovers at attitude. Lance
doesn't appear to have a drop in his oxygen uptake ability as he climbs up
at attitude higher and higher.
Lance's science bears out that all his genetic advantages combined with the
F1 team adds up to much more time then cheating by skirting controls,
substances and such. Lance is one of the most drug tested athletes on the
planet and he has never failed a test. Lance's climbing frames weigh about
as much as a paperback book and are extremely stiff, which Boron was used
to stiffen the bottom bracket. Lance is also know to always be
looking for a millimeter of change to make a difference. Bikes are tested
both in real and virtual wind tunnels. With the help of AMD computers,
frames and parts could be tested in virtual wind tunnels. Colors are used to
simulate high and low pressure areas which allow for changes to be made and
then finally tested in a real wind tunnel. Lance likes lightness and
stiffness because this translates into more pedal power being transferred to
the road.
Lance's tires are aged in a private cellar for six years before they are
really the Tour. Lances team time trail was the fastest in history averaging
37 mph. Lance's climbing bike was 100 grams lighter then previously giving
Lance a new advantage. Lance has changed the sport to bring more technology
and more precise training to the tour and has set the benchmark for
preparation to execution, and every possible related aspect of racing from
technology, training and equipment to make a champion. Giro, Trek, and Nike
came
together for the first time to make Lance and team discovery go even faster.
Lance is very good at cultivating information and getting it from different
sources. The best companies in the cycling business came together and pulled
their resources for Lance and it has never been done before. The main goal
was to work together to make Lance faster in the time trial.
Allied Aerospace in San Diego was used for wind tunnels tests. The same
technology for aircraft was applied to the bikes. Technology collected over
the last few years was brought to the whole team. Every year Trek has looked
at ways to improve Lances equipment and bikes. This year's TT bar for
Lance was half as light as last year's bar.
Lances TT bike is different then the team TT bikes because it is designed to
go
in a straight line very quickly. Team TT
bikes were designed differently with more agility. The TT bike is more
heavy, but more aerodynamic then the climbing bikes. The Madon SL was
created for the best climbers and is 100 grams lighter then TT bike. Knowing
you bike is 100 grams lighter is also a psychological difference in the
riders frame of mind. Lance gives the thumbs up or down for products and
Giro and Trek often rebuild products to meet Lances expectations.
Chris Carmichael is Lances manager, and his motivator. Chris job is to add
the human touch to the F1 team. Chris tracks Lances training progress in
Colorado. Chris tested Lances VO2 level at 80 which is very high, one of the
highest tests recorded for a cyclist. Also Lance is tested for lactate
threshold tests at Colorado Springs. This measures the ability to work
through the muscle burn and Lances threshold is very high. At Chris's camp
he says to imagine the road is on fire like hot coals. Instead of pulling up
from the down stroke, imagine the bottom of the pedal stroke is hot, and you
want to get your foot away from there as quick as possible. Pulling back
over the top instead of pulling up. Lance has made a lot of improvements to
the pedal strokes. Lance has made a 10 percent improvement in his pedal
stoke from 1992 to 1999. His high cadence on the climbs is one, most
notably.
Nike has worked with Lance for four years. Lances cycling clothes for 2005
is
the best ever, a hodgepodge of specially designed materials to reduce drag
and is better then any riders in the tour. Nike offered to trim 200 grams
off of Lances TT suit which they say would amount to 45 seconds quicker in
the TT. The swift suit was revealed at the Tour this year. Four different
fabrics were engineered and added to reduce the drag in the exact spots
Lance needed it. The dimples on a golf ball which are used to add
aerodynamics were also applied to the jerseys to reduce drag in just the
right places. Seams were removed to reduce drag and with all the high
and low pressure zones adjusted with the right fabrics savings of 2
kilometers per hour was added. The Giro helmet is no longer a two piece
shell but only one molded piece, the fastest helmet in the world. The time
savings with this new helmet over the old helmet was 23 seconds. The gloves
were also designed similar to the swift suit for aerodynamics. The glove is
a gauntlet fit into the suit so as to be seamless. The aerodynamics of Nike
shoes for Lance are a special secret, but it has an extremely hard bottom
plate, carbon fiber.
Lance has always told Nike and Trek to push every year for better
improvements as long as it is legal within the rules. According to the F1
team, the tunnel tests which brings together all the best technology from
Giro, Trek, Nike, etc, added up to three or four minutes a stage.
A. Dumas Fred
> I've got a medal from Elite Nationals that I won on a frame
> that I paid $20 for used. It's a Bridgestone track frame
> which I imagine hasn't been imported for several decades.
> I'm guessing it was 15-20 years old at the time I took my
> medal.
What colour medal? If not gold then you know the next reply.
GoneBeforeMyTime
> Money gives you advantages in any sport. Studies have shown that
> national achievement at the Olympics is directly related to either 1)
> the wealth of the country or 2) the amount of resources a poorer
> government is willing to throw at it (ie. East Germany in the 70's and
> 80's).
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
You said "any" sport. There are sports where money obviously can be a big
advantage when you can apply it to technology, but when it comes down to
sports where it's pretty much just based on physical performance, then a lot
of competitors can afford to do the same that everyone else is doing.
Talking about eating right, sleeping, traveling, decent coaches and
trainers. For some sports, boatloads of excess money is not going to help
that much more. If you don't have the genes like a Nigerian runner, then you
don't. A lot of those guys from the old days had limited resources and
money, but their genes is what counts when it came to winning. Bolts from
Jamaica had the genes at the games, and Jamaica is not that rich of a
country, neither is Nigeria.
Brad Anders
Lance" wasn't a significant factor in his winning 7 TDF's. All that
crap about his aged tires and 100 gm on his TT bike making a huge
difference is simply ridiculous hyperbole that's been debunked 100
times on r.b.tech. Wind tunnel testing for the top TT riders has been
standard practice for years, Lance is no different. I don't believe
for a second that his new helmet saved 23 seconds in his TT, either,
as that is a purely theoretical prediction based on a fractional
difference in drag as measured in a tunnel, and extrapolated to real-
world conditions. If it made him think he was going to save 23
seconds, that's probably where 99% of the benefit came from. IMO,
Lance's TT position sucks, anyway, though he's not as bad as Indurain,
who TT'ed on raw power.
The real "Science of Lance" that made a difference was his training
preparation and rigorous use of testing to assess when he needed to do
next, along with meticulous preparation, proper mental attitude, team
preparation and management, and a hell of a lot of good luck. That's
what he did that resulted in a competitive advantage, and I salute him
for doing a better job than his competitors did. Even his competitors
acknowledge that Lance's passion for cycling and attention to detail
is simply far beyond that of nearly all pros, plenty of quotes out
there on this.
Brad Anders
Anton Berlin
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Someone's got a man crush on Lance.
(ps - that's some of the most faggy bullshit I've ever read to cover
up one simple fact - Lance dopes.)
Anton Berlin
Started out as scientist and ended as a gushing little schoolgirl.
You and GBMT should try to go 50/50 on buying Lance's jock strap off
EBAY and take turns licking the cup.
The 'passion' comes from the fact he's doping and the training doesn't
burn him out and trash him like clean non-doped humans.
Mark J.
[...]
> There may be a dark truth to all this that involves all those that Floyd
> named. But right now, nobody here has anything new to support such
> claims. Floyd is not credible. This isn't "Lost" with Floyd playing the
> part of Ben, the least-likely to be redeemed and yet, in the fairy-tale
> ending, even his sins are wiped clean. He can wish, but he won't get.
I think Floyd's the smoke monster.
Mark J.
GoneBeforeMyTime
I agree, that if Lance doped, this documentary was an excellant and very
cleaver diversion. If he didn't dope, then it's the Science of Lance.
GoneBeforeMyTime
The Science of Lance was about using and improving every aspect including
gear and technology. I'm doubting he would of won 7 tours without Giro, Nike
and Trek working together to make his go faster, IMO. Also, I'm not sure
Lance was so lucky all those years, perhaps instead Johan is an awesome baby
sitter, although I was impressed when he cut across the course during the
tour. Excellant bike handling skills.
Fred Flintstein
It was bronze, the team pursuit. And it was a post-Olympic
year so lots of fast guys had to retire and get jobs. That's
the only way it can happen for fat old freds.
Fred Flintstein
K. Fred Gauss
> Well, then that gets back to cycling not being an a sport of the pure
> physical achievement of the human body like running, track and field,
Have you ever heard of Ben Johnson or Marion Jones?
> other
> sports like soccer where they can't gain a tremendous edge like that,
The Operation Puerto evidence that was turned over to FIFA was "lost".
DA74
wrote:
>
>
> That is so yesterday's news. I don't get it. All these "revelations" that
> have been hashed out already in the past. Discussed here, discussed
> elsewhere. What has happened to change anything? Landis making allegations
> to support already-suspect blood values? C'mon guys, really, WHAT HAS
> CHANGED???
>
> I'll tell you what has changed. We have a "confession" from someone who lied
> to us for over two years about this innocence, someone who sucked the life
> blood (interesting metaphor in this case) from people very close to him,
> dragging those poor folk down with him. *That* is something people should go
> to prison for. Not just fraud, but knowing full-well the effect of that
> fraud on those around him.
What's changed is that we have a "confession" AND a boatload of very
specific allegations that cover a large swath of civil and criminal
jurisdictions. Oh yeah motherfucker things have changed because big
brother is now on the case. You remember BALCO right? Nothing happened
overnight. The wheels turned slowly and the net tightened bit by bit.
Don't hold your breath but be sure of one thing - things have changed.
> We cannot trust anything Floyd has said without a solid trail of real
> evidence. Right now we have allegations supporting suspicion. Think about
> that. If you were trying to bring someone down, you'd fabricate a story to
> support whatever suspicion people already had.
Who cares if you think Floyd can or cannot be trusted. All that needs
to happen is for the feds to think his allegations are worthy of
further investigation. Your opinion means exactly nothing.
> There may be a dark truth to all this that involves all those that Floyd
> named. But right now, nobody here has anything new to support such claims.
> Floyd is not credible. This isn't "Lost" with Floyd playing the part of Ben,
> the least-likely to be redeemed and yet, in the fairy-tale ending, even his
> sins are wiped clean. He can wish, but he won't get.
He can wish for a lot of things but I think he's probably working on
getting some immunity right about now.
> Forget Floyd. Look for the money trail. There is no way that much cheating
> went on, that much money changed hands, without a money trail somewhere.
> These drugs aren't made up in a garage, and aren't distributed by the ice
> cream truck and eaten like candy. The truth is out there.
Thanks for the hot tip Miss Marple. But let me clue you in on a little
bit of crime 101 - There is nothing to investigate unless someone
makes an allegation of a crime. Floyd is the one who just opened the
door.
Now let me give you a hot tip: You might want to diversify that
product line stat because once the fredsters learn that it wasn't the
Trek's winning those yellows they're gonna be pissed.
You're Welcome,
DA74
Mike Jacoubowsky
understand the simplest of concepts.
Nothing has changed.
Floyd has said nothing, not one thing, that hasn't been said by others
before. Floyd has not, as far as we know, presented one piece of
evidence beyond his supposed recollections of events. EVERYTHING Floyd
has said has been said by others here. Are rbr posters clairvoyant?
OK, I'm wrong, something has changed. The calendar. It's getting close
to TdF time again, so bike racing is in the popular press for a brief
period of time, and it's during that brief period of time that people
can create a stir with unsupported allegations.
I'm not saying that his claims are untrue. I'm not in a position to know
that. But y'know, cell phones with cameras have been around for how
long? And we're to believe that there's no photos in existence anywhere
that show this equipment, that nobody at any time thought it might be
nice to have something like that as leverage in case a negotiation
wasn't going well or to gain favor in the event of things being
discovered and subsequent prosecution?
Landis is being paid attention to not because he's brought anything new
(in terms of "evidence") to the party, but rather because he's got an
incredible personal story.
As for "Big Brother" being involved, fine, let's see what they can dig
up. Bring it on. Maybe there's some possibility we'll finally get to the
truth in all this. They're certainly going to make some folk squirm,
even if they're not guilty. Maybe they'll dig up something new,
something real. But don't give Landis any credit whatsoever for
"exposing" anything. He hasn't. He's just a possible wagon the Feds or
whomever can hitch up to and make it appear there's a reason for
investigating this. But those reasons exist with or without Landis. They
always have. This is all about publicity, not facts.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"DA74" <davida...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:94f7216c-b956-4cf7...@t34g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
A. Dumas Fred
> A. Dumas Fred wrote:
>> Fred Flintstein wrote:
>>> I've got a medal from Elite Nationals that I won on a frame
>>> that I paid $20 for used. It's a Bridgestone track frame
>>> which I imagine hasn't been imported for several decades.
>>> I'm guessing it was 15-20 years old at the time I took my
>>> medal.
>>
>> What colour medal? If not gold then you know the next reply.
>
> It was bronze
If only you had used a better frame.
Betty Munro
I promised not to reveal his facebook address.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<davida...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the hot tip Miss Marple. But let me clue you in on a little
>bit of crime 101 - There is nothing to investigate unless someone
>makes an allegation of a crime. Floyd is the one who just opened the
>door.
Hardly. The basis of an investigation can start from many sources
other than an allegation of a crime.
marco
> Nothing has changed.
>
> Floyd has said nothing, not one thing, that hasn't been said by others
I'm cumming late to this circle jerk, so forgive me if this has been
mentioned already... You say nothing is new, but as far as WADA & USADA are
concerned, something has definitely changed, namely they have an eye witness
to the drug use. According to their criteria for prosecution, an eye witness
qualifies as direct evidence. Now of course you can argue validly that Floyd
is a massively tainted witness with poor credibility, but nonetheless, he's
the first to come forward and claim to have witnessed the actual acts in all
the sordid detail. That is new, is it not? Clearly those authorities think
something is new otherwise they wouldn't be revving up.
DA74
Thank you bro. He deals Treks so he's freaking out about this whole
thing. I'm trying to help him but he's hurt...so be gentle. It takes a
village.
-DA74
B. Lafferty
> On May 28, 8:27 am, "marco"<marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> Nothing has changed.
>>
>>> Floyd has said nothing, not one thing, that hasn't been said by others
>>> before...<snip>
>>
>> I'm cumming late to this circle jerk, so forgive me if this has been
>> concerned, something has definitely changed, namely they have an eye witness
>> to the drug use. According to their criteria for prosecution, an eye witness
>> qualifies as direct evidence. Now of course you can argue validly that Floyd
>> is a massively tainted witness with poor credibility, but nonetheless, he's
>> the first to come forward and claim to have witnessed the actual acts in all
>> the sordid detail. That is new, is it not? Clearly those authorities think
>> something is new otherwise they wouldn't be revving up.
>
> Thank you bro. He deals Treks so he's freaking out about this whole
> thing. I'm trying to help him but he's hurt...so be gentle. It takes a
> village.
>
> -DA74
Anton Berlin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Keep advertising you won a bronze on a $20 frame and Tiermeyer will
send his goons out to break your time trialing thumbs.
Mike Jacoubowsky
On May 28, 8:27 am, "marco" <marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > Nothing has changed.
>
> > Floyd has said nothing, not one thing, that hasn't been said by
> > others
> > before... <snip>
>
> I'm cumming late to this circle jerk, so forgive me if this has been
> mentioned already... You say nothing is new, but as far as WADA &
> USADA are
> concerned, something has definitely changed, namely they have an eye
> witness
> to the drug use. According to their criteria for prosecution, an eye
> witness
> qualifies as direct evidence. Now of course you can argue validly that
> Floyd
> is a massively tainted witness with poor credibility, but nonetheless,
> he's
> the first to come forward and claim to have witnessed the actual acts
> in all
> the sordid detail. That is new, is it not? Clearly those authorities
> think
> something is new otherwise they wouldn't be revving up.
Thank you bro. He deals Treks so he's freaking out about this whole
thing. I'm trying to help him but he's hurt...so be gentle. It takes a
village.
-DA74
===============
People overstate the role of Lance and Trek sales. During the first
three years, it was quite a ride. Since then, the effect has been more
global than local, with Lance increasing awareness of cycling in general
more so than Trek in particular. Yet the "tax" (cost of sponsoring Lance
and the two teams he's brought with him) is entirely upon Trek and its
dealers shoulders. Se la vie.
Hitching a ride on the Floyd train means you're willing to ignore the
complete and total lack of any corroborating evidence (so far at least),
ignore his willingness to suck the life's blood out of people to further
his own lies, and pretend that all this is new.
So far, nothing Floyd has said couldn't be constructed by any rbr
theorist, creating a scenario based upon prior well-known allegations.
As I said, it's amazing that there's no solid evidence, no camera phone
photos, to back up anything said so far. This wasn't 1990, when you had
to document events by writing them down or use a film camera or a Xerox
machine. All these events took place during an era of high-tech cell
phones (camera phones first became widespread in 2002, after Sanyo
introduced a number of them and everyone else followed quickly).
And the $$$ involved are considerable. Where did the money come from,
and where did it go? And which labs were supplying the very
sophisticated doping materials which absolutely could not have been
manufactured outside of a modern commercial laboratory?
So perhaps I should state it more clearly. There are no new FACTS that
have come forth. Just repeated allegations and scenarios to fit those
allegations, recently produced by a witness with an extreme lack of
credibility. And an amazing number of people suddenly willing to hitch a
ride on that person's train, despite what he has done to others close to
him, in attempts to feed his own ego and/or self-delusion.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"DA74" <davida...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:725d653d-0972-4f6e...@j12g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
Fred Flintstein
Absolutely! Trek and Nike didn't give a shit about me.
It was a travesty, totally unfair.
As I think back on it, I benefited much more from
faster people having to quit racing and get jobs than
from faster people getting popped for dope. There were
quite a few of the former and none out of many
candidates of the latter.
Fred Flintstein
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:rjbvv55cgvp2bg6qo...@4ax.com...
+1
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Brad Anders
Personally, I think Lance is an asshole. Everything I said about why
he's a winner is well-known, including the comments from other pros
who have remarked about his dedication. As for his doping, I haven't
seen any evidence he's doing anything that his competition doesn't
to.
Oh, and if I only want to watch "clean non-doped humans" in pro
cycling, please send me a list, thanks.
Brad Anders
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:6dmdnbnRTvrPeGLW...@giganews.com...
Just because people act stoned doesn't mean they *are* stoned. There's a
difference between allegation and proof.
But I'll submit that there is very strong evidence on rbr to support your
allegation.
B. Lafferty
Ben Trovato
> On May 27, 4:29 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > "The end result of the technique, Ashenden explained, is that a
> > rider's red blood cell population stays constant during a stage race
> > such as the Tour de France, rather than dropping as would happen in a
> > normal person."
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/biological-passport-expert-taking-lan...
>
> > Now match this to :
>
> >http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2009/armstrong-tour-blood-valu...
>
> I just realized that the ultimate effect of the "blood passport" was
> to stimulate the invention of microdosing, which has led to a much
> more effective and efficient use of EPO by the pro peoloton. Thanks,
> Ashenden!
>
> "Necessity is the mother of invention"
>
> Brad Anders
Makes you wonder who was the genius who figured out EPO would be a
great masking agent...
Brad Anders
Beta blockers.
Brad Anders