Wow . . . .
Fred Gringioni
view of the one that completely blocked the road.
And why did Cav go straight on that right hand turn?
Andre
wrote:
> That was the craziest series of crashes ever. I'd like to see the helicopter
> view of the one that completely blocked the road.
>
> And why did Cav go straight on that right hand turn?
Cav is last year's Boonen at the Tour
thirty-six
Rumour was spread there would be a motor check.
thirty-six
What would you do if you thought the Gestapo was policing Brussels and
you had an illegal motorbike?
thirty-six
Or how about, how does a flyweight sprinter ride faster than a
pursuiter with a similar cadence, huh?
Anton Berlin
Europe knows the shit is slick as snot.
thirty-six
> It's the god damn white paint on the road. Anyone that's rode in
> Europe knows the shit is slick as snot.
Well we dont usually switch the nitrous on in mid corner.
Scott
Higher gear??
Scott
wrote:
> That was the craziest series of crashes ever. I'd like to see the helicopter
> view of the one that completely blocked the road.
>
> And why did Cav go straight on that right hand turn?
Simple. Panic (i.e. unplanned) application of too much front brake w/
out corresponding application of increased lean/force on the bars, and
the natural tendency of a bike is to stand up and go straight. It's a
function of steering geometry. Put on the front brake too hard in the
middle of a turn and the bike will naturally right itself. The higher
the trail for a given bike, the more likely you'll see the
phenomenon.
My guess is he realized he was coming in too hot, or someone moved
over on him a bit, and he grabbed the brake a little too hard.
Could've happened to anyone.
Michael Press
<25c7070b-f23c-4ab6...@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Andre <orad...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think they miss George.
He takes flak here; but
knows how to control a peloton:
get out in front and make them work.
Don't take "no" for an answer.
--
Michael Press
thirty-six
>
> > Or how about, how does a flyweight sprinter ride faster than a
> > pursuiter with a similar cadence, huh?
>
> Higher gear??
I dont see it being physically possible. The muscle bulk is similar
yet the speed is greater. This is only really possible using a higher
cadence. If the forces generated are completely by the legs for
someone such as M 2av3nd!sh, then the rider is at high risk of tendon
injury to make the accelerations shown. There is just no way that
someone could put in absolute maximal short burst winning efforts at
130rpm (exactly) day after day without succumbing to injury.
I find his 'ability' highly suspect. Let's see what progresses with
the Tour now they have announced they will be checking for motorised
assistance in the bikes. I suspect we wont be seeing many wins from
the man from the isle.
Fred Gringioni
"Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-BB6901....@news.albasani.net...
: In article
Dumbass -
George gets flak for his lack of killer instinct when it comes to winning.
I can't recall anyone ever saying he didn't know how to work. He's good at
that, he's good at leading out.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Fred Gringioni
"Scott" <hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10e0e9d8-85ca-48cd...@a30g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 4, 9:52 am, "Fred Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> That was the craziest series of crashes ever. I'd like to see the
> helicopter
> view of the one that completely blocked the road.
>
> And why did Cav go straight on that right hand turn?
::Simple. Panic (i.e. unplanned) application of too much front brake w/
::out corresponding application of increased lean/force on the bars, and
::the natural tendency of a bike is to stand up and go straight. It's a
::function of steering geometry. Put on the front brake too hard in the
::middle of a turn and the bike will naturally right itself. The higher
::the trail for a given bike, the more likely you'll see the
::phenomenon.
Dumbass -
Back when I raced I probably participated in ~500 crits (not counting
practice crits) and never experienced that. Did I not brake hard enough in
turns?
H. Fred Kveck
thirty-six <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote:
And if, for whatever reason, he doesn't win as often, that'll be proof enough to
you that he was "motorised" in the past. What brilliant logic you have.
K. Fred Gauss
Are you a French gym teacher?
Michael Press
"Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote:
That is what I am getting at.
He exhibits a killer instinct
when leading the charge.
Columbia misses him already.
--
Michael Press
Scott
First, he (assuming you're talking about Cav) is not a flyweight.
He's certainly more muscular than any "pursuiter" in the Tour.
Secondly, given that he's a sprinter it's a sure bet he's packing a
bit more fast twitch muscle than a pursuiter, and he also trains to
maximize the systems that allow him to sprint fast day in and day
out. If you don't understand how a sprinter pushes a higher gear, or
goes faster, than a pursuiter, well...
Scott
wrote:
> "Scott" <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
It's simple steering geometry. If you're up to try it, next time
you're approaching the apex of a turn at speed, brake hard with the
front brake only and put no additional pressure on the bars to hold
the bike into the turn. It'll be hard to do deliberately, but the
bike WILL stand up and go straight. Just 'cause you haven't ever done
it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Fred Gringioni
: In article <i0r5tg$oss$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
Dumbass -
Leading out is simpler than winning. I wouldn't call it a killer instinct.
It's still a good skill to have. You gotta be good at something to make it
in professional racing.
Fred Gringioni
Dumbass -
I didn't say that it didn't happen.
TheCoz
Should have brought Greipel.
Coz
Scott
Well, then... to answer your question: No, you didn't brake hard
enough, at least not hard enough to overcome your simultaneous
steering corrections.
K. Fred Gauss
If I ever hit the brakes at the apex of a turn, there was panic
involved. This doesn't sound like something I'm in a big hurry to test.
Michael Press
"Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote:
And I do.
Leading out includes chasing down a break.
If I could do that, it would satisfy my blood lust.
> It's still a good skill to have. You gotta be good at something to make it
> in professional racing.
--
Michael Press
Fred Gringioni
: > : > Dumbass -
: > : >
: > : > George gets flak for his lack of killer instinct when it comes to
: > winning.
: > : >
: > : > I can't recall anyone ever saying he didn't know how to work. He's
good
: > at
: > : > that, he's good at leading out.
: > : >
: > : > thanks,
: > : >
: > : > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
: > :
: > : That is what I am getting at.
: > : He exhibits a killer instinct
: > : when leading the charge.
: > : Columbia misses him already.
: >
: >
: >
: > Dumbass -
: >
: > Leading out is simpler than winning. I wouldn't call it a killer
instinct.
:
: And I do.
: Leading out includes chasing down a break.
: If I could do that, it would satisfy my blood lust.
Dumbass -
They're way, way different skills.
George is a prime example. He's got loads of one and hardly any of the
other.
If you want to give him the virtual blow job and call working a "killer
instinct", go ahead. It's just semantics. But if he has killer instinct,
then he's lacking in something else when it comes to being a team leader and
winning races (Paris-Roubaix).
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Grinigoni.
--D-y
wrote:
> : > George gets flak for his lack of killer instinct when it comes to
> winning.
> : >
> : > I can't recall anyone ever saying he didn't know how to work. He's good
> at
> : > that, he's good at leading out.
> : >
> : > thanks,
> : >
> : > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> :
> : That is what I am getting at.
> : He exhibits a killer instinct
> : when leading the charge.
> : Columbia misses him already.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Leading out is simpler than winning. I wouldn't call it a killer instinct.
>
> It's still a good skill to have. You gotta be good at something to make it
> in professional racing.
(offered for your approval):
Phase I: Regional/National, USA, gets noticed.
Phase II: Rides for Lance. Not as a leadout man since Lance doesn't
sprint much; sets pace, does work uphill or on flats as needed.
Captain of Lance domestiques, perhaps.
Phase II.V: Domestique for Contador, TdF win 2007
Phase III: Rides as effective leadout man for Cavendish, setting up
the final run-in, approx. two more leadout men left until Cavendish
takes over at the line.
Phase IV: Whatever it is he's doing now for BMC.
Phase V: Grows fangs when faced with the finality of actual retirement
as a racer. Chucks it all and finally wins Paris-Roubaix; retires
immed.
--D-y
Fred Gringioni
:
: And I do.
: Leading out includes chasing down a break.
: If I could do that, it would satisfy my blood lust.
Dumbass -
Upon further reflection, this is one of the stupider statements I've read
here lately (outside of Laff). If chasing down a break constitutes "killer
instinct", then 90% of the Cat 4s in the United States possess "killer
instinct".
Retarded.
thirty-six
> On Jul 4, 4:02 pm, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 4 July, 22:15, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Or how about, how does a flyweight sprinter ride faster than a
> > > > pursuiter with a similar cadence, huh?
>
> > > Higher gear??
>
> > I dont see it being physically possible. The muscle bulk is similar
> > yet the speed is greater. This is only really possible using a higher
> > cadence. If the forces generated are completely by the legs for
> > someone such as M 2av3nd!sh, then the rider is at high risk of tendon
> > injury to make the accelerations shown. There is just no way that
> > someone could put in absolute maximal short burst winning efforts at
> > 130rpm (exactly) day after day without succumbing to injury.
>
> > I find his 'ability' highly suspect. Let's see what progresses with
> > the Tour now they have announced they will be checking for motorised
> > assistance in the bikes. I suspect we wont be seeing many wins from
> > the man from the isle.
>
> First, he (assuming you're talking about Cav) is not a flyweight.
> He's certainly more muscular than any "pursuiter" in the Tour.
> Secondly, given that he's a sprinter it's a sure bet he's packing a
> bit more fast twitch muscle
There's the clue. 130rpm is the sort of limit a non-specialist would
sprint at. If endowed with greater fast twitch fibres, then control
of high cadence with power is easier than limiting cadence (with high
gears) to that to be expected with an all-round road rider. In other
words, more power shouild be available through higher pedal
speeds.
Fred Gringioni
"thirty-six" <thirt...@live.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fa5cc1f4-cae7-49d2...@a30g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
Re: the rpms: that may be generally true, but it's definitely not true in
all cases.
Michael Press
"Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Michael Press" <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:rubrum-CAA946....@news.albasani.net...
> :
> : And I do.
> : Leading out includes chasing down a break.
> : If I could do that, it would satisfy my blood lust.
>
> Retarded.
It's filthy job, but somebody has to do it.
--
Michael Press
Ryan Cousineau
wrote:
> "Scott" <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
You probably braked before the turn, like a sane person.*
The phenomenon is real and easy to experience on a lot of motorcycles
(though I had a 16"-wheeled Katana with anti-dive that was more likely
to tuck its front wheel under braking than to straighten up), but on
bikes the bigger effect is probably that if you're going to do
emergency braking, you'll probably try to straighten up the bike
yourself so you don't fall over immediately.
In practice, it hardly matters what the root cause is. If you get
caught having to emergency brake in a corner, you tend to either fall
down or straighten your line as you brake. Joseba Beloki can explain
the less seen third option of getting your rear wheel sideways and
high-siding.
*motorcycle racers and some bike racers brake through turns. This is
faster, but insane.
Fred Gringioni
"Ryan Cousineau" <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6afb4ddb-3244-4bf8...@z30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
My instinct was that braking in turns leads to a much higher probability of
sliding out. So ya, I'd brake before entering the turn.
The motorcycle thing is to accelerate once you're in the turn. The force on
the rear wheel translates to a downforce (think wheelie, lifting the front
tire off the ground, an equivalent force presses the rear tire into the
pavement).
thirty-six
> "Ryan Cousineau" <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
A small amount of trail braking during the lean in stabilises a
typical racing bike, permitting greater cornering force on the front
wheel and the bike as a whole. Use both brakes lightly in the wet for
lean in. A good bike handler can lift the rear wheel while braking
into a dry corner and still retain full control. Downhill practice
makes high speed combined cornering and braking easier to face.
Scott
what, exactly, are you trying to say?
H. Fred Kveck
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 4, 4:39 pm, "Fred Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Back when I raced I probably participated in ~500 crits (not counting
> > practice crits) and never experienced that. Did I not brake hard enough in
> > turns?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>
> You probably braked before the turn, like a sane person.*
I'd say he probably kept the countersteering going deep into the turn, which
should counteract the front brake-stands-the-bike-up effect, or he was naturally
easing off the front brake as he got further into athe turn. I think Scott is
correct. The easiest way to tell, for me, that the front brake wants to stand the
bike up is that you run wide on the exit if you've been on the front brake too hard
too late.
> The phenomenon is real and easy to experience on a lot of motorcycles
> (though I had a 16"-wheeled Katana with anti-dive that was more likely
> to tuck its front wheel under braking than to straighten up),
The anti-dive on Suzukis essentially closed the fork compression valve, which has
the effect of locking it up. No fork compression into a turn will cause the front
wheel to tuck.
> but on bikes the bigger effect is probably that if you're going to do
> emergency braking, you'll probably try to straighten up the bike
> yourself so you don't fall over immediately.
>
> In practice, it hardly matters what the root cause is. If you get
> caught having to emergency brake in a corner, you tend to either fall
> down or straighten your line as you brake. Joseba Beloki can explain
> the less seen third option of getting your rear wheel sideways and
> high-siding.
I don't know that I agree with that. I've been descending and gotten into a turn
that tightens up such that my speed is too fast for the later part of the turn. I've
still eased up on the front and trailed in on the back brake, while working at
keeping the bike tipped over. A couple of times, the rear wheel has broken loose
because of a bump but I've always been able to ease off the rear brake long enough to
get it back in line. Not pretty, but it's worked.
I thought Beloki's problem was that he got the rear hung out and a tire peeled,
which led to the highside.
> *motorcycle racers and some bike racers brake through turns. This is
> faster, but insane.
It's a matter of what the rider is comfortable with.
H. Fred Kveck
"Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The motorcycle thing is to accelerate once you're in the turn. The force on
> the rear wheel translates to a downforce (think wheelie, lifting the front
> tire off the ground, an equivalent force presses the rear tire into the
> pavement).
I think it's kind of hard to realistically compare motorcycles and bicycles in
turns. Firstly, motorcycles tend to start accelerating mid-turn but they generally
have some throttle load on on entry. Yes, adding gas will change the load on the
front wheel, but a lot of that depends on how far over the bike is leaned. That's
because the bike is driving off the side of the tire when it's really leaned over.
Another difference between motorcycles and bicycles is the significant difference in
the width of the front and rear tires. As you lean a motorcycle over, the geometry
changes because of that width difference. Bicycles pretty rarely get leaned over as
far as motorcycles (in races, of course) and don't have anything approaching the same
tire contact patch.
Kevin Schwantz said that if you lose the front (on a motorcycle) in a turn, the
likely cause is overloading the front tire.
Phil
This is true only if the wheels are pointed straight, iow the
handlebar has not been turned. When you go into
a turn at speed you do it by leaning the bike. Putting the front brake
on in such a case is just a plain bad idea.
If the bike is turning because it is leaning the poster is right it
will want to stand up and go straight. HOWEVER
if the front wheel has been turned at all and the front brake is
applied while in a turn, it will bring you down in
a heartbeat.
Scott
Since no one corners at speed w/out leaning, the notion that the front
end will behave a certain way if hard braking is applied while turning
the bars is moot.
William Fred
news:i0tc97$dg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> If you want to give him the virtual blow job and call working a
> "killer instinct", go ahead. It's just semantics. But if he has killer
> instinct, then he's lacking in something else when it comes to being a
> team leader and winning races (Paris-Roubaix).
You keep saying this, but I don't understand why. There was one year, I
forget which, where Hincapie was clearly one of the strongest at P-R.
Unfortunately for him, the lead group was four guys, him and three from
the same team. So, what was he supposed to do in that situation to
demonstrate "killer instinct?" If he had been given a shot of killer
instinct at that point, what tactically should he have done that would
have satisfied you?
Another year, he was in the lead group with Boonen, who at that point was
clearly stronger than Hincapie. Yet Hincapie was stronger than the other
guys in the group, so nobody was willing to work with Hincapie against
Boonen. Again, what was he supposed to do in that situation that would
have demonstrated killer instinct?
If you are arguing that he should have raced so as to not be in that
position, I don't get it since unless you are someone like Cancellara and
can ride everyone off your wheel and stay away, a lot of what happens in
the last 10 km seems to me to be chance (like a train coming through at
the wrong time) and no amount of killer instinct can compensate for luck.
The one time when all the stars aligned for him was that stage at the
tour, where he didn't have to work, and he didn't, and he won the stage.
Was that killer instinct or was that something else?
Watching snippets of a race like P-R on tv, it's hard for me to get a
sense of the team tactics, and how it can end up with the strongest guy
on the road in the lead group with 3 riders from the same team. Maybe in
that case it wasn't so much a lack of instinct from Hincapie as the lack
of team tactics. Bruyneel is great at grand tours, maybe he ain't so
good at classics, especially P-R?
--
Bill Fred
thirty-six
I find it extra-ordinary that world class sprinting on the road today
is repeatedly achieved by what I see as low pedal speeds. In a clean
environment, it just doesn't add up. Accelerations are higher as are
short term top speeds using higher pedal speeds. Sprint training
involves speed, acceleration and strength and all these should be used
in competition. Using brute strength surely cannot be continued for
long without enhancements of some kind?
Betty
> I find it extra-ordinary that world class sprinting on the road today
> is repeatedly achieved by what I see as low pedal speeds. In a clean
> environment, it just doesn't add up. Accelerations are higher as are
> short term top speeds using higher pedal speeds. Sprint training
> involves speed, acceleration and strength and all these should be used
> in competition. Using brute strength surely cannot be continued for
> long without enhancements of some kind?
thirty-six
from which I found "Also needed by a medical professional, is an
injury profile on each participating athlete to determine specific
needs with regard to injury prevention, or adaptation."
The high power levels required by world class sprinters result in
tendon damage with high gears. The damage caused requires much
remedial attention (possibly with IR and radio waves with massage and
hydrotherapy) of which cannot be fulfilled in 24hrs. Repeated abuse
means tendon attachments become inflamed and performance suffers
unless analgesics of some sort are administered. This risks
further ,more likely long term (possibly lifelong) damage of which
treatment will be difficult.
Fred Flintstein
> You keep saying this, but I don't understand why. There was one year, I
> forget which, where Hincapie was clearly one of the strongest at P-R.
> Unfortunately for him, the lead group was four guys, him and three from
> the same team. So, what was he supposed to do in that situation to
> demonstrate "killer instinct?" If he had been given a shot of killer
> instinct at that point, what tactically should he have done that would
> have satisfied you?
For me, Hincapie's failure to win big races has it's roots
in the off season when he repeatedly would sign a safe
contract with a team that had no intention of being competitive
in the races that favored him. Maybe someone with a killer
instinct would have swallowed some risk to address that.
Fred Flintstein
Fred Gringioni
"William Fred" <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9DACDBCF4...@130.133.4.11...
: "Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote in
: news:i0tc97$dg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
:
: > If you want to give him the virtual blow job and call working a
: > "killer instinct", go ahead. It's just semantics. But if he has killer
: > instinct, then he's lacking in something else when it comes to being a
: > team leader and winning races (Paris-Roubaix).
:
: You keep saying this, but I don't understand why. There was one year, I
: forget which, where Hincapie was clearly one of the strongest at P-R.
: Unfortunately for him, the lead group was four guys, him and three from
: the same team. So, what was he supposed to do in that situation to
: demonstrate "killer instinct?" If he had been given a shot of killer
: instinct at that point, what tactically should he have done that would
: have satisfied you?
<snip>
Dumbass -
That year there was nothing he could do.
In general though, he never makes the decisive attack. It's always someone
else that does it.
Some guys just don't have it tactically. It's hard to explain, but after you
watch someone for awhile, you can just tell. Some guys don't think, they
just push the pedals. Other guys are thinkers.
Scott
The lower pedal speeds are due to the advent of the 11t cog, and the
training that allows for a sprinter to have the power to turn 'em
over. The only 'enhancement' the typical top-level sprinter needs to
turn over the big gear day after day is a good night's sleep. It's not
like you're seeing track sprinters do points races in big gears,
relying on strength over leg speed. I can tell you from personal
experience that at the end of a long ride I can crank off one good
sprint in a much bigger gear than I'd ever consider using on the
track. I don't know what you're trying to get at with your
questioning, but I can tell you that I think you're really stretching
it to imply that the only reason road sprinters can use higher gears
at lower cadences is because of 'enhancements'. When you see points
racers sprinting at 125rpm in monster gears over and over again in a
single race, maybe you'll be on to something.
H. Fred Kveck
"Fred Gringioni" <soulinth...@gmail.com> wrote:
George has shown again and again that he's a "reactor" rather than the guy whom
makes a move, let alone the decisive one. And when he's in a small group, he still
tends to behave the same way. I've said it before: I think he's seriously lacking
confidence.
RicodJour
> In article <i0vq9c$8p...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "Fred Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "William Fred" <gcn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:Xns9DACDBCF4...@130.133.4.11...
> > :news:i0tc97$dg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> > :
> > : > If you want to give him the virtual blow job and call working a
> > : > "killer instinct", go ahead. It's just semantics. But if he has killer
> > : > instinct, then he's lacking in something else when it comes to being a
> > : > team leader and winning races (Paris-Roubaix).
> > :
> > : You keep saying this, but I don't understand why. There was one year, I
> > : forget which, where Hincapie was clearly one of the strongest at P-R.
> > : Unfortunately for him, the lead group was four guys, him and three from
> > : the same team. So, what was he supposed to do in that situation to
> > : demonstrate "killer instinct?" If he had been given a shot of killer
> > : instinct at that point, what tactically should he have done that would
> > : have satisfied you?
>
> > <snip>
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > That year there was nothing he could do.
>
> > In general though, he never makes the decisive attack. It's always someone
> > else that does it.
>
> > Some guys just don't have it tactically. It's hard to explain, but after you
> > watch someone for awhile, you can just tell. Some guys don't think, they
> > just push the pedals. Other guys are thinkers.
>
> George has shown again and again that he's a "reactor" rather than the guy whom
> makes a move, let alone the decisive one. And when he's in a small group, he still
> tends to behave the same way. I've said it before: I think he's seriously lacking
> confidence.
Have you seen his wife?
R
H. Fred Kveck
RicodJour <rico...@worldemail.com> wrote:
I'll revise my statement: "I think he's seriously lacking confidence on the bike."
Confidence is situational - his confidence with the ladies doesn't translate to his
bike.
thirty-six
> On 4 July, 17:31, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 4 July, 16:52, "Fred Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > That was the craziest series of crashes ever. I'd like to see the helicopter
> > > view of the one that completely blocked the road.
>
> > > And why did Cav go straight on that right hand turn?
>
>
> What would you do if you thought the Gestapo was policing Brussels and
> you had an illegal motorbike?
Phew, that was a close one, looks like he got rid of the evidence.