Interesting article studying race radio
Mike Jacoubowsky
Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the
difference between races with & without race radio. And with a different
outcome than many would think.
I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal;
you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you think
of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to the
Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my perception,
possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC guy didn't have
the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have your separate
sprinters & breakaway guys... something not possible with a classic
Lance/Bruyneel team.
Read & discuss. Interested to hear what others think.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Fred Flintstein
The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement
of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant
rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders
on their own.
Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an
aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results
were also very similar.
Fred Flintstein
RicodJour
wrote:
>
> The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement
> of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant
> rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders
> on their own.
>
> Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an
> aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results
> were also very similar.
Similar? WTF? Have you ever seen anyone write MIGUEL? Didn't think
so. They're not similar at all, dumbhat. :)~
R
Fred on a stick
> http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149
>
> Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the
> difference between races with & without race radio. And with a
> different outcome than many would think.
Hmmm. At the margin, more information tips the balance toward strategy vs.
tactics. Wonder what happens if you looked only at one-day races?
Ryan Cousineau
> On 3/23/2011 12:12 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> > http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149
> >
> > Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the
> > difference between races with & without race radio. And with a different
> > outcome than many would think.
> >
> > I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal;
> > you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you
> > think of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to
> > the Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my
> > perception, possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC
> > guy didn't have the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have
> > your separate sprinters & breakaway guys... something not possible with
> > a classic Lance/Bruyneel team.
> The two periods are very comparable. LANCE/Bruyneel was a refinement
> of Indurain/Echavarri. Their approaches were analogous, a dominant
> rider with support from riders that were excellent grand tour riders
> on their own.
>
> Both teams put a lot of effort into suppressing attacks by riding an
> aggressive tempo so it shouldn't be a surprise that the end results
> were also very similar.
Was the other consideration that in the pre-radio era, racing was more aggresively negative, due to the need to be more conservative (less info=less margin) in releasing and recovering breakaways?
Fredmaster of Brainerd
The article makes a big deal out of the fact that in the
radio era, the gap between breakaway and peloton is
larger, implying I guess that the peloton gives up more
efficiently in the radio era.
It's not clear that one should combine stages on which the
peloton just fails to catch the escape (gap less than a couple
minutes) and stages where the peloton gives up and mails it
in (> 8-10 minute gaps). It's also not clear what they did to
calculate this number - for example calculating the median
gap is much less sensitive to outliers than the mean gap,
which will get pulled up by the occasional stage with a
30 minute gap. This is also something where behavior is
different on mountain and flat stages.
In any case, I don't see how much that gap has to do with
radios. The chalkboard man existed before, so it's not like
the riders were unaware of the time gap.
Fredmaster Ben
Fred Flintstein
> On Mar 24, 2:31 pm, Ryan Cousineau<rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:36:36 PM UTC-7, Fred Flintstein wrote:
>>> On 3/23/2011 12:12 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>> http://inrng.com/?p=2149#more-2149
>>
>>>> Not what you would expect to see... somebody actually did study the
>>>> outcome than many would think.
>>
>>>> I'm not certain 1991-1996 vs 2001-2005 TdF stages are otherwise-equal;
>>>> you're comparing pre-Lance to Lance days, and regardless of what you
>>>> think of Lance himself, Bruyneel brought a different style of racing to
>>>> the Peloton, that of everyone dying for the King. At least it's my
>>>> perception, possibly wrong, that pre-Lance it was more likely your GC
>>>> guy didn't have the entire team at his disposal, but rather you'd have
Yes. I've never accepted that radios = more information.
Radios = faster transmission, which is not the same thing.
And I was wrong about Bruyneel refining Echavarri's strategy.
If you watch the Leth documentary 'Stars and Watercarriers',
you see many instances where the Molteni team sets a difficult
tempo as part of Merckx' strategy.
The 'Road of Pain segment' from the movie is worth watching
over and over.
Fred Flintstein
Victor Kan
<bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
> Yes. I've never accepted that radios = more information.
> Radios = faster transmission, which is not the same thing.
True, but with some time-sensitive information, having it arrive too
slowly or too late may change it from "information" to simply data or
even noise.
Amit Ghosh
> And I was wrong about Bruyneel refining Echavarri's strategy.
> If you watch the Leth documentary 'Stars and Watercarriers',
> you see many instances where the Molteni team sets a difficult
> tempo as part of Merckx' strategy.
>
dumbass,
are you disputing that armstrong and bruyneel invented GC team
tactics ?
armstrong also invented scouting the climbs before the race and
"spinning" a high cadence.
Fred
Don't forget the interweb, he invented that, too
Fred