If you're suspended for doping, can you challenge your buddy to city limit sign sprint?
LawBoy01
DirtRoadie
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-adds-time-to-williams-suspension
OK. I give up. Is this sign you speak of "organized by a USA Cycling
affiliated club?"
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/08/news/williams-suspension-extended_134118
DR
LawBoy01
>
> DR
I understand the rule, but it's dick-ish.
RicodJour
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-adds-time-to-williams-suspension
I want to see before and after pictures of his chin.
R
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Or is it lame to race while suspended?
He should have stuck to granfondos and RAAM, then
everyone would be happy.
Fredmaster Ben
LawBoy01
wrote:
Rally riders race at the front and get prizes. What's the effin'
difference if it doesn't count for anything but kudos?
snogfest
not sure about your neck of the woods, but here (NZL) in the not too
distant past we had a huge amateur v pro racer thing going in.
Amateurs only allowed to go to the Olympics and Commonwealth games
back then.
Sometimes people really do it for the love of the sport.
We had the winning-est team in international sport until rugby became
professional, just 15 years ago; the amount of stretching of the
amateur rules and outside forces forced the issue.
At least in the USA you don't have other countries and codes
plundering your sports-people.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Well, it is a race with categories of a sort:
http://northwestvelo.com/seward
To me it's not an issue of whether he gets prizes or
takes placings away from anyone or not. I think the
point of a suspension - especially for a Masters racer,
who ought to be racing for the adrenaline rush, not
any cash prizes - is that it takes away something of
value from the suspendee. You did something naughty
and got caught, so you're grounded for two years.
The Masters rider was just in it for bragging rights
(I hope), so depriving them of bragging-rights-only races
is a punishment that fits the crime.
Dope cops can and should not keep anyone from
winning all the city-limit sprints they can, or doing
totally unofficial races with their buddies, but there
was obviously some more organized race experience
that Williams wanted, and I think it might be an
appropriate punishment to ground him from that.
One can ask whether there ought to be any drug testing
resources devoted to Masters races anyway. I have
mixed feelings about this. I think maybe there should
be, not because I care whether Masters race results
are untainted, but because I think it's a societal good
to occasionally catch and embarrass someone who
takes a Masters race seriously enough to charge up
for it.
Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
As distasteful as it might be, meaning "having a USADA in the first
place" I'm guessing Williams got caught doing something he'd been
doing regularly for a good long time, and admitted to as little as
possible, while copping a sympathy plea that was also part cover-up of
his ongoing cheating. Which, absent OOC testing, might be ongoing.
Williams probably knew the terms of his "probation" and even though
the USADA is a chickenshit, Brave New World operation, they have the
power and apparently the resources to enforce their rules.
What's wrong with taking your sport seriously, no matter what the
amateur/pro status, or your age? I mean, as long as the kids are fed
and taken care of, etc. etc.?
Even though I'm not much a part of "the scene", I see people who are
serious riders and racers who are successful in life, meaning they
take life as a serious business at some basic level.
Are we nibbling at the old "delusional" attack here? I don't know any
Masters racers who think they are going to ride the TdF next year <g>.
I do know a few who have the discipline to take real good care of
their life responsibilities while carrying on a successful racing
program. That's a credit in my book.
--D-y
LawBoy01
>
> - Show quoted text -
Doping is bad. I just don't like sanctioning bodies extending their
tentacles into local racing and telling [un-]organizers that you can't
disc breaks in CX races, oh wait, now you can, but you can't use 34c
tires, etc., etc., etc. Same shit goes for busted dopers. Everybody
on the line thinks the doper is a dipshit, and the results don't for
anything. As much as Tyler Hamilton and Landis and maybe Lance have
damaged the sport, racing is in their blood. They should be allowed
to race, albeit not for state, regional, national or international
status.
RicodJour
>
> Doping is bad. I just don't like sanctioning bodies extending their
> tentacles into local racing and telling [un-]organizers that you can't
> disc breaks in CX races, oh wait, now you can, but you can't use 34c
> tires, etc., etc., etc. Same shit goes for busted dopers. Everybody
> on the line thinks the doper is a dipshit, and the results don't for
> anything. As much as Tyler Hamilton and Landis and maybe Lance have
> damaged the sport, racing is in their blood. They should be allowed
> to race, albeit not for state, regional, national or international
> status.
You left out other people that damaged the sport - Merckx, Anquetiel,
etc., etc.
These are the times we live in. Everybody's parents were dopers -
everybody used uppers and downers in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's. Just
different drugs for different eras. They're medicating the shit out
of kids to make them 'normal.' Like the old Monsanto catch phrase
says, "Life without chemicals would hardly be life at all."
Basically there are two choices, ignore it or start having open-fuel
races. Let the public decide which is more entertaining. That's what
it is, right - entertainment?
R
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
you obviously don't understand the structure of the sport.
getting a UCI or USAC license or sanctioning your event through them
is voluntary, but it means you agree to abide by their rules - which
by the way includes not competing in events not sanctioned by that
gov. body.
if someone doesn't like the rules they can set up their own governing
body or simply choose to compete in events run by other bodies.
kenny williams can compete in all the unsanctioned events he wants if
he doesn't care about his standing with USAC. it's as simple as that,
but as a member he's agreed to follow the rules and accept the
penalties that go along with breaking them.
this isn't the fucking law, lawboy, following the rules of USAC or the
UCI is completely voluntary.
RicodJour
>
> this isn't the fucking law, lawboy, following the rules of USAC or the
> UCI is completely voluntary.
Breaking the law is completely voluntary...except for my speeding. I
have a problem with the right foot.
R
LawBoy01
>
> - Show quoted text -
Amit,
Get a grip, man. You're presuming too much. All I said is that I
don't like the rule, it seems overreaching.
Regards,
Philip
Fred Flintstein
> What's wrong with taking your sport seriously, no matter what the
> amateur/pro status, or your age? I mean, as long as the kids are fed
> and taken care of, etc. etc.?
> Even though I'm not much a part of "the scene", I see people who are
> serious riders and racers who are successful in life, meaning they
> take life as a serious business at some basic level.
> Are we nibbling at the old "delusional" attack here? I don't know any
> Masters racers who think they are going to ride the TdF next year<g>.
> I do know a few who have the discipline to take real good care of
> their life responsibilities while carrying on a successful racing
> program. That's a credit in my book.
> --D-y
There is nothing wrong with taking your sport seriously. There is
everything wrong with expecting other people to take your sport
seriously. Our sport is ass deep with people that think their hobby
is much more important than a hobby.
Look at it this way. If a rider is going to commit some sin against
society through their riding, be it doping or be it neglecting
other responsibilities in order to maximize racing performance, a
necessary first step is to convince yourself that racing is more
important than it actually is. If you want people to stop charging
up for industrial park crits, the most efficient and cost effective
approach is to convince people to stop taking industrial park
crits so fucking seriously. And to not get bent out of shape over
other people that aren't emotionally mature enough to come to that
state.
When the NRC series came through here my kid and I went to see the
races. One of the points I made as we watched was that almost all
of the pros would be better off going to college rather than trying
to make a living racing bikes.
Fred Flintstein
Frederick the Great
<ef671559-1c3a-4359...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Amit Ghosh <amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
> if someone doesn't like the rules they can set up their own governing
> body or simply choose to compete in events run by other bodies.
USA Cycling is the only organization authorized to
Part 4. Conduct National Championships a n d
select teams to represent the United States of
America in international and Olympic
competition.
Part 5. Represent the sport of bicycle racing i n
the United States of America to other national,
international, and Olympic sports organizations.
so you cannot just set up your own governing body.
USA Cycling has the franchise. You will first have
to pry it from their cold, dead fingers. You up for
that, Anton?
--
Old Fritz
--D-y
wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with taking your sport seriously. There is
> everything wrong with expecting other people to take your sport
> seriously. Our sport is ass deep with people that think their hobby
> is much more important than a hobby.
Lots of people have avocations (dict. says from latin, "to call away")
that, again as the dictionary says, are their true passions in life,
although they might make all or most of their livings doing something
completely different.
Nothing abnormal or "wrong" about it, at least at first look.
> Look at it this way. If a rider is going to commit some sin against
> society through their riding, be it doping or be it neglecting
> other responsibilities in order to maximize racing performance
Lots of people neglect "other responsibilities" just to make a living.
My dad used to be forced under threat of instant termination with
*nothing* (pension, etc.) to work 16 hours a day, at times.
>, a
> necessary first step is to convince yourself that racing is more
> important than it actually is.
That's a personal decision. The Bosticks come to mind. I don't know
them personally or know *anything* about their private lives. Just as
an example of a totally serious racing couple (who did maintain
professional careers, come to think of it), did they commit a "sin
against society" by not giving up the racing to have a family? (which
they may have done for all I know; again, I'm only using them as a
kind of cardboard cutout example here)
I've taught my kids that the only "responsibility" they have is for
themselves. Surviving the Viet Nam War era (high school class of '67,
baby!) left me with a certain mindset about this "social contract"
bullshit, just to 'splain where I'm coming from.
> If you want people to stop charging
> up for industrial park crits, the most efficient and cost effective
> approach is to convince people to stop taking industrial park
> crits so fucking seriously.
That's where you are wrong wrong wrong. People "charge up" to feel
good (or different, anyhow <g>), to look good (ditto), to perform
better at work, so forth and so on.
You'll never "convince" the super-competitive among us to lighten up
on anything. Get real.
> And to not get bent out of shape over
> other people that aren't emotionally mature enough to come to that
> state.
Excuse me, but you sound a whole lot closer to being "bent out of
shape" than I do, if that's what you meant.
> When the NRC series came through here my kid and I went to see the
> races. One of the points I made as we watched was that almost all
> of the pros would be better off going to college rather than trying
> to make a living racing bikes.
Yeah, I've made that point over and over again with my kids, and I did
have a nice talk with one of our successful Junior racers about racing
to his utmost but also TCB on a career that will pay bills. From my
own experience in another area of life, don't you know.
They listened, but they're gonna do what they're gonna do. Then you
have to support them. I know what happens when parents don't support
their kids' interests. FWIW, not a whine because I did it my way <g>.
Suggestion: Use Dr. Eric Heiden as an example. Two sports careers
didn't keep him from becoming a doc. Hell, he could probably coasted
on that Wheaties contract, you know?
--D-y
Ben Trovato
> In article
> <ef671559-1c3a-4359-b15d-36ae627f7...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > if someone doesn't like the rules they can set up their own governing
> > body or simply choose to compete in events run by other bodies.
>
> USA Cycling is the only organization authorized to
>
> Part 4. Conduct National Championships a n d
> select teams to represent the United States of
> America in international and Olympic
> competition.
>
> Part 5. Represent the sport of bicycle racing i n
> the United States of America to other national,
> international, and Olympic sports organizations.
>
> so you cannot just set up your own governing body.
> USA Cycling has the franchise. You will first have
> to pry it from their cold, dead fingers. You up for
> that, Anton?
>
> --
> Old Fritz
google OBRA or FIAC.
Fred Flintstein
Just to clarify, I did not say that taking your sport seriously is
a crime against humanity. What I said was... "There is nothing
wrong with taking your sport seriously. There is everything wrong
with expecting other people to take your sport seriously. Our sport
is ass deep with people that think their hobby is much more
important than a hobby."
rbr is a hobby to me. I don't expect anyone to take it that
seriously.
As a side note, Eric Heiden took his skating very seriously. But
we both know Fatty Masters that take cycling more seriously than
he did and he did, in fact, ride the Tour.
Fred Flintstein
Fredmaster of Brainerd
> In article
> <ef671559-1c3a-4359-b15d-36ae627f7...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > if someone doesn't like the rules they can set up their own governing
> > body or simply choose to compete in events run by other bodies.
>
> USA Cycling is the only organization authorized to
>
> Part 4. Conduct National Championships a n d
> select teams to represent the United States of
> America in international and Olympic
> competition.
>
> Part 5. Represent the sport of bicycle racing i n
> the United States of America to other national,
> international, and Olympic sports organizations.
>
> so you cannot just set up your own governing body.
> USA Cycling has the franchise. You will first have
> to pry it from their cold, dead fingers. You up for
> that, Anton?
Actually they just have the franchise on national
championships and international competition.
As (se non vero, e) Ben Trovato pointed out, you can
promote a race and get it sanctioned (and insured)
through other organizations: FIAC, OBRA, CBR.
In principle, a USAC rider cannot ride in a race
sanctioned by another organization. In practice,
USAC does not enforce that rule, especially at the
category level. It would only become an issue
if you do something that really gets under their
skin or violates the spirit of a rule. That seems
arbitrary, but in practice it generally works. USAC
doesn't worry about some random rider showing
up to a local non-USAC MTB race on the weekend
(I don't think they even care about a Div 3 pro
doing the same). But if you race a non-USAC race
while suspended, it's thumbing your nose at the
suspension and you shouldn't be totally surprised
that the governing body gets agitated.
Fredmaster Ben
Frederick the Great
<35d85757-013a-4569...@n19g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Thus is Amit's advice confounded.
"if someone doesn't like the rules they can set up their own governing
body or simply choose to compete in events run by other bodies."
USAC rules the roost; and there is nothing anybody
can do about it, short of proving gross malfeasance
by USAC; and sustained efforts to do that have come
to naught.
--
Old Fritz
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
anyone can buy insurance and put on a cycling event. it doesn't have
to be through USAC, but organizers affiliate with some governing body
because there are advantages.
the question wasn't about who gets to crown national champions. i'm
not even sure that's even fundamentally that important.
the NBA doesn't crown a "national champion" or a "world champion", but
it is still the most important championship on basketball because it
is acknowledged as the league with the best players.
various pro football leagues had been set up in the US which would
partly compete with the NFL (XFL,CFL), but because they didn't succeed
doesn't mean it's not possible - i don't see what "gross malfeasance"
has to do with anything.
Michael Press
<f6a2bbcb-4190-464b...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Amit Ghosh <amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
It is about USAC deciding where Williams can race.
You say if people do not like it, then can form
their own governing body. They cannot form a
governing body that awards certain titles. So
your prescription does not cure the illness.
--
Michael Press
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbass,
Start your own governing body with your own rules
and award your own championships. (FIAC already
does this, but I can't see you and Les Earnest working
well together in the long run.) Splinter governing bodies
work so well in boxing, why not try them in cycling?
Fredmaster Ben
Beloved Fred No. 1
> Start your own governing body with your own rules
> and award your own championships. (FIAC already
> does this, but I can't see you and Les Earnest working
> well together in the long run.) Splinter governing bodies
> work so well in boxing, why not try them in cycling?
Just think how many more FM jerseys we could win.
--D-y
wrote:
> Just to clarify, I did not say that taking your sport seriously is
> a crime against humanity. What I said was... "There is nothing
> wrong with taking your sport seriously. There is everything wrong
> with expecting other people to take your sport seriously. Our sport
> is ass deep with people that think their hobby is much more
> important than a hobby."
Some people have hobbies. Some people have avocations. Maybe the
hobbyists are uncomfortable around those who have a real love for
their activities?
> rbr is a hobby to me. I don't expect anyone to take it that
> seriously.
What does "that" mean? <g>.
>
> As a side note, Eric Heiden took his skating very seriously. But
> we both know Fatty Masters that take cycling more seriously than
> he did and he did, in fact, ride the Tour.
Might have been his second sport but he didn't hang around in back,
riding for the post-race massage after getting the team photos taken.
Any activity you engage in, the cutthroats are gonna be out there.
"Protect yourself at all times".
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
> It is about USAC deciding where Williams can race.
dumbass,
they can only decide if william can race within USAC (and affiliated
bodies like the UCI).
> You say if people do not like it, then can form
> their own governing body. They cannot form a
> governing body that awards certain titles. So
> your prescription does not cure the illness.
duh, and only the NFL can award the superbowl, it doesn't stop other
federations frm having their own championships.
Frederick the Great
<6fded19e-1601-4961...@y32g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
Another body cannot award certain titles.
"USA National Champion" for instance.
USA Cycling owns the franchise to
Part 4. Conduct National Championships and
select teams to represent the United States of
America in international and Olympic
competition.
Part 5. Represent the sport of bicycle racing in
the United States of America to other national,
international, and Olympic sports organizations.
As you said USAC can bar members of USAC from
taking part in races sponsored by other cycling
governing bodies. They do exercise that power.
--
Old Fritz
Michael Press
<980573b6-1924-4ad0...@p7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Amit Ghosh <amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 13, 10:51 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > It is about USAC deciding where Williams can race.
>
> dumbass,
>
> they can only decide if william can race within USAC (and affiliated
> bodies like the UCI).
They can revoke his membership if he registers
in races run by other governing bodies.
> > You say if people do not like it, then can form
> > their own governing body. They cannot form a
> > governing body that awards certain titles. So
> > your prescription does not cure the illness.
>
> duh, and only the NFL can award the superbowl, it doesn't stop other
> federations frm having their own championships.
USAC is the big show. No other governing body
can match them. Of course somebody with time
and money on their hands can form a bicycle
racing organization. They cannot do all of what USAC does.
They cannot compete for the best racers.
--
Michael Press