so that is that
S Perryman
or courage in his rivals. I doubt we are going to see a Paris 1989
TT, so that is that.
Time will tell as to whether the others will ever have a better
chance to depose Contador. I suspect that several of them will never
again be less than 3 mins him on GC with 4 days to go.
So, grand tour win #5 / TdF win #3 almost in the bag.
Wonder if he has been sufficiently underwhelmed by the TdF to have
a go at the Vuelta.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
Art Harris
> Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
> or courage in his rivals. I doubt we are going to see a Paris 1989
> TT, so that is that.
>
Maybe Contador will drop his chain in the TT. That would be priceless!
RicodJour
The Magic 8-Ball says, "That is a distinct possibility."
R
S Perryman
AFAIK, he is on record as saying he would consider the Vuelta if
his form was ok. While it is not much akin to 2008 and 2009, the
TdF does not appear to have knocked the stuffing out of him.
So a nice rest and roll on September methinks.
I would be quite happy for Contador to win 10+ grand tours to put
him in the realms of Merckx and Hinault. If he does two in a year
as they both did (more than once) , chapeau.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
ronaldo_jeremiah
> Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
Dumbass -
Don't complicate it. Schleck just didn't have the wattage to do what
needed to be done.
-rj
S Perryman
> On Jul 22, 10:54 am, S Perryman <a...@a.net> wrote:
>>Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
> Don't complicate it.
Why not ?? Because you cannot understand things ??
> Schleck just didn't have the wattage to do what needed to be done.
The last time I looked, there was more than two teams in the race.
And some of those riders from other teams have been within 3 mins of
the race lead for several days.
I won't complicate things for you, any more than this ...
Regards,
Steven Perryman
Uncle Dave
He also has to win a shed load of classics in order to be even
mentioned in the same sentence as those two. He's a tour rider, pure
and simple. At least Lance had the decency to win a few proper races
before he had his nut chopped off and became a July promenader.
Contador is another Indurain - a one trick pony, boring boring
boring.
UD
Frederick the Great
wrote:
> Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
> or courage in his rivals.
I saw his rivals ridden off his wheel except Schleck.
What did you expect his rivals to do after they were
beaten? AS stayed with AC the whole way. AS tried to
ride AC off his wheel. AC tried to ride AS off his wheel.
When LANCE dominated the TdF it was "boring." When AC
and AS slug it out but neither can ride the other off
his wheel it is "boring." You guys are harder to please
than a trailer park queen.
--
Old Fritz
Uncle Dave
> In article <i29pk1$f2...@speranza.aioe.org>, S Perryman <a...@a.net>
You only have to look at the eejits the Tour attracts on mountain
stages now to know that the days when it had any celebral appeal are
long past. It remains, alas, (and despite all the hype thatowuld tell
you otherwise) entirely predictable and has been for most of the last
twenty years. It's like basketball, high on razamatazz, low on
substance. It didn't used to be, but it is now. I watch it for the
scenery. Ther are some wonderful places en route. Jeez, there
haven't even been any half-decent drug scandals this year to alleviate
the boredom...
UD
ronaldo_jeremiah
> ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:
> > On Jul 22, 10:54 am, S Perryman <a...@a.net> wrote:
> >>Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
> > Don't complicate it.
>
> Why not ?? Because you cannot understand things ??
Dumbass -
Don't be a putz. I understand this thing just fine. When two skinny
dude line up at the bottom of a hill, the one with more power gets to
the top first. "Vision" doesn't mean shit, unless you think vision =
+50W.
>
> The last time I looked, there was more than two teams in the race.
> And some of those riders from other teams have been within 3 mins of
> the race lead for several days.
It's been a two-rider race for over a week. As impressive as
Menchov's move up the GC has been, he's not going to get several
minutes out of the two best stage racers in the world in a single flat
time trial, and hasn't arrived at the final summit with those guys
even once.
>
> I won't complicate things for you, any more than this ...
What's with all the multiple punctuation marks? Are you channeling
Fat Stevie?
-rj
NoDannyNo
> You only have to look at the eejits the Tour attracts on mountain
My fave today: The guy (or gal?) in the full yellow body suit with
black thong and "Armstrong 8" on his back.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:i29pk1$f2f$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Give Contador some credit for borrowing a page from Postal/Discovery/Lance.
He didn't waste any extra energy, rode intelligently throughout (no major
mistakes like last year), and, to the surprise of many (including myself),
had a team that backed him up. The only reason we thought Schleck had a
chance was, ironically, because Contador was doing all the right things
needed to win. We thought he was off his game when he didn't put on a show
in the Alps. Instead, he was riding smartly, really smartly. Mentally, he
was inside Andy's head.
Am I the only one seeing parallels to Lance and Jan here? At least regards
the mind games?
And then there's the time trial thing. Andy is indisputably a major talent,
but until he delivers his A game for a time trial, can anyone really believe
he's in it to win it? Including Andy himself?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
GoneBeforeMyTime
It's become a trashy spectacle. In the old days the fans weren't dressed
like Drag Queens or should I say undressed. It's pretty appalling the media
not only cover idiots running along side naked, but comment on it as well
like this is something to be part and parcel of the tour. I remember when
Indurain and Chiappucci used to climb through the masses reminding me of
something akin to the Red Sea parting every step of the way. Both the
spectacle of bike racing and the fans seemed to be pretty much in sink back
then without all the circus side show you see now. The Devil used to be the
acceptable rouge element, but he's been overshadowed now by every weirdo
under the sun who flock to the tour every year. The tour is turning into
Mardi Gras. Next, they will start throwing beads on the riders.
NoDannyNo
>Next, they will start throwing beads on the riders.
Why not? They already tap them on the ass as they pass, run along
side them screaming, flutter flags in their faces, etc,, etc. It's
actually pretty amazing that there aren't more incidents of the racers
being impeded (accidentally or otherwise).
ronaldo_jeremiah
Overshadowed by the rouge element and out of sink - what is the world
coming to?
-rj
GoneBeforeMyTime
I'm waiting for some guy to swing from a tree like Tarzan through the riders
and land on the Cameraman!
I noticed some people claim boredom, no matter if it's attack and defend, or
the old style Lance Trance. Perhaps we are too well entertained and wired in
compared to moderation from old days, or perhaps it's just the fatty masters
are bored. I'm wondering if the younger crowd are as fascinated as we were
many years ago, of if they too are bored now. Before the Internet, we combed
the TV Guide and taped whatever morsels we could get our hands on. We only
dreamed of seeing other classics in Europe, which are standard fare today on
cable or Dish. We bought whatever tapes we could get our hands on, which
weren't really many like a Sunday in Hell. Now we are flooded with all the
classics on TV and all you can eat on the internet. You got Youtube and
Twitter for instant gratification. We are overindulged.
A. Dumas
> At least Lance had the decency to win a few proper races
> before he had his nut chopped off and became a July promenader.
> Contador is another Indurain - a one trick pony, boring boring
> boring.
Armstrong won Worlds, Clásica San Sebastián and Flèche Wallonne with 2
nuts. Worlds is great but on the whole: meh.
Contador does try, he's not a July promenader. But yes, so far his wins
have come from stage races. The 2010 programme:
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=387&year=2010&all=1¤t=0
Algarve (win)
Paris-Nice (win)
Critérium International (15)
Castilla y Leon (win)
Flèche Wallonne (3)
Liège-Bastogne-Liège (9)
Dauphiné (2)
Tour (win?)
S Perryman
> On Jul 22, 6:20 pm, S Perryman <a...@a.net> wrote:
>>I would be quite happy for Contador to win 10+ grand tours to put
>>him in the realms of Merckx and Hinault. If he does two in a year
>>as they both did (more than once) , chapeau.
> He also has to win a shed load of classics in order to be even
> mentioned in the same sentence as those two. He's a tour rider, pure
> and simple.
His rides in Fleche Wallonne and LBL this year tell me that these
races will probably be in his palmares before too long.
The "pave" races : no.
Milan San Remo : possible if he tries to go on the Poggio like
a mountain TT.
Giro di Lombardia : possible, but so late in the season with the
ever increasing 'won the TdF' wrap-up to the season, unlikely he'd
even bother.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
S Perryman
> On Jul 22, 12:53 pm, S Perryman <a...@a.net> wrote:
>
>>ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:
>>
>>>On Jul 22, 10:54 am, S Perryman <a...@a.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Contador effectively handed the TdF by a complete lack of vision
>>>
>>>Don't complicate it.
>>
>>Why not ?? Because you cannot understand things ??
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Don't be a putz. I understand this thing just fine. When two skinny
> the top first. "Vision" doesn't mean shit, unless you think vision =
> +50W.
And you obviously don't understand any "thing just fine" .
If ones get to the bottom of a hill with time in hand, the one with more
power is guaranteed to get to the top first ??
If the one with more power has been forced to pursue without the shelter of
the peloton or team mates, will he be the one with "more power" at the
bottom ??
The last time I looked, TdF stages don't all begin with the riders
"lined up at the bottom of a hill" .
>>The last time I looked, there was more than two teams in the race.
>>And some of those riders from other teams have been within 3 mins of
>>the race lead for several days.
> It's been a two-rider race for over a week. As impressive as
> Menchov's move up the GC has been, he's not going to get several
> minutes out of the two best stage racers in the world in a single flat
> time trial, and hasn't arrived at the final summit with those guys
> even once.
And yet according to the GC, the top 8 riders on GC have been within
5 minutes of eachother for several days now. I doubt there has been a
TdF like that for a long time. Any of these riders, and their teams, have
had an opportunities to try something, anything other than just be bit
part players in the Contador and Schleck love-in.
>>I won't complicate things for you, any more than this ...
> What's with all the multiple punctuation marks? Are you channeling
> Fat Stevie?
Does punctuation complicate things for you ??
If so, say so, and I'll try not to use too many in future.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
Davey Crockett
>
| Does punctuation complicate things for you ??
| If so, say so, and I'll try not to use too many in future.
>
>
You might try trimming out the non pertinent prior posts too ;)
--
Stay out of Arizona M'Bongo
http://69.165.217.79:6080/rbr/obamadont.jpg
S Perryman
> S Perryman a écrit profondement:
Don't let that boy see the "acute" (or is it "grave" ) on that e. :-)
> You might try trimming out the non pertinent prior posts too ;)
Yeah, send an empty reply to him.
Problem is, nearly all Usenet posting tools refuse to send empty postings.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
Betty
> Don't be a putz. I understand this thing just fine. When two skinny
> dude line up at the bottom of a hill, the one with more power gets to
> the top first. "Vision" doesn't mean shit, unless you think vision =
> +50W.
Or Vision = Supermotivation + panache = 50W.
A. Dumas
> Milan San Remo : possible if he tries to go on the Poggio like
> a mountain TT.
Betty
> And then there's the time trial thing. Andy is indisputably a major
> talent, but until he delivers his A game for a time trial, can anyone
> really believe he's in it to win it? Including Andy himself?
Physically he should be capable; he's not a super lightweight like
Pantani and he must have a high LT. But if Riis can't make him into a
TTrialer I doubt if anyone will, unless it comes with age and he does
have time on his side.
Betty
>> It's become a trashy spectacle. In the old days the fans weren't dressed
>> like Drag Queens or should I say undressed. It's pretty appalling the media
>> not only cover idiots running along side naked, but comment on it as well
>> like this is something to be part and parcel of the tour. I remember when
>> Indurain and Chiappucci used to climb through the masses reminding me of
>> something akin to the Red Sea parting every step of the way. Both the
>> spectacle of bike racing and the fans seemed to be pretty much in sink back
>> then without all the circus side show you see now. The Devil used to be the
>> acceptable rouge element, but he's been overshadowed now by every weirdo
>> under the sun who flock to the tour every year. The tour is turning into
>> Mardi Gras. Next, they will start throwing beads on the riders.
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:
> Overshadowed by the rouge element and out of sink - what is the world
> coming to?
The sinkronicity of going rouge.
S Perryman
> ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:
Vision =
self/team belief + course possibilities + tactical nous + courage > 50W ??
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Dumbasses,
RJ is right and you and Uncle Dave are living in dreamland.
Sure, it would be nice to see a rider like Menchov, who
has nothing to lose but a very good shot at 3rd place (which
is not nothing) go on an attack with 2 or 3 cols to go,
and put the fear into both Contador and Schleck.
Like say Hinault in 1986, or Pantani on the stage to
the Joux-Plane in 2000 (the stage where Armstrong
almost bonked, IIRC, although he saved it by only
losing a little time to Ullrich). Or like Sastre tried
yesterday.
On the other hand, none of those attacks above actually
won the Tour and some of them didn't even win the stage,
and then there is whatever Sastre did yesterday.
The problem, and the reason you're living in dreamland,
is that a long solo attack on GC contenders might have
worked in the 1960s or 70s when the talent pool was smaller
and team leaders had fewer high-quality support riders who
can chase over two cols and the valleys in between. Now
they can do that and get the leader to the bottom of the
last climb, at which point he is so much fresher than the
solo breakaway that the solo has all he can do to win the
stage, let alone take enough time to jump to first on GC.
There have been mountain stages won by riders from a
long break (even Boogerd won one that way) but it's
always someone who wasn't a GC threat.
So if you want to know why things aren't as fun and exciting
as when you were young, don't blame Schleck, Contador,
Menchov, Sanchez. Blame the gregarios who have been
on the front pulling for Astana or Saxo.
It's like the Stephen Jay Gould explanation of why there
aren't standouts like .400 hitters in American baseball
anymore. Not because the stars are worse, but because
the overall talent pool is better, so the stars stand out less.
Thank you for your attention in this matter,
Fredmaster Ben
S Perryman
> S Perryman wrote:
> Ha ha! http://www.salite.ch/I/poggio1.gif
1995.
Jalabert and Fondriest riding everyone off their wheels.
Or perhaps you are saying that everyone on that climb in 1995
are so much weaker than the peloton of today. With the latter quite
capable of staying with any prolonged attack by Contador over the climb.
Or perhaps (easier/lazier thinking) that Jalabert and Fondriest were at the
chemists the day before ??
Regards,
Steven Perryman
Uncle Dave
Maybe so, but when the specialists moved in the romance moved out.
There are now never more than 2 or 3 realistic contenders for victory
and everyone knows who they are months beforehand, too often only one
realistic contender. Nobody can ask anymore whether, for example,
whether this or that tider overextended himself in the spring classics
and whether that will have an effect because they don't ride them or,
when they do, they treat it as training. I don't see the Tour as part
of pro cycling now, it's something separate that has a life of its own
- like the Superbowl. The difference is that the players who make it
to the Superbowl did the hard work in the regular season but these
guys didn't. It's a charade. Somebody should have done the Tour a
favour and shot Indurain the moment he moved out of Delgado's shadow.
And as for the asshole who deigned not to keep Armstrong's cancer
results under wraps jsut alittle while longer, well there no words
sufficient to describe the calamity (s)he set forth upon the Tour.
UD
Fredmaster of Brainerd
>
> Maybe so, but when the specialists moved in the romance moved out.
> There are now never more than 2 or 3 realistic contenders for victory
> and everyone knows who they are months beforehand, too often only one
> realistic contender. Nobody can ask anymore whether, for example,
> whether this or that tider overextended himself in the spring classics
> and whether that will have an effect because they don't ride them or,
> when they do, they treat it as training. I don't see the Tour as part
> of pro cycling now, it's something separate that has a life of its own
> - like the Superbowl. The difference is that the players who make it
> to the Superbowl did the hard work in the regular season but these
> guys didn't. It's a charade. Somebody should have done the Tour a
> favour and shot Indurain the moment he moved out of Delgado's shadow.
> And as for the asshole who deigned not to keep Armstrong's cancer
> results under wraps jsut alittle while longer, well there no words
> sufficient to describe the calamity (s)he set forth upon the Tour.
>
> UD
Jacques Anquetil won it four years in a row from
1961-1964, Hinault won 1978-79-81-82, were you
already bitching about predictability then?
It was so much better back in Robic's day!
Fredmaster Ben
Fred Flintstein
You are aware that they moved the finish line further away
from the climb, right?
Fred Flintstein
NoDannyNo
> It was so much better back in Robic's day!
Including 2010, there have been 64 Tours since Robic's win in the
first post-WWII TdF. Assuming that AC holds on to win the current
edition: Just 11 racers will have won 42 of those 64 Tours (~66% or
nearly 2/3rds). That's pretty "predictable" as sporting events go.
RicodJour
>
> Including 2010, there have been 64 Tours since Robic's win in the
> first post-WWII TdF. Assuming that AC holds on to win the current
> edition: Just 11 racers will have won 42 of those 64 Tours (~66% or
> nearly 2/3rds). That's pretty "predictable" as sporting events go.
And not at all unusual.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/postseason/mlb_ws.jsp?feature=club_champs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions#Super_Bowl_appearances_by_team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup#Titles_by_team
R
Uncle Dave
No, because Hinault was a true champion and rode other events to win.
I think you're missing my point somewhat. The predictability comes
form the lack of competition. Hinault was certainly dominant, but
there were always worthwhile challengers because everyone started with
the same chance. That is no longer the case, as a handful of
protected riders fight it out for the podium. Who would you have
picked for the podium this year? And who's on it at the moment? Same
guys? Unfortunately, I don't see any way back from this sad state of
affairs, and we are doomed to never know whether riders like Contador
are great or not, just that they could win tours.
UD
Fred Flintstein
> Unfortunately, I don't see any way back from this sad state of
> affairs, and we are doomed to never know whether riders like Contador
> are great or not, just that they could win tours.
The guys wins the last 5 grand tours that he has entered and
you don't know if he is a great rider?
How about guys like Museeuw and Boonen? Did they suck because
they never won the Tour?
Look, if you've got to whine about something this silly then
whine because a win is better for the riders than 20 2nd
place finishes. Game that out and you'll see why each and
every rider seeks to maximize the number of wins by
specializing.
Fred Flintstein
Mark J.
I don't get your point. The year Sastre won, that was a real
free-for-all competition IIRC. I suppose you could say that "everyone
started with the same chance" that year - but RBR moans about how
pathetic the field was. Is your point that in most years, a few riders
are "too strong" for your taste? Maybe we should weight-handicap 'em
like in horse racing.
If you want unpredictability, we could hire shepherds to run a flock of
sheep through the peloton on a daily basis. That, or figure-8 circuits
at the end of every flat stage.
Mark J.
GoneBeforeMyTime
>
> Maybe so, but when the specialists moved in the romance moved out.
Yeah, that's a fair statement. That belonged to a different era.
Uncle Dave
wrote:
> On 7/23/2010 2:55 PM, Uncle Dave wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, I don't see any way back from this sad state of
> > affairs, and we are doomed to never know whether riders like Contador
> > are great or not, just that they could win tours.
>
> The guys wins the last 5 grand tours that he has entered and
> you don't know if he is a great rider?
He's a great Tour rider, I'd agree with that. You'd have to say
Armstrong was a great rider because he proved he could do both one day
and tours, albeit not in the same "era" and pre-cancer Lance never
realised his potential in the classics. I just think it's a shame
that the romance has gone from tours and that they have become almost
a separate sport. I don't think the move to specialists has improved
the Tour. It's like knowing only 2 or 3 teams have any chance of
getting to the Superbowl before the season starts - it kind of takes
the sting out of the competition. There have always been favourites,
sure, but the Tour is far less competitive in this age of specialists
than ever before. Even when Merckx was dominating, there were always
half a dozen riders who were realitic challengers for the win. That
simply isn't the case now so all you can say is that Contador is a
great Tour rider and that's not saying a much because he doesn't have
much by way of competition. Every single classic is harder to win
than the Tour. Indeed, most races this year, never mind the top
ones. It might take you longer to win one, but it's been Contador or
Schleck from day one.
UD
Davey Crockett
The Poggio di SanRemo is more like a wearisome grind and wouldnt be a
major obstacle if it didn't come after 290 km of racing.
Kelly I believe went up in 53x18 if I remember when he caught Argentin
that time with 800 meters to go
Besides, it's an Italian race and Davey likes to see an Italian winner
So let's let him have Lombardia though, OK?
--
http://173.192.209.77/videos43ll/22891b565112efbab4ab90a44951080a_tenors.flv.mp4
(Courtesy RaiUno)