Rumors of Injunction Being Sought Against WSJ
B. Lafferty
http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-threatens-overshadow-tour-de-france-grand
K. Fred Gauss
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
> http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-threatens-overshadow-tour-de-france-grand
>
You're right, the article will be published.
The articles about the article speak of further "allegations". I'm
having trouble coming up with any doping allegations against LA that
haven't been alleged several time before. For this to be earth
shattering, Landis has to have told WSJ that he's turned physical
evidence over to the feds.
K. Fred Gauss
Another possibility: the WSJ has others who corroborate the Landis story.
Keith
wrote:
That's probably it, the question is whether these other sources are
dopers or not.
Keith
wrote:
>Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
>http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-threatens-overshadow-tour-de-france-grand
So what are these rumours "should some of the rumours circulating be
true"...let's head out to Twitter !
B. Lafferty
Or that the other cyclists who the NY Times said had spoken with
Novitsky turned over to the WSJ.
B. Lafferty
I think that is very likely the situation.
B. Lafferty
Well, they probably are/were dopers. It will be interesting to see if
any photos or other documentary evidence emerge.
B. Lafferty
I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before anyone
gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
Keith
wrote:
>On 7/2/2010 7:24 PM, Keith wrote:
>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:09:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
>>> http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-threatens-overshadow-tour-de-france-grand
>>
>> So what are these rumours "should some of the rumours circulating be
>> true"...let's head out to Twitter !
>
>I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before anyone
>gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
Twitter just pointed me to
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704911704575326753200584006.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
B. Lafferty
Not a lot that's new. The feds contacting Trek about the alleged bikes
for doping program is interesting. Those are the kinds of things that
can be followed in numerous directions.
Lots of people not returning calls and emails.
B. Lafferty
I can see where there will be some questions for Kristen. My feeling
after re-reading the piece is that there is a sufficient level of detail
that lends credibility to his accusations and which will open many paths
for investigators to follow. Phone and text message records are going to
be one good source.
K. Fred Gauss
> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:35:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/2/2010 7:24 PM, Keith wrote:
>>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:09:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
>>>> http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-threatens-overshadow-tour-de-france-grand
>>> So what are these rumours "should some of the rumours circulating be
>>> true"...let's head out to Twitter !
>> I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before anyone
>> gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
>
> Twitter just pointed me to
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704911704575326753200584006.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
>
"Three other former U.S. Postal riders told the Journal in interviews
that there was doping on the team during the time Mr. Armstrong was its
lead rider, and one of them admitted that he himself had doped."
I'm guessing:
Vaughters
Andreu
Creed
The "bikes for dope" deal is new to me, but most of this is as expected.
The biggest deal is that it's more damning than anything previously
published in a mass market American rag.
B. Lafferty
at Postal.
K. Fred Gauss
Agreed. The article says that only one admitted doping. If I'm right,
then 2/3 of them told the truth.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:vsvs26dkvbhsp935c...@4ax.com...
Thanks for the link. Surprised that anyone would think the article would
warrant an injunction against it, with one exception- the picture of Floyd
and Lance with the "Blood Brothers" caption. Had it been "Blood Brothers?"
it wouldn't be troublesome, but there's nothing new in the article that I
could find, aside from claims that three had spoken with investigators
(which surely can't be a surprise to anyone?).
The "bikes for dope" thing is really interesting. For irony. Why? Because it
was Greg LeMond's bikes that caused us grief. What you read about in the
LeMond/Trek lawsuit was true; Greg's manager back-doored a lot of bikes that
went to "friends" and now we see claims of the same thing from Lance.
Also interesting, and not exactly ringing the bell of truth, are Landis's
claims of being denied top equipment. I don't get this one at all. I've been
to 9 TdFs and have seen the team bikes up close in most of them, including
Floyd's. Everyone's got the same stuff. The only exception was in, what,
2003 I think?, when Lance insisted on riding his 5900 instead of the newer
Madone for some of the climbing stages. Lance is semi-superstitious and
while he claims it's not about the bike, at the same time if he's got a bike
that did well for him on a given stage, he wants to have that same bike for
similar stages, and thus the early "aero" version of the Madone, designed
specifically with Lance in mind, was used by the rest of the team 100% of
the time but maybe half the time by Lance. Now perhaps Landis is picking up
on Lance's pickiness about things and building a non-existant story around
it?.
The Trek attorney referenced, Bob Burns, is an extraordinary guy that I
would trust to be brutally honest. Whatever claims he makes regarding those
loose bikes, I'd believe. It was likely Mr. Burns who advised John Burke,
President of Trek, to release *everything* including anything that might
make Trek look bad, when Greg sued Trek. He's not the type of hide things;
if there are lumps to be taken, get them out of the way early (which removes
the sting from the other sides planned attack).
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
--D-y
> Well, they probably are/were dopers.
That's because doping is systematic, rooted in the system of all
"sport", from top to bottom (scapegoat athletes).
> It will be interesting to see if
> any photos or other documentary evidence emerge.
Yes. Interesting:
<http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/10/photos/clinger-was-featured-in-
a-may-2009-article-in-velonews_99133>
Gerlach's wide range of doping expertise would also make interesting
testimony, I agree.
Get those two on the witness stand!
(Just poking, Brian, I know they're just turncoat stoolies for the
Feds, so far at least)
--D-y
B. Lafferty
60 bikes at $10K+ each on ebay or wherever, is $600,000 for doping.
There's a lot to interest the feds in that and probably many good leads
to follow.
Betty
>> The "bikes for dope" thing is really interesting. For irony. Why?
>> Because it was Greg LeMond's bikes that caused us grief. What you read
>> about in the LeMond/Trek lawsuit was true; Greg's manager back-doored a
>> lot of bikes that went to "friends" and now we see claims of the same
>> thing from Lance.
B. Lafferty wrote:
> 60 bikes at $10K+ each on ebay or wherever, is $600,000 for doping.
> There's a lot to interest the feds in that and probably many good leads
> to follow.
Did government money pay for the bikes or was it a separate sponsorship
from Trek ?
B. Lafferty
Part of the sponsorship deal in all probability. Assuming that
Armstrong, Johan and others in Tailwind ownership/management knew of the
sale, it would be part of the overall scheme to commit fraud on the USPS
and SCA Promotions.
Criminal subpoenas and search warrants can produce quite a lot of
potentially interesting evidence relating to the ads and transactions on
eBay and any other internet sites that may have been used to sell the
bikes. That Trek management was aware the bikes were showing up on eBay
is significant as it lends credibility to Landis' revelations.
So who placed the ads on eBay and who got the money? Those are very
easy to ascertain. And then those people are interviewed by the feds.
Stay tuned.
B. Lafferty
Mike, there's a big difference between back-dooring bikes to friends (at
full price?) and selling 60 bikes a year on eBay and elsewhere to fund a
doping program.
We're talking apples and pomegranates here.
K. Fred Gauss
> So who placed the ads on eBay and who got the money? Those are very
> easy to ascertain.
Not necessarily. Failing a business reason to maintain the records, ebay
likely purges old records. Saves hardware costs, leads to better system
performance. A quick glance at MY ebay account shows that detailed
information isn't available for items I bought or sold more than 90 days
ago.
K. Fred Gauss
> Part of the sponsorship deal in all probability. Assuming that
> Armstrong, Johan and others in Tailwind ownership/management knew of the
> sale, it would be part of the overall scheme to commit fraud on the USPS
> and SCA Promotions.
Given the nature of the "bikes for dope" program, Weisel has plausible
deniability, absent any further information. If this is how the dope was
bought, he could be off the hook.
I'll bet Landis at least knows who knows about "bikes for dope".
B. Lafferty
I'll wager they have transaction records going back at least seven
years. That you can't get your transaction records going back 90 days
says nothing about eBay's data retention policies.
B. Lafferty
subpoena/search warrant and/or served with a notice to preserve evidence.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:U7CdnfKhZri_3LLR...@giganews.com...
Difference in scale? Greg or his manager were supplementally funding
"themselves" while US Postal was funding a team. Where the $$$ went is
relevant. That it happened is hardly new or all that noteworthy.
Traditionally, team equipment is sold off via the mechanic, and regarded as
part of his income. Even if the mechanic isn't involved, I'd think it
difficult for this sort of thing to get past him without his knowledge.
K. Fred Gauss
> I'll wager they have transaction records going back at least seven
> years.
If there's a business reason to maintain them, they do. If there's not,
they don't. It's that simple.
> That you can't get your transaction records going back 90 days
> says nothing about eBay's data retention policies.
It says that access to that information is limited via some mechanism.
That's not everything, but it's not nothing. It certainly beats pure
speculation.
You'd make a lousy investigator. Too much wishful thinking, not enough
fact gathering.
Amit Ghosh
> Part of the sponsorship deal in all probability. Assuming that
> Armstrong, Johan and others in Tailwind ownership/management knew of the
> sale, it would be part of the overall scheme to commit fraud on the USPS
> and SCA Promotions.
>
> Criminal subpoenas and search warrants can produce quite a lot of
> potentially interesting evidence relating to the ads and transactions on
> eBay and any other internet sites that may have been used to sell the
> bikes. That Trek management was aware the bikes were showing up on eBay
> is significant as it lends credibility to Landis' revelations.
>
> So who placed the ads on eBay and who got the money? Those are very
> easy to ascertain. And then those people are interviewed by the feds.
> Stay tuned.
dumbass,
selling bikes on ebay is not inherently illegal, at most it might be a
violation of the sponsorship agreement.
it might be considered money laundering and there might be tax evasion
but it would still be hard to prove what the proceeds were used for.
K. Fred Gauss
> Traditionally, team equipment is sold off via the mechanic, and regarded
> as part of his income. Even if the mechanic isn't involved, I'd think it
> difficult for this sort of thing to get past him without his knowledge.
Assuming the bikes reached a mechanic, yes.
B. Lafferty
bicycles to supplement their income? If so, wouldn't we all love one of
those jobs? ;-)
B. Lafferty
Please! None of us at this point know what Weisel has or does not have
other than a potentially huge problem.
B. Lafferty
> B. Lafferty wrote:
>
>> I'll wager they have transaction records going back at least seven years.
>
> If there's a business reason to maintain them, they do. If there's not,
> they don't. It's that simple.
>
>> That you can't get your transaction records going back 90 days says
>> nothing about eBay's data retention policies.
>
> It says that access to that information is limited via some mechanism.
> That's not everything, but it's not nothing. It certainly beats pure
> speculation.
It says it's limited to you. Having just been involved in federal
litigation with a criminal crossover, I can tell you that retention
policies for users of services are generally quite different from the
overall retention policy of the service provider.
Depending on the criminal statute the investigation is being conducted
under, the AUSA on the case will have to either issue a criminal
subpoena or a search warrant for the services records. In the case of
eBay, it's highly unlikely that they work under a 90 day or even one
year retention policy given that they provide a service for people (both
individuals and businesses) with tax reporting requirements
>
> You'd make a lousy investigator. Too much wishful thinking, not enough
> fact gathering.
It seems to me that you're engaging in far more wishful thinking at this
point than I am. Neither of us are Federal investigators. The nice
part of that is we get to sit back and watch the show.
I'm wondering at what point all the increasingly detailed negative
publicity is going to derail the Lance myth machine. His constant
bad-mouthing of the accuser denials are starting to sound pretty phony
to many people with no real interest in professional cycling. At least
that's what I'm hearing at business meetings and social gatherings I've
been attending. So where's the tipping point?
B. Lafferty
Mike Jacoubowsky
Who says you don't get it?
Yes, you want that job. They can do quite well. Not 60 bikes well, of
course, but the heirarchy is such that there's no way something like that is
going to happen without the team mechanic knowing about it. It's the sort of
thing you wouldn't want him to discover on his own, because basically you'd
be intruding on his turf without permission. Plus he's the guy who knows how
best to sell the merchandise and get the best price for it. Please
understand this is long-standing tradition that has nothing to do with US
Postal specifically. It's the way they *all* operate. So yes, the scale is
immense, but it *is* a matter of scale that's involved here, not something
new. I'm sure people are connecting the dots; what I know about how this
works isn't secret.
B. Lafferty
What's the name of Lemond's old mechanic who worked for Postal? He
supposedly has some doping testimony to provide.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:4c2f...@news.x-privat.org...
How are we going to know what Landis actually *knows* vs makes up on the
fly? The stuff he said about his own bike vs Lance's fits into the "makes up
on the fly" category. And if he's making that up, you gotta wonder why?
Because he's just looking for things to feed people, perhaps adding (severe)
embellishment to something pretty minor. Maybe I shouldn't base too much on
just one comment, but he's so full of it when he says that he was riding
inferior equipment to Lance. I've been there, I've seen the bikes. I know
the guy that anybody on the team could have called and said they needed a
new bike and they'd get one. Fast. Never mind that they all have spares.
The guy is a (continuing) professional liar. That doesn't mean that
everything he says is a lie. But geez, I'm not the most-connected person in
the world, and yet I'm in a position to know he's making some stuff up. What
else fits into that category?
K. Fred Gauss
> It says it's limited to you. Having just been involved in federal
> litigation with a criminal crossover, I can tell you that retention
> policies for users of services are generally quite different from the
> overall retention policy of the service provider.
This is trickier than you're aware of. Companies have an interest in
retaining as little information as possible. Most have record retention
policies that REQUIRE information to be destroyed after some specific
time. There are both legal and technical reasons for that.
>
> Depending on the criminal statute the investigation is being conducted
> under, the AUSA on the case will have to either issue a criminal
> subpoena or a search warrant for the services records. In the case of
> eBay, it's highly unlikely that they work under a 90 day or even one
> year retention policy given that they provide a service for people (both
> individuals and businesses) with tax reporting requirements
>
Right, that's a solid business requirement. Meeting tax reporting
requirements does not mean that ebay retains all information about every
transaction. It means that they have a database and software that meets
tax reporting requirements. If I sold $400 worth of stuff on ebay in
2004, they have a database that knows it. That database doesn't store
the information that the $400 came from the sale of a Schwinn Supersport
with Ultegra parts in Astana colors. That information is not relevant to
tax reporting. So it's not there.
Ebay has business requirements. Those requirements dictate what gets
saved, for how long, and in what format. Ebay doesn't save everything
forever.
If they find that Weisel sold $600000 worth of stuff on ebay in 2004,
that'd be an interesting piece of evidence. Not necessarily a smoking gun.
Do we know anything was actually sold on ebay?
> I'm wondering at what point all the increasingly detailed negative
> publicity is going to derail the Lance myth machine. His constant
> bad-mouthing of the accuser denials are starting to sound pretty phony
> to many people with no real interest in professional cycling. At least
> that's what I'm hearing at business meetings and social gatherings I've
> been attending. So where's the tipping point?
I'm guessing we're getting closer, but not especially close. There are
still Lance defenders in RBR, and that should be the first place to get
the idea. But people generally don't care about doping as much as other
things. Barry Bonds continued to play, and Americans care about baseball
a LOT more than they care about cycling. If "tipping point" means
"disgraced", it depends on Lance's actions more than anything else.
Contrast Barry Bond's actions with Floyd Landis'. Barry kept his mouth
shut through the whole thing. There was no "Barry is innocent" fund.
There was nothing even vaguely similar to the Lemond phone call. In the
public's eyes, Bonds ends up looking a lot less stupid than Landis, and
looking stupid is the biggest public sin.
DA74
> "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>
> news:YY2dnSGDg_8KwbLR...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7/3/2010 11:15 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >> "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>news:U7CdnfKhZri_3LLR...@giganews.com...
> >>> On 7/3/2010 12:25 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>>> "Keith" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:vsvs26dkvbhsp935c...@4ax.com...
> >>>>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:35:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> On 7/2/2010 7:24 PM, Keith wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:09:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
>
> >>>>>>> So what are these rumours "should some of the rumours circulating be
> >>>>>>> true"...let's head out to Twitter !
>
> >>>>>> I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before anyone
> >>>>>> gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
>
> >>>>> Twitter just pointed me to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Big Jabowsky,
You are so fucking full of shit it is comical. That you can sit there
and say you know how "they *all* operate" is beyond ridiculous. That
mechanics sell the bikes and keep the proceeds as income is not a
"long standing tradition" and the only "turf" the mechanic owns is the
maintenance of the bikes which are owned by the team. Yeah, they know
what happens with the bike but in all instances the team owns the
bikes and they are disposed of in many, many ways. Most bike
manufacturers also dictate how they are to be disposed of as well.
Since "what you know about this isn't a secret" I defy you to name one
single mechanic who kept the proceeds of bike sales at the end of the
season.
B. Lafferty
later this afternoon. I'll inquire about the retention policy.
B. Lafferty
I occurred to me that eBay would be an interesting vehicle for potential
money laundering. Anyone know how that might impact their record keeping?
Brad Anders
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-...
I heard this was coming out a few days ago. Now that I've read the
article, filled with accounts by Landis of doping practices by himself
and others, I have two questions:
1. Is there <any> physical evidence that supports his claims?
2. Will any of the many people present at the events he describes
corroborate his story, and back him up under oath?
IMO, if either or both of these questions have "yes" as an answer,
then lots of people are going down. If the answer is "no" to both
questions, then nothing will come of this.
Brad Anders
DA74
Bradford,
That's the first sensible post you've made about this whole Floyd
affair.
Thanks,
DA74
DA74
> The stuff he (Floyd) said about his own bike vs Lance's fits into the "makes up
> on the fly" category. And if he's making that up, you gotta wonder why?
I think you misinterpreted that part of the article.
> Maybe I shouldn't base too much on
> just one comment, but he's so full of it when he says that he was riding
> inferior equipment to Lance. I've been there, I've seen the bikes. I know
> the guy that anybody on the team could have called and said they needed a
> new bike and they'd get one. Fast. Never mind that they all have spares.
What Floyd was saying was that he and the rest of the non-Lances on
the team had to ride the same frames and or components all season, not
that they were riding models from previous years. And unless you
inspected each and every frame and component part with a fucking
magnifying glass you don't know shit.
> But geez, I'm not the most-connected person in
> the world, and yet I'm in a position to know he's making some stuff up.
Listen up big shot, you're actually not in a position to know that
he's making some stuff up because you've injected yourself and what
you think you know into the story. Get over yourself bro.
--D-y
> On 7/3/2010 12:10 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >news:YY2dnSGDg_8KwbLR...@giganews.com...
> >> On 7/3/2010 11:15 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>> "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:U7CdnfKhZri_3LLR...@giganews.com...
> >>>> On 7/3/2010 12:25 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>>>> "Keith" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >>>>>news:vsvs26dkvbhsp935c...@4ax.com...
> >>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 19:35:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> On 7/2/2010 7:24 PM, Keith wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jul 2010 18:09:10 -0400, "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior
> >>>>>>>>> restraint.
>
> >>>>>>>> So what are these rumours "should some of the rumours
> >>>>>>>> circulating be
> >>>>>>>> true"...let's head out to Twitter !
>
> >>>>>>> I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before
> >>>>>>> anyone
> >>>>>>> gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
>
> >>>>>> Twitter just pointed me to
About Greg?
--D-y
B. Lafferty
>>
>>>> Are you saying that team mechanics regularly sell off 60 new team
>>>> issue bicycles to supplement their income? If so, wouldn't we all love
>>>> one of those jobs? ;-)
>>
>>> Who says you don't get it?
>>
>>> Yes, you want that job. They can do quite well. Not 60 bikes well, of
>>> course, but the heirarchy is such that there's no way something like
>>> that is going to happen without the team mechanic knowing about it. It's
>>> the sort of thing you wouldn't want him to discover on his own, because
>>> basically you'd be intruding on his turf without permission. Plus he's
>>> the guy who knows how best to sell the merchandise and get the best
>>> price for it. Please understand this is long-standing tradition that has
>>> nothing to do with US Postal specifically. It's the way they *all*
>>> operate. So yes, the scale is immense, but it *is* a matter of scale
>>> that's involved here, not something new. I'm sure people are connecting
>>> the dots; what I know about how this works isn't secret.
>>
>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>> www.ChainReaction.com
>>
>> What's the name of Lemond's old mechanic who worked for Postal? He
>> supposedly has some doping testimony to provide.
>
> About Greg?
> --D-y
B. Lafferty
My friend told me that eBay has the details of virtually every
consummated transaction since its inception stored for retrieval. In her
words, "EBay is happy to comply with criminal search warrants and
subpoenas. The answer them all the time."
K. Fred Gauss
I'm happy you're convinced.
Anton Berlin
money was used for. No crime against using it for stippers and
their cocaine habits.
B. Lafferty
It's just one possible piece to the puzzle.
Brad Anders
That's good, since what it's the same thing I've been saying since the
beginning.
Brad Anders
Mike Jacoubowsky
She is not being entirely truthful saying that they're "happy" to comply
with criminal search warrants etc. They make PDs jump through hoops high
enough that it discourages the vast majority of attempts to run down
criminals selling stolen merchandise. I speak from personal experience here.
We have assisted *many* customers in retrieving their stolen bicycles off
eBay. Dealings between the local PDs and eBay aren't friendly. You literally
have to provide eBay with a criminal search warrant and/or subpoena to get
information out of them and bring action against somebody.
Why? Likely because of the HUGE $$$ eBay makes assisting people selling
stolen merchandise. If eBay had any interest in discouraging such sales,
there is one simple thing they could do, which would cost them nothing.
Require all serial numbers to be disclosed in the auction on relevant items.
The feedback mechanism would insure relative honesty. But eBay won't do
this.
Don't look to eBay for help under anything less than the most-coercive of
circumstances. I'll admit this has little to do with the current thread and
everything to do with my frustration getting eBay to help control the sale
of stolen bicycles.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:f7a55190-16c4-47aa...@x1g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 3, 9:17 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> The stuff he (Floyd) said about his own bike vs Lance's fits into the
> "makes up
> on the fly" category. And if he's making that up, you gotta wonder why?
====
I think you misinterpreted that part of the article.
====
Misinterpreted what?
> Maybe I shouldn't base too much on
> just one comment, but he's so full of it when he says that he was riding
> inferior equipment to Lance. I've been there, I've seen the bikes. I know
> the guy that anybody on the team could have called and said they needed a
> new bike and they'd get one. Fast. Never mind that they all have spares.
======
What Floyd was saying was that he and the rest of the non-Lances on
the team had to ride the same frames and or components all season, not
that they were riding models from previous years. And unless you
inspected each and every frame and component part with a fucking
magnifying glass you don't know shit.
======
Why do you think I don't carry a magnifying glass with me? OK, almost
serious about that. This is my business. Has been for almost 40 years now. I
study bikes to the nth detail. I look at rims for wear, wondering how often
they replace them. I study how they're cleaned, I ask about their routines
for replacing bearings, etc. This stuff fascinates me. So yeah, in this
case, I know what I'm talking about and you don't. I've been there. I've
done that. Get over it.
> But geez, I'm not the most-connected person in
> the world, and yet I'm in a position to know he's making some stuff up.
======
Listen up big shot, you're actually not in a position to know that
he's making some stuff up because you've injected yourself and what
you think you know into the story. Get over yourself bro.
======
Too bad my idea of a stiff drink is a Mtn Dew or maybe I'd have a chance of
understanding that.
K. Fred Gauss
> She is not being entirely truthful saying that they're "happy" to comply
> with criminal search warrants etc.
The poor woman showed up at a social event and had a wild-eyed Lafferty
accuse her of working for a company that's helping Lance Armstrong
obstruct justice. She responded that no, Ebay saves all information
about everything forever and gladly shares it with the authorities who
are investigating Lance Armstrong. What would you do in her place?
The other possibility is that this was another of Brian's imaginary
friends. You know, the ones that get manufactured whenever he needs
someone to agree with him.
Mike Jacoubowsky
=====
Big Jabowsky,
You are so fucking full of shit it is comical. That you can sit there
and say you know how "they *all* operate" is beyond ridiculous. That
mechanics sell the bikes and keep the proceeds as income is not a
"long standing tradition" and the only "turf" the mechanic owns is the
maintenance of the bikes which are owned by the team. Yeah, they know
what happens with the bike but in all instances the team owns the
bikes and they are disposed of in many, many ways. Most bike
manufacturers also dictate how they are to be disposed of as well.
Since "what you know about this isn't a secret" I defy you to name one
single mechanic who kept the proceeds of bike sales at the end of the
season.
=====
You're kidding right?
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:13c9541b-2dce-493a...@y32g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 3:09 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior
> restraint.http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-...
====
I heard this was coming out a few days ago. Now that I've read the
article, filled with accounts by Landis of doping practices by himself
and others, I have two questions:
1. Is there <any> physical evidence that supports his claims?
2. Will any of the many people present at the events he describes
corroborate his story, and back him up under oath?
IMO, if either or both of these questions have "yes" as an answer,
then lots of people are going down. If the answer is "no" to both
questions, then nothing will come of this.
Brad Anders
=====
Brad: If there's anything to #1, real physical evidence, yeah, this goes
places! No question.
But #2 on its own is just more he-said she-said stuff. It would take several
people with the same story to make something come of that. Just one person
("any") won't cut it.
That's my opinion. And frankly, I'm amazed there is yet no physical
evidence. It's got to be somewhere. Doping goes on in the peloton, and these
guys aren't all the brightest lights in a room. Where is the guy who took a
photo of something with his phone's camera? Why aren't these guys thinking
about leverage for their contracts? There are so many people who must be
involved, and conspiracies eventually fall apart when they involve more than
just a few.
Even physical evidence that doesn't directly involve US Postal but rather
other teams, something that corroborates what Landis has been saying, would
be fuel for the fire. When does this baby burn?
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:4c2f...@news.x-privat.org...
>
>> She is not being entirely truthful saying that they're "happy" to comply
>> with criminal search warrants etc.
>
> The poor woman showed up at a social event and had a wild-eyed Lafferty
> accuse her of working for a company that's helping Lance Armstrong
> obstruct justice. She responded that no, Ebay saves all information about
> everything forever and gladly shares it with the authorities who are
> investigating Lance Armstrong. What would you do in her place?
:-)
Steve Freides
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.
Yada, yada, yada, yawn.
-S-
DA74
> "DA74" <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Did you see a cute little emoticon? No. I called bullshit and you're
stalling.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> On 7/3/2010 9:41 AM, Betty wrote:
>
> > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >>> The "bikes for dope" thing is really interesting. For irony. Why?
> >>> Because it was Greg LeMond's bikes that caused us grief. What you read
> >>> about in the LeMond/Trek lawsuit was true; Greg's manager back-doored a
> >>> lot of bikes that went to "friends" and now we see claims of the same
> >>> thing from Lance.
>
> >> 60 bikes at $10K+ each on ebay or wherever, is $600,000 for doping.
> >> There's a lot to interest the feds in that and probably many good
> >> leads to follow.
>
> > Did government money pay for the bikes or was it a separate sponsorship
> > from Trek ?
>
> Part of the sponsorship deal in all probability. Assuming that
> Armstrong, Johan and others in Tailwind ownership/management knew of the
> sale, it would be part of the overall scheme to commit fraud on the USPS
> and SCA Promotions.
<snip>
Dumbass -
All teams sell their equipment either during or after the season. None
of the proceeds ever goes back to the sponsors. Sometimes the riders
get the money, sometimes management, sometimes the mechanics, etc.
etc.
Selling off sponsor equipment can be a big part of a $12k dreamer's
livelihood.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
1) Statute of limitations.
2) Alleged doping was outside US jurisdiction.
Mike Jacoubowsky
======
Did you see a cute little emoticon? No. I called bullshit and you're
stalling.
=====
Let me get this straight. You don't have the balls to post with your
real name, and you're calling me on not outing, by name, team mechanics
that sell "excess" sponsor-supplied product.
Yep. I'm the one with the credibility issue here.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"DA74" <davida...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8dfe7324-8542-4db3...@h40g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
Ryan Cousineau
> "Keith" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >>I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before anyone
> >>gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
>
> > Twitter just pointed me to
> >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870491170457532675320058...
> The "bikes for dope" thing is really interesting. For irony. Why? Because it
> was Greg LeMond's bikes that caused us grief. What you read about in the
> LeMond/Trek lawsuit was true; Greg's manager back-doored a lot of bikes that
> went to "friends" and now we see claims of the same thing from Lance.
>
> Also interesting, and not exactly ringing the bell of truth, are Landis's
> claims of being denied top equipment. I don't get this one at all. I've been
> to 9 TdFs and have seen the team bikes up close in most of them, including
> Floyd's. Everyone's got the same stuff.
Regarding the "same stuff," would Floyd's beef be regarding TT
equipment as well? Lance couldn't use it, but I wonder if Landis is
griping about not getting his own narrow bike? Reading the article, it
doesn't look that way. Wheel choices? Something else? General garbled
paranoia by Landis (not unprecedented, and not reason to disregard the
rest of the story).
Betty
> Too bad my idea of a stiff drink is a Mtn Dew or maybe I'd have a chance
> of understanding that.
viagra with Mtn Dew perhaps.
B. Lafferty
No Fred. She's a friend and we had a very pleasant conversation. She
said that eBay receives criminal subpoenas and search warrants quite
frequently and is "happy" to comply. Given the nature of computers, it
is not at all difficult to comply with most. The data is readily
available, searchable and easily produced.
Also, she subscribes to the WSJ and had seen the article about Armstrong.
A note to Mike J. Yes, eBay will not release materials to law
enforcement absent legal process. That's how the system works, my friend.
Mike Jacoubowsky
Brian: You likely know people in law enforcement. Ask them what it's
like dealing with eBay vs other organizations. It's not just about a
"process" it appears to also be about protecting a revenue stream that's
conservatively estimated at well over 10% of the product fenced, er, I
mean sold, on eBay. With other organizations, the police can call up a
contact and someone within the organization will investigate internally.
eBay makes very little effort to discourage sales of stolen product. As
I said, that one little thing, requiring serial numbers to be posted,
would have a HUGE effect, at no cost to eBay.
You surely have friends who have had bicycles stolen and likely fenced
on eBay? Yeah, this is personal.
Dan Becker
Jacoubowsky <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> "DA74" <davida...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Did you see a cute little emoticon? No. I called bullshit and you're
>> stalling.
>
> Let me get this straight. You don't have the balls to post with your
> real name, and you're calling me on not outing, by name, team mechanics
> that sell "excess" sponsor-supplied product.
I don't have any dog in the "fight," but if I am reading the headers
right, according to his email address your combatant is David Astor,
which is consistent with the shorthand signature. Don't know if that's
a pseudonym, but it is at least a name.
Dan
Fred Flintstein
Back in the day Team Motorola had their warehouse in Och's hometown
of Waukesha, Wi. I have Motorola kit that I bought from a team
mechanic that I paid cash for. It's a shame that none of those guys
came in the same dimensions as US fatty masters, all the sizes were
small or medium.
The idea that teams would keep bikes from year to year seems pretty
stupid. No bike sponsor would allow that.
Fred Flintstein
Fred Flintstein
> Did you see a cute little emoticon? No. I called bullshit and you're
> stalling.
If you're waiting for him to tell you to suck it, Mike won't
do that. But he's saying the sun rises in the east, that isn't
the sort of thing that you call bullshit on.
Fred Flintstein
DA74
wrote:
Oh, you're saying it's the word of god because it's coming from a Trek
dealer, I see. My bad. Well then, it shouldn't be that difficult for
Big Jabowsky to give me the name of just one mechanic who has been
gifted a stable of bikes to sell at the end of the year to augment his
salary then, right?
Oh and by the way, have you found out what that doping protocol is?
You know the one Belgian pros use where they pair stimulants with
"shit that enhances recovery"? I'm still waiting for your answer.
Damn you guys make simple things like fact checking your statements
very difficult.
Thanks,
DA Novitzky, 74
DA74
> In article <086dnXq9l9rhhq3RnZ2dnUVZ_sCdn...@earthlink.com>, Mike
>
> Jacoubowsky <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> > "DA74" <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> Did you see a cute little emoticon? No. I called bullshit and you're
> >> stalling.
>
> > Let me get this straight. You don't have the balls to post with your
> > real name, and you're calling me on not outing, by name, team mechanics
> > that sell "excess" sponsor-supplied product.
>
> I don't have any dog in the "fight," but if I am reading the headers
> right, according to his email address your combatant is David Astor,
> which is consistent with the shorthand signature. Don't know if that's
> a pseudonym, but it is at least a name.
>
> Dan
Thanks Dan. Mikey Mike hasn't taken his training wheels off yet and is
still using Outlook Express to read and post to Usenet so bear with
him. And yes, I was born in 1974 in case any of the Keystone Cops here
hadn't figured that one out either.
I even posted my old address here many years ago for Papaihole but he
never showed up.
Combatant: David C. Astor, 1974. Sunnyvale, CA. Blood Type: O+
DA74
> > > >> regarded
> > > >> as part of his income.
> > > > Are you saying that team mechanics regularly sell off 60 new team
> > > > issue
> > > > bicycles to supplement their income? If so, wouldn't we all love
> > > > one of
> > > > those jobs? ;-)
I called bullshit and you're still stalling.
But I'll play along: David C. Astor, 1974. Sunnyvale, CA. My favorite
color is Slipstream Argyle. Answer my question and I'll email you a
picture of Magilla naked (seriously).
Alright now it's your turn.
Okay okay, I'll let you off the hook a little since you're obviously
backed in a corner. Just name a team and the year and I'll do my own
factchecking. You don't have to name the mechanic. That should be
super easy for you.
Let me know,
Combatant DA74
Fred Gringioni
: On 7/3/2010 9:02 PM, K. Fred Gauss wrote:
: > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
: >
: >> She is not being entirely truthful saying that they're "happy" to
: >> comply with criminal search warrants etc.
: >
: > The poor woman showed up at a social event and had a wild-eyed Lafferty
: > accuse her of working for a company that's helping Lance Armstrong
: > obstruct justice. She responded that no, Ebay saves all information
: > about everything forever and gladly shares it with the authorities who
: > are investigating Lance Armstrong. What would you do in her place?
: >
: > The other possibility is that this was another of Brian's imaginary
: > friends. You know, the ones that get manufactured whenever he needs
: > someone to agree with him.
:
: No Fred. She's a friend and we had a very pleasant conversation. She
: said that eBay receives criminal subpoenas and search warrants quite
: frequently and is "happy" to comply. Given the nature of computers, it
: is not at all difficult to comply with most. The data is readily
: available, searchable and easily produced.
Dumbass -
There's this inconvenient thing called the Statute of Limitations.
Fred Gringioni
"Fred Flintstein" <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote in message
news:XNGdnZFJpLw-Ja3R...@giganews.com...
:
: Back in the day Team Motorola had their warehouse in Och's hometown
: of Waukesha, Wi. I have Motorola kit that I bought from a team
: mechanic that I paid cash for. It's a shame that none of those guys
: came in the same dimensions as US fatty masters, all the sizes were
: small or medium.
:
: The idea that teams would keep bikes from year to year seems pretty
: stupid. No bike sponsor would allow that.
Dumbass -
Not even a local Cat 1/2 team keeps bikes from year to year.
Fred Gringioni
:: Oh, you're saying it's the word of god because it's coming from a Trek
:: dealer, I see. My bad. Well then, it shouldn't be that difficult for
:: Big Jabowsky to give me the name of just one mechanic who has been
:: gifted a stable of bikes to sell at the end of the year to augment his
:: salary then, right?
Dumbass -
The revenue from the sales of bikes usually gets spread around. Typically,
everyone gets a little piece of the pie, but it varies from team to team.
I've never heard of a mechanic getting all of it. A mechanic is too low on
the totem pole. If one person was to get it all, it'd have to be a greedy
team manager.
Regardless, I have a really hard time seeing a federal case coming out of
that sort of thing, especially with the alleged actions being outside the
statute of limitations.
Fred Gringioni
: On 7/3/2010 9:02 PM, K. Fred Gauss wrote:
: > Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
: >
: >> She is not being entirely truthful saying that they're "happy" to
: >> comply with criminal search warrants etc.
: >
: > The poor woman showed up at a social event and had a wild-eyed Lafferty
: > accuse her of working for a company that's helping Lance Armstrong
: > obstruct justice. She responded that no, Ebay saves all information
: > about everything forever and gladly shares it with the authorities who
: > are investigating Lance Armstrong. What would you do in her place?
: >
: > The other possibility is that this was another of Brian's imaginary
: > friends. You know, the ones that get manufactured whenever he needs
: > someone to agree with him.
:
: No Fred. She's a friend and we had a very pleasant conversation. She
: said that eBay receives criminal subpoenas and search warrants quite
: frequently and is "happy" to comply. Given the nature of computers, it
: is not at all difficult to comply with most. The data is readily
: available, searchable and easily produced.
Dumbass -
Again, all teams sell their equipment either during or after the season.
None
of the proceeds ever goes back to the sponsors. Sometimes the riders
get the money, sometimes management, sometimes the mechanics, etc.
etc.
Selling off sponsor equipment can be a big part of a $12k dreamer's
livelihood.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
K. Fred Gauss
> No Fred. She's a friend and we had a very pleasant conversation. She
> said that eBay receives criminal subpoenas and search warrants quite
> frequently and is "happy" to comply. Given the nature of computers, it
> is not at all difficult to comply with most. The data is readily
> available, searchable and easily produced.
There's too much here that you don't understand for you to understand
that you don't understand.
I apologize for insulting you by insinuating that you would ever stoop
to using sock puppets, citing imaginary friends, or inventing evidence
to support your preconceived notions.
DA74
wrote:
This is a DA74 Certified correct assessment.
Betty
> I even posted my old address here many years ago for Papaihole but he
> never showed up.
You probably forgot to wear purple. Papai only fought purple people.
Betty
> Answer my question and I'll email you a picture of Magilla naked (seriously).
With or without a ball patch ?
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:i0qp3j$bie$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Mechanics don't get all of it. The various riders sell their own
"excess" stuff, no secret there. And the mechanic sells "leftover" stuff
at the end of the year. People approach mechanics of various teams at
the TdF; whether sales happen there or later I do not know. But I've
watched this at US Postal, Astana prior to Bruyneel, and some time ago I
was looking into various product that I happen to sell and was told by
people in a position to know such things that this was normal and part
of the team mechanic's income.
Of course, we're now looking at some more pieces of a very intricate
puzzle falling into place. Who actually orchestrated the sale of the
bikes in question, now referenced by Floyd Landis and confirmed by Trek?
That happens to be the time period in question for the stuff I came
across first-hand. Was the explanation at the time correct (that this
was something done by the mechanics?). I do not know. I've been about as
transparent on this as I can.
Mike Jacoubowsky
==========
I called bullshit and you're still stalling.
But I'll play along: David C. Astor, 1974. Sunnyvale, CA. My favorite
color is Slipstream Argyle. Answer my question and I'll email you a
picture of Magilla naked (seriously).
Alright now it's your turn.
Okay okay, I'll let you off the hook a little since you're obviously
backed in a corner. Just name a team and the year and I'll do my own
factchecking. You don't have to name the mechanic. That should be
super easy for you.
Let me know,
Combatant DA74
===========
I've given enough information in a reply to "Fred Gringioni" for you to
connect the dots (and after your threat regarding that picture, that's
as much as you'll ever get. Even if I thought there was really good
reason. There could never be a good-enough reason to risk that.) And
yeah, stupid of me to not look at your header. My bad, you're not one of
the anonymous folk, and you get my respect for that.
1974 is a birth date or when you raced? I don't recall seeing your name
back in the day.
Thanks-
Andre Jute
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior restraint.http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-...
These allegations have been flying around for years. Everyone,
including cyclists, take doping in racing for granted; it is almost as
if you guys want your heroes to be bad.
But after all these years, where is the physical evidence?
Photographs? These guys are some of the most photographed athletes on
earth. And if the paparazzi fail, everyone has a camera on his phone,
including the other alleged dopers. Yet not one photograph of doping
has emerged.
Consistent semi-official doping involving team doctors, if it ever
happened, would soon have come to seem so normal, so much condoned and
overlooked that legality and punishment would slip into the back of
everyone's mind. Yet, after all these years, not a single invoice has
appeared where someone bought the chemicals in bulk. How can there be
no paperwork, the huge amount of dope that must have been required if
the position is as bad as everyone smacks their lips over salaciously?
If the top level of the sport is riddled with drugs, how come so few
people are being caught? Cycling must now be the most invigilated
sport in the world for drugs, and they haven't caught dozens of
people. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?
What have we got here? One actual cheat trying for moral equivalence?
One wonders what the publicity is worth to Landis.
Andre Jute
Guilt by association may be all right for the French, who don't know
any better, but it is not the American Way
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:9a955154-b74c-4027...@p22g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 9:25 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> "Keith" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> >>I have a feeling this will break for us on Twitter long before
> >>anyone
> >>gets their hands on the WSJ tomorrow.
>
> > Twitter just pointed me to
> >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870491170457532675320058...
> The "bikes for dope" thing is really interesting. For irony. Why?
> Because it
> was Greg LeMond's bikes that caused us grief. What you read about in
> the
> LeMond/Trek lawsuit was true; Greg's manager back-doored a lot of
> bikes that
> went to "friends" and now we see claims of the same thing from Lance.
>
> Also interesting, and not exactly ringing the bell of truth, are
> Landis's
> claims of being denied top equipment. I don't get this one at all.
> I've been
> to 9 TdFs and have seen the team bikes up close in most of them,
> including
> Floyd's. Everyone's got the same stuff.
======
Regarding the "same stuff," would Floyd's beef be regarding TT
equipment as well? Lance couldn't use it, but I wonder if Landis is
griping about not getting his own narrow bike? Reading the article, it
doesn't look that way. Wheel choices? Something else? General garbled
paranoia by Landis (not unprecedented, and not reason to disregard the
rest of the story).
======
You're right, they did build a special "narrow" TT bike for Lance and,
if I recall correctly, one other rider who happened to fit the same
size. But it didn't sound like that's what Landis was talking about.
Wheels, etc., all the same stuff. It's not a good thing when you have to
support multiple configurations on the same team (which was the case
with Lance's DuraAce "Look" pedals for years... now he's using the same
pedals as everyone else on the team, because there had already been
issues with bike changes and making sure you got Lance the one with the
right pedals, or at least that's the story).
The problem is that he (Landis) seems to make some stuff up as he goes
along, because it sounds like a good story. He may even believe his own
lies; in his mind, he's telling a version of the truth, or at least
something based upon something real that's evolved into something with
little semblance to what actually happened.
As I mentioned in another thread some time ago, cell phones with cameras
have been around for quite some time (2003 or 2004 they became
relatively common?). Casually documenting the equipment he says was in
use would have been easy. Not just for Landis, but for anybody. I remain
amazed that nothing has surfaced, because we *know* it (sophisticated
doping techniques) went on. We just don't know the exact specifics for
who, what & where. Either that or the lack of physical evidence tells us
the sport is and has been pretty much 100% clean and these are all
complete fabrications, and that's the least-likely scenario of all.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:240e0c9e-4af2-481d...@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 2, 11:09 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Unlikely given the distaste the US courts have for prior
> restraint.http://road.cc/content/news/19616-wall-street-journal-landis-article-...
These allegations have been flying around for years. Everyone,
including cyclists, take doping in racing for granted; it is almost as
if you guys want your heroes to be bad.
But after all these years, where is the physical evidence?
Photographs? These guys are some of the most photographed athletes on
earth. And if the paparazzi fail, everyone has a camera on his phone,
including the other alleged dopers. Yet not one photograph of doping
has emerged.
Consistent semi-official doping involving team doctors, if it ever
happened, would soon have come to seem so normal, so much condoned and
overlooked that legality and punishment would slip into the back of
everyone's mind. Yet, after all these years, not a single invoice has
appeared where someone bought the chemicals in bulk. How can there be
no paperwork, the huge amount of dope that must have been required if
the position is as bad as everyone smacks their lips over salaciously?
If the top level of the sport is riddled with drugs, how come so few
people are being caught? Cycling must now be the most invigilated
sport in the world for drugs, and they haven't caught dozens of
people. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?
What have we got here? One actual cheat trying for moral equivalence?
One wonders what the publicity is worth to Landis.
Andre Jute
Guilt by association may be all right for the French, who don't know
any better, but it is not the American Way
========
"One actual cheat trying for moral equivalence?"
What date does this post show for others here? On my computer it's 7/4.
I'll check on another; surely it must be 4/1.
DA74
> "Fred Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:i0qp3j$bie$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "DA74" <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Mikey Mike,
There's no disputing that everyone involved with a team sells their
excess stuff: helmets, shoes, jerseys, bibs, glasses. What you wrote
earlier in this thread is that mechanics sell bikes and keep the money
as income from the team. That's my only point of contention. I'm
telling you that this is not how it works now and hasn't worked in the
past.
The bikes given to the team by sponsors are the one of the primary
hard assets of the team. I've never heard of a team owner giving bikes
away to the mechanic to sell and keep the money. They may have the
mechanic help them sell the bikes but that's about it.
Now let me float and idea here and stay with me okay? Did you ever
think that you may have gotten some bad information? And maybe, just
maybe that whomever you asked (however chummy you think he was to you)
didn't really want to clue you into the fact that the owners are
cheating on their taxes by selling this shit and not reporting it to
the IRS as a disposition / liquidation of company assets? Come on man.
I'm getting tired of holding your hand here bro.
-DownlowSevenFo'
Mike Jacoubowsky
> "excess" stuff, no secret there. And the mechanic sells "leftover" stuff
> at the end of the year. People approach mechanics of various teams at
> the TdF; whether sales happen there or later I do not know. But I've
> watched this at US Postal, Astana prior to Bruyneel, and some time ago I
> was looking into various product that I happen to sell and was told by
> people in a position to know such things that this was normal and part
> of the team mechanic's income.
>
Mikey Mike,
There's no disputing that everyone involved with a team sells their
excess stuff: helmets, shoes, jerseys, bibs, glasses. What you wrote
earlier in this thread is that mechanics sell bikes and keep the money
as income from the team. That's my only point of contention. I'm
telling you that this is not how it works now and hasn't worked in the
past.
The bikes given to the team by sponsors are the one of the primary
hard assets of the team. I've never heard of a team owner giving bikes
away to the mechanic to sell and keep the money. They may have the
mechanic help them sell the bikes but that's about it.
Now let me float and idea here and stay with me okay? Did you ever
think that you may have gotten some bad information? And maybe, just
maybe that whomever you asked (however chummy you think he was to you)
didn't really want to clue you into the fact that the owners are
cheating on their taxes by selling this shit and not reporting it to
the IRS as a disposition / liquidation of company assets? Come on man.
I'm getting tired of holding your hand here bro.
-DownlowSevenFo'
=====
Nope, can't back-track that far on what I said. I remember how it came up
now. I was asking about how the winnings were split among team members, who
got what, and it was pointed out that mechanics aren't left out because they
get to sell off equipment at the end of the season. Thanks for jogging my
memory on the specifics. 2003. Is that too old to count? I'm not thinking
things change that much over the years.
I never said that a team owner gave bikes away to a mechanic to sell. Where
did you get that idea? I got into this by pointing out that the team
mechanics were experienced at selling team stuff, not that a team owner
specifically gave them stuff to sell to line their pockets with. Where you
might have become confused is that I said a team mechanic might best know
how to sell the merchandise.
Regarding cheating on taxes etc., please spell this one out for me. Who is
cheating on taxes? What "owners?" Are you talking about people on the team,
people who own the team, sponsors or what?
Maybe it's all semantics.
Meantime, serious attempt at deflection, do you think the biological
passport has helped make the sport cleaner, or has it just created yet
another benchmark used to determine what you can safely get away with?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
DA74
Maybe I got the idea because we've been talking bike selling the whole
fucking time. Especially after you responded to Lafferty's post when
he mentioned that "it would be nice to be a mechanic and get the
proceeds of selling 60 Treks" with your whole "yes you can do quite
well" spiel. To which I said you were full of shit that mechanics
don't get to keep the proceeds of bike sales to which you argued.
Even still, if you're talking trinkets and swag then I'll agree but
that's about the extent of it. Team owners aren't in the business of
gifting team assets to the wrenches.
> Regarding cheating on taxes etc., please spell this one out for me. Who is
> cheating on taxes? What "owners?" Are you talking about people on the team,
> people who own the team, sponsors or what?
Jezus Mike ease up on the ghetto redbulls. There's only one owner of a
bike team and they own all the equipment the second they receive it
from the sponsors. This property, when sold, should be reported but do
you really think it is? Do you think those cash sales at Veloswap are
making it to the books? Do you think those consignments at
theprosstuff.com are making it to the books? Do you think those eBay
sales make it?
> Maybe it's all semantics.
If that's another way of saying you were wrong then apology accepted
(sorry couldn't help it...-).
DA74