Could Landis be telling the truth?
Anton Berlin
doubtful that if you're using them from time to time that you wouldn't
use them if you needed them in a pinch (even though you know you
shouldn't and might get caught) a regular user might think he could
fly below radar on a one time use. But there is the reality that THC
(as an example) is stored in fat cells and later metabolizing of fat
stores can result in a postive test for the chronic user.
One of the worst things a chronic user can do is to exercise heavily
before a urine test.
The theory is then - if T is stored in fat and a hard stage (16 in
this case) causes the T to become available in the system then perhaps
Floyd is like the chronic pot smoker that fails a test weeks after he
stopped smoking simply because he 'free'd up' some stored T.
He's still a cheater, still a doper but might have been telling the
truth.
Frederick the Great
<5d798ba2-f0d1-4828...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Good subtle work rehabilitating Floyd Landis
so that he can be taken at his word.
--
Old Fritz
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> In article
> <5d798ba2-f0d1-4828-9b0e-77b5ace74...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Dumbass -
Three words: Floyd Fairness Fund
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
director, 2010 New Floyd Fairness Fund
Henry
look up pathalogical liar
he has mental health problems
Frederick the Great
<5d798ba2-f0d1-4828...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Floyd Landis has been caught in lies,
and never once owned up to being a liar.
Nothing he says can be credited.
--
Old Fritz
K. Fred Gauss
While I believe a good bit of the WSJ story, I'm also sympathetic to
this point of view. Everything Landis says needs to be verified by at
least 2 good sources before it ends up in court. Landis is Mr. Impeachable.
Fred Gringioni
"K. Fred Gauss" <N...@This.Planet> wrote in message
news:4c317482$1...@news.x-privat.org...
Dumbass -
The stuff w/ Postal is outside the statute of limitations.
They're gonna have to stick with Rock Racing.
Fred Flintstein
> Frederick the Great wrote:
>> In article
>> <5d798ba2-f0d1-4828...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>> and never once owned up to being a liar.
>> Nothing he says can be credited.
>>
>
> While I believe a good bit of the WSJ story, I'm also sympathetic to
> this point of view. Everything Landis says needs to be verified by at
> least 2 good sources before it ends up in court. Landis is Mr. Impeachable.
Dumbasses,
Has anyone noticed that the WSJ stuff with gaping logic
holes is coming from a paid interview with a guy that is
broke?
And according to the WSJ it sounds likely to a crack head.
How could that not be considered a good source?
You guys are just a pack of slobbering LANCE fanboys.
Fred Flintstein
K. Fred Gauss
> You guys are just a pack of slobbering LANCE fanboys.
Lafferty logic. Lafferty thinks the fact that someone disagrees with him
makes them a Lance fanboy. You think the fact that I'm slobbering makes
me a Lance fanboy.
You should be ashamed!
K. Fred Gauss
> Dumbass -
>
> The stuff w/ Postal is outside the statute of limitations.
>
Landis' secret evidence that Lance is a serial killer will extend the
statute of limitations. Lemond is pretty sure it's true, too, so we've
got corroborating testimony.
Frederick the Great
Fred Gringioni
"Frederick the Great" <los...@the.movies> wrote in message
news:lostit-182870....@news.albasani.net...
: In article <4c3211cb$1...@news.x-privat.org>,
Dumbass -
I thought LANCE lomested LemonD when he was a child.
Andy Coggan
> The theory is then - if T is stored in fat and a hard stage (16 in
> this case) causes the T to become available in the system
Except that Landis' testosterone level wasn't high, it was low.
Andy Coggan
Anton Berlin
If T ( or the markers for T) are stored in the fat the same way that
THC is stored then a 'bonking' stage where one goes deep into fat
reserves that then releases the compounds into the blood stream that
could cause a positive test.
Just found this (first time I've ever cited 'fox news' so I must be
getting desperate !! )
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206001,00.html
Tour de France champion Floyd Landis tested positive for high levels
of testosterone, but experts tell WebMD that there could be many
reasons why.
Wire reports say that 30-year-old Landis tested positive for what is
being called "an unusual level of testosterone:epitestosterone" during
the three-week race.
"This is huge news," says steroid law expert and former body builder
Rick Collins of Carle Place, N.Y.
But Collins is quick to add Landis is innocent until proven guilty.
"Don’t draw any conclusions yet and certainly if he didn't, in fact,
consume testosterone, Landis should mount a very vigorous defense,"
says Collins, author of Legal Muscle.
For starters, the test looks at the ratio of testosterone to
epitestosterone and is highly likely to yield false-positive results.
The initial results must be confirmed by further testing and it is not
yet known when this will occur. Until then, there is no conclusive
evidence of doping, he says.
In the interim, Landis has been suspended. If Landis is found guilty
of doping, he could be stripped of the Tour title and Spain's Oscar
Pereiro would become champion, wire reports say.
"When balance between testosterone and epitestosterone are
sufficiently far enough apart, it is deemed to be positive for
doping," he says. But there are other reasons that this ratio can be
off, he says. For example, studies have shown that a spike in
testosterone can also result from certain circumstances occuring
either before or after winning games, he says.
Testosterone Effects Not Immediate
At one point in the three-week race, it seemed as though Landis was
petering out. But "an injection of testosterone is not some sort of
miracle, immediate boost like an amphetamine or stimulant," Collins
says. "Athletes who use testosterone use it over a fairly long course
and the benefit accumulates over a period of time."
Testosterone would not account for his comeback, Collins stresses.
"A single shot of testosterone would provide little or no benefit."
John Eliot, PhD, a professor of human performance at Rice University
in Houston, and the author of "Overachievement," agrees with Collins.
"The likelihood [that he used illegal substances] seems small to me,"
he tells WebMD. "Landis is a pretty straightforward guy and
personality-wise he does not want to take the easy route," he says.
Could Hip Condition Be a Factor?
Landis is known to have a degenerative, painful hip condition.
"His body, in an attempt to recover, will naturally release more
testosterone as part of the recovery process," Eliot says. Also "who
knows what he is taking for the pain and this too could interfere with
the testing results."
On the other hand, "if his hip was really falling apart, maybe the
only way to finish the race was to take testosterone to block the
pain," he suggests.
Exactly when he tested positive is also somewhat suspicious, says
Eliot. The test was done at stage 17, which coincides with one of the
most intense parts of the race.
"The more heavily we exert ourselves, the more naturally our body
releases testosterone," he says.
"Fans assume guilt until innocence is proven, but there are a lot of
reasons to believe he could be innocent," he says.
Carlos R. Hamilton Jr., MD, professor of medicine and an
endocrinologist at University of Texas Health Sciences Center in
Houston, and a member of the health, medical, and research committee
of the World Anti-Doping Agency, is also reserving his judgment.
"The fact that it is strictly a testosterone level does not mean it
came from outside of the body, it could have been produced
internally," he says. "It's a perfectly normal occurring hormone."
He says that there is a large variation in what they consider normal
on this test and no one knows exactly how Landis scored. "Were his
results within normal limits or just out of sight?" he asks.
The bottom line is that the information was released too prematurely,
he says. "Wait until we get the final answers. If he cheated, it will
be recognized; if he did not, this does him a great disservice."
Phil H
IIRC, it was the carbon ratio (12 to 14) which indicated a synthetic
testosterone (doping) not the level of testosterone.
Phil H
Doug Smith
I think a lot of people are reading this wrong. The problem isn't
whether or not Floyd lied, but the perspective of the observers. Floyd
doesn't say shit in order to please or appease the public, so if you're
looking at him from the perspective of a bike fan or similar, you're not
getting the right picture.
Floyd's ethos has been very simple and incredibly consistent. He chose
to join a system, and that system asked and required that he dope. From
then on, he's done everything that he could avoid getting caught. He's
lied and been as fraudulent as every other rider in the system. Once
getting caught, he's denied wrongdoing - just like almost every rider
that I've heard about. The difference is that Floyd appears more angry.
He took it to the next level and decided that if he was going to get
screwed then he would screw the others around him.
Some actions he's taken, when considered as singular events, are not
credible. Take his ethos as a whole, even if people generally don't
agree with it, and you have a rational train of thought that is
completely believable.
Fred Flintstein
> He took it to the next level and decided that if he was going to get
> screwed then he would screw the others around him.
I think he's broke and needs money. Maybe I'm just
over simplifying it. But he's broke and has no
income.
Fred Flintstein
Fred Gringioni
"Doug Smith" <slu...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:rxrYn.8538$Z6.7065@edtnps82...
:
: Some actions he's taken, when considered as singular events, are not
: credible. Take his ethos as a whole, even if people generally don't
: agree with it, and you have a rational train of thought that is
: completely believable.
Dumbass -
Where does: "if you don't let my team into the Tour of California, I'm going
to the Feds" fit into this ethos?
Doug Smith
If he's in the system, he's a happy Floyd. But he's not so that's where
the joyride ends.
My main point is that hell yeah he lied. Hell yeah he's a fraud.
That's part of the system. He is absolutely as credible as any other
one of the frauds and liers. Has he contradicted his ethos? I would say
he hasn't.
I gotta admit, he seems like a crazy dude. But crazy doesn't
necessarily mean not credible.
Ryan Cousineau
The initial test showed a low T-level (not a shock late in Le Tour),
but a weird T-E ratio (normal people have these two in about a 1:1
ratio, but a T-patch will make your T higher than your E). This
ultimately led to LNDD doing the CIR test, which demonstrated the
presence of synthetic T in Landis' sample.
You don't have to guess or recall about this, the Wikipedia article on
the matter is fairly good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis_doping_case
And here's the USADA appeal report:
http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/landis%20final%20(20-09-07)%20(3).pdf
Note that they dismissed the T:E ratio accusation, but busted Landis
on the exogenous T charge. Having trashed your "IIRC" above, if I
recall, the sample tested as a low T quantity (legal), but the T:E
ratio was why it was flagged for more scrutiny, which led to the
conclusive-to-USADA CIR test.
As to what really happened, speculate away!
Amit Ghosh
> If he's in the system, he's a happy Floyd. But he's not so that's where
> the joyride ends.
>
> My main point is that hell yeah he lied. Hell yeah he's a fraud.
> That's part of the system. He is absolutely as credible as any other
> one of the frauds and liers. Has he contradicted his ethos? I would say
> he hasn't.
>
> I gotta admit, he seems like a crazy dude. But crazy doesn't
> necessarily mean not credible.
dumbass,
the landis allegations are in the same category as the LNDD 1999
samples. it could be damning, but it's dismissed because it isn't in
the form of proper evidence. in the case of the LNDD samples, they
weren't handled and tested the way it is expected that doping control
samples be tested (eg. chain of custody. no b-sample).
Fredmaster of Brainerd
wrote:
>
> And according to the WSJ it sounds likely to a crack head.
If only we could get the Usenet tagline and
Google Groups description of rbr to be changed
from "Bicycle racing techniques, rules and results"
to "Sounds likely to a crack head," all would be
right in the world and peace and harmony would
abound.
Fredmaster Ben
Phil H
>
> Note that they dismissed the T:E ratio accusation, but busted Landis
> on the exogenous T charge. Having trashed your "IIRC" above, if I
> recall, the sample tested as a low T quantity (legal), but the T:E
> ratio was why it was flagged for more scrutiny, which led to the
> conclusive-to-USADA CIR test.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
From your own wiki reference:
Test results from Floyd Landis' "A" test sample indicated that while
the ratio was 11:1, his testosterone level was in the normal range and
the problem was actually a deficient level of epitestosterone.
And:
synthetic testosterone had been detected in the A sample, using the
carbon isotope ratio test CIR. The presence of synthetic testosterone
means that some of the testosterone in Landis’s body came from an
external source and was not naturally produced by his own system.
These results conflict with Landis's public speculation that it was a
natural occurrence.
Was my IIRC below really trashed?
Frederick the Great
<a32ac749-333e-4e94...@y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote:
All this crawling through muck simply to get at LANCE.
Heyyyy. Wait a minute. You're not Anton Berlin.
You're Greg L'Équipe.
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
<e0a2ffbe-85a0-4fdf...@t13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
Why does the Department of Agriculture have anything to say about this?
> http://www.usantidoping.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/landis%20final%20(20-09-07)%20(3).pdf
>
> Note that they dismissed the T:E ratio accusation, but busted Landis
> on the exogenous T charge. Having trashed your "IIRC" above, if I
> recall, the sample tested as a low T quantity (legal), but the T:E
> ratio was why it was flagged for more scrutiny, which led to the
> conclusive-to-USADA CIR test.
>
> As to what really happened, speculate away!
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
wrote:
So what is your point? He lied but is telling the truth now?
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
wrote:
> On 7/5/2010 2:55 PM, Fred Gringioni wrote:
That he lied over and over means that he is not credible.
--
Old Fritz
K. Fred Gauss
> I think a lot of people are reading this wrong. The problem isn't
> whether or not Floyd lied, but the perspective of the observers. Floyd
> doesn't say shit in order to please or appease the public,
That is an incorrect analysis. Floyd shows great awareness of, and
desire to control, public opinion.
- Floyd Fairness Fund = "There's money to be made off of public opinion"
- ToC Entry Blackmail = "Do what I want or I'll create a public
relations nightmare."
- WSJ Article = 100% manipulation of public opinion.
- Late night phone call to Greg L. = "Do what I want or I'll make your
personal demons public."
There's more, if you need it.
Anton Berlin
>
> - Late night phone call to Greg L. = "Do what I want or I'll make your
> personal demons public."
>
> There's more, if you need it.
That wasn't Landis but someone connected to him that was dismissed
right away.
Fred Gringioni
"Anton Berlin" <truth...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:874ad9d9-f178-4685...@t13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
:
: >
: > - Late night phone call to Greg L. = "Do what I want or I'll make your
Dumbass -
"let my team into the Tour of California or I'm going to the Feds"
That is just slimy.
Floyd isn't mad that people are doping. He's mad that things didn't turn out
for him so he wants to mess with the lives of the people (not just LANCE, he
named all sorts of names, but not Tyler Hamilton) who it is working for.
Real upstanding character there.
"If you don't let me into the Tour of California, I'm going to the Feds with
the names of all the guys I don't like. The guys whom I like will be left
out"
Lame!