P-R perspective
Scott
a retired Belgian pro, someone who'd won his share of classics...
anyway, I'm paraphrasing a bit: Boonen was racing as if to show how
strong he was and how much he deserved to win (IOW, too much time on
the front) vs Cancellara was racing to win (IOW, almost never on the
front except when it mattered).
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
you don't have to be a classics winner to come to that conclusion. any
rbr douchebag can come to the same conclusion.
ps. i hope the "retired pro" at least gave you a reach-around.
Fred K. Gringioni
"Amit Ghosh" <amit....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbc03053-7a3f-474c-a811-
> you don't have to be a classics winner to come to that conclusion. any
> rbr douchebag can come to the same conclusion.
Dumbass -
You exagerrate a bit.
Neither Kunich nor Keith and probably not Bruce is capable of even this
basic analysis.
thanks,
Fred. presented by Gringioni.
Fred K. Gringioni
"Scott" <hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9a445c97-3baa-453c...@i37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Dumbass -
We totally hashed this out already in the "I don't speak much Dutch" thread.
Scott
wrote:
> "Scott" <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I see. I hadn't read that thread before posting, but now that I have,
I have to say that some of your points were also addressed in my
conversations last week while in Belgium. For example, I'd asked why
Boonen insisting on sharing so much of the work during Flanders, and
why he didn't just sit on more. It seems that it didn't have anything
to do with Boonen not being smart enough or too stubborn or proud to
sit on, but rather it all had to do with the fact that, unlike in US
amateur racing, the Euro pros just can't get away with that as they
would lose all respect amongst their peers. Apparently they don't see
wheel-sucking as the art form that we do.
Scott
You're right, you don't have to be a multi-classics winner, but it
does lend a bit more credence to it than say, your opinion or perhaps
TK's opinion. You go win L-B-L and maybe we'll pay attention to you.
Fred K. Gringioni
> I see. I hadn't read that thread before posting, but now that I have,
> I have to say that some of your points were also addressed in my
> conversations last week while in Belgium. For example, I'd asked why
> Boonen insisting on sharing so much of the work during Flanders, and
> why he didn't just sit on more. It seems that it didn't have anything
> to do with Boonen not being smart enough or too stubborn or proud to
> sit on, but rather it all had to do with the fact that, unlike in US
> amateur racing, the Euro pros just can't get away with that as they
> would lose all respect amongst their peers. Apparently they don't see
> wheel-sucking as the art form that we do.
Dumbass -
That's bullshit. Read Hincapie's comments from Flanders and Boonen's
comments from Roubaix. There were always a few guys who wouldn't share in
the work chasing and it killed the cooperative will of those who would
(chasing Boonen/Cancellara @ Flanders and Cancellara @ P-R).
Sharing the work may have been an admirable ethos for Boonen in Flanders,
but his overaggressiveness @ Paris-Roubaix was his undoing. He wasn't nearly
as strong as Cancellara. If he wanted to win, he should've realized it and
tailored his tactics with that fact in mind.
Scott
wrote:
> "Scott" <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Dumbass,
I guess we'll just have to agree to agree. I'm not arguing against
your points, and apparently you're not arguing mine. We agree Boonen
overdid it at Roubaix and we don't disagree that some riders didn't
help in the chase, which is a completely different thing than sitting
on Cancellara's wheel for 50km and which would've resulting in great
scorn for Boonen.
Quick quiz: what is perhaps the single greatest example of a 'cagey'
rider sitting on the wheel of a strong TT rider, then outsprinting
them for the win? Think Big!
Fred K. Gringioni
On Apr 13, 11:17 am, "Fred K. Gringioni" <kgringi...@hotmail.com>
> Quick quiz: what is perhaps the single greatest example of a 'cagey'
> rider sitting on the wheel of a strong TT rider, then outsprinting
> them for the win? Think Big!
Dumbass -
I guess I missed your sarcasm. Sorry.
As for the question, I think most people would say Bruyneel/Indurain at the
TdF, but the one I like is Sean Kelly/Moreno Argentin @ Milan-San Remo. That
was epic.
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
here's a list of recent LBL winners :
valverde
di luca
hamilton
vandenbroucke
rebellin
vinokourov
camenzind
berzin
gianetti
i figure i'm just a couple faxes and oil changes away from a podium
spot.
Amit Ghosh
> I guess we'll just have to agree to agree. I'm not arguing against
> your points, and apparently you're not arguing mine. We agree Boonen
> overdid it at Roubaix and we don't disagree that some riders didn't
> help in the chase, which is a completely different thing than sitting
> on Cancellara's wheel for 50km and which would've resulting in great
> scorn for Boonen.
>
> Quick quiz: what is perhaps the single greatest example of a 'cagey'
> rider sitting on the wheel of a strong TT rider, then outsprinting
> them for the win? Think Big!
dumbass,
you're probably thinking of boogerd sitting on armstrong at amstel,
but i can think of lots of cases where a rider sat on even at the risk
of getting caught/leeting a break go in order to win. pozzatto did in
the E3 last year.
pros generally don't work just for the hell of it - unlike most
dumabss amateurs. boogerd sat on because he could, he had teammates
chasing, working and then losing because of it is dumb.
boogerd pissed off all the papai-clones, but they don't understand
team tactics (it's not just leadouts and drafting).
Scott
Gotta think further back. How about this, you go put in a 14 yr pro
career with a few big classics wins in the pre-radio days, then I'll
pay attention to your comments re: race tactics.
Scott
Actually, I was referring to Bruyneel. Anyway, there is a subtle
difference between my example, any of the other examples, and the
Cancellara/Boonen example. In the Cancellara/Boonen case, we're
talking about a race that is traditionally won by the strongest rider
(as it was this year) and there's no great pride in being a wheel
sucker when an entire nation expects you to be that 'strongest'
rider. The other cases were cagey riders who were clearly not up to
the standard of the rider they followed and their only hopes were to
shamelessly wheel suck.
Henry
would show the win
RobertH
> assuming Boonen did suck Cancellara's wheel ...
The bizarre assumption is this idea that Cancellara would have just
TT'd all the way to the line with Boonen on his wheel.
K. Fred Gauss
> I guess we'll just have to agree to agree.
+ about a million points for that comment.
Amit Ghosh
> Actually, I was referring to Bruyneel. Anyway, there is a subtle
> difference between my example, any of the other examples, and the
> Cancellara/Boonen example. In the Cancellara/Boonen case, we're
> talking about a race that is traditionally won by the strongest rider
dumbass,
i disagee, LBL is a type of race that is won by the strongest rider. a
lot of times the PR winner is the luckiest (last yr the whole break
behind boonen crashed out) and the race favors team tactics (flat,
small groups) - a strong /well-organized team is more important in PR
than in a race like LBL.
that is why lefevere teams won it 7 times in 8 years (1995-2002) and
10 times since 1995.
> (as it was this year) and there's no great pride in being a wheel
> sucker when an entire nation expects you to be that 'strongest'
> rider.
a someone else pointed out. it wasn't as if cancellara would ride 50
kms with boonen on his wheel. if you've raced you been the the
position where you're in a break with someone who won't or can't
contribute you know that you have the choice to either sit up and try
again or try to drop them.
if boonen had maked cancellara more closely he might not have won, but
it would've played out like E3 or RVV, where in order to win
cancellara would have to attack sometime before a final sprint.
Scott
Like I said, if you had 14 years as a Euro pro, I'd pay attention to
your opinions. You don't, and I don't.
Amit Ghosh
> Actually, I was referring to Bruyneel. Anyway, there is a subtle
> difference between my example,
dumbass,
there is also a very non subtle difference:
a stage in a stage race is a different situation than a one day race.
often in a stage race one rider might be looking to gain time the
others might be trying to win the stage.
indurain was looking for time, so it was in his interest to keep
pulling, rather than conserving himself to win the stage.
Amit Ghosh
> Like I said, if you had 14 years as a Euro pro, I'd pay attention to
> your opinions. You don't, and I don't.
dumbass,
i have the benefit of careful observation - you don't.
Betty Munro
> i have the benefit of careful observation - you don't.
Save that for the strippers.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Like I said, if you had 14 years as a Euro pro, I'd pay attention to
>your opinions. You don't, and I don't.
So why read it if you knew ahead of time that 1) he wasn't a 14 year
Euro pro and 2) you weren't going to pay attention to his opinion? Or
did you paste on your reply without reading his post, which would
explain why you appear to be disagreeing with a pretty vanilla opinion
in the last paragraph that even most Euro pros would agree with?
And until all 14 year Euro pros start agreeing among themselves about
what happened even when they were racing against one another, I don't
see any reason to give any of them special dispensation in their
opinion of what is happening in front of us today, unless they have
their opinion validated over and over in public view. 14 years of
racing brings a unique perspective, but also one that may be unduly
influenced by their own experiences as well.
I also didn't give Barry Bonds much attention when he spoke on
McGwire, and the man has mucho experience on everything except the
coming clean part.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
Scott
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:24:11 -0700 (PDT), Scott
>
just shut up. geez, don't you understand smack talk at all?
A. Dumas Fred
> I got an interesting perspective on the outcome of Paris-Roubaix from
> a retired Belgian pro, someone who'd won his share of classics...
Jesus fucking christ. Just say who it is already.
Betty Munro
>> I got an interesting perspective on the outcome of Paris-Roubaix from
>> a retired Belgian pro, someone who'd won his share of classics...
A. Dumas Fred wrote:
> Jesus fucking christ. Just say who it is already.
Jesus fucking christ was a (cycling) pro ?
RicodJour
I'm betting it's 50/50 he does.
R
Bart
- Roger De Vlaeminck is a sore soul, self-centered and can't grasp the
difference between pro racing in his time and now.
- Lucien Van Impe always talks rather nonsensical. Even about his own
Tour victory, he still doesn't understand his DS played it the right
way then. oh yes, last year Cancellara was his pick for the Tour.
- .....
So , with my annual xxxx junk miles, let me just say this: The QS team
is meant to be built around Boonen, but failed in his races. Being
(almost) alone as a favorite in a large group then, is a recepy for
disaster in PR. You know they will smoke you out, and you will be
locked out of the race.
So Boonen's idea was valid: not being caught behind the facts, but
make sure that a break -with the strongest men- takes off, and
eliminate majority power.
Of course, the way he did it is debatable. That he didn't succeed
maybe shows he lacked it that day. A top Boonen would achieve making
that selection. Last year he did that, with 5-6 attacks.
And about last year... all that crashing wasn't his *luck*. Where
Hushovd missed that turn for example... I've never seen them ride so
fast there.