Just a data point, nothing more
Mike Jacoubowsky
heading home. They started talking about Lance; their son (looked about 20)
is a big fan and the dad knows everything about him backward & forward. We
spoke briefly of the substantial disconnect between the French press and the
public, but also acknowledged that the best thing Lance ever, in terms of
assuring a (relatively) positive legacy in France, was his "heroic" loss in
2009.
A world that thinks differently than rbr believes they should think. Or says
they think. Who knew.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
ronaldo_jeremiah
-rj
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:725dd854-381e-4196...@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com...
> Just remember, this is a nation that holds Richard Virenque in esteem.
>
> -rj
Believe it or not, I understand that. Virenque is their "everyman" who has
failed in a big way, and brought himself back up. They worship that sort of
thing. The press is all about individual epic battles, against the elements,
against another individual, against ones own personal demons.
I've written previously of how I stumbled across the hotel complex where the
teams were staying in Bourg en Bresse some years ago. A pretty big crowd was
gathering outside, waiting for riders to come out and sign autographs. Few
did. But the crowd waited. For whom, I had no idea. And then Virenque
emerges. You have no idea how he can work an audience. He kisses the women,
he poses with their babies for photos, he engages in friendly conversation,
he smiles. In short, he is charismatic beyond belief in such situations.
I cannot think of an American parallel.
ronaldo_jeremiah
wrote:
>You have no idea how he can work an audience. He kisses the women,
> he poses with their babies for photos, he engages in friendly conversation,
> he smiles. In short, he is charismatic beyond belief in such situations.
>
> I cannot think of an American parallel.
Dumbass -
Bill Clinton.
-rj
Mike Jacoubowsky
=====
Dumbass -
Bill Clinton.
-rj
=====
Seriously? I'm not so sure. I don't think Clinton hit the bottom quite so
hard. Even at its worst, he still seemed to be made of teflon. He can only
wish that she had been (since teflon doesn't hold stains).
Steven Bornfeld
> Just had a family from Toulouse (France) come in to look at bikes before
> heading home. They started talking about Lance; their son (looked about
> 20) is a big fan and the dad knows everything about him backward &
> forward. We spoke briefly of the substantial disconnect between the
> French press and the public, but also acknowledged that the best thing
> Lance ever, in terms of assuring a (relatively) positive legacy in
> France, was his "heroic" loss in 2009.
I've heard about the idea of the French love of the "heroic loser"--why
they so loved Poulidor. But I guess he was also doubtless more lovable
than Anquetil.
Steve
ronaldo_jeremiah
wrote:
> Seriously?
Yes, seriously. Your analysis of Virenque also matches a third of
American politicians and a significant portion of mafia bosses.
A culture that reveres sociopathic cheats should be ashamed of
itself. Sadly, that describes most cultures.
-rj
Fred on a stick
> A world that thinks differently than rbr believes they should think. Or
> says they think.
Dumbass,
When I'm in France I say things I think will make the people I'm
casually talking with feel good, too. Why would I want to pick a fight
with store keepers?
Mike Jacoubowsky
On Aug 21, 6:47 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> Seriously?
=======
Yes, seriously. Your analysis of Virenque also matches a third of
American politicians and a significant portion of mafia bosses.
A culture that reveres sociopathic cheats should be ashamed of
itself. Sadly, that describes most cultures.
-rj
=======
I don't see it, especially with the mafia boss analogy. Those guys
didn't hit rock bottom. They got caught, that's all. If they served
time, that gave them credibility.
Virenque is more the equivalent of John Edwards or Gary Hart
resurrecting themselves in a big way. I don't think a third of American
politicians could pull that off. It's the resurrection that I'm focusing
on, not the corruption itself.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:i4pvqh$s4k$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Picking a fight? Them with me? Kinda backwards! They were pro-Lance, I
was the skeptic. I was going to bring up the changing views of Lance in
the US, but that's not something they wanted to hear anything about.
Very nice people, by the way. In the end, I gave the son a photo I took
of Lance during the St Etienne time trial (2005).
DirtRoadie
wrote:
> A world that thinks differently than rbr believes they should think. Or says
> they think. Who knew.
Whether it is RBR or the world in general, there is a huge "Boxer"
factor*.
Be it religious "faith" or some other adopted perspective. And every
individual espousing beliefs or bias in this manner will
wholeheartedly assert "It's not just faith, it's the truth."
I just dealt with this on a scale far exceeding any piddly RBR
bickering.
One of the 10 aid workers killed in Afghanistan a bit over two weeks
ago was a close personal friend. He had NO religious or political
agenda whatsoever, just a willingness and desire to do good things for
people who could benefit from his help. His killing was justified by
his killer's "faith" that there was a religious motive.
DR
*Simon & Garfunkel -"The Boxer" - "...Still a man hears what he wants
to hear and disregards the rest."
H. Fred Kveck
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
> "ronaldo_jeremiah" <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:940e5429-3027-4d74...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 21, 5:50 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
> >You have no idea how he can work an audience. He kisses the women,
> > he poses with their babies for photos, he engages in friendly
> > conversation,
> > he smiles. In short, he is charismatic beyond belief in such situations.
> >
> > I cannot think of an American parallel.
>
> =====
> Dumbass -
>
> Bill Clinton.
>
> -rj
> =====
>
> Seriously? I'm not so sure. I don't think Clinton hit the bottom quite so
> hard. Even at its worst, he still seemed to be made of teflon. He can only
> wish that she had been (since teflon doesn't hold stains).
You know that the entire time the Republicans in Congress were busy tut-tutting
about that and impeaching him, Clinton's poll numbers were still sky high. Like 66%
or so. So, while I agree with you that he never "really hit bottom," it's really only
a matter of perspective. Yes, that was a seriously embarassing episode but it didn't
seem to really make much of difference to how the public perceived him. But I'll
still agree with RJ that he's a good parallel.
Steve Freides
> Just remember, this is a nation that holds Richard Virenque in esteem.
>
> -rj
And we are a nation that elected W twice. I think that means they're
_way_ better than us.
-S-
Steven Bornfeld
> to hear and disregards the rest."
So sorry to hear this.
Steve
Michael Press
<725dd854-381e-4196...@x42g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just remember, this is a nation that holds Richard Virenque in esteem.
and François-Marie Arouet aka Voltaire.
One day Voltaire was feeling a bit peaked and remained
in bed. A physician stopped by to see him. In fact
Voltair was sick. Not to put to fine a point on it, but
there was a priest there too. The priest says "Francois,
renounce the devil." Voltaire says "I am too old to be
making new enemies."
--
Michael Press
H. Fred Kveck
DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2:31 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
> > A world that thinks differently than rbr believes they should think. Or says
> > they think. Who knew.
>
> Whether it is RBR or the world in general, there is a huge "Boxer"
> factor*.
> Be it religious "faith" or some other adopted perspective. And every
> individual espousing beliefs or bias in this manner will
> wholeheartedly assert "It's not just faith, it's the truth."
It certainly makes life seem easier for those kinds of people. It saves you the
time and trouble spent looking at other perspectives.
> I just dealt with this on a scale far exceeding any piddly RBR
> bickering.
> One of the 10 aid workers killed in Afghanistan a bit over two weeks
> ago was a close personal friend. He had NO religious or political
> agenda whatsoever, just a willingness and desire to do good things for
> people who could benefit from his help. His killing was justified by
> his killer's "faith" that there was a religious motive.
Shit, I'm sorry to read that. It's really unfortunate that a person whom was so
certain of their "rightness" was so willing to kill to prove it. That, sadly, makes
it hard for others that think the way your friend did be willing to go do what they
know is right: helping others.
Mike Jacoubowsky
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
"DirtRoadie" <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4db0f1f4-596d-456e...@l20g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Fred on a stick
>> When I'm in France I say things I think will make the people I'm
>> casually talking with feel good, too. Why would I want to pick a fight
>> with store keepers?
>
> Picking a fight? Them with me? Kinda backwards! They were pro-Lance, I
> was the skeptic.
Dumbass,
Did they know you were a skeptic before they offered their opinion?
Mike Jacoubowsky
No. But I don't think they could fake it (enthusiasm for Lance) any
better than Lafferty could. I don't think it likely I misread them.
RobertH
> One of the 10 aid workers killed in Afghanistan a bit over two weeks
> ago was a close personal friend. He had NO religious or political
> agenda whatsoever, just a willingness and desire to do good things for
> people who could benefit from his help. ...
Sorry for your loss DR.
It's good to know there are people like that your friend out there.
Fred Flintstein
> Virenque is more the equivalent of John Edwards or Gary Hart
> resurrecting themselves in a big way. I don't think a third of American
> politicians could pull that off. It's the resurrection that I'm focusing
> on, not the corruption itself.
The news that an athlete dopes is much more expected than
the news that someone thinks an affair wouldn't damage
their chances of winning the presidency. I think the US
is unusual in our lack of acceptance of proper
"preparation".
Fred Flintstein
Mr. Slate
We didn't elect him twice, he stole it both times. This is well documented.
Steve Freides
It doesn't matter - our bad, however we allowed him running the country
to happen.
-S-
Fred on a stick
> No. But I don't think they could fake it (enthusiasm for Lance) any
> better than Lafferty could. I don't think it likely I misread them.
Mike Jacoubowsky
In all seriousness, if this is really being questioned, I think a lot of
the subtleties that are required to adequately fake a viewpoint go out
the window when there are language issues.
I know it goes against rbr mentality (there *must* be a better word!) to
believe that the entire world isn't against Lance Armstrong, and that,
in particular, the French people. Dang, I sure have met a lot of people
faking it. I've met the opposite as well, of course. "You're from
America? Do you really believe Lance doesn't cheat?" I tell them I have
no way of knowing one way or another, but that doping seems systemic in
the sport. Yeah, it's a cop-out answer, but it helps me to figure out
where they're coming from. If they want a substantial, non-Lafferty type
of conversation, I'm all-in. They might learn something and I might
learn something. And for the most part, people are curious, they may
have their beliefs but they are still interested in not only what you
think but why. As it should be.
ronaldo_jeremiah
wrote:
> "You're from
> America? Do you really believe Lance doesn't cheat?" I tell them I have
> no way of knowing one way or another
That's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who follows this half as closely
as we dumbasses in rbr do has PLENTY of information to reach an
informed opinion on this matter.
-rj
Beloved Fred No. 1
>> And we are a nation that elected W twice. I think that means they're
>> _way_ better than us.
Mr. Slate wrote:
> We didn't elect him twice, he stole it both times. This is well documented.
Hail to the thief.
Beloved Fred No. 1
>> Virenque is more the equivalent of John Edwards or Gary Hart
>> resurrecting themselves in a big way. I don't think a third of
>> American politicians could pull that off. It's the resurrection that
>> I'm focusing on, not the corruption itself.
Fred Flintstein wrote:
> The news that an athlete dopes is much more expected than
> the news that someone thinks an affair wouldn't damage
> their chances of winning the presidency. I think the US
> is unusual in our lack of acceptance of proper
> "preparation".
Shirley we would all be terribly shocked to hear he doped as preparation
for (or recovery from) the affair.
Magilla Gorilla
> Just had a family from Toulouse (France) come in to look at bikes before
> heading home. They started talking about Lance; their son (looked about 20)
> is a big fan and the dad knows everything about him backward & forward. We
> spoke briefly of the substantial disconnect between the French press and the
> public, but also acknowledged that the best thing Lance ever, in terms of
> assuring a (relatively) positive legacy in France, was his "heroic" loss in
> 2009.
>
> A world that thinks differently than rbr believes they should think. Or says
> they think. Who knew.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
The French apparently still enjoyed being defeated. Just ask the Nazis.
Magilla