Q for the "Get Lance" Camp
Brad Anders
do you believe that Lance has used dope and other illegal methods in a
manner that gave him unfair advantage over the other top contenders
he's been up against? From the evidence I've seen, his competition was
juicing themselves to the gills, with everyone knowing the limits of
what they could get away with. In fact, because many were caught, you
could make the arguement that they were the ones who were trying to
get an unfair advantage, because they pushed it too far.
IMO, what we're seeing at the top is a fair fight, albeit an enhanced
one. I haven't seen evidence that Lance was doing anything his
competition wasn't.
Brad Anders
B. Lafferty
Brad Anders
So, you have a different motivation to see Lance nailed. What is it?
BTW, anyone who would rather address my question instead of following
this tangent, please do so.
Brad Anders
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
@Anders: Laff@me's had an obsession w/ LANCE for well over a decade.
Fucking weirdo.
DA74
Bradster,
Here's the dealio: Lance is genetically superior, harder working,
smarter and craftier than his competition. Take away all the alleged
dope and he still comes out on top. But I'd argue that things aren't
exactly level on the playing field. The teams / riders with the most
money obviously are going to have better doping programs. Lower level
teams / riders with less money have to resort to less effective or
more risky programs.
Not all these guys can afford a Ferrari. Tyler's doping program was
pretty expensive from what I recall of his famous hotel fax. Floyd
says he spent $90k one year on his program. The guys without the money
are stuck trying to jab some internet obtained epo into their asses
between tests to compete. They don't have access to the auto-
transfusions that the big boys use. I think these are the guys getting
caught, not because they "pushed it" but because they were just trying
to compete.
-DA74
Brad Anders
I think what you say about the disparity in money is true, but I think
it actually plays into my comments. Teams that have more money to
spend on drugs will do so, but in doing so, they're probably opening
themselves up to more exposure and potential to get nailed. More
people involved, more paper, more physical evidence, etc. It's
ultimately self-limiting. And, judging from the people who have been
nailed in the past 10 years, plenty were from those teams that had the
big bucks. So, I'm not sure the ones getting caught are just the small
fry trying to "push it", looks like it's more across the board, with
different factors leading to people getting caught.
Brad Anders
Amit Ghosh
> @Anders: Laff@me's had an obsession w/ LANCE for well over a decade.
> Fucking weirdo.
dumbass,
if this becomes a criminal case will all the US pros that got caught
with sudafed go to jail too ?
will there be a navigators reunion in the court room ?
will someone start a prison cycling league ?
Brad Anders
> will someone start a prison cycling league ?
Opens the possiblity for Dennis Christopher to star as a fatty prison
masters in "The Longest Kilometer". I'd get that on Blu-Ray.
GoneBeforeMyTime
> Honest question for those who are just dying to see Lance get nailed:
> IMO, what we're seeing at the top is a fair fight,
> Brad Anders
Those who want to see Lance nailed are a smaller crowd here I think, but I
think most just want to know the truth, while others just like a good
scandal. I'm not sure about the fair fight argument, as to what is fair, but
Lance was a role model to millions and led the way for a decade or more now.
It's a very big deal, like Tiger Woods, if he's proven to be rotten,
although much different problems here, the results are the same in the sense
it's going to be devastating to millions of fans and kids who saw him as a
role model. Also his cancer foundation followers, Livestrong, everyone who
saw him as the only clean and shining icon in a sea of dopers are going to
be devastated. Why I understand the doping culture, I personally still want
to know if Lance doped, or was it truly the Science of Lance that prevailed
all those years.
DA74
Looking back at some of the guys who got caught you've got a point.
There were some big fish in there (i.e. DiLuca) - I guess I'm
referring to the more recent cases that trickle in mostly unnoticed
because they're not important riders and it's usually epo (Giunti, De
Bonis, Larpe, Axelsson etc.).
But your comment on the self-limiting aspect of the game ring true.
All in all I would definitely say it's a level playing field in the
sense that to play at the top you've got to dope but the avenues, just
as in life, vary depending on how much $$ is at one's disposal.
-DA74
cur...@the-md-russells.org
Dunno, but I would start by getting Bill Clinton as an expert witness
on the whole 'lying under oath' thing. He beat it, beat it like a rug.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<davida...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But I'd argue that things aren't
>exactly level on the playing field. The teams / riders with the most
>money obviously are going to have better doping programs. Lower level
>teams / riders with less money have to resort to less effective or
>more risky programs.
That's why they are stepping stones. They discussed the same issue
with team buses during the Giro earlier. The hotels where they stay.
The number of gofers to keep the cyclists focused on riding (OK, sure,
that means that Stephen Roche really, really should have been at the
start line). Having to wear godawful ugly as sin uniforms. OK, maybe
that's more a taste thing. Anyway, you don't ride for Colnago to win,
you ride for Colnago to get noticed.
Betty Munro
> will someone start a prison cycling league ?
You could call the team the chain gang. I'm sure they could find a
presenting sponsor.
Fred Flintstein
Remember that LANCE had an agreement with Dr Juice to not work
for other bike racers. Restricting his potential clients probably
cost LANCE a chunk of change.
Of course, LANCE's competition was doping also. But since LANCE
had an exclusive, highly regarded medical adviser it is easy to
make a case that he was doing things that others weren't.
Fred Flintstein
Betty Munro
> Remember that LANCE had an agreement with Dr Juice to not work
> for other bike racers. Restricting his potential clients probably
> cost LANCE a chunk of change.
>
> Of course, LANCE's competition was doping also. But since LANCE
> had an exclusive, highly regarded medical adviser it is easy to
> make a case that he was doing things that others weren't.
The other riders should have sued him for restriction of trade. I'm sure
Lafferty would have represented them.
B. Lafferty
Boop-Oop-A-Doop!
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
I'd add genetics as a fixed determinant and willpower as a variable
determinant to your equation.
thanks,
Fred. presented by Gringioni.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
If someone was able to get Amgen to sponsor a big, professional race,
anything is possible.
Frederick the Great
"GoneBeforeMyTime" <Fa...@EuroForums.com> wrote:
> Brad Anders wrote:
> > Honest question for those who are just dying to see Lance get nailed:
> Snip..
> > IMO, what we're seeing at the top is a fair fight,
> Snip..
>
> > Brad Anders
>
> Those who want to see Lance nailed are a smaller crowd here I think,
But dedicated.
> but I
> think most just want to know the truth,
I cannot handle the truth.
> while others just like a good
> scandal.
See Group I.
> I'm not sure about the fair fight argument, as to what is fair, but
> Lance was a role model to millions
Role models again.
> and led the way for a decade or more now.
> It's a very big deal, like Tiger Woods, if he's proven to be rotten,
> although much different problems here, the results are the same in the sense
> it's going to be devastating to millions of fans and kids who saw him as a
> role model.
Little Joey OD's on Oaty Sugar Bombs.
> Also his cancer foundation followers, Livestrong, everyone who
> saw him as the only clean and shining icon in a sea of dopers are going to
> be devastated.
[Sniff!]
> Why I understand the doping culture, I personally still want
> to know if Lance doped, or was it truly the Science of Lance that prevailed
> all those years.
You still believe, God love you.
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
Fred Flintstein <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
A big advantage of the arrangement for LANCE is
that Dr. Fiat was not vulnerable through other
patients because there were none.
--
Old Fritz
Michael Press
"B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
Rope a dope.
--
Michael Press
z, fred
Dumbass,
Ferrari could have/be helping athletes in other sports.
Anton Berlin
That's a good point. I was offered (black market) epo in the early
years and turned it down.
DA74
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pussy
Frederick the Great
"z, fred" <No...@not.ca> wrote:
The other sports know how to keep there mouths shut.
--
Old Fritz
z, fred
That's not what you said in you're previous post.
Frederick the Great
wrote:
No, it is not. I was thinking only of bicycling.
--
Old Fritz
z, fred
I can't help you there.
z, fred
You did not write "cyclists", you wrote "patients".
Betty Munro
> Rope a dope.
Foreman would make a great FM. Someone should give him a bike.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<Fa...@EuroForums.com> wrote:
>Lance was a role model to millions and led the way for a decade or more now.
>It's a very big deal, like Tiger Woods, if he's proven to be rotten,
Way different. LA has had blemishes, comments and a bad attitude about
a lot of things for a long time. The press has not been giving him a
free ride. If he has been leading a double life, it was right out in
the open for people to make their own judgment.
Woods had a double life where one was kept in the dark by a compliant
sports press. LA marketed wins while Woods marketed a whole wholesome
life stye. LA still has the wins, so far...
Anton Berlin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nah - just ethical and intelligent. Dutch riders were dropping like
flies. 2 of 4 of the 100k tt died in their sleep within a year of
winning the WC. We all knew it was EPO.
Frederick the Great
wrote:
I know. I agree with you when you say
"That's not what you said in you're previous post.".
--
Old Fritz