Group etiquette overtaking slower riders
Mike Jacoubowsky
motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
road.
I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
folk should get off the friggin road)?
Thanks-
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Brad Anders
wrote:
Your group rides are too big, which is a problem that's gone on for
years in the Bay Area. You've got the solution in your email - break
all group rides into sets of 25 riders or less, and get a person to
"own" each set. IMO, even 25 is too large in many cases.
Brad Anders
Magilla Gorilla
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. What you need is a few
lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
professional.
Tell the slower guys to take some EPO and then go to the front and ram the
goddamn pedals.
Thanks,
Magilla
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:3ae454e7-395b-40ac...@u5g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 13, 1:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving
> pack
> overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job
> of
> giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
> around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost,
> and
> the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off
> the
> road.
>
> I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's
> the
> really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
> out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that
> slower
> folk should get off the friggin road)?
>
> Thanks-
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
=======
Your group rides are too big, which is a problem that's gone on for
years in the Bay Area. You've got the solution in your email - break
all group rides into sets of 25 riders or less, and get a person to
"own" each set. IMO, even 25 is too large in many cases.
Brad Anders
=======
Brad: I agree. My Tuesday/Thursday-morning ride is a group of 4-12 people,
and works out fine. But for these larger rides, people see them as an
opportunity to "race" and it gets pretty wild. The more the merrier is the
way they look at it, because it comes closer to real racing conditions. On
open roads, unfortunately.
It's difficult because some of these rides are "leaderless", traditional
rides that have gone on since the 70s in some cases. Who in their right mind
would want to take responsibility for a ride like that, with 25-75 people in
it, from no club in particular?
Even for my own ride we sometimes have issues for the final sprint, a
slightly-twisty descent then climb that sometimes will be populated with
joggers or people with kids in strollers, such that it can resemble the
scene from Battleship Potemkin. When I see that I call it off rather than
try and thread my way through. Testosterone is tough to overcome though,
when you see that opening that you know you can get through.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Brad Anders
wrote:
> Brad: I agree. My Tuesday/Thursday-morning ride is a group of 4-12 people,
> and works out fine. But for these larger rides, people see them as an
> opportunity to "race" and it gets pretty wild. The more the merrier is the
> way they look at it, because it comes closer to real racing conditions. On
> open roads, unfortunately.
Well, you bring up another problem, which is that too many squids
pretend these rides really are races, with full-on bragging rights for
sprint points and climbs. 90% of the guys who ride this way race
infrequently or not at all. My suggestion here is that if you're
actually serious about racing, organize your own small group rides,
where the focus is on specifc training goals and not on which asshole
is first at the Portola Valley sprint.
I don't know what it's like these days, but the only group ride I ever
really got a hell of a lot of fitness from was the WW's Egan School
ride in the '90's. Group size then was typically under 30, but that
was just until we got to the first hill in LAH, where we would go flat-
out and rip the group down to 10-15 riders who would then proceed to
have a real race simulation, with a group small enough to keep it
under control. If 50-70 riders can hang on to a group ride for the
whole duration, I suspect the ride isn't hard enough to be giving the
better riders much of a training session.
> It's difficult because some of these rides are "leaderless", traditional
> rides that have gone on since the 70s in some cases. Who in their right mind
> would want to take responsibility for a ride like that, with 25-75 people in
> it, from no club in particular?
Nobody. And nobody should. Just advocate going to alternative, smaller
rides, with focused goals and some reasonable rules about behavior.
> Even for my own ride we sometimes have issues for the final sprint, a
> slightly-twisty descent then climb that sometimes will be populated with
> joggers or people with kids in strollers, such that it can resemble the
> scene from Battleship Potemkin. When I see that I call it off rather than
> try and thread my way through. Testosterone is tough to overcome though,
> when you see that opening that you know you can get through.
Your solution here is pretty clear - either move where you do the
sprint finish, or eliminate the sprint finish completely. IMO, you'll
get better results in improving your sprint if you do a dedicated
workout with a small group, and do it in a location where it's
reasonably safe. Pete Tapscott got us to start doing that back in the
'90's and it completely transformed the sprint capabilities of all who
participated.
Brad Anders
Kurgan Gringioni
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
news:DZSdnYrNWYlQHhPR...@earthlink.com...
: Any ride leaders
: out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that
slower
: folk should get off the friggin road)?
Dumbass -
My solution is: run the slower riders off the road.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:i6m9r1$7bt$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The worst is when you don't succeed at running them off the road, and they
seize the opportunity to draft off you and you can't shake 'em loose.
Happened to me twice yesterday, and each guy must have hung on for at least
5 miles (or it should seemed like it was 5 miles anyway). Not normally what
happens. So a bit later I'm climbing Redwood Gulch, a nasty piece of
climbing, and very slowly reel in this guy out in front of me. And then it
happens again!!! The guy claws his way back up to me, obviously without any
help of a draft (15%+ grade at that point, and I'm sure as heck not going
fast enough to create a draft). When it finally eases off, the guy tells me
he was beat but then, after I passed, he saw the "Never give up, Never
surrender" written across my jersey pockets, and that inspired him.
The last thing I want is to inspire more people to beat up on me. Maybe I
need a demotivational slogan back there.
DirtRoadie
wrote:
> We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
> overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
> giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
> around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
> the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
> road.
>
> I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
> really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
> out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
> folk should get off the friggin road)?
Aside from the aspect of courtesy for the slower riders, there is just
the general issue of safety. Under a nearly identical scenario I was
part of group (~20) that was flying along on a rural road on "trash
pickup" day where an occasional unretrieved wheeled trash bin still
graced the shoulder (or what amounted to a shoulder) in the evening.
At one point the group came upon one of these and the front of the
group easily avoided it (and there may have been some verbal
communication). I was perhaps mid-pack and had no clue what was
coming. I was lucky to merely get the startling "whoosh" as I cleared
the bin bu a foot or so. But I knew exactly what would happen next and
it did - a single loud thud followed by all sorts of nasty sounds of
metal and carbon, bodies and pavement. Three riders were quite badly
hurt, bikes essentially destroyed.
I don't have an answer to the problem aside from noting that smaller
groups are a plus and having a group that where everyone rides
together regularly and knows one another usually makes for better
cohesiveness and communication. Even if they can't be excluded, it can
be helpful to know who the flaky riders and/or the idiosyncrasies of
even the good riders. "Good" in this case meaning well behaved.
There's nothing much better than a good group ride, or much worse than
a bad one. What are good and bad? Not always readily definable, but
you know them when they happen.
DR
DirtRoadie
wrote:
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <soulinthemach...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> The last thing I want is to inspire more people to beat up on me. Maybe I
> need a demotivational slogan back there.
http://www.labelmaster.com/images/products/400x400/H-41318.jpg
DR
Fredmaster of Brainerd
wrote:
> We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
> overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
> giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
> around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
> the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
> road.
>
> I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
> really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
> out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
> folk should get off the friggin road)?
A ride that big should start early enough and ride on roads
empty enough that road hazards - slower riders, parked cars,
garbage bins as DR mentioned, cross traffic, and so on -
are virtually non existent.
This becomes harder and harder to do as creeping
suburbanization overtakes everything and rides also
get too big for their own good. I suspect it's essentially
impossible in most Bay Area ride routes at this point,
at least on the interior side of the mountains (for ex,
on the northeast side of the Santa Cruz mountains).
The other thing is that a giant pack at moderately high
speed is both a pain in the ass and not much training
value. The Santa Cruz Saturday ride, which is the only
really huge training ride I ever went on, had the advantages
of going through near-farmland (since it was farther from
the dense Bay Area) and also alternating between
fairly mellow and hard-enough-to-splinter. That keeps
the pack a little safer.
Fredmaster Ben
JQ
>
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
to give room to the slower rider and for the group to announce from
front to rear slow rider on right. This way all riders know to give
room just as when there is no more shoulder so all riders know to move over.
Ride fast, ride hard, ride for health and enjoyment...
JQ
Dancing on the edge
Ben Trovato
> lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
> professional.
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/grand-prix-cycliste-de-quebec-upt/photos/140302
Claus Assmann
> The last thing I want is to inspire more people to beat up on me. Maybe I
Why? It makes you go faster, doesn't it?
I always hope for someone who can ride at least as fast (however
slow that might be) as I am, because that's rather motivating to
keep up with or drop that person.
Frederick the Great
<6edf38cf-4817-4d43...@a19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
Ben Trovato <benn.t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Would you pull the thorn out of my foot?
--
Old Fritz
Frederick the Great
Magilla Gorilla <m.go...@sandiegozoo.org> wrote:
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> > We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> > motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> > Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
> > overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
> > giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
> > around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
> > the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
> > road.
> >
> > I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
> > really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
> > out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
> > folk should get off the friggin road)?
>
> A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. What you need is a few
> lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
> professional.
>
> Tell the slower guys to take some EPO and then go to the front and ram the
> goddamn pedals.
Now you're talking.
--
Old Fritz
H. Fred Kveck
Ben Trovato <benn.t...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I notice more than a few smirks in that shot. Nice one.
DirtRoadie
> In article
> <6edf38cf-4817-4d43-b8c6-d2f097dfa...@a19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> Ben Trovato <benn.trov...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > A little dischord is always a good thing for cycling. What you need is a few
> > > lawsuits and a fight every now and then if you really want it to be
> > > professional.
>
>
> Would you pull the thorn out of my foot?
At least his hands are still on the bars.
DR
Fred Flintstein
> My suggestion here is that if you're
> actually serious about racing, organize your own small group rides,
> where the focus is on specifc training goals and not on which asshole
> is first at the Portola Valley sprint.
This is the correct answer.
When I was in college there was a group ride out to a weekly club
time trial. As the urban area grew and surrounding farmland turned
into subdivisions, traffic conflicts increased. At one point I
pondered the risk benefit ratio of the group ride and began riding
out and returning from the TT location alone or with a few friends.
Fred Flintstein
--D-y
Lack of plain communication. The first couple of riders need to
gesture broadly, not just "avoid" and maybe mutter something.
Plain and simple: It's their fault, and the fault of other riders
further back in the group, that there was a crash.
I've seen some real assholes lead group rides, jerks who deliberately
graze obstacles and potholes and think it's funny (just to illustrate
the extreme end of the spectrum here).
Everybody in the group has responsibility for everyone else. Some
think this is a pussy attitude. Can I get a witness?
There's a ride or two around here known for crashes. Duh. Not as bad
as the Houston Death Ride where they didn't stop for lights or stop
signs. I understand that ride died out.
Other local rides are known for a much, much lower crash-per-mile
ratio. It's not an accident <g>. More of an IQ test, IMHO.
There's one that is officially a "recovery ride" on Sunday, that
follows a Saturday ride known to go fairly long (80 miles or so) at a
hard pace for the riding members. The Sunday ride tends to roll out at
conversational pace, make a store stop about halfway through the 50
mile distance, and have "determinations" after a good long warmup.
There are problems keeping both rides organized because some people
just can't get in the boat and row.
When I was younger and fit, I rode a few of the hammer-dude rides.
Some people think they're training on those rides, I guess.
It's really just hammering, often. Fun, maybe, but not smart training
(opinion stated as such), nothing like doing structured intervals or
group sprint repeats.
--D-y
Marco
> We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> Something that recently came up is that, when a very large fast-moving pack
> overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the pack does a great job of
> giving the slower folk room, but by the time the rear of the group comes
> around, the message (hand signals, "rider up", whatever) has been lost, and
> the slower folk sometimes get clipped or feel like they're being run off the
> road.
>
> I'd guess that a pack of 25 riders or less doesn't have this issue; it's the
> really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any ride leaders
> out there with solutions to this (other than the r.b.r-standard that slower
> folk should get off the friggin road)?
Here's what happened on one of our local group rides recently:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRkJPHWPz4
Although it's not exactly your scenario, it shows what can happen.
None of the injuries were too serious ....this time.
Ronko
8c166d...@m16g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>, DirtR...@aol.com
says...
probability of one or two cyclist inexperienced with group rides, which is a
safety factor in itself. Secondly a small group, say no more than 6 riders,
probably know each other and can much more easily avoid the stray
garbage can, slow rider being overpassed, etc.
--D-y
Looks like someone sat up or maybe even hit the brakes? I didn't hear
any verbals or see the rider who was going slow raise his hand up high
in warning.
--D-y
Mike Jacoubowsky
on a regular basis, can really get behind it in a serious way. Thank you all
for the thoughtful responses, and reminding me why I don't do large group
rides anymore.
For the slower folk complaining about being scared when overtaken by a large
group of cyclists, I'm suggesting they use ding-ding bells. I'm thinking the
sound carries a fair amount and might warn people who can't see them (before
it's too late) that there's something ahead to watch out for.
In the past, I've always assumed the ding-ding bells were to let others know
you were passing them, but I'm seeing things a bit differently now. It's
that last half of a large group that you have to be scared of.
derf...@gmail.com
>
> Here's what happened on one of our local group rides recently:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPRkJPHWPz4
The Cliff Bar wrapper blowing away is awesome. That's like something
out of a Euro art film.
--D-y
wrote:
> Impressive that rbr, when asked a serious question that many of us deal with
> on a regular basis, can really get behind it in a serious way. Thank you all
> for the thoughtful responses, and reminding me why I don't do large group
> rides anymore.
>
> For the slower folk complaining about being scared when overtaken by a large
> group of cyclists, I'm suggesting they use ding-ding bells. I'm thinking the
> sound carries a fair amount and might warn people who can't see them (before
> it's too late) that there's something ahead to watch out for.
>
> In the past, I've always assumed the ding-ding bells were to let others know
> you were passing them, but I'm seeing things a bit differently now. It's
> that last half of a large group that you have to be scared of.
People in front need to point (up high) and vocalize-- "Riders Up!!!"
and swing wide in a safe manner while calling out "Passing on your
left, please!.
The people in the back need to keep their heads up and ears open, and
pass other riders with plenty of room to spare, not treat them like
pylons.
Ride like a grown-up, including taking responsibility for others'
safety.
--D-y
Fred
You should find whichever dumbass who was the first person to pass
that guy on the right, and whoop his ass. If everyone had passed on
the left, you probably wouldn't have crashed. At least the guy you
ran into tried to do the right thing by holding his line while
everyone swarmed around him.
Fred
DirtRoadie
Nothing you have said is inaccurate but it does not fully reflect on
"real world" group riding. Verbal commands, warnings, instructions,
etc. often do not reach the back of the group or do not get there in a
timely manner. At 25-30 mph a rider at the front may not even be
heard by a rider just a few places back. At best that may mean
several relays of info to reach the back. A second at 30 mph is 44
feet. At worst the riders in the back NEVER get the info. Happens all
the time. We all have our vision of what we want other riders to do
and how the group should "behave." And I don't think any halfway
serious rider wants a fixed-paced, half-assed processional with
somebody, however well intentioned, barking orders (been there, done
that). Part of the enjoyment is the dynamic, the constantly changing
nature of the group, the changes in pace while maintaining flow,
working cooperatively but challenging and pushing each other.
Sometimes its nice to be able to converse with someone you have not
seen since last week.month, sometimes it fun to beat up on them,
knowing full well they are trying to do the same to you (and wishing
them well if they succeed.) It's a group effort, but it's individual
as well.
To my way of thinking (which also fails to take into account the
realities above) every rider needs to be dialed into that fact that
it's a group ride and maintain the mantra "_I_ need to make this a
better GROUP ride." A good ride is safe, it's fun, it's spirited and
it's cooperative and probably competitive. And that is probably about
the proper order of priority.
Maybe that''s what you were saying.
Now how to accomplish this? In my experience It's good to have some
guidance at the beginning of the ride "OK Here's the plan for the
ride..." And of course this is often immediately falls by the
wayside.
But a debriefing AFTER a ride can be very helpful too. This may even
be the following week. "Last week we had an incident where ____
crossed a double yellow line to pass everyone on the ____ descent and
there was an oncoming car. We need to avoid behavior like that both
because it's dangerous and it makes us look bad as a group."
I guess what I am describing is simply reinforcement of those
behaviors (group and individual) we want to perpetuate and
disincentives for those we want to discourage.
Quite frankly I have NO interest whatsoever in riding with a group
that does not have some basic communication mechanism, ideally
before, during and after a ride.
That's my fantasy perfect world and as close-to-perfect-as-I-can-hope-
for group ride.
DR
Brad Anders
accidents on the Palo Alto Noon Ride in the past where a group of 50+
is approaching a 40 mph sprint point, and they overtake a rider.
Anyone who believes that there's any way to control that situation
from the front is kidding themselves. IMO, a group of 50+ going over
30 mph is pretty much unmanageable, and while 99% of the time you get
lucky, it's that 1% that everyone remembers.
Brad Anders
DirtRoadie
To add a simple point. My ideal group size is probably 12 or so.
I have a number of reasons I base this on.
A group of 12 can fly and is large enough so that someone who
primarily wishes to "sit in" can do so. There is likely to be a much
more even division of "work." In too large or small a group the pace
may be much faster (or slower, but probably faster ) than any
individual is really seeking. With the "Goldilocks" group (just right)
an individual can play a signifcant part in defining group pace
without necessarily controlling it. In a smaller group an individual
can control it, sometimes to the detriment of others.
Much bigger and a group becomes a "pack" independent of any of the
individuals involved.
In a group of mostly well matched riders, a dropped rider can often
regain the group.
In a spirited group of 25 it's usually "sayonara."
In a group of 12 it's easy to know who's there. I know I have been
well into rides with much larger groups when I did the "Hey Joe! I
didn't know you were here tonight."
In a large group any individual rider might never see the front for an
entire ride. What fun is that?
Anyhow that's just more of my wishful thinking out loud for the
perfect group in my perfect world.
DR
Frederick the Great
<016c239e-ceb0-482c...@t3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
--D-y <dusto...@mac.com> wrote:
I am that slow rider. One time the lead guy chops
me. Pure nastiness. I knew they were coming, kept
to the right, rode a pure straight line, and he
chops me with a ravine to my right. I blasted him;
and ran him down verbally every time he tried out
anything on me. As the rest of the group pass some
of them apologized for him. I asked why apologize
for a jackass like that. Everybody got an earful
that day.
--
Old Fritz
Steve Freides
> We're seeing an increase in animosity between cyclists and
> motorists/residents in our area, and now, faster cyclists vs slower.
> Something that recently came up is that, when a very large
> fast-moving pack overtakes a slower rider, and the lead part of the
> pack does a great job of giving the slower folk room, but by the time
> the rear of the group comes around, the message (hand signals, "rider
> up", whatever) has been lost, and the slower folk sometimes get
> clipped or feel like they're being run off the road.
>
> it's the really large groups where this is more likely to happen. Any
> ride leaders out there with solutions to this (other than the
> r.b.r-standard that slower folk should get off the friggin road)?
>
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Ride at the front. The group will come together at traffic lights.
After each stop, put the hammer down and let the pace force the big
group into dividing.
If you're not fast enough to be in the front group, then let a gap open
up in front of you - horrors! - and ride at the front of your group, at
least until there's enough daylight between your group and the next, or
until your group is small enough that you don't feel like you have to be
in the front to be safe.
I used to do both of these in the same ride, where the pace was
typically easy for the first half and then got faster - I'd ride near
the front at the beginning, then just look for a goup of slower rides
with which to finish the ride once the hammerheads started competing for
town signs and/or the terrain got hilly.
-S-
Marco
The guy who made the video sent the link to Clif and they gave him a
case of his favorite flavor. Kind of a rough way to get a free box of
Clif bars.
Marco
> You should find whichever dumbass who was the first person to pass
> that guy on the right, and whoop his ass. If everyone had passed on
> the left, you probably wouldn't have crashed. At least the guy you
> ran into tried to do the right thing by holding his line while
> everyone swarmed around him.
Don't you mean the dumbass(es) who passed on the left? (BTW, that
would include both an Olympian as well as a current pro) Anyway, the
guy who got hit moved completely out of the lane and there should have
been plenty of room to go by him on the right in the correct lane.
(Caveat: I wasn't on the ride but I think the video makes it pretty
clear.)
--D-y
A hand or hands going up along with loud verbals should get to the
back, no problem, if people are paying attention.
Meaning heads up, eyes open, ears open.
This is something that was drilled into me by the Midwest Cat II's and
III's who got me started riding in fast training groups and racing.
I fully realize that many or most riders never get that instruction;
and further, that many don't want to hear anything about "how I ride"
in the first place. Then they crash or cause crashes because they've
never learned to link up with a group.
IME of riding with one particular ride since 1984, which is known for
being a safe group and a good place for newbies to go "learn the
ropes", there has been a fairly small number (compared to all the many
who have come and gone) of newbies who paid attention and learned.
They have medals and memories <g>. Others don't want to hear it and
they go elsewhere, and I'm not saying there haven't been successful
riders in that group by any means. Like I said, I've ridden with the
every-man-for-himself groups and no thanks. Not safe and often
(usually) not the best training, either.
--D-y
--D-y
Looked to me like the guy who slowed did one correct thing and left
room on both sides. I didn't see him lift a hand up; if he was a
member of the group and got dropped when it wound up, he should have
been well aware there would be riders coming up on him fast and he
should have shot a hand up.
It's OK to pass on both sides; the problem is knowing the location of
the obstacle when you can't see through the people in front of you.
"Credentials" don't matter one bit. Taking care of business is what
counts and beginners can learn what to do, and do it, in short order.
A faster group passed my Sunday ride one morning, when we were getting
back close to town. We caught them a light and a few of us tagged on
for awhile, despite a decidedly unfriendly attitude evinced by a few--
like, no one said anything that I heard to the riders in my group as
they went by, and when I engaged one guy in some jocular conversation
at the light, which he seemed to enjoy, the guy next to him made angry
faces at me (no, he really did, so I of course extended the
conversation until the light turned and the temper tantrum guy didn't
like that one bit, either). Wow. "Serious and rude".
Obviously a spread of abilities (speed) in that group, and the front
guys hammered off the stops (not pacing themselves to make the lights
in the first place), then sat up so it was sprint and brake, sprint
and brake in the back. They swerved around minor "road stuff" that was
ridable and led others over some nasty stuff, including a thick steel
plate covering an excavation , with no warnings, that they could have
avoided (as seen from my vantage point about a third of the way from
the back). After a full daily recommended dose, I sat up (after
carefully checking to the side and rear, of course) and went back to
my cool and smooth ride. "Who needs that shit?" I opined and one of my
cohort noted: "There were at least three Cat I's in there".
Wow, Cat I's riding like bad Cat IV's while leading a group ride. And
the funny thing was, the "unfriendlies" were not the fast guys.
Heavy pecking order horseshit, Batman!
--D-y
Brad Anders
I rode at lunch 2X weekly for years in a crit simulation ride with 50+
riders on a fairly safe closed course. One of the guys who was there
nearly every time was a cat 4/5 who had a really bad habit of
completely putting his head down and looking straight at the ground
when the going got hard. A number of us gently and not so gently told
this guy, repeatedly, to keep his head up and not endanger himself and
everyone else. Generally, the guy completely ignored us. This went on
for years, with essentially no improvement.
The ride was eventually forced to move to a much more hairy location,
with considerable traffic. I moved away to Phoenix not long after this
shift. A year or so later, I head that there had been an accident
where two guys were dropped, and the following guy went straight into
the back of a parked semi, after the front guy juked it. The guy ended
up paralyzed. Yeah, it was the guy we'd warned so many times.
I tell this story because the lesson I learned was that when you're
giving advice, or when you're on the receiving end of advice, there
has to be actual communication happening. I the case I cited, this guy
wasn't interested in hearing what we had to say, I'm sure he thought
we were nuts and just bugging him. Maybe he thought he was a lot more
experienced and knew what he was doing. Maybe he thought that since
nothing had ever happened before, nothing ever would happen. I'm not
sure what we could have done to have gotten through to him.
Brad Anders
--D-y
Even though he brought it on himself in a determined way, what a
shame. What a waste.
A guy here in Austin who wasn't one bit prepared to race in a group
did so and crashed, hit his head and died.
I've raced in an extremely limited manner over the last several years;
I'm not in the crowd anymore but I still felt guilty that I and no one
else took this guy out and showed him the ropes. He was just bouncing
all over the place in the pack, from what I was told. He was said to
be a good guy, not one of the obnoxious know-it-alls but he just
didn't know what to do and he was scared.
Hell, someone should have shouted him out of there, or even grabbed
his jersey, whatever. Easy to say in hindsight but it should have
happened anyhow.
But you're right, some people don't want to hear it. It's a lack of
respect for others; also, some people have their brains in their asses
and bad things happen when they sit on a bike seat and the circulation
gets cut off.
--D-y
Kurgan Gringioni
"Marco" <marco.f...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e8492daf-4717-40c4...@z30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Fred wrote:
> You should find whichever dumbass who was the first person to pass
> that guy on the right, and whoop his ass. If everyone had passed on
> the left, you probably wouldn't have crashed. At least the guy you
> ran into tried to do the right thing by holding his line while
> everyone swarmed around him.
:: Don't you mean the dumbass(es) who passed on the left? (BTW, that
:: would include both an Olympian as well as a current pro)
Dumbass -
I've seen an 'Olympian' chop another rider into incoming traffic during a
training ride sprint with a right to left crosswind.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Amit Ghosh
> People in front need to point (up high) and vocalize-- "Riders Up!!!"
> and swing wide in a safe manner while calling out "Passing on your
> left, please!.
dumbass,
if i hear people yelling "rider up!" and other types of things like
that i know i am riding with freds. most communication among good
riders is non verbal, either signals or simply body language.
that crash happened for two reasons: one is that the one rider sat up,
the other is that sprinting is gay.
we had a long discussion about this a while ago. but when a ride is
too easy all the "sprinter" goons can hang on and will ride like
idiots and chop people left and right to "win" the sprint, so a good
ride needs to have some hills, because it is just too easy for the
goons to sit in on a big group on the flat.
the case where a fast group takes out a slower rider that isn't part
of the group is inexcusable.
weaker riders in the group are usually problems because they either go
to deep and start to lose control or they are afraid to leave a buffer
when they should because they're not confident they can close the gap
when they want to - don't get me wrong, everyone, even pros have their
limit.
the way to deal with slower riders is to leave them on the front when
they get gapped and wait while they die and then sprint around them
and jump across the gap.
Steven Bornfeld
Abso-freakin'lutely, Reverend!
Steve
>
> There's a ride or two around here known for crashes. Duh. Not as bad
> as the Houston Death Ride where they didn't stop for lights or stop
> signs. I understand that ride died out.
>
> Other local rides are known for a much, much lower crash-per-mile
> ratio. It's not an accident<g>. More of an IQ test, IMHO.
> There's one that is officially a "recovery ride" on Sunday, that
> follows a Saturday ride known to go fairly long (80 miles or so) at a
> hard pace for the riding members. The Sunday ride tends to roll out at
> conversational pace, make a store stop about halfway through the 50
> mile distance, and have "determinations" after a good long warmup.
> There are problems keeping both rides organized because some people
> just can't get in the boat and row.
>
> When I was younger and fit, I rode a few of the hammer-dude rides.
> Some people think they're training on those rides, I guess.
> It's really just hammering, often. Fun, maybe, but not smart training
> (opinion stated as such), nothing like doing structured intervals or
> group sprint repeats.
> --D-y
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
--D-y
> > People in front need to point (up high) and vocalize-- "Riders Up!!!"
> > and swing wide in a safe manner while calling out "Passing on your
> > left, please!.
>
> dumbass,
>
> if i hear people yelling "rider up!" and other types of things like
> that i know i am riding with freds. most communication among good
> riders is non verbal, either signals or simply body language.
That crash was caused, among other reasons, by poor communication,
apparently including an "olympian" (damn, where was Mercury?).
IOW, your "good riders" had a crash because it's not cool to talk in
the pack? Or have a basic respect for other human beings, even if they
can't ride a bicycle as fast as you can? ("What's that fucking fred
doing out here in the way?")
Crashing is fredly. Not communicating is fredly.
Yup, we've had some of the Manly Men get sarcastic when we call "car
back" and the like.
The truth is, they are the ones who are fredly. Freds crash.
I'll grant you may have ridden with freds who communicated verbally,
and some who scream (in a fredly way) at the least provocation.
Doesn't change the fact that, as far as I can see, that accident was
very avoidable and it wasn't avoided. Someone could have been crippled
or killed, let alone the financial waste. A great big screw-up,
frankly.
I call it The Red Badge of Courage: "We're cool". If you're out there
crashing, chances are good you're not, even if your ride produces the
local King of Training.
> that crash happened for two reasons: one is that the one rider sat up,
> the other is that sprinting is gay.
Sat up without raising a hand up high over his head that I could see.
Did apparently ride in a straight line and left room on both sides.
Good there. Others didn't cover for him and they could have, from what
I saw, if they gave a shit about the riders following.
Whether the sprinting is gay or not depends on how fast they can
sprint <g>. Sprinting outside of racing at whatever level is a test of
abilities other than riding fast-- like being able to keep track of
wheels ahead and behind, and managing a safe conclusion.
> we had a long discussion about this a while ago. but when a ride is
> too easy all the "sprinter" goons can hang on and will ride like
> idiots and chop people left and right to "win" the sprint, so a good
> ride needs to have some hills, because it is just too easy for the
> goons to sit in on a big group on the flat.
Goons are goons. Hills are one way to deal with them. We kicked one
bad hombre out; sent him a letter and everything.
I've never taken anyone down, however sorely tempted, but I sure as
hell have given a dose of their own medicine (a closer chop) and
"talked it over" afterwards. Whatever it takes...
> the case where a fast group takes out a slower rider that isn't part
> of the group is inexcusable.
Even given that shit happens, yes, it is inexcusable.
> weaker riders in the group are usually problems because they either go
> to deep and start to lose control or they are afraid to leave a buffer
> when they should because they're not confident they can close the gap
> when they want to - don't get me wrong, everyone, even pros have their
> limit.
On group rides, "training rides", you help the newbies along and teach
them. Most important is how to sit comfortably on a wheel and take
care of business while occupying your place in the group. Some people
are just amazingly good at that and some people are clueless, forever.
Some of them just never had the luck to have someone bring them up
short, if necessary, and start reading The Book to them.
> the way to deal with slower riders is to leave them on the front when
> they get gapped and wait while they die and then sprint around them
> and jump across the gap.
Well, I know what you meant to say, i think, and that's one way.
Another is to teach them how to ride a wheel safely and get them to be
good, confident group riders who know very well how to take a place in
a group, including at the back, and TCB while they're in there,
including not riding at the front when they're not strong enough to
last up there, and might not know where the ride is going, either.
That's another great crash opportunity, having the guys at the front
miss a turn and having a mix of others in the first several rows who
don't know the route, either.
(a chapter in The Book that has been written many, many times): "If
You Don't Know Where We're Going, What Are You Doing On the Front?")
(funny as long as no one gets hurt or ruins a bicycle for no good
reason)
Better to wait for the dropped at some turn of the road or whatever
after they get sawed off, IOW to bring them along instead of putting
the hurt on them on purpose just because you can.
Like my teachers told me, early on: this is not altruistic ("we don't
want you to take us out").
I've committed most or all of the sins; one day, after a particularly
gory human sacrifice, "I decided not to do it that way any more".
That's a David Meyer-Oakes reference that I'll explain later. Nighty-
night!
--D-y
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:8fc13u...@mid.individual.net...
I used to lead quite a few rides when I was younger... much younger. On
a significant climb, I could ride the front, drift back to check on the
riders at the tail end, and then get back to the front again. Or at
least I have dim memories of doing that. I even remember teaching a few
young guys how to climb 25 years ago, and within just a couple years
there was no chance I could hold their wheels. Now, the
Tuesday/Thursday-morning ride is technically "my" ride, but I can no
longer police it from a position of strength. The only time it becomes a
problem is when a guy shows up who doesn't know what it means to stay to
the right when there are cars stacking up behind. It would be so much
easier to deal with if I could simply ride past him and tell him to move
the heck over, but sometimes you get these guys who think that, because
they're strong, that somehow means they own the road. I don't get that.
I really wish there were more young kids coming up. It's a crazy world
these days, when Masters categories fill up months in advance and the
juniors get maybe 30 (in the mid-70s, the junior fields were often the
largest). I remember being annoyed at the older guys, who couldn't climb
like I could, so they seemed to want to make up for it by giving free
(and not-asked-for) advice. Why should we listen to them? The only thing
they could do was outsprint us. And as far as they likely knew, I didn't
listen to them. But actually, I did. I absorbed just about every single
word.
It pains me that the "road bike" market is a 35+ demographic, with the
younger guys into fixies or mountain bikes. It's probably because, back
in the day, your road bike was your escape. You didn't have a car, so it
was by bike that you got around, and dang, you really got around. These
days, kids either have cars of their own or parents who drive them
everywhere.
What am I saying, what's my point? Maybe that we're getting to people
too late. The 37 year old is probably set in his ways and not there to
take advice from anybody, but rather to exercise his own control over
something. It takes a more charismatic person than I to enforce the sort
of order that's needed in a large group ride.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
--D-y
wrote:
It's kinda funny, the attitudes you see. When I started riding with
the racer-dudes, I did so because they tagged along (ahem) on a
"civilian" group ride and showed me, in a nice way, they knew a whole
lot more about riding bicycles than I did, although I had been riding
"seriously" for some years. It wasn't long before that first race day
came along and I entered a Citizens' event, and went on from there.
Those three guys took the time to train about 7 or 8 guys who popped
out of the woodwork and formed a team, with frequent training rides
where one sat at the front, one in the middle, one at the rear of our
little beginner group and told us what to do/how to do it in detail.
Never a crash on those rides. People went off in smaller groups by
themselves, and crashed. No discipline being applied, don't you know!
However the usual deal is: speed (power), and intimidation: as you
alluded to, those are the necessary weapons. "Charisma" is just window
dressing <g>.
I can't take any credit because the "passing of the torch" is being
done by others in my club, but over the last year or three we've had
two Juniors come along who have listened and learned. They have motors
and have posted excellent racing results, fine and dandy, all well and
good, but they've also turned into wheels you can trust and they also
get in the boat and row better than some of the old hands, when it
comes to "ride management" (aka self-discipline).
Meaning, for the Sunday ride as currently constituted, a steady, easy
roll out of town, perhaps a Determination after a nice long warm-up
(and maybe not!), a store stop, and maybe some more controlled
jousting, with regroupings, before another steady roll back home,
50-60 miles total.
It doesn't always go smoothly, but most often it does-- just saying it
has happened <g>.
These youngsters, I think of them as 35-year-olds in 15-year-old's
bodies. A lot more fun to ride with than their, um, counterparts.
--D-y
William R. Mattil
>
> It's kinda funny, the attitudes you see. When I started riding with
> the racer-dudes, I did so because they tagged along (ahem) on a
> "civilian" group ride and showed me, in a nice way, they knew a whole
> lot more about riding bicycles than I did, although I had been riding
> "seriously" for some years. It wasn't long before that first race day
> came along and I entered a Citizens' event, and went on from there.
> Those three guys took the time to train about 7 or 8 guys who popped
> out of the woodwork and formed a team, with frequent training rides
> where one sat at the front, one in the middle, one at the rear of our
> little beginner group and told us what to do/how to do it in detail.
>
> Never a crash on those rides. People went off in smaller groups by
> themselves, and crashed. No discipline being applied, don't you know!
>
> However the usual deal is: speed (power), and intimidation: as you
> alluded to, those are the necessary weapons. "Charisma" is just window
> dressing<g>.
This has been an interesting thread and brings back a lot of fond memories.
In the Early 80's we, about 10 riders, started a S. Cal Club called
Coast Velo - though I seem to recall that it was a reincarnation of an
earlier club. But one of the members, the only one with actual race
experience took us under his wing and generally schooled us in the
subtle and not subtle niceties of riding in a group. As we progressed it
was drilled into us that during the early season evenness was favored
over speed. At the time I used to think that it was because some members
weren't as competent at hills. But later reeducation proved otherwise <g>
The club grew in size and it wasn't uncommon for there to be 50+ riders
on our Saturday Morning Rides. And the quality of riders got better too.
So much so that I can honestly say that there weren't a lot of races
that were harder than these Sat Morning rides. A good mix of Cat II's
and III's and a few very stout Juniors made up this core group.
Greg Oravetz was one of these riders - and was a junior. In fact I can
remember by wife taking him to his first race as a Junior. Acton if
memory serves - and he lapped the field.
Along with the the weekend rides, we had a Tues/Thus nite Crit Practice
session that took place in an Industrial Park, around a loop that was
largely deserted by 6PM except for a Health Club <lol> and eventually
we picked up a number of additional riders from that source. This was
not a closed loop really. But the pace was very fast and I don't recall
there ever being any real problems or many crashes. There were some
interesting moments because of an errant car perhaps, but those were of
no real consequence.
Since everyone pretty much knew everyone the group was policed very well
and I don't ever recall any real problems such as those mentioned by
Mike. The average age was probably mid 20's or so. But a lot of the
older cadre were the ones that kept things running smoothly.
Regards
Bill
--
William R. Mattil