It was Landis
Jeff Jones
Geraard Spergen
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
>
> Jeff
>
Bastard! (pending positive B sample test)
Ernst Noch
What a mess! Godamn, hope this turns out as a failure. There's still
hope, right? Dammit, the press will be all over cycling.
trg
44c8cca7$0$1493$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
Is this a case of a non-natural doping product found, or a naturally
occurring hormone found at abnormal levels?
Bob in CT
wrote:
I think both, but google-ing this turns up a ton of info, not much of
which is related to cycling.
--
Bob in CT
Ewoud Dronkert
> Is this a case of a non-natural doping product found, or a naturally
> occurring hormone found at abnormal levels?
It's what is says: unbalanced level of two related hormones, taken as
an indication of manipulation. Same as what brought down Gert-Jan
Theunisse.
--
E. Dronkert
trg
news: pfjhc2hngg1hv1hlf...@4ax.com...
And Mary Decker Slaney. (Was Floyd on the pill?)
It looks like we're all about to get another biology lesson. Is it possible
that the massive amounts of water that Landis consumed could influence the
results?
Dumbass
"Dutch rider Gert-Jan Theunisse was busted during the 1990 Tour, for
the second time in two years, but was given a stay of execution because
of a procedural mix-up. The other riders, believing he should have been
banned, went on strike. This may have been somewhat hypocritical in
certain cases. Theunisse's defence was that his body produced unusually
high levels of testosterone ."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,989709,00.html
Andy B.
"Jeff Jones" <je...@cyclingnews.com> wrote in message
news:1154009276....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
>
> Jeff
>
Two questions:
1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his performance?
2) Could the effort it took to win stage 17 throw the hormone ratios out of
balance?
-Andy B.
Keith
It'a most likely a case of applying giant testo patches all over his
"private parts" as explained by Jackche's doc' before the tour.
mimoso
"trg" <t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com> wrote in message
news:eaajjs$vr6$1...@s1.news.oleane.net...
Actually, the reason of his massive water consumption was to hide the drug
in question from testing...kind of makes sense now...
Dumbass
Andy B. wrote:
> "Jeff Jones" <je...@cyclingnews.com> wrote in message
> news:1154009276....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his performance?
I don't know what you mean? His performance on the drug test? Explain.
>
> 2) Could the effort it took to win stage 17 throw the hormone ratios out of
> balance?
In general, a natural or pathological physical condition could lead to
a 6:1 ratio, but I don't know the details.
>
> -Andy B.
trg
F9CdncW7da1HTlXZ...@comcast.com...
Maybe he took it to do well in the ITT a few days later?
trg
Nv4yg.244316$iF6.192749@pd7tw2no...
How'd that work out for him?
Dumbass
Just guessing, but water probably decreases the amount of both T and E
the same amount in a urine test. I know that a doper can take E to
try to get the T:E ratio below 6:1. The water would mask the total
amount of both, assuming that is necessary to pass the tests, but I
don't know if there is an absolute limit.
Keith
>>>
>>> It looks like we're all about to get another biology lesson. Is it
>>> possible that the massive amounts of water that Landis consumed could
>>> influence the results?
>>
>> Actually, the reason of his massive water consumption was to hide the
>> drug
>> in question from testing...kind of makes sense now...
>>
>
>How'd that work out for him?
Well water is know to "wash out' the stuff they take, not sure it
works for testo, but it cetainly works for "speed"
Scott
mimoso wrote:
> >
> > It looks like we're all about to get another biology lesson. Is it
> > possible that the massive amounts of water that Landis consumed could
> > influence the results?
>
> Actually, the reason of his massive water consumption was to hide the drug
> in question from testing...kind of makes sense now...
The water was for his hydration, only. Water consumption, while it may
have flushed stimulants, wouldn't have any effect on the T/E ratio
test.
It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
Epitestosterone Ratio
By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.
Summary
Intoxicating beverages contain a number of different forms of alcohol,
the major constituent of which is ethanol. When a beverage is consumed
the ethanol content passes through the stomach wall and digestive tract
into the blood stream. Once the ethanol enters circulation it begins
to alter the bodies' biochemistry. One such reaction is to
differentially increase the rates of testosterone (T) and
epitestosterone (E) metabolism. The overall effect of this reaction is
to increase the ratio of T to E excreted in the urine.
It has been reported that ethanol consumption can increase urinary T/E
ratios by 30% - 277% in healthy individuals. Observed changes in
plasma T/E ratios can occur with the consumption of less than 2 pints
of lager. The ingestion of ethanol by an individual will increase the
T/E ratio observed in a urine sample.
It follows that if the effect of ethanol on T/E ratios is calculated
relative to urinary E concentrations, it can be seen that increases in
the ratio are exponential as E concentrations decrease. Individuals
with naturally low E concentrations could, therefore, experience
increases in T/E ratios of ? 940% greater than increases experienced in
an individual with normal E concentrations. Calculations estimate
that in individuals with low urinary E concentration, ratios of 17 to 1
or higher could have resulted from ethanol consumption without any
administration of exogenous T.
The current T/E ratio test as performed by Kings College Laboratory and
approved by the UK Sports, the IWF and IOC cannot discriminate between
a 13 to 1 T/E ratio resulting from ethanol ingestion or a 13 to 1 ratio
resulting from endogenous T administration.
Scott
Right, he's 8 minutes down, with apparently little hope of getting back
in contention, and he takes testosterone so he can gain a minute on a
time trial 3 days later?
C'mon.
B. Lafferty
"Scott" <hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1154013702.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
C'mon.
Wouldn't the testosterone be used daily (by patch) to aid recovery? Could
that build up cumulatively at some point?
Montesquiou
"Scott" <hendric...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1154013430.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> mimoso wrote:
>> >
>> > It looks like we're all about to get another biology lesson. Is it
>> > possible that the massive amounts of water that Landis consumed could
>> > influence the results?
>>
>> Actually, the reason of his massive water consumption was to hide the
>> drug
>> in question from testing...kind of makes sense now...
>
> The water was for his hydration, only. Water consumption, while it may
> have flushed stimulants, wouldn't have any effect on the T/E ratio
> test.
>
> It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
>
> The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
> Epitestosterone Ratio
>
Yes I know. It is a beer from Belgium.
Called "Pot Belge" or something .......
Donald Munro
> It'a most likely a case of applying giant testo patches all over his
> "private parts" as explained by Jackche's doc' before the tour.
Which means heather wasn't doing her job properly.
Donald Munro
> It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
Its all LiveDrunk(tm)'s fault.
elvis4...@yahoo.com
He sure made a point to let everyone know he drank himself some beer
the night before but hell so did I.....
Scott
I don't have any idea how quickly the use of testosterone would aid his
recovery. As for the cumulative build up, I'd imagine that we'd see a
continued high ratio for many days, if that were the case. If his
later tests were not positive, then you'd have to look for a reason
that his T/E ratio would be high on THAT day only.
The beer defense makes good sense, as it was widely reported that he
drank beer the night before.
RonSonic
The water consumption was perfectly reasonable for a guy riding like a maniac on
a baking hot day in the mountains. If you've ever had a great ride in the rain,
you know how great it is when the cooling problem is off the table.
Now, was he riding like a maniac because of doping or were his hormone levels
whacked because he's a maniac. There's nothing about Floyd that would make one
expect him to have low testosterone levels.
Ron
Warren G
Scott wrote:
> trg wrote:
> > "Andy B." <wat...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > F9CdncW7da1HTlXZ...@comcast.com...
> > > Two questions:
> > >
> > > 1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his performance?
> > >
> > > 2) Could the effort it took to win stage 17 throw the hormone ratios out
> > > of balance?
> > >
> > > -Andy B.
> > >
> >
> > Maybe he took it to do well in the ITT a few days later?
>
> Right, he's 8 minutes down, with apparently little hope of getting back
> in contention, and he takes testosterone so he can gain a minute on a
> time trial 3 days later?
>
> C'mon.
Take it for better recovery that night (the night before he gained back
8 minutes).
The effects from bonking are varied, but many riders report feeling
especially good the day after bonking. Possibly due to some hormonal
responses to the bonking?
I always thought it was curious, we have a guy who may be riding his
last bike race ever, the Tour may be within his grasp, and now
something dramatic must happen for him to get back in contention. When
asked how he felt about this at the time (during the evening before he
went on the attack) he replied, "Well, I had to do something."
Apparently he was referring to attacking on the first climb, but we can
wonder, at that point in time, what did he have to lose by resorting to
doping?
Andy B.
"Dumbass" <tada...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1154012962.4...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> 1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his
>> performance?
>
> I don't know what you mean? His performance on the drug test? Explain.
He passed all the tests he took prior to stage 17 (he would have been tested
on the days he was in yellow) implying that the ratios were o.k. until stage
17. So if you assume he was on test, something changed either on stage 16
or 17. So the question I'm asking is whether adding testosterone the day
before or increasing the dosage the day before that stage could impact his
performance (e.g. could it have helped recovery after stage 16) for the
remainder of the race. If the answer is "no", then why would you do it?
-Andy B.
Scott
Warren G wrote:
> I always thought it was curious, we have a guy who may be riding his
> last bike race ever, the Tour may be within his grasp, and now
> something dramatic must happen for him to get back in contention. When
> asked how he felt about this at the time (during the evening before he
> went on the attack) he replied, "Well, I had to do something."
>
> Apparently he was referring to attacking on the first climb, but we can
> wonder, at that point in time, what did he have to lose by resorting to
> doping?
What did he have to lose? Everything... to include his pride.
Dumbass
Assuming he was doping, I think this speculation about doping to have a
good stage 17 is dumbass.
The behind the scenes story always seems to be that somebody that was
routinely doping just cut it too close to the testing limits.
Wayne
One has to wonder whether anyone in the lab or WADA has ever seen
papers such as those below, demonstrating a marked elevation in
testosterone levels for both aerobic and anaerobic excercise. The
first paper is from 1984 -- from bicycle ergometer work -- and the
second from 1982.
Wayne
Dumbass
Ernst Noch wrote:
> Jeff Jones wrote:
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
> >
> > Jeff
> >
>
> hope, right? Dammit, the press will be all over cycling.
There is about a 0% chance of a failure.
But there is about a 100% chance that Landis or his doctors will claim
that the ratio has some explanation other than doping. I don't know
if the explanation will be creditable.
trg
1154013702.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
C'mon.
------------------------------------------
I assume he wasn't tested after the stage he lost 10 minutes, since they
test the stage winner and the GC leader(s), not the 11th place rider who
came in 20 something on the day. So if he took it BEFORE that stage when he
had a narrow lead, it could have been caught the next day.
I'm not saying that's what happened, just that even if testosterone doesn't
have an immediate effect, that doesn't cancel all reasons why he might take
it.
Dumbass
If he was doping, I doubt that he did any special doping with
testosterone for stage 17.
But, testosterone can hype you up in the short run.
>
> -Andy B.
h squared
i got distracted by oscar and never made it to flandis?
i guess i'm on the dole now, huh.
h
Simon Brooke
Jones ('je...@cyclingnews.com') wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
Oh, shit.
I wasn't a Landis fan - I rather hoped we'd have an American-free podium,
for a change. But I didn't want it this way. And to be honest, despite
Phonak's history, I would not have suspected him of it.
Oh, /shit/.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03
Simon Brooke
('wat...@hotmail.com') wrote:
> "Jeff Jones" <je...@cyclingnews.com> wrote in message
> news:1154009276....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his
> performance?
>
> 2) Could the effort it took to win stage 17 throw the hormone ratios
> out of balance?
Pass. Let's hope so, though. Let's hope that this isn't yet another
doping scandal.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Drivers in the UK kill more people every single year than
;; Al Qaeda have ever killed worldwide in any single year.
Simon Brooke
('t...@world.REMOVETHIS.std.com') wrote:
> "Geraard Spergen" <GSpe...@spammagnet.net> a écrit dans le message de
> news: 44c8cca7$0$1493$c3e...@news.astraweb.com...
>> Jeff Jones wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
>>
>> Bastard! (pending positive B sample test)
>
> Is this a case of a non-natural doping product found, or a naturally
> occurring hormone found at abnormal levels?
There are two natural hormones, testosterone and epitestosterone. There
is a natural ratio in their production. To quote
http://www.rcpamanual.edu.au/sections/pathologytest.asp?s=33&i=601
"Testosterone and epitestosterone are both synthesised by the body, so
that in urine the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone is <6.
If a sport competitor takes testosterone as a performance enhancing drug,
the ratio is increased above 6."
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; may contain traces of nuts, bolts or washers.
JLS
Scott wrote:
> The Effect of Alcohol Consumption on the Urinary Testosterone /
> Epitestosterone Ratio
>
> By Dr Simon Davis B.Sc., Ph.D.
>
[...]
Anybody got a better cite for this than Muscle World?
JLS
Donald Munro
>>>It'a most likely a case of applying giant testo patches all over his
>>>"private parts" as explained by Jackche's doc' before the tour.
Donald Munro wrote:
>> Which means heather wasn't doing her job properly.
h squared wrote:
> i got distracted by oscar and never made it to flandis?
Which oscar ?
> i guess i'm on the dole now, huh.
Don't worry you can always go back to your old job as head stocker (that
is if the ex-assistant stocker doesn't mind relinquishing his new post).
RonSonic
>> Apparently he was referring to attacking on the first climb, but we can
>> wonder, at that point in time, what did he have to lose by resorting to
>> doping?
>
>Assuming he was doping, I think this speculation about doping to have a
>good stage 17 is dumbass.
>
>The behind the scenes story always seems to be that somebody that was
>routinely doping just cut it too close to the testing limits.
Very true. Let's go to the experts in cheating at a race, NASCAR. Richard Petty
won the 1984 Firecracker 400 with an oversize engine and illegal tires. He
promptly fired the crew chief and mechanic involved. Not so much for cheating,
but for the insult of thinking that he couldn't win with the cheats and be found
out in the teardown inspection that the winning car is given. Then they
compounded the sin by not only not telling him beforehand, by by not getting on
the radio and telling him to lightfoot it into third place when he was leading.
I've got no doubt that the Nascar pack fill all cheat like hell. It costs less
to just bore the damn thing out another 40 cubic inches than the R&D program to
keep up within the rules.
Floyd ain't pack fill and knew damn well there'd be a test of the stage winner
and yellow jersey winner. We can trust that he and his witch doctor (assuming he
is dirty) would know better than to send him out there to be caught with
anything special for that one day. So either he was legal limit dirty all along
and some change in body mass, chemistry, clumsy dosage put him over the line. Or
he's clean and has the sort of freak endocrinology it would seem to take to do
what he does and a combination of factors; stress, beer,
dehydration/rehydration, terror, anger caused the anomolous test.
In either case, the positive test is itself the anomoly.
Is sabotage an option? Do the French even have a word for that?
Ron
tluczyns
Scott napisal(a):
> mimoso wrote:
> > >
> > > It looks like we're all about to get another biology lesson. Is it
> > > possible that the massive amounts of water that Landis consumed could
> > > influence the results?
> >
> > Actually, the reason of his massive water consumption was to hide the drug
> > in question from testing...kind of makes sense now...
>
> The water was for his hydration, only. Water consumption, while it may
> have flushed stimulants, wouldn't have any effect on the T/E ratio
> test.
>
> It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
It is proven that beer decreases testosteron rate because of the
liquorice which is added to it. Maybe that was the reason to drink it
by him.
Scott
Let's not obfuscate things. You make it sound as if it can't possibly
be valid as it was written about on a website dealing with body
building.
The article was found in a newsletter on www.crainsmuscleworld.com, not
someplace refered to as "Muscle World". It's not in any way related to
body building, but rather it's a site run by a fellow who's been
involved in powerlifting for many years.
Unlike body building, powerlifting as a sport is very much committed to
being drug free. Just because the research was posted on that website
doesn't in any way diminish from the conclusions. That's not to say
that I'm privy to any peer review of the article or of the tests on
which it was based. I'm just saying we shouldn't discount it out of
hand.
Scott
Just a little follow-up on similar articles available online:
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/48/10/1799
the list goes on.
Scott
Gabe Brovedani
JLS
Scott wrote:
> Just a little follow-up on similar articles available online:
> [...]
Exactly what I was looking for, just couldn't conjure "pubmed" for some
reason. Thanks.
JLS
Simon Brooke
('belb...@yahoo.com') wrote:
> Jeff Jones wrote:
>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
>>
>> Jeff
>
> One has to wonder whether anyone in the lab or WADA has ever seen
> papers such as those below, demonstrating a marked elevation in
> testosterone levels for both aerobic and anaerobic excercise. The
> first paper is from 1984 -- from bicycle ergometer work -- and the
> second from 1982.
>
http://www.springerlink.com/(qre1e555zihort55slf1nm55)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,12,24;journal,227,447;linkingpublicationresults,1:100513,1
>
http://www.springerlink.com/(2w3us045m3xox2uhdzov3545)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,11,14;journal,240,447;linkingpublicationresults,1:100513,1
The level isn't the issue. The /ratio/ is the issue.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey
bat...@hotmail.com
rest of the cyclists, resulting in high testosterone. how else would
you go on that long of break, without having a sturdy pair?!
Curtis L. Russell
wrote:
Although we choose to resist the whole 'fault' and 'problem' thing. If
beer the night before caused a problem, switch to ale.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
dga
>
> In either case, the positive test is itself the anomoly.
>
> Is sabotage an option? Do the French even have a word for that?
Sabotage *is* a French word, dufus.
(-;
I tend to agree with you that the test result is the anomoly.
However, the correct response would be to test Landis over a period
of time and controled conditions to determine if his Testosterone
level can approch the test result level without artificial inducement.
In fact, no need to test Landis, do some scientific studies to see if
that level can *ever* occur natually. If it can, the test is useless.
I'm amazed at how readily some people accept that riders are doping
without as readily accepting that some of the tests may be faulty.
I guess that's the nature of fundamentalist anti-doping religion. You
believe something and have no intelligence to question your own
beliefs.
It is possible Landis doped. And it is possible the test is faulty.
Similar to Tyler Hamilton's case, although in that case a world leading
geneticist believes that the test is faulty. But don't tell that to
the anti-doping religious fundamentalists, since reason is not
something that applies to how they think or draw conclusions.
Dennis
B. Lafferty
"Curtis L. Russell" <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote in message
news:73vhc2htkjsspuhre...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:47:17 GMT, Gabe Brovedani <gb...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Donald Munro wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>>It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> Its all LiveDrunk(tm)'s fault.
>>>
>>The great part is that LiveDrunk(TM) is its own remedy.
>
> Although we choose to resist the whole 'fault' and 'problem' thing. If
> beer the night before caused a problem, switch to ale.
IIRC, the beer he drank was Amstel. Clearly, this is a Dutch conspiracy to
get Boogerd the win.
Ryan John Cousineau
Donald Munro <fat-d...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Scott wrote:
>> It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
>
>Its all LiveDrunk(tm)'s fault.
>
This bizarre confluence of the LIVEDRUNK and Millar Line story lines with a
little something called reality has left me baffled and largely speechless.
I apologize to my fans,
--
Ryan Cousineau, rcou...@sfu.ca, www.wiredcola.com
Democracy, whiskey, and sexy!
Donald Munro
> IIRC, the beer he drank was Amstel. Clearly, this is a Dutch conspiracy to
> get Boogerd the win.
Its the Dutch mafia again.
Donald Munro
> I apologize to my fans,
Don't worry, they're having a meeting in the nearest telephone booth.
Stu Fleming
> Is sabotage an option? Do the French even have a word for that?
To complete your picture, ask yourself who else was in the area the
night before who would know a great deal about testosterone preparation...
Andre
Amstel sucks. It's a nasty tasting beer. Don't even call it beer.
Andre
Andre
Andy B. wrote:
> "Jeff Jones" <je...@cyclingnews.com> wrote in message
> news:1154009276....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul27news3
> >
> >
>
> Two questions:
>
> 1) Would taking test the day before or the day of improve his performance?
>
> 2) Could the effort it took to win stage 17 throw the hormone ratios out of
> balance?
>
No, the dope he took threw stage 17 out of balance.
k.papai
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:47:17 GMT, Gabe Brovedani <gb...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Donald Munro wrote:
> >> Scott wrote:
> >>
> >>>It was, however, the beer the night before that caused the problem.
> >>
> >>
> >> Its all LiveDrunk(tm)'s fault.
> >>
> >The great part is that LiveDrunk(TM) is its own remedy.
>
> Although we choose to resist the whole 'fault' and 'problem' thing. If
> beer the night before caused a problem, switch to ale.
???
All ales are beer.
All beers are either ales or lagers.
-Ken
Simon Brooke
('allard-nos...@oceanpark.com') wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
>> On 27 Jul 2006 08:42:39 -0700, "Dumbass" <tada...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> In either case, the positive test is itself the anomoly.
>>
>> Is sabotage an option? Do the French even have a word for that?
>
> Sabotage *is* a French word, dufus.
That whistling sound was the joke passing overhead.
Not to beat about the bush, he /knows/ that.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; "If I were a Microsoft Public Relations person, I would probably
;; be sobbing on a desk right now" -- Rob Miller, editor, /.
Mark
> in message <1154023944.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, dga
> ('allard-nos...@oceanpark.com') wrote:
>
>
>>RonSonic wrote:
>>
>>>On 27 Jul 2006 08:42:39 -0700, "Dumbass" <tada...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>...
>>>
>>>In either case, the positive test is itself the anomoly.
>>>
>>>Is sabotage an option? Do the French even have a word for that?
>>
>>Sabotage *is* a French word, dufus.
>
>
> That whistling sound was the joke passing overhead.
>
> Not to beat about the bush, he /knows/ that.
5 extra points to Simon for the embedded pun[1].
Mark
[1] For "dga's" enlightenment, the recent series of "do the French have
a word for" jokes appear to be a riff on George W. Bush's infamous
public statement that "There is no word for 'entrepreneur' in French."
Welcome to RBR, where you've got to pay more attention. Or as an old
cycling friend used to put it, "Do you want to figure it out for
yourself or do you want to feel stupid?"
Ray_...@hotmail.com
The "ratio" is of two levels, therefore the levels themselves are the
primary "issue".
Tim Lines
That was no meeting, we were just making a few crank phone calls.
Kurgan gave me Floyd's phone number! Too bad I wrote it down wrong. Or
something. The old lady at the other end never heard of Tyler Hamilton
but she was thrilled to hear from Lance although a bit puzzled as to why
he was concerned about her refrigerator. The whole "red blood cell"
thing didn't translate well, I fear.
Tim Lines
HEY, whatever became of your stocker? Seems like you got a bad one, if
you don't mind me saying so.
Bob Schwartz
> I'm amazed at how readily some people accept that riders are doping
> without as readily accepting that some of the tests may be faulty.
>
> I guess that's the nature of fundamentalist anti-doping religion. You
> believe something and have no intelligence to question your own
> beliefs.
>
> It is possible Landis doped. And it is possible the test is faulty.
>
> Similar to Tyler Hamilton's case, although in that case a world leading
> geneticist believes that the test is faulty. But don't tell that to
> the anti-doping religious fundamentalists, since reason is not
> something that applies to how they think or draw conclusions.
>
> Dennis
Dennis, you know I was thinking about you just the other day. I
was thinking that this whole business of finding bags of blood
in the fridge, a lead pipe cinch of a case once they get around
to the DNA testing, was probably the last nail in the coffin of
the most ardent I-believe-in-Tyler belief. Not that they'll find
Tyler's blood in any of those bags, but they'll find lots of
blood from people working with the same guy he was, don't you
think? That along with the notebooks and the fax from Haven and
the exchange of big $$$. And then I thought about you.
Religious fundamentalism can't exist without faith. But you know
that.
Bob Schwartz
PS Did you ever figure out wtf Tyler meant when he mentioned a
surgical event when he first got busted? Most of us just figured
he was a lying fuck who was thinking poorly under pressure
instead of just shutting the fuck up. But I'm sure you've got a
much better explanation.
Donald Munro
> Amstel sucks. It's a nasty tasting beer. Don't even call it beer.
Perhaps the secret is to suck it rather than drink it.
Donald Munro
> HEY, whatever became of your stocker? Seems like you got a bad one, if
> you don't mind me saying so.
Quality stockers are hard to find these days. We may need to consider
outsourcing to India or China.
Curtis L. Russell
>
>???
>All ales are beer.
>All beers are either ales or lagers.
OK, you got me, so I'll pick a nit and add lambic beers, which are
neither as generally classified. I reverted to the basic liquor store
vocabulary, which is any lager that sits between a light beer and
something with a distinctive taste is called a 'beer'.
Nothing wrong with it if you are simply trying to deal with the heat
and you aren't planning to drive anywhere in the near future, but as
long as there is Shiner Hefeweizen, there is no reason to drink beer
as I misused the term even then.
RonSonic
wrote:
>Andre wrote:
>> Amstel sucks. It's a nasty tasting beer. Don't even call it beer.
>
>Perhaps the secret is to suck it rather than drink it.
Now Floyd is saying on NPT that he had some whiskey. Not normal prerace beverage
but something to get him to bed that night.
Ron
Tim Lines
Basically, Americans are spoiled. We want everything given to us. We
don't realize that when you have a good stocker, you have to nurture the
relationship by stocking back. Kunich and Lafferty are among the few to
have it figured out and have nutured a caring, sharing stocking
relationship. It's a thing of beauty and trust. We could all learn
from them.
Michael Press
Curtis L. Russell <cur...@md-bicycling.org> wrote:
> On 27 Jul 2006 15:35:33 -0700, "k.papai" <kenp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >???
> >All ales are beer.
> >All beers are either ales or lagers.
>
> OK, you got me, so I'll pick a nit and add lambic beers, which are
> neither as generally classified. I reverted to the basic liquor store
> vocabulary, which is any lager that sits between a light beer and
> something with a distinctive taste is called a 'beer'.
Take some grain. Moisten it and warm it to allow it to
germinate. The enzymes transform the starch to sugar. Heat
the grain to kill the germination. Add water and heat to
bring the sugar into solution. Add yeast to transform the
sugar into alcohol. That is beer.
Wine is not beer.
Sake is not wine nor beer.
--
Michael Press
dga
'Do the French have a word for...' theme. Seriously. Thanks for
enlightening me.
Although I have particpated in USENET discussions on various topics
since the late 1980s, I do not regularly participate in RBR or any
other group there days, except when a topic gets my dander up, such as
the frenetic throngs who assume all positive drug tests are valid. I
believe some atheletes suffer from false positives and scientifically
dubious testing procedures.
(also, fwiw, I speak French so maybe I over reacted in defense of the
language.)
Cheers,
Dennis Allard
> >>Sabotage *is* a French word, dufus.
> > ...
dga
> dga wrote:
> > I'm amazed at how readily some people accept that riders are doping
> > without as readily accepting that some of the tests may be faulty.
> >
> > I guess that's the nature of fundamentalist anti-doping religion. You
> > believe something and have no intelligence to question your own
> > beliefs.
> >
> > It is possible Landis doped. And it is possible the test is faulty.
> >
> > Similar to Tyler Hamilton's case, although in that case a world leading
> > geneticist believes that the test is faulty. But don't tell that to
> > the anti-doping religious fundamentalists, since reason is not
> > something that applies to how they think or draw conclusions.
> >
> > Dennis
>
> Dennis, you know I was thinking about you just the other day. I
> was thinking that this whole business of finding bags of blood
> in the fridge, a lead pipe cinch of a case once they get around
> to the DNA testing, was probably the last nail in the coffin of
> the most ardent I-believe-in-Tyler belief. Not that they'll find
> Tyler's blood in any of those bags, but they'll find lots of
Clue me in. Are you referring to Opercion Puerto?
If they found stored blood during that investigation and DNA matching
were to demonstrate that Tyler's blood is involved, and there were no
other connection with Tyler that could explain why his blood was
present, then that would be serious circumstantial evidence against
him, of course.
> blood from people working with the same guy he was, don't you
> think? That along with the notebooks and the fax from Haven and
> the exchange of big $$$. And then I thought about you.
What FAX and money exchange are you referring to?
Guilt by association is not valid reasoning or proof, although it is
circumstantial evidence that merits explanation.
> Religious fundamentalism can't exist without faith. But you know
> that.
>
> Bob Schwartz
>
> PS Did you ever figure out wtf Tyler meant when he mentioned a
> surgical event when he first got busted? Most of us just figured
Do you have that quote in context so I can re-examine it?
Assume, if you can, for the sake of conversation, that he is innocent.
Someone comes up to him and shows evidence that he had a blood
transfusion. Ah, let's see, I've been in three critical crashes in the
past two years each requiring medical attention. Maybe I had to have
a blood transfusion during the medical treatment of one of those
incidents. Are *you* sure what they do to you when you are in the
ambulence or at the hospital? Do *you* know if a blood transfusion is
common or rare or complicated or simple? Not everyone does. Tyler may
not have.
Assuming he was lying is one explanation among many others.
> he was a lying fuck who was thinking poorly under pressure
> instead of just shutting the fuck up. But I'm sure you've got a
> much better explanation.
See above.
Bob Schwartz
http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10110.0.html
Where the hell have you been?
BTW the bill in US dollars was $54,000.
> Guilt by association is not valid reasoning or proof, although it is
> circumstantial evidence that merits explanation.
>
>
>> Religious fundamentalism can't exist without faith. But you know
>> that.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz
>>
>> PS Did you ever figure out wtf Tyler meant when he mentioned a
>> surgical event when he first got busted? Most of us just figured
>
> Do you have that quote in context so I can re-examine it?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/sep04/sep21news3
"Hamilton, winner of the gold medal at the Athens 2004 Olympics
in the individual time trial as well as the Vuelta's eighth stage
time trial, abandoned the race prior to stage 13 claiming stomach
problems. Hamilton has denied having a transfusion, saying the
positive test was the result of a surgical intervention he had
some time ago. If the B samples are confirmed positive, then he
risks losing his Olympic gold medal, which would make Viatcheslav
Ekimov the Olympic time trial champion again."
> Assume, if you can, for the sake of conversation, that he is innocent.
> Someone comes up to him and shows evidence that he had a blood
> transfusion. Ah, let's see, I've been in three critical crashes in the
> past two years each requiring medical attention. Maybe I had to have
> a blood transfusion during the medical treatment of one of those
> incidents. Are *you* sure what they do to you when you are in the
> ambulence or at the hospital? Do *you* know if a blood transfusion is
> common or rare or complicated or simple? Not everyone does. Tyler may
> not have.
>
> Assuming he was lying is one explanation among many others.
That is not just a reach. That is a KING SIZE MONSTER DUMBASS reach.
Good work. Keep believing. It could have been space aliens. That's
an explanation that hasn't been explored.
Bob Schwartz
Ernst Noch
>
> That is not just a reach. That is a KING SIZE MONSTER DUMBASS reach.
> Good work. Keep believing. It could have been space aliens. That's
> an explanation that hasn't been explored.
>
> Bob Schwartz
http://data1.blog.de/blog/k/kalpeakatsastaja/img/i%20want%20to%20believe.jpg
Donald Munro
> That is not just a reach. That is a KING SIZE MONSTER DUMBASS reach.
> Good work. Keep believing. It could have been space aliens. That's
> an explanation that hasn't been explored.
How dare you imply we're not doing our job.
rbr committee on conspiracies.