Cicero's law
Cicero Venatio
price increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists
rises at the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist
is pissed that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off
when he sees someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is
in. Thus, he squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to
frighten you back into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he
is in. It's not logical of course, because the more people that ride
bikes, the more gas for him, but they just don't see it like that.
Fred
Fred's Law:
Cicero is an idiot.
Fred
Simply Fred
> Fred's Law:
>
> Cicero is an idiot.
I thought that was an axiom.
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:11c64858-b566-4e1f...@l18g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Fred's Law:
Cicero is an idiot.
Fred
======
On the other hand, I've seriously given thought to a custom jersey that says
something like "Helping make gas cheaper for you!"
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Peter Cole
That might make you as popular as Prius owners. You'd probably get more
love with a "Drill, baby, drill" shirt.
landotter
wrote:
> "Fred" <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
That's about as charming as a religious decal telling me smugly that
I'm going to hell. Neither are true. Both are more likely to make me
behave negatively towards the person displaying them.
As far as the OP's claim: correlation isn't causation. Seems to be
more facile 'merican thinking. Gas is cheap, this isn't the UK.
Anton Berlin
They were texting a friend about how expensive the gas they just
bought is. That's why you almost got run over.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On Feb 13, 2:16 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"<Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>> "Fred"<fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:11c64858-b566-4e1f...@l18g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 12, 10:27 pm, Cicero Venatio<jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:> I have noticed that after the gas price passes $3/gallon, and as that
>>> price increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists
>>> rises at the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist
>>> is pissed that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off
>>> when he sees someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is
>>> in. Thus, he squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to
>>> frighten you back into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he
>>> is in. It's not logical of course, because the more people that ride
>>> bikes, the more gas for him, but they just don't see it like that.
>>
>> ======
>> Fred's Law:
>>
>> Cicero is an idiot.
>>
>> Fred
>> ======
>>
>> On the other hand, I've seriously given thought to a custom jersey that says
>> something like "Helping make gas cheaper for you!"
>>
>
> That's about as charming as a religious decal telling me smugly that
Someday, you may find yourself in Hell, Michigan.
--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
landotter
Hopefully on a cold day.
SMS
> That might make you as popular as Prius owners. You'd probably get more
> love with a "Drill, baby, drill" shirt.
The reason most people don't like Prius owners is not because of the
fuel efficiency of the Prius. No one hates VW TDI owners, even though
some TDI models are far more fuel efficient than the Prius.
Dan O
Cager resentment is a real phenomenon. I have said so again and
again. I believe it is a significant factor in their level of outrage
at seeing me, say, blow a stop - even though blowing said stop has no
effect on their or anyone else's traffic situation.
On top of my escaping their fuel cost burden, I might postulate that
they hate to see me looking and feeling physically good (having the
form and stamina their wives might wish they had :-), circumventing
traffic delays that they cannot, and having fun in the process.
Dan O
wrote:
> "Fred" <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Reducing traffic congestion, parking space utilization, health care
demand, air pollution, resource utilization, etc.
Fred
These things only apply if you're riding your bike as transportation,
not for recreation. And, if you're on the road (as opposed to a
dedicated bike lane) and not riding at the prevailing speed of
traffic, you're not reducing traffic congestion, you're creating
more.
Fred
Dan O
Even the health care demand part?
It's true that it depends a great deal on how and where you ride -
your approach to the whole business - whether you stay out of the way
as much as is practicable - "right to the road" notwithstanding.
I do mostly ride for transportation. A lot of people drive cars for
recreation. Another piece of my theory on cager resentment is that a
lot of them think I'm riding for recreation when I'm mainly trying to
make it safely to work and home again (though I may engage in some
play along the way :-).
pastor...@lanaifaith.com
"Cicero Venatio" <jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6LadnWMBQpp99srQ...@earthlink.com...
journalism, in other words, you try to come up with something outrageous,
you made this up.
But in reply to your post, I would say. When you are out in traffic on a
bicycle, you have to be aware that you are the smallest vehicle on wheels
out there. Drivers do not necessarily see you. Drive as close to the right
as possible. Try to ride with the flow of traffic. If the speed limit is
35mph, and you can ride 25mph, traffic is only passing you by 10mph. If cars
are passing you at a high rate of speed, and you are going 10mph in traffic
that is passing a weaving bicycle, at 25mph then you should avoid traffic.
Your biggest defense is to keep your eyes open ahead of you, look into car
windows and look for a driver who could open the driver's door. Make room in
traffic or signal the car behind you with a hand signal, that there is
caution ahead(that driver opening a door), and pass with caution.
I have been riding for years in traffic, only a couple times did an operator
of a vehicle ever try to use their car, as you describe.
1. ride as far to the right as possible.
2. try to ride with the flow of traffic.
3. keep your eyes open, watch ahead for danger.
4. think small, a car may not see you. Never insist on right of way.
5. ride safely.
Fred
> On Feb 12, 9:27 pm, Cicero Venatio <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have noticed that after the gas price passes $3/gallon, and as that
> > price increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists
> > rises at the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist
> > is pissed that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off
> > when he sees someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is
> > in. Thus, he squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to
> > frighten you back into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he
> > is in. It's not logical of course, because the more people that ride
> > bikes, the more gas for him, but they just don't see it like that.
>
> Cager resentment is a real phenomenon. I have said so again and
> again. I believe it is a significant factor in their level of outrage
> at seeing me, say, blow a stop - even though blowing said stop has no
> effect on their or anyone else's traffic situation.
I despise your attitude, that it's okay to blow stop signs just 'cause
you're not affecting anyone. You ARE affecting folks, everyone else
on bikes, that is. Your actions not only affect the level of outrage,
in large part actions like yours are the cause of the outrage.
Fred
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> "Cicero Venatio"<jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:6LadnWMBQpp99srQ...@earthlink.com...
>> I have noticed that after the gas price passes $3/gallon, and as that price
>> increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists rises at
>> the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist is pissed
>> that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off when he sees
>> someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is in. Thus, he
>> squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to frighten you back
>> into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he is in. It's not
>> logical of course, because the more people that ride bikes, the more gas
>> for him, but they just don't see it like that.
> I disagree with what you wrote. What I think is going on here is sensational
> journalism, in other words, you try to come up with something outrageous,
> you made this up.
> But in reply to your post, I would say. When you are out in traffic on a
> bicycle, you have to be aware that you are the smallest vehicle on wheels
> out there. Drivers do not necessarily see you. Drive as close to the right
> as possible. Try to ride with the flow of traffic. If the speed limit is
> 35mph, and you can ride 25mph, traffic is only passing you by 10mph. If cars
> are passing you at a high rate of speed, and you are going 10mph in traffic
> that is passing a weaving bicycle, at 25mph then you should avoid traffic.
> Your biggest defense is to keep your eyes open ahead of you, look into car
> windows and look for a driver who could open the driver's door.
Stay *OUT* of the damn door zone! [1]
> Make room in
> traffic or signal the car behind you with a hand signal, that there is
> caution ahead(that driver opening a door), and pass with caution.
> I have been riding for years in traffic, only a couple times did an operator
> of a vehicle ever try to use their car, as you describe.
> 1. ride as far to the right as possible.
> 2. try to ride with the flow of traffic.
> 3. keep your eyes open, watch ahead for danger.
> 4. think small, a car may not see you. Never insist on right of way.
> 5. ride safely.
1 and 5 are contradictory.
[1] Unless you are riding a home-built 'bent with a metal fairing and
enough mass to fold the car door back on its hinges.
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
Peter Cole
As usual, you miss my point.
Cicero Venatio
>
> As far as the OP's claim: correlation isn't causation. Seems to be
> more facile 'merican thinking. Gas is cheap, this isn't the UK.
Let's try another example then. After the 911 attacks on the World
trade Center, hundreds of people died hitting the pavement after jumping
out of the windows of those skyscrapers because fires stopped a normal
escape. Now what do you think a lot of people working in other
skyscrapers thought about all of these jumpers at the World Trade
Center? Yep, they should have had a parachute, and some business did
create a parachute that you can buy, and store in your 80th floor
office. So now for the question, let's say you work on the same floor
as the guy who has a parachute, would you be resentful towards him that
he would save himself, and leave you to your fate stuck in a burning
skyscraper, if that were ever to happen? This is the same feeling a
motorist feels towards a commuter on a bicycle, after the gas price
rises above a certain point.
------------
Steven Bornfeld
+1
Duane Hebert
Then they must be deranged. Equating burning to death with paying a few
extra bucks at the pumps? Deranged.
Dan O
Whence comes this outrage, though? Can you offer a reason? (Please
make it a reasonable one.) Is it simply the righteous indignation of
busybody schoolmarms? Maybe sometimes. My point here is that I think
it is often a transferrance and venting of self-imposed frustration
and misery (such as the cost of fuel) inherent in their chosen mode of
transport.
BTW, and only (because this may seem like quite a stretch :-), only
since you have decided to blame me for outrage directed at others, see
if you can't wrap your mind around this: Everyone on bikes
demonstrating strict compliance whether or not it makes practical
sense only reinforce that expectation in the minds of cranky cagers.
So there! A closed circle of cause and effect. *You're* setting *me*
up for the outrage :-)
James
You're saying we should break the rules so they expect us to and don't
get upset by it?
Strangely I see some sense in that - not that I would advocate it.
It does seem one sided that the cagers should feel such annoyance at
riders who disobey the road rules, mostly putting none but themselves at
risk, whereas if a cager breaks the rules and causes a rider mad panic
to avoid catastrophe, they tell the rider to get off the fucking road.
It's a superiority complex I think.
JS.
Dan O
No, I said, "... only since you have decided to blame me for outrage
directed at others... "
>
> Strangely I see some sense in that - not that I would advocate it.
>
There is some sense in it. Is it reasonable for cranky cagers to be
outraged at you because of my actions? Of course not.
And I wouldn't advocate it either - just pointing it out.
> It does seem one sided that the cagers should feel such annoyance at
> riders who disobey the road rules, mostly putting none but themselves at
> risk, whereas if a cager breaks the rules and causes a rider mad panic
> to avoid catastrophe, they tell the rider to get off the fucking road.
>
> It's a superiority complex I think.
>
There's that, too, but my point in this thread is that I think a lot
of their anger is misplaced - borne of their own miserable existence
and resentment of someone else who enjoys a better way.
Duane Hebert
My wife has complained about some of the roadies around here blowing
stop signs in front of her. There are a lot of riders crossing through
the towns here to get to the country for rides (me included <g>) She's
not a busybody schoolmarm and she's not righteously indignant. It's not
a question of frustrated cagers either as she's a cyclist, she's married
to a cyclist and has a cyclist for a son. The way she puts it is that
if she's going to try not to kill the guy on the bike, he should at
least make some effort not to be killed.
I've also been pretty annoyed myself with a couple riding double in
front of me for a mile or so when they could have pulled into single
file to let me pass.
It's not always an us and them thing. As usual, it depends.
Dan O
Maybe I'd better rephrase that as, "No, not at all, I said... "
And the whole proposition was quite tongue in cheek. Note at least a
couple of carefully placed smileys (though I know I overuse those at
the risk of lost effect), and how about that "So there!" :-) Toungue
in cheek.
>
>
> > Strangely I see some sense in that - not that I would advocate it.
>
> There is some sense in it. Is it reasonable for cranky cagers to be
> outraged at you because of my actions? Of course not.
>
> And I wouldn't advocate it either - just pointing it out.
>
And I don't mean that seeing obedient cyclists is the main reason
cagers may expect me to obey the law. Obviously for most people that
is just a given expectation. But why should they care if I'm not
hurting anyone? (Not justifying here.) Busybody schoolmarms? (I
don't think that's the chief source of the worst outrage as I have
noted.)
We all know that many traffic laws don't make as much sense for bikes
as they do for cars. I was just suggesting (and "... only since [he]
decided to blame me for outrage directed at others... ") that if all
"cyclists" did whatever made the most practical sense all the time
laws notwithstanding, expectations would follow and cagers might be a
lot less outraged to see it happen.
Again - all very tongue in cheek and only because that guy was so
vehement in his explicit disdain for my "attitude". As you may
imagine, I get plenty of that already :-)
Dan O
Sure, I'm only talking about situations where I am paying attention
and there is no interference, impediment, etc. for other traffic -
certainly no endangerment or taking someone else's right-of-way.
>
> I've also been pretty annoyed myself with a couple riding double in
> front of me for a mile or so when they could have pulled into single
> file to let me pass.
>
> It's not always an us and them thing. As usual, it depends.
I'm only talking about *some* of "them" :-)
Duane Hebert
<snip>
> And I don't mean that seeing obedient cyclists is the main reason
> cagers may expect me to obey the law. Obviously for most people that
> is just a given expectation. But why should they care if I'm not
> hurting anyone? (Not justifying here.) Busybody schoolmarms? (I
> don't think that's the chief source of the worst outrage as I have
> noted.)
Everyone driving is not a cager. At least not in the way that you
mean. But if you're talking about just passing them or something that I
don't think it matters much. If you're running stop signs in front of
them, it's another story.
> We all know that many traffic laws don't make as much sense for bikes
> as they do for cars. I was just suggesting (and "... only since [he]
> decided to blame me for outrage directed at others... ") that if all
> "cyclists" did whatever made the most practical sense all the time
> laws notwithstanding, expectations would follow and cagers might be a
> lot less outraged to see it happen.
I would like to say that all cyclists are equipped with infinite wisdom
and were able to do what makes the most practical sense at all times but
I'm afraid that a lot of motorists are already under the impression that
they do that and we see how that's worked out.
I sort of see what you mean but you need to not put it on the motorist
to protect you. I usually treat stop signs as yields and red lights as
stop signs myself, but I try not to force cars to have to lock their
brakes avoiding me. If they are actually getting mad at you just
because you're on a bike and they're stuck in traffic, then that's
something else. They should get a bike.
> Again - all very tongue in cheek and only because that guy was so
> vehement in his explicit disdain for my "attitude". As you may
> imagine, I get plenty of that already :-)
>
Yeah but he's got a point. If you have a motorist in court for hitting
a cyclist, he's going to claim that the rider came out of nowhere and it
wasn't his fault. If someone on the jury just came to court with Dan
doing a wheeljie through a stop in front of him, he may be more open to
the driver's argument. I'm not trying to tell you how to ride, just
saying...
Duane Hebert
<snip>
>> I've also been pretty annoyed myself with a couple riding double in
>> front of me for a mile or so when they could have pulled into single
>> file to let me pass.
>>
>> It's not always an us and them thing. As usual, it depends.
> I'm only talking about *some* of "them" :-)
Glad to hear that because if the bloody plows don't get this 2 feet of
snow out of my road in the morning, I won't be able to get the bloody
car to work. Forget about the bike! At least the skiing has been good.
DirtRoadie
> It's not always an us and them thing. As usual, it depends.
+1
DR
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:a8ed9771-81ec-4fc0...@o8g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
These things only apply if you're riding your bike as transportation,
not for recreation. And, if you're on the road (as opposed to a
dedicated bike lane) and not riding at the prevailing speed of
traffic, you're not reducing traffic congestion, you're creating
more.
Fred
======
That's a common misconception. For those who ride bikes recreationally,
not commuting, a great many do so leaving from their front door (on
their bike). OK, so I'm riding my bike for fun instead of DRIVING to the
beach. I'm riding my bike for fun instead of DRIVING to the health club.
I'm riding my bike for fun instead of a lot of things that are
"recreational" and for which a car is used to get there. Mountain bikes
don't fare so well in this analogy, because people typically drive them
to wherever they're going to be ridden.
The argument about bikes causing congestion is another myth, expecially
in light of efforts at "traffic calming" in many communities as they
attempt to mitigate the damaging effects of car traffic by slowing it
down a bit, which often increases capacity and utility.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
DirtRoadie
> Sure, I'm only talking about situations where I am paying attention
> and there is no interference, impediment, etc. for other traffic -
> certainly no endangerment or taking someone else's right-of-way.
Also + 1
DR
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:4d5803f5$0$10563$742e...@news.sonic.net...
I'm thinking Peter's talking about the self-righteous smugness of many
Prius owners. My suggested jersey could be seen as making the wearer
seem a bit too smug for comfort, thus the comparison.Me? I can't stand
'em (the Prius) because of the way people often drive them.
Dan O
> On 2/13/2011 9:51 PM, Dan O wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > And I don't mean that seeing obedient cyclists is the main reason
> > cagers may expect me to obey the law. Obviously for most people that
> > is just a given expectation. But why should they care if I'm not
> > hurting anyone? (Not justifying here.) Busybody schoolmarms? (I
> > don't think that's the chief source of the worst outrage as I have
> > noted.)
>
> Everyone driving is not a cager. At least not in the way that you
> mean.
Oh but they are. I don't think that word means what you think it
means (to me). A cager is using a vehicle for transportation that
surrounds them like a cage. That's it. Even when I drive one. And
while it has its advantages (e.g. sipping coffee with the heater and
the radio on :-), it sucks!
> But if you're talking about just passing them or something that I
> don't think it matters much. If you're running stop signs in front of
> them, it's another story.
You lost me here. I made it clear that I'm only talking about
situations where my violation puts no one at risk (not even myself),
and offers no interference or impediment to anyone else's travel or
right-of-way.
> > We all know that many traffic laws don't make as much sense for bikes
> > as they do for cars. I was just suggesting (and "... only since [he]
> > decided to blame me for outrage directed at others... ") that if all
> > "cyclists" did whatever made the most practical sense all the time
> > laws notwithstanding, expectations would follow and cagers might be a
> > lot less outraged to see it happen.
>
> I would like to say that all cyclists are equipped with infinite wisdom
> and were able to do what makes the most practical sense at all times but
> I'm afraid that a lot of motorists are already under the impression that
> they do that and we see how that's worked out.
>
> I sort of see what you mean but you need to not put it on the motorist
> to protect you. I usually treat stop signs as yields and red lights as
> stop signs myself, but I try not to force cars to have to lock their
> brakes avoiding me.
(see above... and above... and above)
I'm not gonna blow out in front of two tons of moving steel, either -
frickin' duh! For that matter (I've said before), I rein it in *lots*
of times strictly for PR.
That said, many time I treat the world as my oyster - two-wheeled
anarchy, Baby. You only live once :-)
> If they are actually getting mad at you just
> because you're on a bike and they're stuck in traffic, then that's
> something else. They should get a bike.
>
Exactly!
> > Again - all very tongue in cheek and only because that guy was so
> > vehement in his explicit disdain for my "attitude". As you may
> > imagine, I get plenty of that already :-)
>
> Yeah but he's got a point. If you have a motorist in court for hitting
> a cyclist, he's going to claim that the rider came out of nowhere and it
> wasn't his fault. If someone on the jury just came to court with Dan
> doing a wheeljie through a stop in front of him, he may be more open to
> the driver's argument. I'm not trying to tell you how to ride, just
> saying...
It's a messed up world filled with imperfect people. We can only hope
for reasonable people when we need them.
Chalo
>
> Me? I can't stand
> 'em (the Prius) because of the way people often drive them.
You mean in public? I know! Downright shameless.
NoDannyNo
> I have noticed that after the gas price passes $3/gallon, and as that
> price increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists
> rises at the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist
> is pissed that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off
> when he sees someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is
> in. Thus, he squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to
> frighten you back into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he
> is in. It's not logical of course, because the more people that ride
> bikes, the more gas for him, but they just don't see it like that.
Nah. If gas was free, most people in cars would still hate cyclists.
Always have, always will.
The Typical Mindset of People Driving Cars
Upon seeing a garden variety roadie poser: "What a douchebag. He
probably takes drugs just like that fucker that was humping the Olsen
twins. I'd probably get a medal if I ran his ass over."
Upon seeing a bicycle commuter: "What a dumb fuck. I bet he lost his
license because of a DUI or the repo-man took his car because he
didn't make his payments. "
Upon seeing Just A Guy On A Bike: "What a loser-scumbag twat, I bet
he's on the way to the liquor store for a six-pack and some smokes
when he should be looking for a job."
Upon seeing a kid on a bike: "Aww, how cute. I bet that little turd
can't wait to get his license so he can shitcan that stupid bike."
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
I got to work a couple of weeks ago through 2 feet of un-plowed snow, in
my "ridiculous" [1] truck. [2] Too bad I was not driving a 900cc
micro-car with 12 cm of ground clearance.
[1] Per Lou Holtman
[2]
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/19704682@N08/5281773083/in/set-72157625524578309/>.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
Upon seeing the guy on the recumbent, simply "What the fuck?"
NoDannyNo
BWAAHAHA! How could I have missed that one. Thanks.
Nagurski
> On 2/13/2011 5:36 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>
> > That might make you as popular as Prius owners. You'd probably get more
> > love with a "Drill, baby, drill" shirt.
>
> The reason most people don't like Prius owners is not because of the
> fuel efficiency of the Prius. No one hates VW TDI owners, even though
> some TDI models are far more fuel efficient than the Prius.
Indeed. It is the intense smugness of Prius owners that breeds the
contempt.
Nagurski
> I have been riding for years in traffic, only a couple times did an operator
> of a vehicle ever try to use their car, as you describe.
> 1. ride as far to the right as possible.
> 2. try to ride with the flow of traffic.
> 3. keep your eyes open, watch ahead for danger.
> 4. think small, a car may not see you. Never insist on right of way.
> 5. ride safely.
Well, geewhiz and by golly, Pastor Greg! Thank you, thank you, thank
you for the lesson on how to safely navigate on one of them there
velocipedes!
Fredmaster of Brainerd
> On Feb 13, 1:27 pm, Fred <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 13, 9:18 am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Cager resentment is a real phenomenon. I have said so again and
> > > again. I believe it is a significant factor in their level of outrage
> > > at seeing me, say, blow a stop - even though blowing said stop has no
> > > effect on their or anyone else's traffic situation.
>
> > I despise your attitude, that it's okay to blow stop signs just 'cause
> > you're not affecting anyone. You ARE affecting folks, everyone else
> > on bikes, that is. Your actions not only affect the level of outrage,
> > in large part actions like yours are the cause of the outrage.
>
> Whence comes this outrage, though? Can you offer a reason? (Please
> make it a reasonable one.) Is it simply the righteous indignation of
> busybody schoolmarms? Maybe sometimes. My point here is that I think
> it is often a transferrance and venting of self-imposed frustration
> and misery (such as the cost of fuel) inherent in their chosen mode of
> transport.
In my neighborhood, I constantly come up to a
stop sign at which a car is waiting, I slow to a crawl,
before reaching the stop sign, and they just sit there.
I slow to a near stop. Finally I just stop but am
still balancing the bike. They still won't go.
Eventually I give up and have to clip out and
put my foot down. Then finally either they go,
or I'm forced to peer through their tinted windows
to find the driver is trying to wave me across,
never mind that I just want them to go so I can
go after them, when I know the coast is clear.
You know why they do this? Because people like
you have trained the drivers that bicyclists are
unpredictable space-cases who will blow right
through stop signs, and that they need to sit there
like slugs to avoid collisions. This is an especially
large problem here because I live near a large
university with clueless bicycling undergrads.
But still, it's basically the fault of your attitude.
I don't care if you roll through a stop sign after
slowing and checking. I do that too. But quit
blowing the stop signs and pretending it's anything
other than laziness.
Thanks,
Ben
Duane Hebert
Well the plow came this morning but he plowed a 4 foot wall at the end
of my drive. He came early enough that the freezing rain on top of the
snow made it a lot of fun to move. Oh well, only 3 or 4 more months and
I'll be riding again...
Anton Berlin
> "Cicero Venatio" <jazzyb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:6LadnWMBQpp99srQ...@earthlink.com...>I have noticed that after the gas price passes $3/gallon, and as that price
> >increases past that point, the anger of motorists towards cyclists rises at
> >the same rate. My theory on why that is, is because a motorist is pissed
> >that the gas price is high, and then really gets pissed off when he sees
> >someone that has figured out an escape from the trap he is in. Thus, he
> >squeezes you a little bit more as he goes by, trying to frighten you back
> >into your car so you'll be in the same predicament he is in. It's not
> >logical of course, because the more people that ride bikes, the more gas
> >for him, but they just don't see it like that.
>
> journalism, in other words, you try to come up with something outrageous,
> you made this up.
> But in reply to your post, I would say. When you are out in traffic on a
> bicycle, you have to be aware that you are the smallest vehicle on wheels
> out there. Drivers do not necessarily see you. Drive as close to the right
> as possible. Try to ride with the flow of traffic. If the speed limit is
> 35mph, and you can ride 25mph, traffic is only passing you by 10mph. If cars
> are passing you at a high rate of speed, and you are going 10mph in traffic
> that is passing a weaving bicycle, at 25mph then you should avoid traffic.
> Your biggest defense is to keep your eyes open ahead of you, look into car
> windows and look for a driver who could open the driver's door. Make room in
> traffic or signal the car behind you with a hand signal, that there is
> caution ahead(that driver opening a door), and pass with caution.
> I have been riding for years in traffic, only a couple times did an operator
> of a vehicle ever try to use their car, as you describe.
> 1. ride as far to the right as possible.
> 2. try to ride with the flow of traffic.
> 3. keep your eyes open, watch ahead for danger.
> 4. think small, a car may not see you. Never insist on right of way.
> 5. ride safely.
Ride far as right to the possible is asking to be hit. TAKE THE LANE
- OWN IT and argue with cops and dicks in cars that there is debris,
glass gutters etc and your safest path is one the FORCES a car to slow
down and go around you. BE VISIBLE
You're god damn stupid telling anyone to ride as far as the right as
possible. FUCKING CUNT
Duane Hebert
> On Feb 13, 7:05 pm, Duane Hebert<s...@flarn2.com> wrote:
>> On 2/13/2011 9:51 PM, Dan O wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> And I don't mean that seeing obedient cyclists is the main reason
>>> cagers may expect me to obey the law. Obviously for most people that
>>> is just a given expectation. But why should they care if I'm not
>>> hurting anyone? (Not justifying here.) Busybody schoolmarms? (I
>>> don't think that's the chief source of the worst outrage as I have
>>> noted.)
>>
>> Everyone driving is not a cager. At least not in the way that you
>> mean.
>
> Oh but they are. I don't think that word means what you think it
> means (to me). A cager is using a vehicle for transportation that
> surrounds them like a cage. That's it. Even when I drive one. And
> while it has its advantages (e.g. sipping coffee with the heater and
> the radio on :-), it sucks!
Cager sounds derogatory to me so I assume it to mean an IDIOT in a car.
As far as advantages, I find them to be very few except during the winter.
>> But if you're talking about just passing them or something that I
>> don't think it matters much. If you're running stop signs in front of
>> them, it's another story.
>
> You lost me here. I made it clear that I'm only talking about
> situations where my violation puts no one at risk (not even myself),
> and offers no interference or impediment to anyone else's travel or
> right-of-way.
I guess I missed that point. I have a hard time imagining a situation
where I can blow a stop without causing anyone any problems. There's
too much traffic here unless I'm out in the country or it's very early
in the morning. If there's no one around, I just ignore the stop as
well. Pretty much the same with lights. It's just not that normal of a
situation.
>>> We all know that many traffic laws don't make as much sense for bikes
>>> as they do for cars. I was just suggesting (and "... only since [he]
>>> decided to blame me for outrage directed at others... ") that if all
>>> "cyclists" did whatever made the most practical sense all the time
>>> laws notwithstanding, expectations would follow and cagers might be a
>>> lot less outraged to see it happen.
>>
>> I would like to say that all cyclists are equipped with infinite wisdom
>> and were able to do what makes the most practical sense at all times but
>> I'm afraid that a lot of motorists are already under the impression that
>> they do that and we see how that's worked out.
>>
>> I sort of see what you mean but you need to not put it on the motorist
>> to protect you. I usually treat stop signs as yields and red lights as
>> stop signs myself, but I try not to force cars to have to lock their
>> brakes avoiding me.
>
> (see above... and above... and above)
>
> I'm not gonna blow out in front of two tons of moving steel, either -
> frickin' duh! For that matter (I've said before), I rein it in *lots*
> of times strictly for PR.
>
> That said, many time I treat the world as my oyster - two-wheeled
> anarchy, Baby. You only live once :-)
Yeah, I don't mean to criticize your zest. Just don't piss off my wife!
I can do that easily enough on my own.
>> If they are actually getting mad at you just
>> because you're on a bike and they're stuck in traffic, then that's
>> something else. They should get a bike.
>>
>
> Exactly!
>>> Again - all very tongue in cheek and only because that guy was so
>>> vehement in his explicit disdain for my "attitude". As you may
>>> imagine, I get plenty of that already :-)
>>
>> Yeah but he's got a point. If you have a motorist in court for hitting
>> a cyclist, he's going to claim that the rider came out of nowhere and it
>> wasn't his fault. If someone on the jury just came to court with Dan
>> doing a wheeljie through a stop in front of him, he may be more open to
>> the driver's argument. I'm not trying to tell you how to ride, just
>> saying...
>
> It's a messed up world filled with imperfect people. We can only hope
> for reasonable people when we need them.
In my experience there are many reasonable people but not enough to
compensate for the idiots.
SMS
I got a Prius as a rental car once at Avis. It was all they had left.
Normally there's a big up-charge for a Prius. I was dismayed but had no
choice. I wanted to go get a sign that said "Rental" and put it in the
rear window.
Michael Press
<16df7edb-b7ce-4374...@s29g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
I wave the car through. It works.
--
Michael Press
Duane Hebert
Yes, for whatever the reason, whether they're afraid I'm going to blow
the stop or they are just trying to be overly kind or something, I
prefer to wave them through. Too many times thinking that they were
letting me go when they weren't. Cleat fumbling, near falls etc. If
I've gotten to the point where I'm actually stopped, I wave them
through. Even if I'm going slow enough to where they could go and I
could prevent uncleating, I will do the same.
The usual problem for me is that I get to the stop first, think that
I've made eye contact and proceed, only to realize that they're day
dreaming or something when the go anyway. Those I "talk" to.
Simply Fred
> You're god damn stupid telling anyone to ride as far as the right as
> possible. FUCKING CUNT
Unless he's from the civilized world where we drive and ride on the LHS.
Peter Cole
I wave, too, but some people are just determined to be polite. Where it
gets awkward is when one car stops and there's more than one lane...
What about "T" intersections? I think this guy is obeying the letter,
but not the spirit, of the law. By stopping where he does, he's only
inconveniencing other cyclists. I favor "Idaho stops", where the law
allows cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs.
James
Ugh - I'd move to more temperate climes.
Had a fun race on Saturday afternoon, and very pleasant ride Sunday
morning. Low 20's C and sunshine. I got a little sunburn!
JS.
Duane Hebert
grrr.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
wrote:
> "SMS" <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
> > On 2/13/2011 5:36 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>
> >> That might make you as popular as Prius owners. You'd probably get
> >> more
> >> love with a "Drill, baby, drill" shirt.
>
> > The reason most people don't like Prius owners is not because of the
> > fuel efficiency of the Prius. No one hates VW TDI owners, even though
> > some TDI models are far more fuel efficient than the Prius.
>
> I'm thinking Peter's talking about the self-righteous smugness of many
> Prius owners. My suggested jersey could be seen as making the wearer
> seem a bit too smug for comfort, thus the comparison.Me? I can't stand
> 'em (the Prius) because of the way people often drive them.
You people are freaks.
Cars are not people. A car can't be smug. One can
drive a car like an asshole, so I suppose one can
drive a car smugly, but I can't really figure out how
that would visibly manifest itself.
When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
I have been cut off by people with liberal greenie
bumperstickers and shown courtesy by drivers of
battered old pickups.
The one thing I've noticed about Priuses is that they are
more likely than other cars to sport a bike rack. That
might not be a vote of confidence (bike rack owners can
cut you off too).
Car drivers hate other brands of car, and all cyclists,
not for rational reasons but because driving in traffic is
an inhuman activity that is founded on impatience and
makes otherwise kind, calm people direct hate against
their fellow obstacles, I mean human beings. And yes,
I have exactly the same feelings when driving.
Fredmaster Ben
SMS
> When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
> the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
> of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
> cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
It's stereotyping to be sure. Volvo drivers and Saturn drivers tend to
be poor drivers, it's got nothing to do with the cars per se, just the
personality of the type of person that are drawn to buy those makes of
cars. OTOH, BMW drivers tend to be pretty good drivers.
AMuzi
I beat my 1972 BMW 2002 like a bat out of hell and Gene
Daniels is a Volvo driver.
next theory?
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Chalo
>
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> >
> > I'm thinking Peter's talking about the self-righteous smugness of many
> > Prius owners. My suggested jersey could be seen as making the wearer
> > seem a bit too smug for comfort, thus the comparison.Me? I can't stand
> > 'em (the Prius) because of the way people often drive them.
>
> Normally there's a big up-charge for a Prius. I was dismayed but had no
> choice. I wanted to go get a sign that said "Rental" and put it in the
> rear window.
I think it must be a California thing, where hybrid drivers get
freeway privileges that are in my casual observation unwarranted.
Here in Austin, which is pretty Prius-crazy, there is nothing in
particular to distinguish drivers of Priuses (Priora?) from drivers of
other similarly sized cars. There's way more behavioral distinction
among drivers of BMWs or full-sized pickups.
Oddly, I've personally observed a tendency towards deviation from
normal sanity by drivers of Kias. That could be a fluke of my own
observations maybe, but I would not have expected it.
Chalo
James
> SMS wrote:
>> On 2/14/2011 1:33 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>>
>>> When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
>>> the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
>>> of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
>>> cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
>>
>> It's stereotyping to be sure. Volvo drivers and Saturn drivers tend to
>> be poor drivers, it's got nothing to do with the cars per se, just the
>> personality of the type of person that are drawn to buy those makes of
>> cars. OTOH, BMW drivers tend to be pretty good drivers.
>
> I beat my 1972 BMW 2002 like a bat out of hell and Gene Daniels is a
> Volvo driver.
>
> next theory?
Outliers.
JS.
Jay Beattie
Alas, privileges are coming to an end (maybe).
http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/10/02/california-solo-hybrid-drivers-to-lose-much-loved-carpool-lane-privilege/
-- Jay Beattie.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
Confirmation bias.
We note examples that confirm our beliefs
and fail to remember those that do not.
The one thing I know (or "know," as in it's another
example of confimation bias) is that BMW drivers
think they are pretty good drivers. Obviously I can't
tell whether someone thinks he is a good driver
just by watching him; this is based on how BMW
drivers talk about driving.
Fredmaster Ben
Actually, I don't know many BMW drivers, I just
like tweaking them. Also, 2002's are cool.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On 2/14/2011 4:14 PM, James wrote:
>> Duane Hebert wrote:
I do not miss Quebec City winters.
--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On Feb 13, 8:24 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"<Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>> "SMS"<scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote in message
>>> On 2/13/2011 5:36 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>>
>>>> That might make you as popular as Prius owners. You'd probably get
>>>> more
>>>> love with a "Drill, baby, drill" shirt.
>>
>>> The reason most people don't like Prius owners is not because of the
>>> fuel efficiency of the Prius. No one hates VW TDI owners, even though
>>> some TDI models are far more fuel efficient than the Prius.
>>
>> I'm thinking Peter's talking about the self-righteous smugness of many
>> Prius owners. My suggested jersey could be seen as making the wearer
>> seem a bit too smug for comfort, thus the comparison.Me? I can't stand
>> 'em (the Prius) because of the way people often drive them.
>
> You people are freaks.
>
> Cars are not people. A car can't be smug. One can
> drive a car like an asshole, so I suppose one can
> drive a car smugly, but I can't really figure out how
> that would visibly manifest itself.
>
> When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
> the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
> of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
> cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
Some cars are inherently obscene, in that only by exploitation of others
can they be afforded.
>
> I have been cut off by people with liberal greenie
> bumperstickers and shown courtesy by drivers of
> battered old pickups.
You can make certain judgments fairly about people by the bumper
stickers and other adornments (e.g. confederate flags) they put on their
vehicles.
>
> The one thing I've noticed about Priuses is that they are
> more likely than other cars to sport a bike rack. That
> might not be a vote of confidence (bike rack owners can
> cut you off too).
>
> Car drivers hate other brands of car, and all cyclists,
> not for rational reasons but because driving in traffic is
> an inhuman activity that is founded on impatience and
> makes otherwise kind, calm people direct hate against
> their fellow obstacles, I mean human beings. And yes,
> I have exactly the same feelings when driving.
I hate recreational cyclists I see during the day when I am driving for
work - they should be slaving away too!!!
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> SMS wrote:
>> On 2/14/2011 1:33 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>>
>>> When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
>>> the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
>>> of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
>>> cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
>>
>> It's stereotyping to be sure. Volvo drivers and Saturn drivers tend to
>> be poor drivers, it's got nothing to do with the cars per se, just the
>> personality of the type of person that are drawn to buy those makes of
>> cars. OTOH, BMW drivers tend to be pretty good drivers.
>
> I beat my 1972 BMW 2002 like a bat out of hell and Gene Daniels is a
> Volvo driver.
>
> next theory?
>
People with straight pipes are inconsiderate jerks.
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
Indeed.
Jay Beattie
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 2/14/2011 3:32 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2/14/2011 4:14 PM, James wrote:
> >> Duane Hebert wrote:
> >>>> On 2/13/2011 9:09 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
> >>>>> On 2/13/2011 9:54 PM, Dan O wrote:
>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>> I've also been pretty annoyed myself with a couple riding double in
> >>>>>>> front of me for a mile or so when they could have pulled into single
> >>>>>>> file to let me pass.
>
> >>>>>>> It's not always an us and them thing. As usual, it depends.
> >>>>>> I'm only talking about *some* of "them" :-)
> >>>>> Glad to hear that because if the bloody plows don't get this 2 feet of
> >>>>> snow out of my road in the morning, I won't be able to get the bloody
> >>>>> car to work. Forget about the bike! At least the skiing has been good.
>
> >>>> I got to work a couple of weeks ago through 2 feet of un-plowed
> >>>> snow, in
> >>>> my "ridiculous" [1] truck. [2] Too bad I was not driving a 900cc
> >>>> micro-car with 12 cm of ground clearance.
>
> >>>> [1] Per Lou Holtman
> >>>> [2]
>
> >>> Well the plow came this morning but he plowed a 4 foot wall at the end
> >>> of my drive. He came early enough that the freezing rain on top of the
> >>> snow made it a lot of fun to move. Oh well, only 3 or 4 more months
> >>> and I'll be riding again...
>
> >> Ugh - I'd move to more temperate climes.
>
> >> Had a fun race on Saturday afternoon, and very pleasant ride Sunday
> >> morning. Low 20's C and sunshine. I got a little sunburn!
>
> > grrr.
>
> I do not miss Quebec City winters.
Dude, you live in Iowa. http://thegazette.com/2011/02/02/new-winter-storm-photos-from-cedar-rapids-iowa-city/
How much better could it be? -- Jay Beattie.
Dan O
In my neighborhood, too... and everywhere else I go. Exactly the same
deal (with variations, of course, as I'm sure you experience). It's
very aggravating.
> ... never mind that I just want them to go so I can
> go after them, when I know the coast is clear.
Same here.
> You know why they do this? Because people like
> you have trained the drivers that bicyclists are
> unpredictable space-cases who will blow right
> through stop signs, and that they need to sit there
> like slugs to avoid collisions.
People like me? And just what am I like, exactly? Someone who people
will collide with unless they sit like slugs? Is that what you think?
Are you saying that motorists observing me blow a stop - where there
is no risk of conflict with other traffic - will assume that this
means I (or somebody else altogether?!) would do the same thing willy-
nilly into the path of oncoming traffic? Does that make any sense at
all? Is that reasonable? Should I be going out of my way at every
turn to assuage such idiotic assumptions?
I do *not* cut in front of anyone with either the right-of-way *or*
the potential to take me out.
> This is an especially
> large problem here because I live near a large
> university with clueless bicycling undergrads.
So, if nothing else, matriculation at this university provides
graduates a clue WRT bicycling :-)
> But still, it's basically the fault of your attitude.
What attitude is that? That it's ever okay to blow a stop if anybody
might see me do it? Perhaps I haven't been clear.
I do not blow stops unless:
1) I can see that I've totally got it made...
2) ... without unacceptable risk to my own safety...
3) ... and without interfering or impeding anyone else's travel or
right-of-way.
(And of course it should go without saying at the top fo the list,
without endangering anyone else.)
I do not blow stops incautiously.
I even take into consideration whether I will be freaking anybody out
- safety and interference aside - and try not to do that.
>
> I don't care if you roll through a stop sign after
> slowing and checking. I do that too.
Dude, I don't know what it's like where you ride, but are you saying
you *never* just note the presence of a stop sign, and then -
satisfied through observation that the potential traffic conflicts
it's there to control are not in play - just ride on through and be
done with it?
Sure, motorists could make the same argument, but when they are
mistaken it's a whole different ball game.
There are plenty of people who will flip their lid two blocks away at
the sight of me blowing a stop because I just broke the rules of
Parcheesi and that's cheating and they're just honest, compliant, god-
fearing, law-abiding citizens and can't abide such "cheating". The
only way to mostly appease and be predictable for these folks is to
come to a full and complete stop every time (play Parcheesi by the
rules).
Here's another example that I know a lot of people won't like, but
what about when you're approaching an intersection at speed (not
saying *couldn't* stop), your pre-assessment tells you that you've got
it made but if you slow down it's going to be a cluster**** by the
time you get there. You could slow and then probably have to stop and
then trackstand while the cagers look at you waiting for you to unclip
before waving you through (and sometimes this is the right thing to do
- depends on a lot of variables), or you could blast the f*****r well
clear and be gone and out of the picture before they ever get there.
This latter move would in fact be doing everyone a favor from a
traffic standpoint, but yes, it might totally outrage some of the
cranky ones who see it ("Hey, you're not carnival personnel!" :-)
Life is like that. You only live once. Until somebody can give me a
definitive purpose I'm kind of stuck having to make my own way, and -
while recognizing the virtue - my top pick ATM is not universal
appeasement of everyone else ("I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." :-) and
their (in my view unreasonable) expectations.
> But quit
> blowing the stop signs and pretending it's anything
> other than laziness.
And what exactly is your "roll through a stop sign after slowing and
checking" if not laziness? Did I even suggest that I don't slow and
check if there's any (practical) reason to do so?
It takes me upwards of two hours to get to work as it is. Even having
developed some pretty great routes, I encounter dozens of stops every
day. Some of the best routes have *more* stop signs, but less traffic
(very often essentially *no* traffic). I ride through multiple small
towns at 5-6:00 AM when you can hear the nearest car a mile away.
Even in town where cars are present, I can usually assess any
potential problem as I approach. Some places require far more
heightened care than others. There are some wicked places that no
rational person (sane or otherwise) would just blow without slowing
and checking.
Still, I do take it well beyond the "tree falls in the forest"
scenario, and people do witness me blowing stops. I wish they
wouldn't freak out about it, but I won't let their hangups dictate my
life.
I do not blithely blast onward. I do what makes sense in each
different situation - sometimes even just for the PR - slowing or
stopping more than is really practical or necessary, but I won't live
my life with the primary objective of appeasing everyone (can't
anyway). I take care of myself, trying not to trespass or impose upon
others, and I wish they'd just watch out for their own never mind -
live and let live. I'm not messing with them. Their own minds are
messing with them.
Oh, and I live in a part of the world with lots of fine abrasive soil
and rain. Part of my "laziness" is not liking to service and replace
rims and brake pads any more than I really have to.
>
> Thanks,
> Ben
Sure, and thank *you* for what strikes me as a leap to judgment. I
may be a jerk, but please don't categorize me with your "clueless
bicycling undergrads".
Anton Berlin
I had an orange one - and an older 1600 at one point. Loved the
visibility from those cars - not a blind spot in them.
Andy
> > As far as the OP's claim: correlation isn't causation. Seems to be
> > more facile 'merican thinking. Gas is cheap, this isn't the UK.
>
> ----------
> Let's try another example then. After the 911 attacks on the World
> trade Center, hundreds of people died hitting the pavement after jumping
> out of the windows of those skyscrapers because fires stopped a normal
> escape. Now what do you think a lot of people working in other
> skyscrapers thought about all of these jumpers at the World Trade
> Center? Yep, they should have had a parachute, and some business did
> create a parachute that you can buy, and store in your 80th floor
> office. So now for the question, let's say you work on the same floor
> as the guy who has a parachute, would you be resentful towards him that
> he would save himself, and leave you to your fate stuck in a burning
> skyscraper, if that were ever to happen? This is the same feeling a
> motorist feels towards a commuter on a bicycle, after the gas price
> rises above a certain point.
> ------------
Your logic makes no sense.
I would expend energy in watching out for distracted drivers.
In the last 6 months I have developed a very loud yell.
It's pretty "cathartic" to see the look on the drivers face.
Andy
Tºm Shermªn™ °_°
> On Feb 14, 5:21 pm, T�m Sherm�n� �_�<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
Yep, that was the day I *needed* my 4WD truck to get to work.
James
> I hate recreational cyclists I see during the day when I am driving for
> work - they should be slaving away too!!!
>
+ 1x10^9 (is that how it's done?)
JS.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
>
> Sure, and thank *you* for what strikes me as a leap to judgment. I
> may be a jerk, but please don't categorize me with your "clueless
> bicycling undergrads".
For purposes of this discussion (what influences
cager behavior) it doesn't matter what I think. I have
enough time on a bike that my opinion of cyclists
as a class is not determined by stop-sign-blowing.
It matters what the cagers think. And the cagers can't
tell the difference between your carefully considered
stop-sign-blowing and the undergrads' clueless
version. It's true that the undergrads are more likely
to actually make them jam on the brakes than you are,
but they can't tell the difference. Unless they see you
every day and note "Oh, that's the guy who only blows
stop signs when I'm at least 50 yards away."
Like most drivers, they apply simple defensive rules -
cyclists are unpredictable and may blow stop signs, QED.
It's like the way I give U-Haul trucks a wide berth.
Of course, the U-Haul truck _may_ be driven by a guy
who drives trucks every day, but the likelihood is that
it's driven by someone who doesn't and isn't sure where
the right side of his large vehicle is. A difference is
that rental truck drivers aren't making a conscious choice
to be bad, while stop sign blowers are making a choice.
BTW, I do at least slow for each stop sign, even the
sleepiest. I don't slow to a crawl if it's a transparently
safe intersection. But if some car is far away and it
looks like I could get through before them if I blow
through the sign like a maniac, forget it, I'll slow. I
have to consider the possibility that the car is going
to blow through the sign like a maniac, as well.
Always assume everyone on the road is
paying less attention than you,
Fredmaster Ben
Duane Hebert
Duane Hebert
> On 2/14/2011 3:32 PM, Duane Hebert wrote:
>> On 2/14/2011 4:14 PM, James wrote:
>>> Duane Hebert wrote:
I they weren't so long... Skiing helps but the day to day gets old
pretty fast.
Duane Hebert
> Always assume everyone on the road is
> paying less attention than you,
+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
SMS
> On Feb 14, 3:40 pm, SMS<scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/14/2011 1:33 PM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>>
>>> When on the road I judge a car and the behavior of
>>> the person inside by how it moves, not by what I think
>>> of the brand or what its owners say to me at fancy
>>> cocktail parties. Yes, that's even true for BMWs.
>>
>> It's stereotyping to be sure. Volvo drivers and Saturn drivers tend to
>> be poor drivers, it's got nothing to do with the cars per se, just the
>> personality of the type of person that are drawn to buy those makes of
>> cars. OTOH, BMW drivers tend to be pretty good drivers.
>
> Confirmation bias.
>
> We note examples that confirm our beliefs
> and fail to remember those that do not.
Actually not true. I know some Volvo owners that are excellent drivers,
and even they note that the driving behavior of Volvo drivers in general
leaves something to be desired.
In the mid 1990's there was a web site called "Highway 17 Hall of Shame"
where a commuter (in the passenger seat) took photos of cars on the
highway from Santa Cruz to San Jose. At one point he went and did a test
drive of a Volvo to see if there was something actually wrong with the
vehicles, or if it was really the drivers.
The archive of the Volvo test drive is here:
<http://web.archive.org/web/19990128105454/got.net/~egallant/road_test.html>