What I had got when it blew up
danf
below is what I had before it became public those leftover meds where
found in the trash, as agreed. I want to stress again that we shouldn't
use it, cos I think I can finish it with him, even though he's cold now.
I know the cycle is almost past now, but we've waited this far and so we
can wait till Vuelta just as well.
On the other thing I'll send the pics lateron, need to tackle all my SD
media first.
D.
----
/It is the second rest day of this year's TdF, Alberto Contador just put
the hammer down and looks like a sure winner 7 days from now. After
establishing the contact years ago, we finally are able to interview one
of the participants about doping and what it means to him, the sport and
the fans./
*DF: We agreed on total anonymity, but we still want to indicate to our
readers where in the realm of cycling this is coming from.*
BL: OK.
*DF: So would it be fair to say that while you are not one of the
contenders in any of the major tours, you've had some success as a
professional cyclist in a couple of teams over the years and people
following the sport would recognize your name?*
BL: That is fair, I guess (laughs).
*DF: We have been trying to get an interview with you for more than two
years now, why did you agree to talk to us about this now?*
BL: Well, you have to realize that the pressure in the last years has
been especially high...
*DF: The pressure of getting caught?*
BL: Yes. But now a rhythm has been found, and it is more secure to talk.
*DF: A rhythm?*
BL: In terms of dealing with the controls.
*DF: Please, elaborate.*
BL: Well, after 2006 the rules on where and when we could be tested got
crazy in terms of what it meant for our lifestyles, and also in terms of
planning the – you know, medical manipulations.
*DF: Sure.*
BL: ... because more than ever we had to factor the masking of it all
into the equation. But obviously it is more predictable now when one
will likely be tested, and there are secure masking techniques too. And
even if they found something – it is all indirect, the detection methods
I mean. They can say: this indicator is off and so is this, but they
can't say or even prove what is used, when it is being used and how.
*DF: But sometimes people do get caught...*
BL: Yeah, but recently? On what? They are concentrating on the rhEPO and
the CERA, and it took them years to develop a test for it. I know it is
cocky, but they are farther behind than they were three years ago, and I
know I can pee in as many cups as they want and have them draw blood on
a fairly regular basis – they might see the indicators move, but they
wouldn't be able to say why, they haven't the faintest idea. And even if
they did, they still had to prove anything, and we made that next to
impossible.
*DF: You say "we". Are you talking about your team?*
BL: No, after Festina the thing shifted away from the teams. I am
talking about the physicians and the cyclists.
*DF: "The cyclists"?*
BL: Well, those who like to compete.
*DF: OK, so in this year's peloton of the TdF, do you know of others who
are "medically manipulated".*
BL: Well nobody /knows/ about anyone, but it is safe to assume that
everyone here is manipulated.
*DF: Everyone? There have been people who we expected to compete like
Evans or Sastre who are not really doing that now.*
BL: But this is where you people are off: if someone climbs up to
Verbier like Contador did, he must be manipulating, but if they do like
Menchov (/who lost 11 minutes on that stage on Contador, ed./), they are
not? No. Look, I can only talk about what I am doing, but I would be
foolish to assume that what the medical people do for me they only do
for me and a few select others just I happen to know. The expertise and
all, the medication – that only develops if a) they have to gain
massively and b) they had tons of experience. And the riders – think
about it. First of all you have to /make/ it to the tour, ok? The team
is bigger than the 9 guys each team is allowed to bring, and usually,
unless you are happy with like, the 6-days or 3-days type of races or
you got a slacker contract, you want to be one of those 9 people. And in
the tour you need to present yourself, because of course it is not
totally out of the realm that some idiot is careless and removes your
whole team from the equation, because the sponsors are wary and easily
scared off, and you have to find a new contract. Look at that guy from
that German team (/German equipe Gerolsteiners manager Michael Holczer,
ed./) who was like all over the press all the time "My team is clean"
and whatnot. And then they get to his two top guys and poof the whole
thing explodes around him and the other riders, and the sponsor drops
out and the team is dead instantly.
*DF: So you are saying everyone who is riding this TdF is manipulating?*
BL: I'd say if you don't assume that then you're massively naive.
*DF: Ok, so let's talk about how this works, medically. *
BL: Well I won't tell you what we use there; I want to keep riding a few
years still.
*DF: Well not in terms then of what is used, but how and when, and how
you factor in controls and, most importantly for you, I guess, the
desired results.*
BL: Hmm. (pause). Well I will tell you this: The desired results can be
achieved much more easily than 5 years ago, because the stuff can push
you for over 4 weeks, even two months now. So you can really mask that
easily, you choose a time when you do the bulk of the medical stuff in
which the rest of your training and your life situation would possibly
explain if certain indicators were off.
*DF: Can you give us an example?*
BL: Say you do something that drives up your haemoglobin, then you do
that when it would be higher than usual anyway, because of high altitude
training maybe, so you could explain it if need be. But that is not the
extend of it, and I won't go into that.
*DF: The newer stuff.*
BL: Right.
*DF: So that is the long-term stuff, what about situations like Landis'
thing in 2006 where he used testosterone to come back on that stage
right there, on the spot?*
BL: That is manageable too, but Landis was desperate and not thinking
clearly. He had lost eight minutes, and you can gain those back with
manipulation, as shown by Landis, but not without /obvious/ manipulation
– as shown by Landis. You can probably kind of make sure that you are
competitive even when you might not feel that good, you know what I
mean? Something that makes you just good enough not to lose too much
time. But the risk is obviously higher, and you got to do a
risk-vs.-reward thingie. I don't do that, because, well, let's face it –
I would still not get anywhere close to what the best do on the steep
climbs. And I need to feed a family and I need a contract next year, so
getting caught is not an option. And also, even though I block this out
really and I suspect most of the other riders do to: It is dangerous to
do too much. Nobody is going to die like that guy on the Ventoux (/Tom
Simpson 1967, ed./), but long-term the risk is there. I guess other
people smoke and live with the fear of cancer; we do this and have ours.
*DF: You say you are not competitive with the best even with doping?*
BL: Yeah. I could probably overdo it, but I don't do that, as I said. It
is kind of funny: I believe the final results would be pretty much the
same without the manipulation, and you still have good days and bad
days. But as long as one guy does it, all others will do it as well,
because otherwise that guy would have the ultimate advantage. But what
we do is not just the manipulation, it is actually, if you look at the
whole plan, not an overly big part. It is obviously important to like,
have the body in terms of leverage and such, and to have a good training
plan, the right nutrition, and to have the will to torture yourself.
Without all of that, you can still manipulate, but it won't get you
anywhere.
*DF: OK, let's get back to the organization of it all. You said it is
not the teams who organize it.*
BL: Well at least no longer in the established ones. If you're hailing
from Kazakhstan the story is different maybe. Anyway: The teams need to
maintain deniability, mainly for the sponsors.
*DF: There is no pressure from the sponsors?*
BL: Well not overtly. Obviously they want to see good results and their
name represented properly, but those that are in it for a bit longer
already can lay a bit lower, they - no one says this, but it is kind of
obvious – prioritize no one gets caught over a prestigious win. Those
with less of a history seem to not trust the whole thing anyway, in
terms of business sense, you know, so they prefer being represented
properly now rather than in say, three years – who knows what the image
is then? But they do the "don't ask, don't tell" thing.
*DF: So what is the image now?*
BL: Well I guess some of the media know what's happening, in general I
mean and they are frustrated they can't prove anything, so it got a bit
unfriendly and focused on only the manipulations, especially with the
scapegoats like Astana or Valverde or Boonen. And they try to push this
negative image.
But I know there are loads of people out there, fans, who love the
sport, and they don't care. Look at how many people still come to the
tour, that hasn't changed at all. They don't care, and actually they
don't want to care. They want the spectacle, they want to see those guys
who race up the hill and also those who can't follow, they want the
soloists and the sprints, they want it all. And that only changes
sometimes when too much is reported or when too many people get caught,
but not for long either. I mean I know that people actually climb up the
famous ascends like the Tourmalet or Alpe d'Huez or the Ventoux on their
bikes to feel what it's like, and they use stuff like EPO themselves,
just to feel that kick they imagine we must feel.(Pause) I still write
plenty autographs, I am not worried, what I am saying is that from a
sponsors perspective that is maybe not quite so clear.
*DF: OK, so back to, sorry for this, but back to it not being the teams
who drive this.*
BL: Well they don't need to, it is kind of like they used to, but riders
understood how it all works better and better, and the more industrious
among us probably make a nice buck off us now. Like, I have my medical
personnel that I kind of got recommended by another rider I rode with in
a team a few years back. And they coordinate the training plans, give
input and organize the medical side of it. Before, I took what I got
from the team, but it was simply not as tailored as it is now.
*DF: How many physicians play in this game?*
BL: (frowns) I don't know. First of all: I don't want to know. Then: I
can't, you know, "say" this, but you think they only look after the
cyclists? So I presume, you know, most of them also do not want to get
caught. Like, I have all my medical records. The doctor does not keep
any records, and, you know, the blood isn't labelled by your dog's name
anymore.
*DF: But how is that possible – they have to get the medications from
somewhere, and that must be traceable?*
BL: This is the other thing riders don't want to know. I am well aware
that if these people order massive amounts of stuff, there should be a
track of records. But this means it probably goes through backchannels
or worse, comes from sources I don't want to know of. I don't usually
take the newest of things, I let the more crazy guys do that, mostly the
younger ones who still want it all, you know. After a season or so, if
everyone stayed healthy, I will use stuff as well. But for the doctors
it means they stay clean. The equipment can usually be hidden, I mean:
who counts syringes, right? The more expensive stuff – well let's say
take a look at Austria. (/he presumably meant the fact that Bernhard
Kohl, the Austrian rider who got caught doping during the TdF last year,
co-financed various expensive medical equipment with other athletes and
his physician, ed./)
*DF: So if say your physician got raided, you'd stay undetected?*
BL: As long as he shuts up, sure, and he's got every reason to. There is
nothing there that ties me to him. They would have to do DNA testing to
match blood samples if they actually found any, and that won't get out
of court for a few years to come, certainly till I am done riding. It is
harder in some countries than in others.
*DF: Are you aware of the, excuse me, schizophrenic nature of what
you're saying? On one hand you are astonished about anyone not believing
in manipulation and on the other hand you feel completely save?*
BL: How is that schizophrenic? Everyone knows the game that is played.
There are those, with legal power, who for some reason want to ban it
(/doping, ed./) all, and for them we have to put on the hide and seek
and the legal armour and the secrecy, but it is just a game. But they
did have successes, and, maybe I am clouded because I am inside, but I'd
think it's obvious for anyone what is going on. If amateurs do it just
for kicks, why would you believe when there is actual stakes, money,
it's not happening? /That's/ probably schizophrenic.
*DF: So are you saying doping should be legal?*
BL: I don't know to be honest. There is medical risk and not everyone
who is young understands this or even gets a choice, look at what
happened in the East before 1989. It's not totally impossible in some
sport somewhere that crazy coaches or ruthless parents would not damage
young athletes. On the other hand: That's probably happening today just
the same. Legalization would make things easier by far: Lots of money
could be spent into training and developing younger talents rather than
trying to figure out what happened when and how, which is mostly
useless. But it also would become even more of a money game – those with
a generous sponsor could do more. I mean in general the sponsor who
provides better equipment and staff will give an advantage to their
team, but you need roughly the same amount of technicians and masseurs,
and the difference between an expensive frame and a very expensive frame
is not that big in terms of money, but the medication is really a huge
amount. But... excuse me (/phone rings/)
/At this stage, the interview was over. After the phone conversation the
rider had to leave us. We tried to get his authorization for publishing
in the following days (because, in the words of the athlete, it is "not
out of the realm of possibility" that someone manages to identify him),
but then it became public that two Euskatel riders had tested positive
as well Giro runner up Daniel di Luca, and we were back to square one
with him./
Susan Walker
Er, nice. Brett Lancaster? Brian Larsen? Björn Leukemans?
bjwe...@gmail.com
wrote:
> danf wrote:
> > ...
> > *DF: Are you aware of the, excuse me, schizophrenic nature of what
> > you're saying? On one hand you are astonished about anyone not believing
> > in manipulation and on the other hand you feel completely save?*
>
> > BL: How is that schizophrenic? Everyone knows the game that is played.
> > There are those, with legal power, who for some reason want to ban it
> > (/doping, ed./) all, and for them we have to put on the hide and seek
> > and the legal armour and the secrecy, but it is just a game. But they
> > did have successes, and, maybe I am clouded because I am inside, but I'd
> > think it's obvious for anyone what is going on. If amateurs do it just
> > for kicks, why would you believe when there is actual stakes, money,
> > it's not happening? /That's/ probably schizophrenic.
Good talk. I quoted a few especially good points.
>
> Er, nice. Brett Lancaster? Brian Larsen? Björn Leukemans?
Dumbass,
That's too simple/easily outed. BL = Brian Lafferty. Duh.
Ben
Donald Munro
> Er, nice. Brett Lancaster? Brian Larsen? Björn Leukemans?
Brian Lafferty ?
Anton Berlin
z
DF = Dave Fuentes?
Susan Walker
> Susan Walker wrote:
>> danf wrote:
>>
>> Er, nice. Brett Lancaster? Brian Larsen? Björn Leukemans?
>
> DF = Dave Fuentes?
Could he not have called uncle Eufemiano?
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:51a43d97-655a-4612...@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
> The initials are made up I'm sure. Good article, clearly an insider
There's nothing new here, no real content, nothing that couldn't have
been written by anyone with even a moderate amount of story telling
skill and keeping track of bits & pieces from the various admitted
dopers.
It comes across as believable, but there's a big gap between believable
and authentic.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Nobody
True. Can't be so eager to get the 'inside view' that you lap up
anything out there which seems revealing.
The drugs they're talking about are most likely 'peptides', low
molecular weight proteins which stimulate the body to make more of the
'enhancing' substance. Aicar is one, and there's a new EPO-like one
out also, called Hematide, again, a synthetic peptide.
Bordry says they can detect these, but I doubt it. They'll be relying
on leaks (true or not), finding 'vials', usually empty, or syringes,
and then catching someone for something else, then suggesting a
lighter fine or shorter racing ban if they give someone up. It gets
too far from stopping cheating/enhancing and closer to extortion and
creating lies doing it this way, imo.
Anton Berlin
wrote:
> "Anton Berlin" <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I think the dialogue sounds authentic. The skeptic in me wonders
about the timing (during the tour) and the idea of anonymity. Once
more than one person knows it's no longer a secret.