Lieswyn's Off Season
Maurice De Muer
the weirdly interesting:
www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
Worst Caravan Driver
John Wordin. I've laid on the brakes hard numerous times when he has
tried to fit his Mercury between the pack and a rapidly approaching
concrete bridge abutment, sign, or parked car. In his defense, his
team's riding earns Wordin the right and necessity to continually bomb
past the peloton on his way to the break, which his team never misses. I
bet the euro peloton wasn't too impressed with his blunderbuss approach
to driving whenever he supplanted the euro directors of Mercury/Viatel.
Wordin did find a euro team car horn that livened up the caravan a few
times these last two years!
Maurice, has heard many Euro pros scorn Wordin's "blunderbuss approach
to driving"
Freiburg
Rik Van Diesel
> This is some funny shit, from JL's "2002 USA Cycling Awards," from the
> the weirdly interesting:
>
> www.racelistings.com/rzone/rzone.htm
>
> Worst Caravan Driver
>
> to driving"
> Freiburg
Do you think Wordin will run him over with the car before McCook can crash him out?
RVD
Alan Atwood
Worst Race Organization
Anybody who tries to hold a yellow line rule road race. No USA Cycling
sanction should be given to an organizer trying to hold a road race
under "yellow line rule" (open roads without rolling police
enclosure). A 17 year old boy lost his life in Asheville NC a few
years ago in a "yellow line" road race, and the event never happened
again. The city still won't support bike racing. This is the MOST
DANGEROUS, NEGLIGENT condition for racing so don't organize it, race
it, or support it!
************************
OK, John. Got it. Hey, let's do a road race; you go make the
arrangements for the police, road closure permits, town and state
permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all
this.
Even in the economic boom of the '90's you could not even come close
to raising the funds needed to do this. Just talk to the guy who ran
last year's VOS. If we decided to run races the way John wanted, the
road race as we know it would cease to exist. We'd be just a culture
of criterium experts.
Get real John. If you don't want to show up for a local road race;
fine. You won't be missed.
Oh, by the way, what's your phone number so I can put it down as a
contact for public feedback on our proposed event.
Maurice De Muer <mdm2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3DFF32E0...@yahoo.com>...
Monkeyhillcs
arrangements for the police, road closure permits, town and state
permits, alert for town residents, public meetings, extra officials,
extra support vehicles; and I'll come up the ~$25,000 to pay for all
this. >>
Ok, so it is slightly more difficult than doing an industrial park crit, but
let's not get too crazy here.
For the road race I put on with rolling enclosure. 3 state troopers at $55 hr
for a 100+ mile RR is only about $1000. The officials for both days of a race
weekend is only about $1500 I think. There is no charge to use the public
roads.
Andrew Albright
DanSchmatz
Jason Waddell
>From: dansc...@aol.com (DanSchmatz)
>Date: 12/17/02 9:54 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <20021217225400...@mb-bh.aol.com>
>
>I'd rather race crits than get run over.
I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US when
everyone knows the real money is in crits...
thanks,
jason
Andy Coggan
"DanSchmatz" <dansc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217225400...@mb-bh.aol.com...
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
Is that an endorsement of rolling road closures, or a slam at Wordin's
driving skills?
Andy Coggan (who wonders if Wordin went to the Papa Roy Stetina School of
Driving?)
G. Cook
the yellow line is a curb. Its not very difficult.
"DanSchmatz" <dansc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217225400...@mb-bh.aol.com...
Bob Schwartz
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Ask Skip "Speed Bump"
Spangenberg.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
Bob Schwartz
> I'd rather race crits than get run over.
I'd rather race crits than get hit by lightning. But I really
don't spend much time worrying about getting hit by lightning.
Or getting run over during a race. I think I take a comparable
risk every time I get in the car. The 50% of the field that is
juicing on ephedra is taking a greater risk before the race
even starts.
I am very concerned that he has voiced an expert opinion that
99% of the road races in this country are inherently dangerous
and that promoters that do not take steps that are simply not
financially or logistically possible in most cases are negligent.
For every venue that is lost because of a fatality like the one
he cites in Ashville there are a million that are lost because
someone takes a leak in public or because people are pissed off
because they can't drive any speed they want on any road they
want at any time they want.
I like John and his writing but I'd like to take that particular
paragraph and cram it someplace dark.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
BBC3
> I'll second that. Why would anyone want to race for 100 miles in the US
when
> everyone knows the real money is in crits...
Hmmm. Real Money? I can't tell if you are being facetious or not. I was
pretty sure that very few cyclists are in the sport for the "Real Money."
What do you consider real money? As far as road races are concerned, I for
one would like to see more of them. Here in Colorado it seems a bit
difficult to get CDOT (CO Dept of Trans) to approve a road race. I think
this is a shame since this state has the potential to be the best road race
state in the nation. Besides, road races can be kinda cool since they tend
separate cyclists based on fitness levels more quickly than crits. Office
park crits just don't seem to be the key to keeping "Real Money" in this
sport. I think you need big road races to get and keep the "Real Money"
around.
--
Bill
VeloRodsMom
> everyone knows the real money is in crits...
>
Cause crits are for fags. At least that's what my son Rodney tells me all the time.
Sincerely
Norma Kingston
Bob Schwartz
That's 3 cops/field, right?
Having cops at your race is a good thing, no doubt about that.
People that will show up at town meetings and scream until their
face turns blue over having to wait 3 seconds for a race to pass
will not make a peep if there is a cop leading the race because
its the cop that is making them stop, not an unruly mob of homos
on bikes. So they can be worth the expense for that alone.
But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny
percentage of races even if the required number of motorcycle cops
is available, which in most cases is not. There is no police
jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote possibility
for a race that I might put on that even has moto cops and that
includes state troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really
an option with cops in squad cars that means that what Lieswyn
feels is the absolute base acceptable level of road closure is not
possible for for me as a promoter unless I have enough cash to buy
my own roads. A 'Lieswyn Approved' race has multiple levels of
impossibility for me. I guess we won't be seeing him.
Hell, I'll bet there isn't a single moto cop in the entire state
of Iowa where he lives. Can anyone tell me I'm wrong on that? If
he'd hang out with the people that organize races in Ames I'll
bet he'd find out very quickly the magnitude of his gap with
reality.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
John Lieswyn
1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races last
year. One of them scared me. VOS.
2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little to
run. The first place prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended
because it was safe, great training, and I love racing. There were
volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner stopping traffic.
There isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And
there are motorcycle cops in this state, brainiac.
3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front
of you slams on his brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross
the line. That was the option presented to the now DEAD junior rider from
Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS into the path
of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's
say you are doing a "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front of
you. You are either in the crash or forced around it, either way you are
over the line. A car runs you over. Will you be so gung ho to promote or
attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you survive the accident?
4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.
5) BOB: since when are 99% of the road races in America "yellow line rule"
?????? Logic...
"Bob Schwartz" <cv...@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:3e00997c$0$1427$1dc6...@news.corecomm.net...
Bikerecker
>he cites in Ashville there are a million that are lost because
The Belle Chere race fatality in Asheville was caused when the ill-fated rider
crossed the center line and got waxed by a dump truck.
The Tour de Moore (?) Cat 3 accident from a few years earlier had a rolling
closure. No one died in the Tour de Moore, but it was a horrible accident.
The Asheville area supports a lot of racing (despite Ashevillian JL's claim to
the contrary), and the Tour de Moore continues. Face it, bike racing isn't
safe, whether crit or road race, closed course or not. Hell, one of my
teammates got side swiped by a pickup in a time trial, for chrissakes.
In TN, there is strict adherence to the yellow line rule. My only complaint is
that on the narrow back roads that comprise many of our venues, one team can
completely shut down the field, making many of the smaller races very
defensive. OTOH, we have a good variety of races on great courses throughout
the season.
Greg
John Lieswyn
fatality meant the end of a great event (the Bele Chere cycling road race)
Come on people. If you are going to quote or criticize me, at least read my
stuff thoroughly first. Don't misquote it.
And how do you (Mr. Tennessee) respond to my scenario for an accident? This
scenario can be avoided. Hold your road races on circuits that can be
converted to rolling enclosure, have corner marshals, do whatever you need
to do to avoid a potential head on. Look, it might take one month, one
year, or ten years, but keep holding yellow line rule races and someone will
die for no other reason than THAT RULE. I know racing is dangerous. I did
120 races last year and there was plenty of danger. I bungee jump, fly
planes, drive fast, walk down busy roads. I'm telling you that yellow line
racing 1) isn't racing the way racing is meant to be: see your statement
about one team being able to shut down the field easily 2) harder to enforce
fairly (how many guys crossed the line at VOS that didn't get DQ'd? I would
say any rider who didn't get dropped by the main field that day CROSSED THE
LINE. But, most importantly: 3) is far more dangerous than any other kind
of bike racing.
"Bikerecker" <biker...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021218231307...@mb-fw.aol.com...
Stewart Fleming
example) with an open road race in the US?
STF
Canuck
"John Lieswyn" <jlie...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:NAbM9.422919$QZ.66160@sccrnsc02...
> See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
>
> 1) I did quite a few (60 plus) road (or circuit larger than 3km) races
last
> year. One of them scared me. VOS.
>
> 2) Here in Iowa I did a few as well. One in particular cost very little
to
> run. The first place prize was a waterbottle or something. I attended
> because it was safe, great training, and I love racing. There were
> volunteers and volunteer off duty cops on every corner stopping traffic.
> There isn't much traffic in the part of Iowa where the race was held. And
> there are motorcycle cops in this state, brainiac.
>
> 3) Pretending the yellow line is a curb DOESN'T WORK when the guy in front
> of you slams on his brakes and you have one option: slam into him or cross
> the line. That was the option presented to the now DEAD junior rider from
> Asheville. I nearly DIED when I swerved over the line at VOS into the
path
> of an oncoming semi because of a near pileup right in front of me. Let's
> say you are doing a "yellow line rule" race and there is a crash in front
of
> you. You are either in the crash or forced around it, either way you are
> over the line. A car runs you over. Will you be so gung ho to promote or
> attend a yellow line rule in the future, given you survive the accident?
>
> 4) VOS was a circuit race, not point to point.
I agree with Mr. L.
VOS can be extremely dangerous. Why doesn't the White Mountain Club move the
RR to the site of the Superior RR, 1 hour east of Phoenix? Very safe course
in comparison - no traffic, difficult climbs.
I was going to email them last year about it, but oh well.
Donald Munro
>> everyone knows the real money is in crits...
VeloRodsMom wrote:
>Cause crits are for fags. At least that's what my son Rodney tells me all the time.
Better tell your son not to call these big crit sprinters fags to
their faces unless you'd like him back with newly re-arranged facial
features.
Donald 'everyone kicks sand in my face cos I'm a climber' Munro
Tom Kunich
> I didn't claim that there isn't much racing in Asheville. I SAID that the
> fatality meant the end of a great event (the Bele Chere cycling road race)
>
> Come on people. If you are going to quote or criticize me, at least read my
> stuff thoroughly first. Don't misquote it.
Come on John, you know the rules here. Jesus Christ would be
criticized for saying something (reminds one of "Did he say, 'Blessed
are the cheese-makers?'")
Yellow line rules are stupid and shouldn't be allowed for large races.
And yet they have become common. As you point out, if there's no other
way around an obstruction a rider will cross the yellow line either on
purpose or accidently or because there is no alternative.
And we should also mention that the yellow line rule is so often "in
effect" and yet ignored that many racers simply pay it no attention at
all and then cry when they are disqualified by it. When I drove team
cars I would often watch the whole pack ride on the yellow line and
yet the right gutter was open. Many riders race as if there were
nothing but lemmings.
I understand that if you cannot shut a road down for a few hours that
a yellow line rule is better than no racing. But there is a difference
between a 40 rider local race and a 200+ rider national caliber race.
John Lieswyn
years. I always avoided them when I could and now it could be the USPRO
road race championships and I wouldn't go if it was held under yellow line
rule (a bit of exaggeration there to make my point). You will see the
entire Saturn team at Valley of the Sun and if it is run under yellow line
rule I won't be there, NRC points or not. Plus, as a out of stater (not
local to Arizona) why spend $700 going to a race in Arizona with no
publicity, no prizemoney?
How does a "open" (yellow line rule) race compare to the Southland tour?
Apples to Oranges. Southland Tour has rolling enclosure. I never once in
two outings there and two dozen road races there saw a car/truck coming at
us head on. For all you people who are emailing me confused about my
statements on Asheville, read carefully. In the previous sentence the
grammatical structure is "I NEVER ONCE" which means that I DID NOT. Once
again, read carefully. I did not say Asheville doesn't have great cycling
scene. I only said that Bele Chere isn't around anymore thanks to yellow
line rule race disaster. TO MAKE IT EVER SO CLEAR (can you tell I'm annoyed
that people can't read?) Asheville has a great cycling scene, and annual
races that are lots of fun and safely run.
John
"Stewart Fleming" <stewart...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3E015A49...@paradise.net.nz...
Tom Arsenault
And just to add more fuel to the fire, I was at VOS this year, and
also competed in over 70+ races during the 2002 season, and I am in
total agreement with John that this was the only race where I did not
feel safe. The field limits were ignored, the officials were not
very in tune with the rules they were hired to enforce, and it was
basically a mess from start to finish. When a lot of us "voiced" our
concerns and problems with the race via cyclingnews.com, the promoter
took it hard, and basically said that they wouldn't be running the
race again next year because of the criticisms received. Basically,
they were taking their ball and going home and weren't coming out to
play anymore. It does appear that the race is on again this year
though, and I have been adamant in telling anyone that will listen in
the Southeast US to NOT go out there to race. In other races I've
done in the past few years, the yellow line rule has always been in
effect. I don't know of many US road races where this is not true,
but the difference with the other races is that you have 2 motos
riding along with you, and usually some sort of police officer as
well. They all work in conjunction working a sort of "rolling"
closure of the road. Meaning they cut off crossroads, and have
oncoming traffic pull off to the side of the road to let the large
group go by. By all accounts most of the road races are in what we
would call "the countryside" and the motorists, if encumbered at all,
are only delayed for a minute or less. This works, and is safe,
and makes me feel safe as a racer. VOS made me feel like I was going
to get run over at any second.
I was also surprised by the "prize list" that was presented to the
Pro/1 field as being whoafully inadequate considering the firepower of
domestic racing that was represented. 7-Up was there, Prime Alliance
was there, Saturn was there, Mercury was there, Rona was there,
and many other very strong regional and pro teams. But this, is
another story...
Bob Schwartz
> See #5... I can't believe this moron, Bob Schwartz...
John, take the time to talk to someone in Iowa that
actually organizes races. Run your minimum requirements
past that person. It is possible to run short circuit
races on closed courses in parks. The Lake Park races
in Superweek for example. Once you get beyond that
scale you need to have a lot of cash and/or political
muscle behind you. Dave LaPorte could tell you about
what it takes to run the road races that he runs. Its
a lot, don't kid yourself. And likewise, don't kid
yourself that the community and political support
that NRC races get is normal. I am absolutely in awe
of the resources and effort and money and political
backing that he is able to pull together for the
stuff he runs. That is very, very, exceptional. It
is also because the base cause is a charity for kids
and not bike racing.
The race that you mention as being safe and well run
does not meet your requirements by the way. You were
counting on the low traffic counts and (I'm guessing)
great sight lines from a lack of terrain to allow
the yellow line to be disregarded. But maybe we will
see you at one of our races because that's what we do
to secure the course i.e. corner marshals in an area
with very little traffic. You're welcome to come if
you have the time. But we do enforce the center line
because in spite of the lack of traffic there are many
places where you can't see well enough up the road.
We're not lucky enough to be as dead flat as Iowa. If
that is unacceptable then we'll miss you.
But you didn't have a closed course or a rolling
enclosure at that race in Iowa. An incident like the
one in Ashville could have happened. Low traffic count
roads are not necessarily any safer because one of the
things that happens in those situations is that people
eventually assume there is nothing up the road. Even
if you have great sight lines, you can still have
problems with overtaking vehicles. No shit. I can think
of at least one case where people spilled over the
yellow line as a guy with his foot heavy on the gas
was coming. It was only timing that made the major
cost of that incident nothing more than a pissed off
driver. This was on a low traffic count road like that
safe race you did in Iowa. That's why we enforce the
yellow line even if there is nothing up the road. If
VOS had traffic count issues then maybe it is a good
thing that the race is gone, but traffic count is not
the entire story.
I am very aware of the risks of bike racing. I do not
believe that the risk of racing a yellow line race is
greater than the risk of getting into the car to drive
to said race. Think about that for a second. If someone
crashed and died on the way to a race do you think
anyone outside the local racing community would hear
about it? Probably not. People die in cars all the time.
You haven't done your homework. Go talk to someone that
has actually organized a road race. Ask them about the
effort and clout and money required to meet your minimum
standards. Go to the cops where you live, tell them you
want to put on a road race. Ask them what you'd need to
get their OK. Be sure to ask if they wouldn't mind
volunteering their time like those cops at the race you
mentioned. *Then* come back and if you still think I'm a
moron, go ahead and call me a moron. But I have done all
those things and you are talking about clearing the
calendar of road races in order to avoid a very real but
very small amount of risk. You are not yet qualified to
call me a moron.
Actually I haven't done all those things. I've never
asked a cop to volunteer their time. We have gotten free
cops though, but only because the city tourism people
had gotten general event support built into the police
budget. They sure as hell weren't doing it just for us.
BTW The city of Milwaukee has motorcycle cops. They are
the only cop jurisdiction in the state of Wisconsin that
I am aware of that does. A rolling enclosure is not
possible for me at any price.
Also BTW, there were road races almost every weekend
here last summer. Aside from the aforementioned Superweek
closed course park races and a couple that are held on
pavement that is not open to the public to begin with,
none of them meet your standards. And I do not believe
any of them could, although most meet the standard of
that "safe" race in Iowa. If someone is ever unfortunate
to get whacked by a car and die while participating,
the race fatality race will still be dwarved by the
fatality rate suffered by people training for those
races.
The "cram it someplace dark" comment was because I think
that if someone ever gets whacked at one of those safe
races like the one in Iowa we will see that statement
in court regardless of where any fault lies because it
is an expert opinion that there is negligence in even
offering such a race. On behalf of organizers everywhere
I say, thanks loads.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
Do you wear your helmet in the car? Why not?
Kyle Legate
> And we should also mention that the yellow line rule is so often "in
> effect" and yet ignored that many racers simply pay it no attention at
> all and then cry when they are disqualified by it. When I drove team
> cars I would often watch the whole pack ride on the yellow line and
> yet the right gutter was open. Many riders race as if there were
> nothing but lemmings.
>
Or they race it like the wind is coming from the right. Thanks for trying.
... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
leg...@mcmaster.ca Kyle Legate leg...@hotmail.com
Tower of Tongues:Thursday PM:10:30-11:30 EDT:http://cfmu.mcmaster.ca
moon musick:ritual:IDM:experimental(electronica):minimalism:glitch
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ...
Rob Benetton
guys promoted?I am talking about the ones the AVERAGE person goes
to,with 8 or 10 classes running on the same course at the same
time.This is what happens at most events.First the Cat1-2's go of,2
minutes later the Cat.3's ride away,then the Cat.4's,tec,etc down
through Juniors,Citizens,usually about 8-10 separate races on the
course at the same time.With about 3 minutes between groups.Every
category wants ,and gets,it's own race.So this is how it is at ALL the
roadraces I went to,about 17 this year.How would you do a rolling
closure with 10 groups?.I can't get one Sherriff's car to appear,no
matter what I offer them.They "Are not in the business of babysitting
bike riders".So the yellow line rule sucks.The alternative is a mass
start event,with 200 riders of all abilities,riding behind a civilian
car with a yellow light on the roof.Ala WISPORT.What about those who
get dropped?The whole issue of amateur RRing DEPENDS upon riders
behaving like adults,and riding RIGHT OF CENTER.(ROC)...As
promoters,we try to pick a course with good sight lines,and all right
turns,in areas with very little traffic....but the rest is up to the
riders.The safest thing we can offer is a race on the right side,and
yes,occasionally,people get pushed over,but generally the groups have
been well behaved of late.And if the course is hard enough(HILLS) then
teams are unable to block,and the best rider wins.We have hills,lotsa
hills,and it always separates the best from the rest.But I would like
to hear more ideas about how to accomodate many classes on the same
course simultaneously....without just saying a rolling closure is the
only way to go,cuz we don't have that option.And there is alot of
inherent danger in having too many follow/lead vehicles on the
course,as well.Ask Millar,Mike Barry,etal...Alot of people are getting
hurt/killed training too...maybe that should be considered "dangerous
and negligent"as well...Please keep your comments constructive,and
offer some alternatives.Thanks.Bob
Amit
> And yet they have become common. As you point out, if there's no other
> way around an obstruction a rider will cross the yellow line either on
> purpose or accidently or because there is no alternative.
>
> a yellow line rule is better than no racing. But there is a difference
> between a 40 rider local race and a 200+ rider national caliber race.
I don't like the idea of traffic flowing in the opposite direction as
the field, but I think Tom has a point here. Yellow lines are okay for
small fields (maybe 40-50 riders), but it's too dangerous in large
fields. I can understand how difficult it can be for officials to
police a large field like the VOS had.
-Amit
Monkeyhillcs
From: Bob Schwartz cv...@shell.core.com
<<That's 3 cops/field, right?>>
No. 2 cops per field, and a ton of motorcycle officials. Delaware doesn't have
motorocycle state troopers.
>>But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny
percentage of races even if the required number of motorcycle cops
is available, which in most cases is not. There is no police
jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote possibility
for a race that I might put on that even has moto cops and that
includes state troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really
an option with cops in squad cars>>>
Wrong, see above. I think that most East Coast races with rolling enclosures
don't have motor police. I can think of only FU-philly and Tour deWarsaw that
have motorcycle police.
There are a lot of officials with motorcycles. Or you could do like Bill
Laudien and shut the road down in one direction. Then you don't really need
that many mobile police.
I think that John L has a better appreciation for what can be done and what is
done across the country. While he may not know shit from shinola WRT to
promoting the rr;'s.
Bikerecker
>I didn't claim that there isn't much racing in Asheville. I SAID that the
>fatality meant the end of a great event (the Bele Chere cycling road race)
>
You actually wrote this:
"... 17 year old boy lost his life in Asheville NC a few
years ago in a "yellow line" road race, and the event never happened
again. The city still won't support bike racing."
Without being disingenuous, I wrote:
"The Asheville area supports a lot of racing (despite Ashevillian JL's
claim to
the contrary)".
OK?
>And how do you (Mr. Tennessee) respond to my scenario for an accident?
See my comments RE: Tour de Moore Cat 3 incident.
In the grass roots events that are prevalent in the Southeast, it is usually
not practical to do a full closure. The "modified" closure adopted in TN and
elsewhere in the region, along with the paucity of traffic on most southeastern
courses and the strict enforcement of the yellow line rule has kept the road
racing scene alive and well.
Three more comments:
One, Chill out. The comments that you are overreacting to are honest, mostly
well thought out ideas from people who care about the sport. You are well
respected in this forum, no need to go off on those who disagree with your
position.
Two, I enjoy watching your success in racing, and the honest, thoughful columns
you put up on cyclingnews. Keep up the good work.
Three, I have no idea how someone could leave Asheville, NC, to live anywhere
near Iowa. The horror, the horror...
Greg Miller
Knoxville
laudien
Putting riders in danger because to do otherwise would be challenging or
financially difficult is a poor excuse and a worse policy.
Holding a race with more than 40-50 riders and depending on the centerline is poor
and unsafe race organization.
Bob Schwartz
> Three, I have no idea how someone could leave Asheville, NC, to live anywhere
> near Iowa. The horror, the horror...
Maybe he wants to live someplace where a beer can collection doesn't
pass for a tourist attraction. Or where people don't leave twinkies
and beer for Santa on Christmas.
Maybe he wants to ride someplace where people pick up the parts that
fall off of their pickup trucks.
Maybe he's tired of 'Elvis gets in free' promotions at stock car races.
Maybe he doesn't want to live in a place where pictures of dogs playing
poker is considered high art.
Maybe he's tired of going to weddings where everyone sits on the same
side of the church.
Sundquist must be out if he hasn't responded to this one yet. I'll bet
he could beat this stuff with just his opinions on the dating scene
in the south.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
Greg, there is a career for you as a straight man...
Bob Schwartz
> From: Bob Schwartz cv...@shell.core.com
> <<That's 3 cops/field, right?>>
> No. 2 cops per field, and a ton of motorcycle officials. Delaware doesn't have
> motorocycle state troopers.
>>>But that is a level of expense that is an option for only a tiny
> percentage of races even if the required number of motorcycle cops
> is available, which in most cases is not. There is no police
> jurisdiction that I can think of as even being a remote possibility
> for a race that I might put on that even has moto cops and that
> includes state troopers. And since a rolling enclosure isn't really
> an option with cops in squad cars>>>
> Wrong, see above. I think that most East Coast races with rolling enclosures
> don't have motor police. I can think of only FU-philly and Tour deWarsaw that
> have motorcycle police.
OK, maybe I'm unclear on exactly what you
guys mean by 'rolling enclosure'.
My understanding is that a rolling enclosure
has guys on motorcycles constantly leapfrogging
the field. A guy on a motor controls an
intersection ahead of the race and holds it
until the race passes through. They then pass
the follow caravan and field to control the
next intersection. You need a bunch of guys
doing this and since they may be controlling
intersections where the race does not have the
right of way they need to be cops.
So do you guys only use courses that don't ever
run stop signs? Or do the cops not mind people
that are not cops acting like cops if there are
real cops up in front of the race? If you can
swing that then you must have a real silver
tongue, I'll bet you get laid more in a week
than Ku... oh never mind.
It also sounds like you're running a single field.
One of my points was that the expense and effort
gets much higher if you are doing this with 5 or
6 concurrent fields like most of the local USAC
road races around here do. There are a lots of
things that are possible for single field races
that drop into the NFW category once you start
talking women and cat 3s, 4/5s, multiple levels
of masters...
> There are a lot of officials with motorcycles. Or you could do like Bill
> Laudien and shut the road down in one direction. Then you don't really need
> that many mobile police.
If you guys have a ton of motor officials
available then you are really lucky. Authority
figures, cops or officials, are easily the most
valuable thing to have when running a safe race.
We had two local guys a number of years ago,
neither is currently available. So a lot of races
here will do something similar with lots of
officials in cars, enough to put an official behind
each field. But its a ton harder to control a race
from a car than a motorcycle. You can't easily
and safely get in people's faces in a car the
way you can on a motor. I wish we had more motor
refs.
Is Laudien taking a road that people actually want to
drive on during the race? He must have powers of
persuasion that explains why he doesn't have time
to post here much anymore.
Bob Schwartz
cv...@execpc.com
Tim Mullin
> Maybe he wants to live someplace where a beer can collection doesn't
> pass for a tourist attraction. Or where people don't leave twinkies
> and beer for Santa on Christmas.
>
> Maybe he wants to ride someplace where people pick up the parts that
> fall off of their pickup trucks.
>
> Maybe he's tired of 'Elvis gets in free' promotions at stock car races.
>
> Maybe he doesn't want to live in a place where pictures of dogs playing
> poker is considered high art.
>
> Maybe he's tired of going to weddings where everyone sits on the same
> side of the church.
Jeff Foxworthy called....he wants his schtick back.
TritonRider
Bikerecker
Asheville rules, east of the Rockies. It is like if they took all the
pretentiousness out of Boulder and plopped it down in the Blue Ridge. There is
a reason Lance went down there to Boone to train when he was about to hang up
his cleats.
Ft Smith, AR, where Carl lives, is pretty much a pit. Way too close to OK for
its own good. Terrain is pretty good for biking, though, and the scene is
surprisingly strong. I would pick it over anywhere in the flat, barren,
too-white midwest (nothin between your ass and that cold north wind but a
single strand of barb wire...).
Iowa is like Kansas, except it's not next door to CO. Can't think of much
good to say about Iowa. It is a good place to leave.
By the way, you do have rednecks up there. If you can't see em, you are one of
em.
All in fun,
Greg
Brian Lafferty
"Bikerecker" <biker...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021220233458...@mb-ms.aol.com...
> OK:
> Asheville rules, east of the Rockies. It is like if they took all the
> pretentiousness out of Boulder and plopped it down in the Blue Ridge.
There is
> a reason Lance went down there to Boone to train when he was about to hang
up
> his cleats.
Did Armstrong buy property and move there?
Brian Lafferty
ronde chumpion
Brian,
Yes, armstrong does own property in Boone. I just checked our local
phone book, and seen it with my own eyes.
Thanks,
Ronde Chumpion
Tim Mullin
"ronde chumpion" <rondec...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62f26b38.02122...@posting.google.com...
> Yes, armstrong does own property in Boone. I just checked our local
> phone book, and seen it with my own eyes.
I thought all you hillbillies were on one party line and didn't need a phone
book.
Brian Lafferty
"ronde chumpion" <rondec...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62f26b38.02122...@posting.google.com...
Really. He is listed as owning property in SC but in another area.
Bikerecker
>Did Armstrong buy property and move there?
I don't know if he owns any property up there. In his "Not about the Bike"
book, on the acknowledgements page, he wrote:
"This book is for:..." "The cities of Austin, Boone, Santa Barbara, and Nice."
That, my friends, is as powerful an endoresment as you or anyone else might
need.
Now, Boone is a like a smaller version of Asheville, for you ignorant folks who
have somehow avoided travelling in the area.
One of the reasons Lance digs the place is that the Tour DuPont went through
there in '96. I think that's when Lance figured out he could ride in the
mountains, day-in, day-out. Those stages were epic, like the surrounding
terrain.
Greg
Brian Lafferty
"Bikerecker" <biker...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221234800...@mb-fb.aol.com...
I have looked into the future and I see Lanceland right next to
Dollyland, the perfect stop on the way to Disney World. Cue to Sachmo
singing, "Its a Wonderful World."
Brian Lafferty