I really like the new way of showing the abandons -- thanks, Bob!
(Poor Rik Verbrugghe. Poor David Canada. And definitely poor Mattias Kessler.)
Rage away,
meg
--
Meg Worley _._ m...@steam.stanford.edu _._ Comparatively Literate
Aha! Taking 3 rest days in a row and shine in the Alps? Here's hoping
E.
-fan
Mario Aerts commented that Kessler would probably have won were it not
for the fall, he was the strongest. More importantly Aerts
(Davitamon-Lotto) also said that when he heard that Quickstep-Innergetic
had started chasing, he gave it his all until he was spent. He was
already tired and didn't think he would make it to the line with the
other two, but better that one of them won than that the QS led peloton
would make it back in front...
--
E. Dronkert
I wonder what made Boonen think he would be able to make it over that
climb with the lead group anyway.
I happened to watch the stage on France television today and they chose
today to put their guy in the car with the DS of SDV. Simoni was
unfortunately not trying to conserve energy. Tough stage for the DS who had
a guy in the break and his leader falling off the back.
Jalabert, who follows the break aways said (before the crash) that Kessler
and Fedrigo were clearly the two strongest today in the break. Whether
Kessler would have won is a question. Fedrigo is a pretty cool customer as
we saw today, and the way he won the French title last year.
Well, that's pissed on his pretentions to be a GC contender. Not that he
ever was, the nasty little man.
> -fan
-non-fan.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
to err is human, to lisp divine
;; attributed to Kim Philby, oddly enough.
France does deserve a real Tour hero. With any luck between him and Voeckler
they may actually get some real air time.
Dumbass -
Why do they "deserve" anything?
Their development system clearly sucks. Why does mediocrity "deserve"
to be rewarded?
You remind me of the supporters of the California public school system
where everyone gets a diploma whether or not they can read.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
How would you rate the US development system on a relative basis?
Dumbass -
I'm not talking about the stuff funded by the federations. The French
system as a whole must suck, otherwise they'd turn out contenders.
I can't really say the US "system" as a whole is all that great, but
the proof is in the pudding - we have GC contenders, quite a few of
them and the French have none even though it's their national tour and
French teams get preferential entry treatment, etc. If their system was
of high quality, they'd turn out sime high quality riders wouldn't
they?
The results from 2005 bear this out: USA has 7 riders in the Tour, 5
finish in the top 20, 3 in the top 10, including the overall win.
France has 26 riders in the Tour, one rider in the top 20, none in the
top 10. Or the results from the last 20 years. USA has 10 GC victories,
France has no overall GC victories in the last 20 years.
So: our system isn't all that great, therefore theirs must really,
really suck.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
> France does deserve a real Tour hero. With any luck between him and Voeckler
> they may actually get some real air time.
dumbass,
voeckler is a douche. i hate him. how he's all over his bike like some
twelve year old and yo-yoing off the backs of groups. he got the yellow
somehow but he is far from france's best rider.
> The results from 2005 bear this out: USA has 7 riders in the Tour, 5
> finish in the top 20, 3 in the top 10, including the overall win.
> France has 26 riders in the Tour, one rider in the top 20, none in the
> top 10. Or the results from the last 20 years. USA has 10 GC victories,
> France has no overall GC victories in the last 20 years.
dumbass,
in the '97 tour brochard, virenque, rous, mengin all won stages.
festina was the best team and virenque was second on GC. you know what
happened to festina in '98 and french cycling has sucked since then.
Dumbass,
Voeckler is far from France's best rider, but his fearless attacking
style makes up for his deficiencies and contributes greatly to his
proclivity, and aptitude, for one-day races. I'll take him over that
washrag Chavanel any day.
> > voeckler is a douche. i hate him. how he's all over his bike like some
> > twelve year old and yo-yoing off the backs of groups. he got the yellow
> > somehow but he is far from france's best rider.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> Voeckler is far from France's best rider, but his fearless attacking
> style makes up for his deficiencies and contributes greatly to his
> proclivity, and aptitude, for one-day races. I'll take him over that
> washrag Chavanel any day.
Voeckler's attacks aren't "fearless." They are "doomed."
He has nothing to fear because he isn't actually gambling
a chance to win. He attacks, and rides himself into the
ground, at times when he has no reasonable chance of
using the attack to pull off a win. He gets on TV a lot, which
is good for the sponsor, but if it hadn't been for having the
yellow jersey as a baby, he wouldn't get so much airtime.
Among the Frenchmen, Calzati's stage winning attack,
and Moncoutie's stage wins in 2004 and 2005, are
much better examples of smart attacking in bike racing.
Save your energy, go at the right time, when your rivals
will look at each other for a moment, and give it everything.
These are real gambles, because if they do organize a
chase, you're probably hosed and you've used your chance.
He got the yellow in exactly the same way he lost time last Thursday - by
putting total commitment into something that had no real chance of
succeeding. It's that cheerful insouciant uncalculating unstrategic
willingness to give it everything he's got - and then a bit more - even
when it's obviously hopeless, that's attractive about him. That and the
fact that he seems to actually enjoy riding a bike. And that he never
seems to have a bad word to say about anyone.
No, I agree: not a great rider. Not a great player of the game of bluff
and counter bluff, of calculation and deceit and betrayal and
provisional allegiances which make cycling as a sport so interesting to
watch. But a hero, definitely.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
/, \'. _-' ,--,,,--'''
{ \ `_-'' ' /
`;;' ; ; ;
._..--'' ._,,, _..' .;.'
(,_....----''' (,..--''
Lots of ifs and buts, but Boonen is among the better climbers of the
sprinters. If they caught the escapees and the course hadn't exploded
on the last climb it could have been a group sprint.
The final climb wasn't exceptionally though and Boonen is very strong.
Someone who contends in Flandres and Milan-San Remo can take climbs
like these. But Boonen isn't in top-shape atm and Rabo took things in
hand.
That climb was a lot tougher than it looked on tv. For one thing the road
surface was pretty rough which can make climbs tougher than they at
first appear, and it wasn't a short climb either. A lot of better climbers
than Boonen didn't make it into the lead bunch; I doubt if Boonen even at
his current classic best would have been able to hang in.
Considering how it went: nope, fully agreed.
On a side note:
71 Alexandre Moos (Swi) Phonak
7.44
Then a group:
72 Robbie McEwen (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
8.04
73 Erik Zabel (Ger) Milram
Seems Zabel and McEwen sprinted^ for the applause^^
Heh, guess not:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/tour06/index.php?id=/photos/2006/tour06/tour0614/11
Just leading the bunch.
If it were part of a classic, which is to say a single race that Boonen could
prepare for specifically and arrive rested and ready, he'd be a very strong
contender and could probably hang.
Not today, not with him already pounded by this last week of riding.
Ron
RonSonic wrote:
> If it were part of a classic, which is to say a single race that Boonen could
> prepare for specifically and arrive rested and ready, he'd be a very strong
> contender and could probably hang.
If he could stay with the best climbers on a cat 2 then he'd be able to
win LBL easily. But I think he'd have to donate a testicle and
change some of his muscle fibres before he'd be able to do that.
Was Voeckler coached by Jacky Durand?
Because they support the Tour every year regardless. All those little towns
pay a fortune to ASO to start a stage and in come cases even to just pass
through.
> Their development system clearly sucks. Why does mediocrity "deserve"
> to be rewarded?
Tell me about that French track team you beat again?
> You remind me of the supporters of the California public school system
> where everyone gets a diploma whether or not they can read.
What if the majority of the French players WERE clean and they were losing
simply because of the doping? Surely you remember Charly Mottet who Kimmage
claimed was a pure as the driven snow and whose career was destoyed in the
EPO era?
I suggest you try to grow up. Or better yet go out for a bicycle ride if you
can even sit on a saddle anymore.
There are those of us who remember Claudio Chiapucci but then I suppose
that's ancient history to you.
I wonder if anyone can recall the way Hinault rode.
We had two outliers.
The Tour has evolved. Just as the riders composed by national teams then
trade teams, the tour, while named for France, run by a French organization,
and held predominately on French soil is no more about French riders than
Wimbledon is about British tennis players.
What is the US system? Has it developed riders of such quality and quantity
that it can hold its own closed national criterium championship? How many of
the riders on the only US based team to ride the Tour in 2005 were American?
If the French didn't give their teams preferential entry treatment, would
the Tour be more competitive with more US riders?
Belgium's system must suck. They haven't had a GC winner in 30 years. The
Dutch, 26 years. Sure Spain has won 6 times in the past 18 years, but what
have they done lately?
If the US's system isn't all that great, ergo France's really sucks, using
the metrics you've listed above which country has a 'system' that's really
good?
Dumbass -
Belgium's system doesn't suck. They win one day races instead of 3 week
tours. France sucks. They can't do well at those either.
> If the US's system isn't all that great, ergo France's really sucks, using
> the metrics you've listed above which country has a 'system' that's really
> good?
Italy, Spain, Australia and Germany produce a slew of good riders who
win a variety of events. Australia, especially so since they're a small
country far removed from Europe or any major professional racing
circuit. Australian stereotype: sprinters and prologue guys although
they have Rogers and Evans. Spain, almost climbers, although they have
exceptions to this rule, Friere the sprinter and Flecha the cobbles
guy. Italy: all sorts of accomplished riders, the #1 nation in UCI
points. Germany: all sorts of versatile riders: Ullrich, Voight, Zabel,
Kloden, Kessler, and on and on and on.
France? They are Suckitude. They should definitly be much better than
us, considering that the biggest race in the world is French and so is,
arguably, the second biggest race in the world (Paris-Roubaix).
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
> What is the US system? Has it developed riders of such quality and quantity
> that it can hold its own closed national criterium championship?
Do any of the other major cycling countries even have
a national criterium championship?
Ben
p.s. If you count Masters, the US has more champions than
any other country, ergo it is Number One!
Thanks for reinforcing my point. We're the only 'major' cycling country with
a national criterium championship and still can't fill out the field
qualitatively.
That was my point - we're the only 'major' cycling country
(AFAIK) whose domestic circuit is so reliant on
round-the-block races that we have a championship for them.
Ben
crits are hard and I sucked at them
Carl Sundquist wrote:
>> Thanks for reinforcing my point. We're the only 'major' cycling country with
>> a national criterium championship and still can't fill out the field
>> qualitatively.
b...@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> That was my point - we're the only 'major' cycling country
> (AFAIK) whose domestic circuit is so reliant on
> round-the-block races that we have a championship for them.
>
> Ben
> crits are hard and I sucked at them
You could have even more champions in the US if you introduced
championships for various types of crits like round-the-block crits and
parking lot crits etc. Even crit-pro might be a champion that way.
>You could have even more champions in the US if you introduced
>championships for various types of crits like round-the-block crits and
>parking lot crits etc. Even crit-pro might be a champion that way.
Yeah. And crits with a hill in them. Though some masters fatties
have been known to say "That's not a crit, it's got a hill."
And crits without corners too -- like on race tracks. Though some say
no corners = not a crit. I've been known to whine like that.
So:
"Classic round-the-block"
"Parking lot"
"Hilly"
"Swoopy"
With an age group every two or three years for men and women -- sweet!
That's like hundreds of jerseys!
JT
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And bifurcated into clockwise- and counter-clockwise-lap championships...
>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:00:11 +0200, Donald Munro
><fat-d...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>You could have even more champions in the US if you introduced
>>championships for various types of crits like round-the-block crits and
>>parking lot crits etc. Even crit-pro might be a champion that way.
>
>Yeah. And crits with a hill in them. Though some masters fatties
>have been known to say "That's not a crit, it's got a hill."
>
>And crits without corners too -- like on race tracks. Though some say
>no corners = not a crit. I've been known to whine like that.
>
>So:
>"Classic round-the-block"
>"Parking lot"
>"Hilly"
>"Swoopy"
>
>With an age group every two or three years for men and women -- sweet!
>That's like hundreds of jerseys!
So there's hope for me after all.
Ron