On Jan 1, 12:49 pm, Donald Munro <n...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: > > Oh! It went to Medical bills!
> > "She's broken 33 bones and numerous teeth in her short career, including > > four compound fractures of her pelvis, a broken hip and a smashed > > collarbone."
> If she was Canadian it wouldn't have cost a penny (or dime or whatever > the Canadian currency equivalent is).
No, I'm pretty sure even Canadians pay for the health care they get. They just pay it to a US-based doctor.
On Jan 1, 1:06 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> but don't be a kool-aid drinker, there is no reason someone should get > paid to race a bicycle.
Why not? The promoters of the bigger events are bringing in money from sponsors to host their events, and someone has to contest those events or else the promoters don't have a product to sell. Why shouldn't the riders get paid?
On Jan 1, 3:10 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 1:06 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > but don't be a kool-aid drinker, there is no reason someone should get > > paid to race a bicycle.
> Why not? The promoters of the bigger events are bringing in money > from sponsors to host their events, and someone has to contest those > events or else the promoters don't have a product to sell. Why > shouldn't the riders get paid?
dumbass,
if someone can get paid - that is great, but that is not the same as insisting people should get paid for bike riding.
> "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message > news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... >> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article >> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, >> "Kurgan. >> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: >>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in >>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.co >>>> m. >>>> .. >>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
>>> Dumbass -
>>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those >>> women's teams for a few years?
>>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
>>> thanks,
>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>> Dumbass-
>> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens >> team.....
> So he wasn't a manager?
" Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those women's teams for a few years?"
As I wrote above....... What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
>> Scraping by? What the hell is scraping by? Most domestic women work full >> or >> part time jobs and a number of them make good money cause most are >> college >> or university educated with degrees in all sorts of fields. Add to that, >> many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo Alto, and even >> Santa Barbara. You don't see any girls bike racing who come from the >> slums, >> cause they never would of been able to afford a bike in the first place.
> dumbass,
> if you're saying that the racing is a personal development exercise > for upper and upper middle class women rather than a realistic source > of income, i agree.
> if someone made a lot of wealth in a previous career or has the > financial backing of someone elsei fully support their choice to > pursue some personal activity.
>> The ones scraping by are the ones at the bottom who have >> to pay out of pocket to travel and race, providing their own bikes, cars, >> hotels, meals, almost everything out of pocket, and perhaps some of them >> might be working at Starbucks. Now for those, you could say they are >> scraping by, but then again there are many men racing in this same >> position >> as you say, scraping by.
> i agree there as well. in fact there is more men in the scraping by > position because some of them will be holding out for one of the few > decent paying spots in the sport.
> but don't be a kool-aid drinker, there is no reason someone should get > paid to race a bicycle. i think it is even immoral to give developing > riders the impression that this is potentially a way to make a living. > the six-digit protour riders represent a tiny tiny fraction of all > bike racers.
Hung over from last night Punch, but...
We can save drinking from the Olympic Punch Bowl for another thread and there are a lot of women who are drinking from the Olympic Punch bowl, I hear it all the time. But yeah, from these figures I saw the other day, very few men are making millions at the very top, the creme. So right, most men don't make jack either, so it's skewed to hear so often women's cycling doesn't pay anything cause it takes the heat off the men making them look like the bread winners all the time, and they get the lion's share of the press, TV, endorsements, etc, but it's a very small handful of stars in the sport getting the really big money, and lots of men have tried every dirty trick in the book to get at those massive sums of cash available to the top players. From the article I read, average pros are making around 37k a year, and that's less then most middle class stiffs make, or around the bottom of middle class earnings, not a very good paying job.
In that sense, I think high payouts is unhealthy for the sport and a bad image or incentive to pursue bike racing to make a living. Many of them might just as well play the lottery. If they do it because its in their blood, they love it, its in the genes and they are very good at it like Chad Gerlach then I say more power to you but do it for those reasons and not the dollar signs. Oddly enough Chad saw the sport for what it was, probably because he had plenty of time to reflect on it when he was spending all those long cold nights sleeping in the streets instead of chasing that big money.
Many of the record breakers in Baseball who get paid millions are steroid users, so big money always seems to ruin sports. Instead, I would propose that top professional riders get paid much less, and capped eventually across the board. Since the definition of a professional is someone who get paid, they have to be paid. In the earlier times, being a professional meant someone who was paid to race, and today the definition of a professional pro women road racer is some that races on a pro UCI team and earns a salary. So rather then making their salary a dollar a year since I don't think that will work, I would propose that women pros get paid a decent salary to race, but not outrageous amounts of cash, which invites cheaters.
Make the salaries even across the board for all top women, and those in the middle, less money based on their pro status, ranking or level, and those at the bottom much less, maybe nothing much except some help like they get now as amateurs with talent. That might cultivate interest more from those who love to race as a lifestyle instead of those chasing the dollar signs or the elusion of market value. Still perhaps that would invite cheaters, but maybe to a less extent since massive amounts of cash would not be on the line. However women don't have to worry about that anyway, cause it natural to assume they will always be the warm up act to the pro men and they have never been offered millions to race. There is very little incentive for women to cheat now the way things are, but if they are going to be paid professionals, at least pay them a reasonable wage. I won't offer this idea for the men, you guys can figure that one out, but yes, the idea that cycling is a way to make a living is like chasing the rainbow to get the pot of gold, which is a ever changing elusive goalpost.
If you don't think they should be paid at all, then they must race as amatuers, which means they don't get paid, like the Roller Derby girls. Remember the Roller Derby girls used to be paid professionals. In that case, they could spend both the prize money and the money that goes for salaries on TV instead. Women could really use TV to promote their side of the sport now, and could then build their own market value based on that, or seek fame and fortune elsewhere.
Maybe I'm not think clearly though, its the punch bowl and the rum!
Lance Armstrong 11 milioni circa Alberto Contador 11 milioni circa Alejandro Valverde 2,3 milioni Philippe Gilbert 2 milioni Cadel Evans 1.7 milioni Filippo Pozzato 1 milione
GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: > Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo > Alto, and even Santa Barbara....
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level woman racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And don't say Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. Several really good women riders have made SB their temporary or permanent home, including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from some place else. Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of actually _from_ Santa Barbara?
> On Dec 31 2009, 6:01 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote: >> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote: >>> That's pretty good money for women's bike racing.
>> That was mountain biking and she was a media star.
>> I do not have anything against women making a lot of money in cycling. >> However, some of the numbers that you've posted in the past simply are >> not close to reality.
> "He estimated that the salaries for members of the women s team ranged > from a jersey and a bike to about $100,000 a year. Men s salaries > are from $45,000 to more than $2.5 million."
> Brooke Miller:
> "She said the salary she draws from cycling was so low it was > basically, You eat what you kill. "
> "There are riders in professional teams who are not paid, they are > simply given kit and loaned a bike, in other teams, the situation is a > little better and in others, riders are paid a salary which they can > live on. None of the riders though, earn anything like the salaries > earned by those in a similar position in the men s peleton."
> "The best we can strive and hope for in both the men s and the women s > sport, is that there is, at least a small salary or at minimum, good > contracts and conditions of employment."
> There are many more references out there. As you say, Giove's salary > was so high because of her wide range of sponsorships, the popularity > of her event, and her personality and performances. For your typical > working rider on a small women's pro team, the situation is radically > different. Even among decent riders pay levels are typically quite low > and vary widely across teams.
One of the biggest stars in women's cycling, Emma Johansson:
"I m not earning money as a cyclist. It s nothing I can put in a bank account and live off for the rest of my life! The day I stop cycling, I m going to have to go to work."
> > On Dec 31 2009, 6:01 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." wrote: > >> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote: > >>> That's pretty good money for women's bike racing.
> >> That was mountain biking and she was a media star.
> >> I do not have anything against women making a lot of money in cycling. > >> However, some of the numbers that you've posted in the past simply are > >> not close to reality.
> > "He estimated that the salaries for members of the womens team ranged > > from a jersey and a bike to about $100,000 a year. Mens salaries > > are from $45,000 to more than $2.5 million."
> > Brooke Miller:
> > "She said the salary she draws from cycling was so low it was > > basically, You eat what you kill."
> > "There are riders in professional teams who are not paid, they are > > simply given kit and loaned a bike, in other teams, the situation is a > > little better and in others, riders are paid a salary which they can > > live on. None of the riders though, earn anything like the salaries > > earned by those in a similar position in the mens peleton."
> > "The best we can strive and hope for in both the mens and the womens > > sport, is that there is, at least a small salary or at minimum, good > > contracts and conditions of employment."
> > There are many more references out there. As you say, Giove's salary > > was so high because of her wide range of sponsorships, the popularity > > of her event, and her personality and performances. For your typical > > working rider on a small women's pro team, the situation is radically > > different. Even among decent riders pay levels are typically quite low > > and vary widely across teams.
> One of the biggest stars in women's cycling, Emma Johansson:
> "Im not earning money as a cyclist. Its nothing I can put in a bank > account and live off for the rest of my life! The day I stop cycling, > Im going to have to go to work."
Ryan Cousineau wrote: > In article > <e6ab2053-2ce3-40a1-858b-38826202e...@k23g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, > ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 31 2009, 10:56 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." >> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> On Dec 31, 6:57 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
>>>> "Tom Kunich" <tkun...@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>>> news:1tCdnWsqMJfNx6DWnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@earthlink.com... >>>>> "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:Db2dndNn_5sBxKDWnZ2dnUVZ_gmdnZ2d@sti.net... >>>>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in >>>>>> message >>>>>> news:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: >>>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about. >>>>> That's sort of like saying - "Sheets are white". >>>> He's not current on what women make today, and I don't post salaries and >>>> the >>>> names of people earning those salaries, never have unless it was already >>>> public information. I stated general numbers across the board from over >>>> the >>>> years, which are based on factual information from reliable sources. >>>> Whatever he knew then is old news, and I doubt he has any contacts in >>>> Europe >>>> for what the UCI women are actually making there either. However, upwards >>>> of >>>> 300k a year is probably the most any women has made in cycling here. >>> <snip>
>>> Dumbass -
>>> There might be a vew women that can make good money. Those are the >>> ones that get a lot of publicity.
>>> The rest of them barely scrape by.
>>> I wish I was wrong about this.
>>> thanks,
>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. >> Dumbass -
>> Add to this the claim that MG 'allegedly' made that for a year, and in >> a sport that few of us would actually consider to be bike racing.
>> I'd bet that there isn't a single female cyclist in the world who made >> six figures US in 2009. Like you said, I'd like to be wrong, but I >> doubt I am.
> Hard to say for sure, but Missy Giove was not only active in women's DH > during the only year or two when the sport mattered (the peak of MTB > racing popularity), she was also the best in the world, working with > top-tier non-cycling sponsors (Reebok), and she had a highly marketable > image.
> Let's put it this way: the three active-in-the-90s pro women I've heard > of are Giove, Alison Dunlap, and Alison Sydor. And I've met Sydor. Sort > of: she fondled my shark hat while passing me in a cyclocross race. Or > was that Wendy Simms? Whatever.
> Here's a 1996 article that has probably already been posted into this > thread:
> It suggests "high six figures" for Giove's peak year of earnings.
Are we discussing what pro teams pay woman cyclists or is this about how much a top notch female cyclist could conceivably make in a year? They aren't the same thing.
Missy Giove might well have earned in the high six figures the same year her team paid her $75K. There's no contradiction.
> > It suggests "high six figures" for Giove's peak year of earnings.
> > -- > > Ryan Cousineau
> So where did all that cash go?
The mechanisms for blowing an early (and not that substantial) windfall of earnings are pretty well known. Basically, you get used to living on 300k a year, and then after 3-6 years the money goes away.
Even a prudent planner might want to live on, oh, 50k/year, which is hardly immodest, and if you assume a 200k house, well, that's maybe the house plus two years of income from one good year, and another six-odd years from every subsequent 300k year.
And here we are, about a decade from her career peak, eh?
The other part of the equation is similarly well-known: athlete spends the post-secondary years riding a bike instead of learning a trade. Stops riding bike? Nothing they can do.
-- Ryan Cousineau rcous...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >> Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo >> Alto, and even Santa Barbara.... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level woman > racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And don't say > Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. Several > really good women riders have made SB their temporary or permanent home, > including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from some place else. > Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of actually _from_ Santa > Barbara?
Sure, plenty.
UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him, he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road racing, plus single and double centuries.
Riders from Santa Barbara... Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara, Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, Lila Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.
> >>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> >> Dumbass -
> >> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >> women's teams for a few years?
> >> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> >> thanks,
> >> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > Dumbass-
> > You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > > team.....
> So he wasn't a manager?
Dumbass -
Road manager. I was never in charge of a team. Wouldn't want to be. Paperwork, budget, sponsors, all that busywork. I handled the logicistal racing end of stuff here in the Western US and did some stuff back east too, Tour of Toona and Tour of Ohio and the like.
The best result the team ever got was with Talgo when Sue Palmer- Kolmar won the women's RR at Sea Otter, so it wasn't exactly Cat 4 stuff like Fat Steve claims. Usually we'd have someone in the top 10 of the harder stage races - half the women were good climbers.
BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?
> > "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message > >news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... > >> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > >> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > >> "Kurgan. > >> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > >>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > >>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.co > >>>> m. > >>>> .. > >>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> >>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> >>> Dumbass -
> >>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >>> women's teams for a few years?
> >>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> >>> thanks,
> >>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> >> Dumbass-
> >> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > >> team.....
> > So he wasn't a manager?
> " Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > women's teams for a few years?"
> As I wrote above....... > What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
Dear Fat Steve -
Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which you have no firsthand information?
Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did West Coast.
The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the season they can take care of themselves.
I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making $300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that I can think of.
Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the shit in the feed zones and hear what was going on.
>> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >>> Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo >>> Alto, and even Santa Barbara.... > marco wrote: >> Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level woman >> racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And don't say >> Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. Several >> really good women riders have made SB their temporary or permanent home, >> including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from some place else. >> Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of actually _from_ Santa >> Barbara? GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: > Sure, plenty.
> UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists > have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the > moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him, > he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of > riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road > racing, plus single and double centuries.
> Riders from Santa Barbara... > Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara, > Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about > Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, Lila > Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.
Bruce, I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national level. To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and are/were decent local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more than recreational bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with those names. Do you know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just curious to know the places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is your friend who lives in Goleta? Mark
> >>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> >> Dumbass -
> >> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >> women's teams for a few years?
> >> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> >> thanks,
> >> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > Dumbass-
> > You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > > team.....
> So he wasn't a manager? >BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then >why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande >Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because >there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?
I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest make nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times, more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds between the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug, especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press, and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI wouldn't endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the problems over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell all book.
Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then any race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going to travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't seem by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.
Toona should be back to 7 stages, and prize money is said to be about 40k for the women, but this is tentative as of yet, not final yet that I know of. This could change. Its been moved to August as well, as it has a bad time slot in July. However, if you are asking if there are a shortage of races worldwide, not really. There is still a ton of UCI women's races on the calendar, and the World Cup is as strong as ever, same. The NRC calendar has shrunk some, but California has added more races, Redlands is still a strong draw. Prize money in US is better then Europe generally, but their UCI top women make more then domestic women. This year, I know of several very reasonable offers to domestic women to sign contracts on various teams. Obviously the economy has hurt cycling sponsors getting onboard, but new ones will come, always do.
> > > On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > > > 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > > > "Kurgan. > > > presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > > >>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > > >>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com. > > >>> .. > > >>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> > >>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> > >> Dumbass -
> > >> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > > >> women's teams for a few years?
> > >> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> > >> thanks,
> > >> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > > Dumbass-
> > > You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > > > team.....
> > So he wasn't a manager? > >BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then > >why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande > >Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because > >there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?
> I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest make > nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times, > more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds between > the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders > and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug, > especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of > races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press, > and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI wouldn't > endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all > French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the problems > over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell all > book.
> Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still > exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then any > race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the > remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always > part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going to > travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there > in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well > in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't seem > by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.
<snip>
Dumbass -
OK, you mention poor TV coverage and lack of publicity.
If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?
The answer is: there isn't.
Sponsors put the $$$ out there based upon the amount of publicity value in return. If the media coverage isn't there, the teams aren't going to be able to negotiate more money.
On 1/1/10 7:56 PM, in article beaf20c5-29b7-4282-b24f-1b8ed41d2...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message >>> news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... >>>> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article >>>> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, >>>> "Kurgan. >>>> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: >>>>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in >>>>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups. >>>>>> co >>>>>> m. >>>>>> .. >>>>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
>>>>> Dumbass -
>>>>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those >>>>> women's teams for a few years?
>>>>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>>>> Dumbass-
>>>> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens >>>> team.....
>>> So he wasn't a manager?
>> " Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those >> women's teams for a few years?"
>> As I wrote above....... >> What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
> Dear Fat Steve -
> Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which > you have no firsthand information?
> Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races > unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle > the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who > would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back > east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did > West Coast.
> The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the > season they can take care of themselves.
> I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making > $300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team > built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for > the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that > I can think of.
> Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or > anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the shit in the feed > zones and hear what was going on.
> thanks,
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....
You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done. You just had a schedule to go when you please and a trust fund to replace a job..
> >>> "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message > >>>news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... > >>>> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > >>>> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > >>>> "Kurgan. > >>>> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > >>>>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > >>>>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups. > >>>>>> co > >>>>>> m. > >>>>>> .. > >>>>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> >>>>> Dumbass -
> >>>>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >>>>> women's teams for a few years?
> >>>>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> >>>>> thanks,
> >>>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> >>>> Dumbass-
> >>>> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > >>>> team.....
> >>> So he wasn't a manager?
> >> " Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >> women's teams for a few years?"
> >> As I wrote above....... > >> What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
> > Dear Fat Steve -
> > Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which > > you have no firsthand information?
> > Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races > > unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle > > the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who > > would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back > > east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did > > West Coast.
> > The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the > > season they can take care of themselves.
> > I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making > > $300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team > > built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for > > the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that > > I can think of.
> > Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or > > anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the shit in the feed > > zones and hear what was going on.
> > thanks,
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....
> You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done.
Dearest Fat Steve -
When you're claiming that it was a Cat 4 team, you're insulting them, not me.
>>> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >>>> Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo >>>> Alto, and even Santa Barbara....
>> marco wrote: >>> Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level >>> woman racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And >>> don't say Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. >>> Several really good women riders have made SB their temporary or >>> permanent home, including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came from >>> some place else. Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of >>> actually _from_ Santa Barbara?
> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >> Sure, plenty.
>> UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists >> have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the >> moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him, >> he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of >> riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and road >> racing, plus single and double centuries.
>> Riders from Santa Barbara... >> Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara, >> Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about >> Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, >> Lila Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara.
> Bruce, > I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the > first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national > level. To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and > are/were decent local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more > than recreational bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with > those names. Do you know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just > curious to know the places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is > your friend who lives in Goleta? > Mark
Wait a minute, that doesn't seem to wash. According to CN, and especially other sources I have, those women were pro 1-2 road racers, not rec riders. However according to CN the NRC rankings at one point in 2001 listed these top world class riders, Mills from Santa Barbara was 38 on the NRC rankings.
1 Lyne Bessette Saturn (Canada) 2 Tina Mayolo-Pic autotrader.com (Buford, Ga.) 3 Ina Teutenberg Saturn (Germany) 4 Joanne Kiesanowski Proctor & Gamble (New Zealand) 5 Nicole Freedman Credit Suisse (Stanford, Calif.) 6 Petra Rossner Saturn (Germany) 7 Laura Charmeda Michella Fanini 38 Meridith Mills Echelon Santa Cruz (Santa Barbara, Calif.)
In 2001, Jeanson won Another Dam race in Arizona, Joanne Kiesanowski was 2nd. Jennifer Gabet of Goleta was 13th. I believe its Cat's Hill in 2001 she took 12th, Meredith Miller our national champion took 7th. I wouldn't exactly call Gabet a rec rider, hey? Again in 2002, Gabet took 6th in Arizona race which was won by Laura Van Gilder who has over 350 national victories.
In 2005, Angela Rebol is listed as taking 8th on the final GC in the Tour of Murrieta, note pro women here as well. Note Michelle La Pierre was 7th.
Elite women
1 Dotsie Cowden 2 Laura Yoisten 3 Carol Lynn Neal 4 Lana Atchley 5 Julia Whiteside 6 Melinda Johnson 7 Michelle LaPierre 8 Angela Rebol
2004 Mothball crit was won by Gagg, Angela took 16th, and I can tell you there were a number of big names in that race, pros. In the Tour of Murrieta 2005, Anglea took 8th on the final GC. Dot Cow won that race and again I can tell you a lot of big names were in that race, even Kim Anderson finished well down from your so called rec rider Angela Rebol.
In 1998, at the Collegiate Road Cycling Championship Greenville South Carolina, Amy Nett of Santa Barbara took 4th in the road race. Christine Thorburn was 10th. In the crit she was 8th just behind Tiffany Pezzulo who still races today. Thorburn again was 9th. In the final classment, she was like 8th, ahead of Thorburn by two places.
Lila Ferguson raced at least from 1998 to 2002 or later. She often took 2nd or 3rd behind Megan Long, a name you should know.
Angela Bell also raced a number of years and finished 19th on the final GC in the 2005 Tour of Murrieta in another year. Kim Anderson finished just ahead. She finished in the top five often in masters races for several years. Elite women
1 Dotsie Cowden 2 Laura Yoisten 3 Carol Lynn Neal
18 Kimberly Anderson 19 Angela Bell
Out of all the girls I mentioned, only two were cat 4, but not rec riders. While these facts are not perfect on the fly, good enough for rbr, but you said they were all rec riders, and that's simply not true.
On 1/1/10 9:52 PM, in article 7b76b744-aef8-4476-8ba7-9d7b9b3f2...@a15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 1, 9:11 pm, WTF <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >> On 1/1/10 7:56 PM, in article >> beaf20c5-29b7-4282-b24f-1b8ed41d2...@m16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, "Kurgan. >> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 1, 12:52 pm, WTF <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>> On 1/1/10 11:22 AM, in article ofudnYGypOf71qPWnZ2dnUVZ_gidn...@sti.net,
>>>>> "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... >>>>>> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article >>>>>> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, >>>>>> "Kurgan. >>>>>> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in >>>>>>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroup >>>>>>>> s. >>>>>>>> co >>>>>>>> m. >>>>>>>> .. >>>>>>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
>>>>>>> Dumbass -
>>>>>>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those >>>>>>> women's teams for a few years?
>>>>>>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
>>>>>>> thanks,
>>>>>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>>>>>> Dumbass-
>>>>>> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens >>>>>> team.....
>>>>> So he wasn't a manager?
>>>> " Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those >>>> women's teams for a few years?"
>>>> As I wrote above....... >>>> What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
>>> Dear Fat Steve -
>>> Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which >>> you have no firsthand information?
>>> Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races >>> unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle >>> the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who >>> would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back >>> east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did >>> West Coast.
>>> The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the >>> season they can take care of themselves.
>>> I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making >>> $300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team >>> built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for >>> the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that >>> I can think of.
>>> Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or >>> anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the shit in the feed >>> zones and hear what was going on.
>>> thanks,
>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>> Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....
>> You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done.
> Dearest Fat Steve -
> When you're claiming that it was a Cat 4 team, you're insulting them, > not me.
> >>>>> "WTF" <rbr...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message > >>>>>news:C7637B07.72CDD%rbrsux@dslextreme.com... > >>>>>> On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > >>>>>> 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > >>>>>> "Kurgan. > >>>>>> presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > >>>>>>>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroup > >>>>>>>> s. > >>>>>>>> co > >>>>>>>> m. > >>>>>>>> .. > >>>>>>>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> >>>>>>> Dumbass -
> >>>>>>> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >>>>>>> women's teams for a few years?
> >>>>>>> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> >>>>>>> thanks,
> >>>>>>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> >>>>>> Dumbass-
> >>>>>> You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > >>>>>> team.....
> >>>>> So he wasn't a manager?
> >>>> " Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > >>>> women's teams for a few years?"
> >>>> As I wrote above....... > >>>> What is you definition of a "part time road manager"?
> >>> Dear Fat Steve -
> >>> Why do you always pretend to have knowledge about situations in which > >>> you have no firsthand information?
> >>> Karen Menge ran the Jane's team, but she didn't go out to the races > >>> unless they were local. On the spring part of the season I'd handle > >>> the stuff out on the road. It was usually me and two other people who > >>> would double as soigneur/mechanic. In the late summers, I'd go back > >>> east and handle some of the races there too. For Talgo, I just did > >>> West Coast.
> >>> The riders need support in those stage races. For the crit part of the > >>> season they can take care of themselves.
> >>> I'm quite positive that none of the women in North America were making > >>> $300k at that time, not even Genvieve Jeanson who had an entire team > >>> built around her. Very few of the teams even had yearly budgets for > >>> the entire team that would reach that level. Probably only three that > >>> I can think of.
> >>> Those are just generalities. It's not like I saw the contracts or > >>> anything, but there was plenty of time to shoot the shit in the feed > >>> zones and hear what was going on.
> >>> thanks,
> >>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> >> Boo hoo! You must be real hurt.....
> >> You did not do anything that any other cyclist could not have done.
> > Dearest Fat Steve -
> > When you're claiming that it was a Cat 4 team, you're insulting them, > > not me.
> > thanks,
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> Nice way to agree with my last post...
Fat Steve -
You're totally right. I don't know jack shit about bike racing.
> > > On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > > > 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > > > "Kurgan. > > > presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > > >>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > > >>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com. > > >>> .. > > >>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> > >>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> > >> Dumbass -
> > >> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > > >> women's teams for a few years?
> > >> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> > >> thanks,
> > >> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > > Dumbass-
> > > You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > > > team.....
> > So he wasn't a manager? > >BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then > >why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande > >Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because > >there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?
> I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest > make > nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times, > more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds > between > the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders > and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug, > especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of > races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press, > and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI > wouldn't > endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all > French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the > problems > over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell > all > book.
> Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still > exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then > any > race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the > remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always > part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going > to > travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there > in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well > in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't > seem > by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.
<snip>
>If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's >tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?
Where did that come from? Tons more money?, cause I never said that, but as bad as things might be, I have heard some very reasonable offers for contracts. California has had modest benefits too courtesy proxy of TOC both in TV and fanbase here in the valley. Domestic teams are thin, but at least one has a UCI license this year, better then last year.
>>>> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >>>>> Add to that, many come from families who have money, like Marin, Palo >>>>> Alto, and even Santa Barbara.... >>> marco wrote: >>>> Perhaps I'm blanking on this, but I can't recall a single top-level >>>> woman racer having come from Santa Barbara in the last 20+ years. And >>>> don't say Lynn Brontzman/Gaggioli because she wasn't really from here. >>>> Several really good women riders have made SB their temporary or >>>> permanent home, including Kim Anderson right now, but they all came >>>> from some place else. Is there somebody specifically you're thinking of >>>> actually _from_ Santa Barbara? >> GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: >>> Sure, plenty.
>>> UCSB is actually in Goleta, and I am sure a few cat 1-2 women cyclists >>> have come out of there over the years, although I can't name any at the >>> moment from UCSB. I have a friend who lives in Goleta and I can ask him, >>> he would know cause he always working out over there, and seen a lot of >>> riders all over the place for the last 30 years. He does both MB and >>> road racing, plus single and double centuries.
>>> Riders from Santa Barbara... >>> Meredith Mills and Jennifer Gabet are both Cat 1-2, from Santa Barbara, >>> Gabet is from Goleta. Angela Rebol is from Santa Barbara, how about >>> Michelle La Pierre or Amanda McCoy, all from Santa Barbara. Amy Nett, >>> Lila Ferguson and Angela Bell are all pro cyclists from Santa Barbara. marco wrote: >> Bruce, >> I know or knew most of the women you mentioned above. They would be the >> first to tell you they are neither pro nor competitive at a national >> level. To be sure, they are all good people, very nice ladies, and >> are/were decent local racers, but none of them ever aspired to be more >> than recreational bike racers. Anyway, I'm curious how you came up with >> those names. Do you know any of them? I'm not being antagonistic, just >> curious to know the places that rbr and my real world cross paths. Who is >> your friend who lives in Goleta? GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: > Wait a minute, that doesn't seem to wash. According to CN, and especially > other sources I have, those women were pro 1-2 road racers, not rec > riders. However according to CN the NRC rankings at one point in 2001 > listed these top world class riders, Mills from Santa Barbara was 38 on > the NRC rankings.
> 1 Lyne Bessette Saturn (Canada) > 2 Tina Mayolo-Pic autotrader.com (Buford, Ga.) > 3 Ina Teutenberg Saturn (Germany) > 4 Joanne Kiesanowski Proctor & Gamble (New Zealand) > 5 Nicole Freedman Credit Suisse (Stanford, Calif.) > 6 Petra Rossner Saturn (Germany) > 7 Laura Charmeda Michella Fanini > 38 Meridith Mills Echelon Santa Cruz (Santa Barbara, Calif.)
> In 2001, Jeanson won Another Dam race in Arizona, Joanne Kiesanowski was > 2nd. Jennifer Gabet of Goleta was 13th. I believe its Cat's Hill in 2001 > she took 12th, Meredith Miller our national champion took 7th. I wouldn't > exactly call Gabet a rec rider, hey? Again in 2002, Gabet took 6th in > Arizona race which was won by Laura Van Gilder who has over 350 national > victories.
> In 2005, Angela Rebol is listed as taking 8th on the final GC in the Tour > of Murrieta, note pro women here as well. Note Michelle La Pierre was 7th.
> Elite women
> 1 Dotsie Cowden > 2 Laura Yoisten > 3 Carol Lynn Neal > 4 Lana Atchley > 5 Julia Whiteside > 6 Melinda Johnson > 7 Michelle LaPierre > 8 Angela Rebol
> 2004 Mothball crit was won by Gagg, Angela took 16th, and I can tell you > there were a number of big names in that race, pros. In the Tour of > Murrieta 2005, Anglea took 8th on the final GC. Dot Cow won that race and > again I can tell you a lot of big names were in that race, even Kim > Anderson finished well down from your so called rec rider Angela Rebol.
> In 1998, at the Collegiate Road Cycling Championship Greenville South > Carolina, Amy Nett of Santa Barbara took 4th in the road race. Christine > Thorburn was 10th. In the crit she was 8th just behind Tiffany Pezzulo who > still races today. Thorburn again was 9th. In the final classment, she was > like 8th, ahead of Thorburn by two places.
> Lila Ferguson raced at least from 1998 to 2002 or later. She often took > 2nd or 3rd behind Megan Long, a name you should know.
> Angela Bell also raced a number of years and finished 19th on the final GC > in the 2005 Tour of Murrieta in another year. Kim Anderson finished just > ahead. She finished in the top five often in masters races for several > years. > Elite women
> 1 Dotsie Cowden > 2 Laura Yoisten > 3 Carol Lynn Neal
> 18 Kimberly Anderson > 19 Angela Bell
> Out of all the girls I mentioned, only two were cat 4, but not rec riders. > While these facts are not perfect on the fly, good enough for rbr, but you > said they were all rec riders, and that's simply not true.
Bruce,
I'm sorry, but you are wrong in this matter. First of all, my words were "recreational racer" which I define as anybody who basically races locally or regionally, as opposed to following the national circuit, and for whom bike racing is a hobby. None of the women you mentioned were, or are, more than local or regional level riders. You can look up results all night if you want, but I know these ladies and I know what I'm talking about. Jenny and Meredith were cat 2 women racers who competed for a couple years mostly in California, but that is still recreational racing. Meredith's husband may still lurk on rbr and has posted here in the past. Please speak up Eric if you are reading this. I imagine you are having a good laugh. Angie Bell was over 50 years old in that result you listed above, and placing one spot in back of Kim Anderson in a pre-season po-dunk race does not make Angie a pro. Lila Ferguson was a junior, and as far as I recall, never raced in serious women's races. Angela Rebol was never higher than a cat 3 rider. Of the names you mentioned, only Michelle still races and she's in her mid 40's and is a cat 3.
Again, I like all these ladies a lot, but they are not pro bike racers.
Mark ps. Back on topic, how about you give your thoughts about the salaries of the Columbia/High Road ladies. And also, who is your friend in Goleta who races?
> > > > On 12/31/09 6:26 PM, in article > > > > 1fe6bcf5-9442-449c-a346-4feb00b2d...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com, > > > > "Kurgan. > > > > presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> On Dec 31, 6:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote: > > > >>> "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote in > > > >>> messagenews:28759a68-13eb-4cb5-a0d2-b1163fc05fcf@r5g2000yqb.googlegroups.com. > > > >>> .. > > > >>> On Dec 31, 1:10 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" <F...@EuroFans.com> wrote:
> > > >>> Bullshit, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.
> > > >> Dumbass -
> > > >> Do you remember that I was a part time road manager for one of those > > > >> women's teams for a few years?
> > > >> I wish you were correct, but unfortunately you are not.
> > > >> thanks,
> > > >> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > > > Dumbass-
> > > > You handed out water bottles and drove a vehicle for a Cat 4 Womens > > > > team.....
> > > So he wasn't a manager? > > >BTW, if the women are making so much money now, like you claim, then > > >why is it that races like 'Toona, Tour of Idaho (Ore Ida), Le Grande > > >Boucle Feminin existed then, but no longer exist today? Is it because > > >there's tons more money in the sport today? That's why they went away?
> > I don't claim that only women at the top make good money, and the rest > > make > > nothing. Even a number of riders in the middle made good money at times, > > more then you think. Grande Boucle was the victim by proxy of feuds > > between > > the UCI and the Tour. The Grande Boucle, in fact both French women riders > > and teams have really suffered in France and Pierre Boue pulled the plug, > > especially since the top two press photographers skipped it in favor of > > races in Italy like Giro De Feminin and Toscana. It was getting no press, > > and shrunk to only 3 stages, previously 17 stages in 2003. Also UCI > > wouldn't > > endorse it, probably fallout from the Tour problems according to Boue, all > > French related. In fact, Boue is so angry over the UCI and all the > > problems > > over the years that he is going to obtain a lawyer just to write a tell > > all > > book.
> > Women's Challenge suffered from poor TV coverage, a problem that still > > exists today. Prize money was certainly awesome in some years, more then > > any > > race on record for women. Problem was also that race had courses in the > > remote areas away from big cities where fans are. Many cities are always > > part of TOC courses, probably a fatal mistake for Idaho race. Who's going > > to > > travel way out there to see the race? Foothills race is also way out there > > in the foothills and it gets zero fans, but its counterpart does very well > > in the city crit. Without stellar TV coverage, Women's Challenge wasn't > > seem > > by many. I think there was like 50 minutes total of TV for all the stages.
> <snip>
> >If the TV coverage and publicity isn't there, how is it that there's > >tons more money in the sport than there was 8 years ago?
> Where did that come from? Tons more money?, cause I never said that,
Dumbass -
You said that my knowledge was obsolete.
I don't see how things have changed. If anything, things on the women's side look to be a bit worse since I was involved, with the demise of those big races.
