Training Qs: intervals, blowing up, fat...
Ryan Cousineau
-Lose a huge amount of weight
-up the wattage
I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
So, this year's strategy could be summarized as:
-goal-wise, I'm throwing long races and hill climbs under a bus. If they
help my training, fine, but it's going to be a long time before my body
composition makes me look like a climber*.
-I wouldn't mind doing well in crits, but as far as I'm concerned, the
whole purpose of road season this year is to get me back into race
shape. If I come good for some of the August crits, fine. If not, CX
season is soon enough.
Given that like all fatty masters, I have limited time (that beer won't
drink itself, you know), my current plan is to strive for 2-3 serious
training sessions per week, plus as much high-HR work as I can manage on
my commute (which, bizarrely, consists of four 15-minute rides a day: I
go home for lunch).
Here's a typical training, er, plan:
-multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
get to the crit on time.
-yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
-ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
(as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
ho!)
I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
historically made me strong fast.
If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
*will never happen.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
A R:nen
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous? Am I sabotaging the CX season
> with my devotion to intervals, when I should just work on hour-power or
> something? Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless? I
> don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
Doesn't sprint training actually help CX? I mean, you do have to get
back up to speed after each dismount/slow section and each one of
those accelerations is essentially like a small sprint (though you
don't want to go all out any further than what you can manage to
recover from in the time before the next dismount).
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
strengths to the favor of others.
In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
(unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
that other rubbish.
The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
Joseph
Bill C
>
> - Show quoted text -
Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
the metabolism up, and fat burning.
Something like a 1-2 hour ride in the AM before breakfast at about
75%, breakfast, snack, circuit type workout w/no rest between sets and
exercises, lighter weights, more reps, keep moving!!, lunch, afternoon
ride, about same as the morning ride, dinner, late mostly protein
snack about an hour before bed, should be well under 20grams protein,
and minimal carbs.
Basically the day in this cycle goes, high carb/low protein in the
AM to the opposite before bed.
the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
Throwing in some sprints, and occasional LT/anaerobic work shouldn't
hurt at all and would probably help since the body is SO good at
adaptation to a routine. You've got to keep changing things up for
consistant gains. Cycle the amount of calories too around the target
weight/projected rate of loss, calculated figure. Give yourself a day
or two a week/10 days that's actually a little higher than the
baseline to help keep the metabolism up too. Anecdote says that L-
Carnitine is the standard supplement suggested, and commonly used to
aid in this. My results weren't conclusive, but it wasn't spendy, and
didn't hurt.
You might want to talk with a nutritionist/trainer who's current too.
If you do make sure they are certified. Usually an eval, and basic
plan isn't too expensive, and the objective set of eyes can really
make a difference. Think of how many times we've all looked at
something, over and over, and yet never saw it/couldn't find it, until
"DOH!" someone else pointed it out.
Bill C
Nobody
>I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
>power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
Gaining even a little weight can cause a significant speed drop.
Losing weight may not cause noticeable improvement in speed in the
casual rider who is not genetically gifted or using enhancing
substances.
Variety of factors apply. Some direct, some indirect, others seem
opposite of expectations, some factors confound attempts to track
improvements. (many variables, variable influence of those factors,
individual variation).
Best suggestion? Try to eliminate variables when testing, be sure and
track things (spreadsheets?). Don't lose motivation, keep trying.
Beware regaining weight - maintenance is more challenging than losing.
2 cents.
Nobody
<trito...@verizon.net> wrote:
>I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
>the metabolism up, and fat burning.
How much did you lose, over what period of time?
What was your speed pre and post loss?
Just curious.
Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
genetically superior, or on PEDs.
Bill C
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:00:55 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> >I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> >the metabolism up, and fat burning.
>
> How much did you lose, over what period of time?
>
> What was your speed pre and post loss?
>
> Just curious.
>
> Figures I've seen suggest only 85% of loss is pure fat, unless
> genetically superior, or on PEDs.
I wasn't racing bicycles then much, I was doing some duathlons, but
mostly power lifting/BB stuff. My weight bounced from 215/225
depending on how much I was focused on power during that large cycle.
heavier when going into a lifting competition of something like that,
down to 185 at around 5% bodyfat for BB which was about my best, and I
stayed in those ranges for about 10 years since I am not genetically
gifted. Coming down from 225 was probably 4 months, 215 about 3 when
trying to retain muscle. There was definitley a strength loss when
coming down, but power to weight wasn't a factor there. Neither was
extended aerobic power. I'd have to dig through my old training logs
for times on a, roughly, 45 minute TT I used to do regularly about
once every other week, which would be the only ride that day, just to
shake up the training and try and correlate it with the weight and
bodyfat levels which I have somewhere. Memory says I was slightly
faster going down to about 10lbs from the goal, then in that last
10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower, and
losing more in the gym too.
Unfortunately the last of this is close to 10 years ago now when the
injuries started catching up with me so the details aren't real sharp
without digging logs out.
I have managed to put on muscle while maintaining the bodyfat level
but it's a lot slower than taking some fat with the muscle gain.
keeping the muscle while losing the fat is, easily, the hardest thing
to do in BB. That's why there are so many drugs used out there,
especially, once your close, diuretics that help get rid of the excess
water "puffiness" from the steroids for razor sharp "cuts". At the
"pro" level, around show times, peoples electrolyte levels and body
chemistry is frequently, totally screwed up resulting in massive
cramping onstage, or in back, one top five type had to literally be
carried off stage and taken to the hospital, and trips to the
hospital, or EMT and then hospital from this crap.
I think most competitive cyclists, that have been racing for a few
years, are close enough, and knowledgeable enough that big gains are
going to be really hard to come by. As others have said a few percent
that is sustainable is a big gain.
From talking to good cycling trainers I don't think the small bf/
weight changes are going to be a big thing if Ryan is looking for more
power/sprinting. More a different structure to the training.
Bill C
Amit Ghosh
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
dumbass,
liposuction and blood transfusion.
William Asher
> I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
<snip>
> Thanks for any suggestions, even the funny ones.
Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence.
--
Bill Asher
Steve Freides
news:rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
Losing weight is, for most people, 90% about diet. It sounds like
you're getting plenty of exercise already. Most people find some sort
of resistance training (read: lifting weights) helps. The conventional
wisdom about dieting is, IMHO, severely lacking these days. Google
"Warrior Diet" and "Intermittent Fasting" to see what I have found works
for me, my wife, and lots of other folks, too. I have always been
basically thin and I eat this way because I prefer it, not because I
have to for reasons of body composition.
In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
to continuing to ride your bike.
Donald Munro
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition to
> continuing to ride your bike.
And drink less beer.
Nobody
<trito...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Memory says I was slightly faster going down to about
>10lbs from the goal,
Motivation is typically very high at this point. It can overwhelm
other factors. (Pedaling in anger/joy?)
>that last 10lbs, which I always had a miserable time with, getting slower,
Percent muscle loss increases as you get closer to goal. Less
available fat to lose (some fat=stubborn).
Guessing heavier than about 180lbs too many factors work against
cycling speed and climbing in average person. Some gifted guys are
built to ride fast and weigh more, but are rare, istm.
Thanks for the info!
Bret
Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
herring diet.
Bret
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.
Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.
I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
mention way faster.
Joseph
Steve Freides
news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
Absolutely, especially immediately post-training.
Bret
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
This sounds like you want to train your strength. I suggest that
instead of sprint training, you train the areas that limit your
chances to contest the sprint. A variety of intervals that train
aerobic capacity, sustained hard efforts above AT, and recovery would
help more.
As someone with a good sprint, I never felt a need to train it. I'm in
poor shape right now, but the sprint is mostly still there.
> Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
The training above is compatible with CX. Lots of criterium
specialists do very well at CX.
For the diet, eliminate junk food and any other food that leads to
bingeing behavior. It helps to have a very standard diet day to day
that is easy to stick to. When I'm in training it goes something like
this:
7:00am - coffee with one piece of toast
10:30am - yogurt and muselli to fuel my noon ride
12:00pm - noon ride
2:00pm - moderate lunch
8:00pm - moderate dinner
The key points are fueling properly for the noon ride, refueling
moderately after the ride, and then having a period between lunch and
dinner where I'm willing to endure some hunger.
I used to quit drinking on New Years day every year and wouldn't touch
a drop until I decided that the serious part of my racing season was
over. There is no serious part any more.
Bret
Scott
You didn't mention the bottle of wine you share with your lovely wife
with nearly every 'moderate dinner', or was that just a story you told
me that day to make me feel better about having had a few beers the
night before a cx race?
Bret
We still do that. Scratch the word "nearly". I wasn't going to give
Ryan any drinking advice. That would be like giving Tom Boonen
sprinting advice.
Bret
Scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
or, Tom Kunich!
Bret
It would be like giving Kunich drama queen advice.
Off The Back
>I have two goals right now:
>
> -Lose a huge amount of weight
> -up the wattage
The good news is that by doing the former the right way, you will
undoubtedly also get the latter for free.
And by the right way, I simply mean keep a good diet. "Eat food, not too
much, mostly plants" -- Ben Franlin. (Don't forget that hops are plants!)
And with your additional riding, you'll run a small calorie deficit, so that
by CX season you'll have shed most of that extra weight.
> I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
More good news... training your sprint is fast and easy (relative to upping
your aerobic power or anaerobic capacity). Despite what Robert says, do one
sprint work-out a week with 10-15 full-out bursts of 10-15 seconds each with
adequate recovery in-between. Takes less than an hour. As long as you still
have at least 5-10 hours a week for your high-aerobic-zone work, then work
on your sprint also, if for no other reason than it will be fun when you go
around Burnaby really fast.
> Here's a typical training, er, plan:
>
> -multi-modal commute halfway across town, 25ish km in multiple sections.
> Because of the hills and the timing, I have to ride faster than slow to
> get to the crit on time.
> -yes, crit: ride Cat 4 crit until I explode spectacularly, and then keep
> riding until I get lapped or show signs of endangering the sprint.
> -ride home in a very screwed-up state, probably have to stop for a
> drink. This ride reverses the commute, but the hills are more favorable.
>
> The goal is to do a fairly long ride that will burn fat, but to throw
> enough high-HR riding in that I build power. Is it dumb to combine these
> activities? Is it dumber than not doing one or the other at all?
I don't know what you mean by fairly long, but as Ben Franklin also once
said, "Fat burns best in a hot flame", meaning you actually burn more fat at
higher power output. You'll have to experiement to find your own... ,err,
sweet spot, where you do the most work (in the physics sense) for your
entire training session, ...if the goal is to burn fat.
> I'm certainly in such a state, physically, right now that any serious
> riding is likely to help, but I don't want to be doing some sort of
> ridiculous physiological suicide that will be totally counterproductive
> (as, for example, I suspect long rides at 25 km/h would be. Junk miles
> ho!)
If you have limited time, 25 kph rides are indeed junk, unless you need them
for recovery. Koach K is korrect that you need easy recovery rides, but only
after you've really taxed yourself with your hard rides.
> I will also try to pack in a few dedicated sessions of riding hard,
> 60-90s intervals uphill (3 sets of 3 to start), since that has
> historically made me strong fast.
Personally, I wouldn't do those until your threshold W/kg has started to
level off. If you do these 60-90 sec intervals all-out, they can really
compromise your training for several days afterward. On the other hand, if
you actually enjoy these kind of intervals, then you either aren't doing
them hard enough, or you are sick in the head.
> Finally, are my training goals ridiculous?
No.
> Am I sabotaging the CX season with my devotion to intervals,
> when I should just work on hour-power or something?
No. Whether you do those 60-90 second intervals, or aerobic-threshold work
(e.g., sweet-spot training), you will improve substantially.
> Is training for both CX and sprinting purely hopeless?
Unless you are training your sprint to beat Andrew Randell or Zach Bell,
then it shouldn't consume much of your time or energy, so it won't interfere
with CX.
> I don't see a lot of peloton-ing happening at the front end of local "B"
> CX races, but then I don't see a lot of the front of those races, period.
...which is precisely why improving your threshold W/kg will get you to the
front of those races.
BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind of
event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/designing-bike-racer.html
...but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
it doesn't really matter:
http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/continuing-discussion.html
...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."
Good luck Ryan!
Paul G.
wrote:
>
> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in addition
> to continuing to ride your bike.
Hmmnnn... move heavy objects... does getting out of my easy chair
count? I guess I could strap my remotes to barbells too...
Fortunately, I live in a cycling paradise, so continuing to ride my
bike is easy enough...
-Paul
Paul G.
>
> Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
> herring diet.
I dunno about red herring, but I can attest to the ineffectiveness of
the Trader Joe's smoked kippered herring diet.
Colin Campbell
Same paradise as mine, Southern Cal?
Michael Press
<rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
and with the physical effort you outline
is a huge jolt to the body. You should
find out everything you can about large
weight loss, including how to maintain.
Have you seriously considered a lifelong
commitment to maintaining some particular
weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
up, dissipating the results of your effort?
A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
concentrating on portion size. I recommend
the no-guilt diet.
--
Michael Press
Ryan Cousineau
"Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
For heaven's sake!
Beer is WHY I engage in a sport with high cardio-training requirements.
So I can drink beer!
Dumbassess...
PS: good advice, will consider.
Ryan Cousineau
Interesting theory, but I suspect not. The ideal in CX is probably
something very close to constant power, and the accelerations after a
well-done remount (at least for me) are not huge: you're supposed to run
fast while off the bike so you don't have to accelerate to get back on.
Wattage probably goes up while running, but in most cases the runs are
brief. Around here, it's not at all unusual to have barrier sections
that last 1-3 seconds, and typically there's one longer run-up, but I
can't think of any that were longer than 15s or so.
My impression of the running sections in CX is that they usually have
more to do with making smooth transitions off and on the bike.
Running? Transitions! Aaah! That's triathlete talk!
Ryan Cousineau
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If the biggest result from my training is that I lose 25 pounds and
> > maintain some semblance of current power, I will be highly competitive
> > in the local crits, and should shoot up the CX results as if I was
> > experimenting with The Shit That Will Kill Them.
>
> Losing 25 pounds in the time frame
> and with the physical effort you outline
> is a huge jolt to the body. You should
> find out everything you can about large
> weight loss, including how to maintain.
> Have you seriously considered a lifelong
> commitment to maintaining some particular
> weight range? Or are you at risk to blimp
> up, dissipating the results of your effort?
Let's put it this way:
mid-1996 (living in LA, no exercise, apparently lost weight by osmosis):
156 lbs.
mid-2000 (got married): 190 lbs.
mid-2001 (wife cooks well and healthy): 175 lbs.
2002-2005 progressive reductions in normal mid-summer weight of about 5
lbs. per year, peaking with a record low of 148 lbs. in August 2005,
when I won 5 mid-week crit primes in a row and took some podiums.
2006-2007: the enfattening. Due to personal distractions from the
important work of riding my bike (grand finale was knee problems), I
blimp up to 180 by the start of 2008.
2008: to quote Daniel Coyle, er, Ben Franklin, speaking about Jan
Ullrich, er, Ben Franklin: "fat boy was pissed." Time to stop making the
donuts.
I'm already reasonably happy with my training, in that unlike last year,
I'm consistently getting on my bike and riding.
> A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
> concentrating on portion size. I recommend
> the no-guilt diet.
I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.
In 2005, what "worked" for me was essentially eating whatever I wanted
and riding a (for me) ridiculous amount. I was physically unable to
catch up to the calorie debts I was inducing. The system worked!
I don't have a good idea of what to do long-term, most especially for
off-season. The eat-whatever diet probably will be not too bad as long
as I keep riding as much as I am, but it's quite clear I'm just
consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
doughnuts) calories.
Ryan Cousineau
"Off The Back" <marco_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[good advice snipped]
> ...but as I wrote in the follow-up, until you've dropped the extra weight,
> it doesn't really matter:
> http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/continuing-discussion.html
> ...which I got a lot of flack for, and some emails both nasty and
> supportive, the best comment was from Ben Franklin: "Bike racing is not
> healthy. But if you want to go fast, here's what to do."
That post was really useful, right up to the point where you mentioned
chocolate. Now, right after dinner, I don't want to weigh 150 lbs, I
want chocolate! So that part pretty much screwed the rest of the post.
Ahem. However, it seems that you're affirming my other idea, which is
that if the weight drops, the rest is details. The process of weighing
less alone will help everything else, and the best way to weigh less is
to ride often and hard.
> Good luck Ryan!
Thanks. I soon hope to be the fastest Cat 4 on the planet. After that, I
will work on being better at Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu than any 7-year-old on
the planet.
> Mark
> http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com
Paul G.
Hmmnnnn. Isn't SoCal more of a surfer's paradise? I only go there
when I have to, like for funerals. I'm in Sonoma County. We have a
lot of scenic backroads, vineyards, redwoods, some good climbs,
creeks, lakes and the coast. The first two stages of the Tour of
California pass thru here.
-Paul
Nobody
>25lbs of flab gone makes a HUGE difference.
>
>Someone (like a bodybuilder) who has excess muscle mass may find it
>hard to maintain that mass while losing small amounts of fat, but a
>fatso with a 25lbs spare tire isn't going to have a hard time of it.
>I'm a fan of (relatively) high protein diets.
>
>I lost 50-60lbs riding, and I am WAY stronger than I was then. Not to
>mention way faster.
>
>Joseph
Good job, but too vague. IOW, if you were 350lbs and are now 290, I'd
be skeptical of claims of 'faster', unless you consider going from
12mph to 14mph _on average_ 'fast'. :)
But if you were 225 and are now 160, I'd agree.
I also lost 50+ lbs, and am still riding about the same speed on the
flats.
What's your avg speed then vs now, if you don't mind saying?
TIA.
Nobody
wrote:
>I'm just
>consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
>that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
>me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
>doughnuts) calories.
I would suggest getting a 'good enough' idea of how many calories you
are consuming versus how many you consume to not gain any weight.
(maintenance)
Theoretically, going only 100 calories over your maintenance every day
for a year is going to end up causing a weight gain of 1lb every 6
months, unless you're young. (all other things being equal).
It's not much food. Just one extra tblspoon of peanut butter above
maintenance, for instance.
That -could- translate to about 10-12lbs weight gain per year, esp if
you're over 35-40 and work desk..
If you're young and have an active job, you burn it off. If you go
from active job to sedentary, you start gaining.
To lose 1lb per week, you have to eat 500 cals/day Less. Or burn 250
more than you do now (riding for 40min), and eating 250 less, or 2.5
tblspoons of peanut butter less -every- day for a week.
(Usually fat -loss- is a bit slower than that, due to other factors.)
Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
consistency/motivation comes and goes.
Nobody
>Theoretically, going only 100 calories over your maintenance every day
>for a year is going to end up causing a weight gain of 1lb every 6
>months,
Oops, that's every six weeks, not months. Sorry. :)
Ryan Cousineau
Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 May 2008 01:34:26 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I'm just
> >consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
> >that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
> >me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
> >doughnuts) calories.
>
> I would suggest getting a 'good enough' idea of how many calories you
> are consuming versus how many you consume to not gain any weight.
> (maintenance)
>
> Theoretically, going only 100 calories over your maintenance every day
> for a year is going to end up causing a weight gain of 1lb every 6
> weeks, unless you're young. (all other things being equal).
When I was semi-serious about training 3 years ago, I used FitDay for a
few months to track my caloric intake. It was quite revealing, though I
was eating pretty well then.
I gave up on FitDay because the user interface stank.
> It's not much food. Just one extra tblspoon of peanut butter above
> maintenance, for instance.
>
> That -could- translate to about 10-12lbs weight gain per year, esp if
> you're over 35-40 and work desk..
>
> If you're young and have an active job, you burn it off. If you go
> from active job to sedentary, you start gaining.
34 and with a semi-active job. I have to get up and walk around the
campus to fix things.
> Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> consistency/motivation comes and goes.
I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
Kyle Legate
> the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
> activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
>
You forgot to mention the ECA stack.
Howard Kveck
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
> control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.
My experience was that portion and impulse control were big (ahem) factors in me
getting sort of heavy (mid 190s, oy!) back in the '90s. I'd sit down and just eat
whatever was there. Hey, it was tasty food! As for impulse control, I'd be sitting
reading a book and have to go look in the fridge. Funny, the same stuff was there 20
minutes earlier. I figured out that I was doing it because of boredom. I was riding a
lot (250 to 300 miles a week) so I should have had caloric debt. Anyway, I tend to
eat less food now and certainly do a lot less fridge runs (probably almost zero). I
ride a lot less (probably half or two thirds what I used to) and I do still eat a
diet with a fair amount of rich food but my weight is much better (158 or so).
> I don't have a good idea of what to do long-term, most especially for
> off-season. The eat-whatever diet probably will be not too bad as long
> as I keep riding as much as I am, but it's quite clear I'm just
> consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
> that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
> me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
> doughnuts) calories.
I'd agree with that last bit. I don't think the odd bit of splurging on something
like a donut or ice cream is what causes the problems, at least it doesn't cause them
for me. Learning to feel satisfied with a smaller quantity of your main meals helps
you not do the eat until you can't fit any more in thing. Doing that helped me only
add 5 pounds or so in the winter and that came off really quickly.
--
tanx,
Howard
Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
40km/h.
I am convinced that a high protein diet (Zone-like) helps keep muscle
and helps control appetite which I feel is critical to losing weight.
And the easy things like eliminating mayonaise from sandwiches, etc.
Use more mustard instead, for example. Sparkling water instead of
juice or soda. Plain yogurt instead of fruit yogurt, big salads with
no oil. The trick is to give your body what it needs to run, and to
rebuild, but cut out the handful of daily surplus calories. The daily
surplus that needs to be eliminated is only 2-300 kcal, if that. Those
can be trimmed without resorting to drastic measures, and without it
feeling like some kind of deprivation.
For an overweight person, there is probably only 30 seconds in each
day where they are overdoing it in the eating department. The trick is
to find those 30 seconds and change them.
Joseph
Donald Munro
> We still do that. Scratch the word "nearly". I wasn't going to give Ryan
> any drinking advice. That would be like giving Tom Boonen sprinting
> advice.
But maybe Ryan needs someone to give him a lead out.
Donald Munro
>> Don't focus on pedaling at a higher cadence.
Bret wrote:
> Chung will post a chart demonstrating the ineffectiveness of the red
> herring diet.
The cannibal diet is supposed to be good for cyclists.
Donald Munro
> BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind
> of event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:
> http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/designing-bike-racer.html
Thats pretty good, thanks. Now all you need do is a bit of research
on how super-motivation and panache can be used to optimise your
spider plot. Send your paper to ben for grading.
My only suggestion would be perhaps be a slightly lighter shade of grey on
the black (and maybe a few porn links).
Bill C
Never bothered with that stuff. I watched people fork out big dollars
for the stuff because it was in the magazines and get nowhere.
Drinking tea seemed to do as much for me as their "stack" was doing
for them, and I wasn't a complete twitch all the time. Thought about
it, especially since I had a ton of trouble building my arms, along
with the other chemical goodies, but it was never worth it to me. Way
too many nasty side effects, and you've really got no idea what's
actually in the stuff you're getting off the street, or up from
Mexico. If you're lucky it's just saline with something harmless to
make it burn a bit going in so it feels right. I can't remember the
name now, but one of the big time steroid busts turned out to be about
90% of stuff like that. Not a good thing for your customers to find
out.
Bill C
Bill C
>
>
> I'd agree with that last bit. I don't think the odd bit of splurging on something
> like a donut or ice cream is what causes the problems, at least it doesn't cause them
> for me. Learning to feel satisfied with a smaller quantity of your main meals helps
> you not do the eat until you can't fit any more in thing. Doing that helped me only
> add 5 pounds or so in the winter and that came off really quickly.
>
> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> Whatever happened to
> Leon Trotsky?
> He got an icepick
> That made his ears burn.
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
It's actually pretty easy to build allowances for that stuff into a
planned diet, and it seems to help avoid the binging and cravings.
Building in allowances for a couple of beers is pretty easy too since
they're not bad calories, just empty, and not a terrible amount of
them either, especially for a casual racer who's riding quite a bit.
I'd say you've got it pretty well figured out Howard. It's tough if
you're the only one eating trying to eat healthy in a house too. If
you don't kill each other, someone else eating the same way, and
keeping an eye on each other can be a huge help.
Just no way around it, until it becomes an ingrained, habitual
lifestyle, it's a tough gig to stick with. Once you know where the
pitfalls are, can estimate portions pretty closely, learn which
restaurants you can go to, etc...it gets a lot easier, just takes a
lot of work and dedication to get there.
Bill C
Steve Freides
news:rcousine-2A97A1.18044113052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
> In article <68ub35F...@mid.individual.net>,
> "Steve Freides" <st...@fridayscomputer.com> wrote:
>
>> "Donald Munro" <fat-d...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:4829d405$0$2984$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com...
>> > Steve Freides wrote:
>> >> In short, eat less, and find heavy objects and move them - in
>> >> addition to
>> >> continuing to ride your bike.
>> >
>> > And drink less beer.
>>
>> Absolutely, especially immediately post-training.
>>
>> -S-
>> http://www.kbnj.com
>
> For heaven's sake!
>
> Beer is WHY I engage in a sport with high cardio-training
> requirements.
>
> So I can drink beer!
>
> Dumbassess...
>
> PS: good advice, will consider.
:)
<RAMBLE>
I have to admit I've never been much of an alcohol drinker, so not
having much isn't a big deal to me. Funny thing - I remember when my
wife and I were, 20+ years ago, traveling in France and Italy, and
drinking a liter of wine between us every night. You do get used to it,
no doubt, and if I drank more than the half a beer once every few weeks
I usually now have, I'm sure it wouldn't make me quite so much feel like
s#$% later. But the other side of that coin is that my exercise wasn't
a priority to me back then, and it is now, and there's a difference
between taking care of yourself well enough to be a tourist or ride a
desk the next day when you're 20-something and taking care of yourself
well enough to push yourself pretty hard athletically when you're
middle-aged and beyond.
For the record, that half a beer (yes, I know it's criminal not to
finish your beer - I have no defense) is Guinness Stout. I figure half
a Stout is worth one regular beer, anyway. :)
Last but not least, I am firmly convinced that, regardless of what sport
you enjoy engaging in, resistance training becomes more and more
important the older you get. I got by just fine without it until my
early 40's or so, and was a regular runner and swimmer as well. FWIW,
I was never a triathlete, I just enjoyed all three so I ran most days,
biked 2-3 times a week (your basic A level club rider, including a lot
of fixed gear), and swam 2-3 times a week. It was my wife who commented
that I was too skinny - she looked at me and said I had basically no
upper body muscle and was starting to get a little belly - that's when I
started to moving heavy objects, and weight lifting has been berry,
berry good to me since. I'm exactly the same weight I've always been
but my bodyfat percentage has dropped a few points and I still look like
a runner or bikie according to most folks, which is fine w/ me - no need
to look like an ironhead if you know how to lift to improve your
strength without encouraging growth in muscle size.
</RAMBLE>
Steve Freides
news:96f5e1b1-eaac-47a4...@w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
As I say in my long, rambling reply to the OP, it ain't the same. All
kidding aside, you could do a lot worse than to find a big rock in your
back yard, pick it up, and move it a few times. Taking a sledge hammer
to an old tire, even the lowly pushup or bodyweight squat adjusted to
your strength level can help, e.g., I do one-legged squats and one-armed
pushups - no need for weights, plenty of strength training right there.
Hoisting $20 duffel bag, a heavy plastic bag inside that, and a couple
of 50 lb bags of sand dumped inside is another easy, low-cost way to get
stronger.
Steve "5'7", 150 lbs., 53 years old" Freides
SLAVE of THE STATE
> In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 May 2008 01:34:26 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >I'm just
> > >consuming way too many calories, and my theory is the best way to work
> > >that out is to just really work hard on avoiding the behavior that leads
> > >me to consume certain types of marginal (as in the extra 10%, not as in
> > >doughnuts) calories.
>
> > I would suggest getting a 'good enough' idea of how many calories you
> > are consuming versus how many you consume to not gain any weight.
> > (maintenance)
>
> > Theoretically, going only 100 calories over your maintenance every day
> > for a year is going to end up causing a weight gain of 1lb every 6
> > weeks, unless you're young. (all other things being equal).
>
> When I was semi-serious about training 3 years ago, I used FitDay for a
> few months to track my caloric intake. It was quite revealing, though I
> was eating pretty well then.
>
> I gave up on FitDay because the user interface stank.
>
> > It's not much food. Just one extra tblspoon of peanut butter above
> > maintenance, for instance.
>
> > That -could- translate to about 10-12lbs weight gain per year, esp if
> > you're over 35-40 and work desk..
>
> > If you're young and have an active job, you burn it off. If you go
> > from active job to sedentary, you start gaining.
>
> 34 and with a semi-active job. I have to get up and walk around the
> campus to fix things.
Oh good. I'll send you a list of things to fix on campus. (There are
some things that can't be fixed.)
> > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
>
> I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
William Asher
So is removing a testicle, but nobody suggested that either.
--
Bill Asher
Paul G.
Ryan Cousineau
<0af18a9d-6235-4223...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> On May 13, 9:09 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
> >
> > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.
Think I'll stick to wine,
b...@mambo.ucolick.org
> On May 13, 6:03 am, "joseph.santanie...@gmail.com"
> <joseph.santanie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 13, 5:07 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have two goals right now:
>
> > > -Lose a huge amount of weight
> > > -up the wattage
>
> > > I'm mostly interested in sprint bursts of power, since every race I ever
> > > won, I won from a sprint, and this Fall I'll probably start riding track.
>
> > > Conversely, I really, really like CX, so I wouldn't want to throw my
> > > 30-minute power under a bus, and while I don't care either way about
> > > TTs, I always seem to enjoy them while I'm actually doing them (I
> > > realize that may mean I'm doing it wrong).
>
> > I don't see how losing 25lbs should have to have a negative effect on
> > power. We are talking fat, not muscle.
>
> > As for sprint vs CX, my take is that with -25lbs it's not going to
> > matter. And the general fitness gains from the more rigourous plan
> > will just make you better all around. I think one has to be SUPER
> > strong before specialization comes at the cost of sacrificing some
> > strengths to the favor of others.
>
> > In other words, the strong guys who are faster than you can probably
> > ride away from you in a TT, up a hill, and in a sprint, and CX too
> > (unless they suck at bike handling). Specialization doesn't really
> > matter at this level, fitness does. Same goes for peaking, and all
> > that other rubbish.
>
> > The main thing IMO is in general more riding, with more intensity will
> > make you stronger and thus faster. Losing weight will also make you
> > faster (duh). There are myriad ways to optimize how you do the work
> > you are going to do in training, and how to schedule recovery or
> > whatever you want to call it, but the short version is "ride lots."
>
> Unless you're incredibly careful with the diet, and training you are
> going to lose some muscle, unfortunately. The "cutting up" phase for a
> bodybuilder heading into a competition is really a mixed bag, since
> you really start seeing all the muscles pop out, but you are also
> losing some size you killed yourself to add, but since Ryan isn't
> looking to go to that extreme it's pretty doable with losing minimal
> amounts of muscle, or if he wants to lose slower you can hold, or gain
> muscle, but it's tricky to only lose fat. I'd suggest looking for "pre-
> contest" diet and training routines which adapt really well to
> cycling. I used cycling as the primary, non-impact, tool for keeping
> the metabolism up, and fat burning.
If all you're interested in doing is bike racing, not any
other stuff (lifting, or other exercise that requires a lot
of muscle, or being Nothstein, or physically demanding
jobs), you don't need to worry much about losing the muscle.
Bike racers don't really need that much muscle mass.
Even road sprinters can be pretty small.
Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
any beer.
In terms of training for specific goals, like CX, then
the type of riding starts to matter and "ride lots" isn't
specific enough. That is, five hour rides will help take
the fat off, but beyond some base level, they won't help
with 30-40 min CX races as much as shorter more
intense efforts would. Assuming limited training time
and volume, as for most of us Masters Fatties.
Although most CX races at the M.F. B level won't be
sprinting contests, it is more subtle than just a 30 min
TT, because in a CX course there tend to be hard parts
and (very brief) recovery opportunities. So the ability
to surge (not exactly the same as sprinting) and recover
is useful. Surging and smooth transitions are what let
you pass people.
Ben
I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
poor transitions.
Howard Kveck
"b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:
> I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> poor transitions.
Something similar could be said about one of our vendors at work: "They may not
know what they're doing but at least they're slow."
Nobody
>I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
>that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
>If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
>
>At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
>40km/h.
OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.
When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.
1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
for traffic).
After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.
I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
traffic, it ends up significantly less.
Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
was.
Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
dragging less lbs.
Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
faster two years ago. :(
Good going, though.
Bret
> BTW, I'm NOT saying that you can't fine-tune your fitness toward one kind of
> event versus another; you can, as I suggested here:http://marcofanelli.blogspot.com/2008/01/designing-bike-racer.html
This was an interesting read, but I tend to disagree on the question
of nature vs. nurture. Answer the question!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know that you can train a sprint much. What's your experience
with that?
It's also interesting that we tend to analyze racing with models from
our profession. For me it's:
Aerobic power = Battery
Endurance = Battery life
Anaerobic power = Capacitor
Recovery = RC time constant
It works for me, but not for anyone else I've met. Many don't even
recognize that there are that many variables.
Bret
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
> >I was someplace over 250. I was allergic to looking at the scale at
> >that point, so I don't really know. Probably 260 or so. I'm 205 now.
> >If I were some kind of pro, I'd be 195.
>
> >At our club time trial I averaged 28km/h when I was fat, now I am over
> >40km/h.
>
> OK, thanks. That's quite remarkable, depending on your age.
I'm 38 now.
> When I retired (I got out early), I started riding and was only
> getting about 22km/h, over about 10 miles.
I was probably in the same range, perhaps slower due to hills. The
28km/h was pedal to the metal for a 10km time trial.
>
> 1.5 years later I hit a PB of 29.6 km/h, over a non-hilly 10 mi.
> course, out and back. Not racing, just pushing it. (still had to stop
> for traffic).
Stopping makes a big difference, and there is also a big difference
between pushing it a bit, and going all out.
> After losing down to 185lbs, I don't really work on speed, but
> normally I ride a slightly hilly course at 25.7 km/h.
>
> I had no trouble hitting 40km/h, but could not sustain it. I haven't
> tried it lately, but doubt I'd be much faster than that, even with
> 40-50lbs lighter. Most of the time I see 19 and 20mph on my
> speedometer, but due to turning around, navigating and stopping for
> traffic, it ends up significantly less.
My rides do not involve stopping, so that helps keep the average up.
Maybe you also ride hillier routes now that you are lighter.
> Maybe it's motivation? Now that I'm at goal, I'm not 'driven' as I
> was.
Or what the goal is. Is the goal to be not fat, or to be fast (and
being not fat is just a way of helping accomplish that?). For me it
was 2 goals. Not being fat for general health reasons and day to day
pleasantness, and to be fast. And if the goal is to just ride around,
have fun, and stay in shape, who cares if you aren't faster?
> Maybe my progressive resistance in hill climbing has been reduced,
> dragging less lbs.
>
> Or maybe it's that I'm 5 years older. Dunno. But overall, I feel I was
> faster two years ago. :(
If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
potential physically.
But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
so, but you never know.
Joseph
Nobody
>If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
>is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
>potential physically.
Question is, how.
>But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
>so, but you never know.
>
>Joseph
Lots of riding alone. No group rides here.
Hct 45+ so no Iron def.
Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.
Nobody
wrote:
Interesting: From Wiki:
"In an RC circuit, the value of the time constant (in seconds) is
equal to the product of the circuit resistance (in ohms) and the
circuit capacitance (in farads), i.e. ? = R × C. It is the time
required to charge the capacitor, through the resistor, to 63.2 (? 63)
percent of full charge"
So what is 'resistance' to you? Motivation?
Circuit Capacitance=Anaerobic power?
Cool analogy.
Exponential decay:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_decay
:-)
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
> >If you want ot be faster, you can be faster. Age doesn't matter, as it
> >is safe to say probably nobody on this NG is anywhere near their full
> >potential physically.
>
> Question is, how.
Ah, the $100,000 question.
>
> >But maybe you have an iron deficiency or something. No reason to think
> >so, but you never know.
>
> >Joseph
>
> Lots of riding alone. No group rides here.
I think some group rides may have been instrumental in my early
improvements. I don't do as many now due to scheduling issues, so
maybe they would help still, dunno.
When I first pulled my bike out of mothballs a few years ago, I rode a
few weeks by myself to get used to the bike again, then committed to
doing 2 club rides per week. One road, one MTB. On these rides,
everyone was stronger than me. The road rides were ostensibly
described as structured training rides. Alternating weeks were spent
on echelon intervals, or hill repeats. The echelon rides were back and
forth on the same road, split up into semi-compatible groups. 8
minutes fast, 5 rest, x4 or 5 (or some such combination, I just did as
I was told) in a rotating echelon of about 8-9 riders. These were well
above my threshold, and often I would hit max HR (moments before
getting dropped), but the quick rotations allowed me ot hang on for a
while. If I got dropped, I would catch up while they were resting. The
hill repeats were up and down the same hill, so always someone to try
(in vain) to stay with.
The MTB rides were on varied terrain, and they ups and downs gave me
quite a workout. The ride leaders would regroup and wait for
stragglers every once in a while, so even if I got dropped, I could be
part of the next bout.
These 2 weekly rides were about 3 hours total, at very high intensity.
I would not have been able to ride at that intensity alone. When I
could, I would go for solo rides during the week at a moderate pace,
and sometimes on a club ride on Sundays that was about 3-4 hours.
Those rides were supposed to be moderate pace, but for me it was quite
hard.
2 seasons of that, and I had lost 30lbs and gotten much stronger. Then
I made a descison to drop most of the group rides as I was wasting too
much time driving there, and I also upped my weekly hours. I still do
some rides with a few buddies who are much faster than me, and that
helps a lot. But this descision wa sonly after I had improved
dramtically from those group rides, and I thought going on my own
would be better at that point.
I think intensity helps bump up the max capacity, and moderate solo
rides helps move your threshold up relative to the total capacity.
That is of course an oversimplification of a huge sort.
>
> Hct 45+ so no Iron def.
That's good.
>
> Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.
If you want to get faster, add some fast group rides where you have to
struggle to keep up.
Joseph
Bill C
wrote:
>
> Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
> lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
> the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
> losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
> I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
> but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
> that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
> Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
> any beer.
>
> Ben
> I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> poor transitions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ben I agree pretty generally. About the only weight training that I'd
really suggest for active cyclists who are doing a balanced training
routine would be stuff for the back, especially the lower back, and
not any real heavy stuff either. Specificity is really important, and
a good training plan, on the bike will do what you want. Lots of the
cross folks I know run, and do sprint intervals while running because
that's exactly what they are going to need to do for the season.
Cycling is a power to weight ration game so any "extra" muscle is
gonna be tough. It's easier to carry on a bike though than running. My
typical duathlon, and we're talking local crit equivalents here, went
first run - near last, ride - get back towards if not into top 10,
then second run - back to dfl or real close.
Getting 25 lbs off in 6 months is easy for someone out of shape. The
first 10lbs or so always goes like nothing, usually within a month.
It's a lot tougher for someone in shape, or close.
In my case you were absoulutlely right about the level of attention
that had to be paid to the diet. Everything was planned, weighed,
timed, logged, matched to the type, and level of activity, etc...Your
whole life , absolutely, revolved around training and diet, right down
to carrying your own food in a cooler to be sure you could get what
you needed to, when you needed it. Totally anal lifestyle. That was
pretty typical among serious gym rats, but during a mass/power cycle
we were actually trying to avoid anything evejn close to aerobic
activity. Everything was focused on anaerobic muscle building. Not
very forgiving in the diet area when the days second hardest activity
is a nap.
Bill C
Michael Press
<rcousine-8832E1.18342513052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <rubrum-57B8E3....@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
> Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> > Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> > A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
> > concentrating on portion size. I recommend
> > the no-guilt diet.
>
> I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
> control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.
I deliberately did not say `portion control'.
Control takes too much attention, attention best used otherwise.
The idea is to take a moment and look at the portion you intend to eat.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
Thanks. What is `slightly hilly'?
For me a typical two hour ride has 2 3 km climbs,
and the remainder is all rolling stuff.
--
Michael Press
Nobody
>I think intensity helps bump up the max capacity, and moderate solo
>rides helps move your threshold up relative to the total capacity.
>That is of course an oversimplification of a huge sort.
>
>>
>> Hct 45+ so no Iron def.
>
>That's good.
>
>>
>> Thanks for the nice comments. Appreciated.
>
>If you want to get faster, add some fast group rides where you have to
>struggle to keep up.
When I see other riders, I arrange to give them about 20-30 seconds
headstart, then chase them down. They don't know they're playing; I'm
careful not to interfere.
On one hill, last one before home, I usually get 12mph. A couple
months ago, noticed someone up ahead on the approach and came up
beside them, said hi, offered to pull up the hill, they could draft.
Well, I got 2/3 up the hill and took a quick look down. 16.5mph. It
was very easy. No idea how, but one thing I've been working on is to
accelerate on the approach, not approach timidly, conserving energy.
Prior to that I'd 'attack the hill', which I think, was starting the
acceleration too late. Not sure if others do this; seems to work for
me.
Like to do some fast(er) group rides, but no opportunity.
Other thing I do is pick a course just over my head, ability-wise,
then ride that. Generally I do it on a week where I'm able to peak.
Thanks again for the detailed reply. Good riding to you.
joseph.sa...@gmail.com
> Like to do some fast(er) group rides, but no opportunity.
Because of scheduling issues? It doesn't have to be a huge group. Even
just one or two others is enough as long as they are faster than you.
Through a local or semi-local (as in my case) club there should be
folks to tag along with every once in a while. It works with folks fo
the same level as you too, but not quite as well, IMO.
> Other thing I do is pick a course just over my head, ability-wise,
> then ride that. Generally I do it on a week where I'm able to peak.
>
That is partly why I got rid of my speedometer. I was pacing myself
instead of just riding. Now I don't worry about portioning my effort,
and I think that helps keep the effort level up.
> Thanks again for the detailed reply. Good riding to you.
Thanks, will do!
Joseph
Bill C
> On May 14, 11:40 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Basically I think ride lots, eat reasonable amounts,
> > lay off the junk calories and eating-while-bored, and
> > the fat/muscle ratio will take care of itself. I do think
> > losing 25 lb in what, <6 months? is a little ambitious.
> > I mean, it's doable, especially if you're out of shape,
> > but it requires you to devote attention to weight loss
> > that you could be spending on thinking about riding.
> > Plus you're cranky from limiting diet and not having
> > any beer.
>
> > Ben
> > I balanced my lack of surging ability with equally
> > poor transitions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ben I agree pretty generally. About the only weight training that I'd
> really suggest for active cyclists who are doing a balanced training
> routine would be stuff for the back, especially the lower back, and
>
> - Show quoted text -
Meant to include, and abs. I'm totally in favor of "core" training for
anyone.
Bill C
Bret
> On Wed, 14 May 2008 22:34:45 -0700 (PDT), Bret <bret.w...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On May 13, 4:50 pm, "Off The Back" <marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >I don't know that you can train a sprint much. What's your experience
> >with that?
>
> >It's also interesting that we tend to analyze racing with models from
> >our profession. For me it's:
>
> >Aerobic power = Battery
> >Endurance = Battery life
> >Anaerobic power = Capacitor
> >Recovery = RC time constant
>
> >It works for me, but not for anyone else I've met. Many don't even
> >recognize that there are that many variables.
>
> >Bret
>
> Interesting: From Wiki:
> "In an RC circuit, the value of the time constant (in seconds) is
> equal to the product of the circuit resistance (in ohms) and the
> circuit capacitance (in farads), i.e. ? = R × C. It is the time
> required to charge the capacitor, through the resistor, to 63.2 (? 63)
> percent of full charge"
>
> So what is 'resistance' to you? Motivation?
> Circuit Capacitance=Anaerobic power?
>
> Cool analogy.
Maybe a sloppy analogy. The RC charging cycle is non-linear because
the charging current drops as the capacitor charges due to the
transition in voltage drops. This is like trying to pump up a tire to
100 psi with a compressor whose tank is at 100 psi. Initial air flow
will be high but will fall to zero as you approach 100 psi.
I'm not sure that muscle recover has a similar mechanism. Here's what
I found about muscle recovery from anaerobic exercise which seems to
involve two separate phases:
"It is suggested that the initial fast phase of CP resynthesis is
limited by the availability of oxygen whereas the subsequent slow
phase is limited by the hydrogen ion transport out from the muscle."
The oxygen dependent phase is presumably linear since oxygen is
constantly supplied. I don't know about the hydrogen ion dependent
phase. I'll stop pretending I know anything about biology here.
Resynthesis of creatine phosphate in human muscle after exercise :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/43580
Bret
SLAVE of THE STATE
> SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 13, 9:09 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
>
> > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
>
> > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> > scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
>
> That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.
Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
bad. Values are subjective.
> Think I'll stick to wine,
I thought you wanted to lose weight?
A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
hurry.
Ryan Cousineau
<48dcef69-a454-4649...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:55 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <0af18a9d-6235-4223-8f2e-65d207d0a...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > SLAVE of THE STATE <gwh...@ti.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On May 13, 9:09 pm, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > In article <r2nk24d49qiedjpaibft00ub3arbo0s...@4ax.com>,
> > > > > Also, you can't gorge on weekends, because you blow the week in
> > > > > totals. What's hard is hunger tends to go up and
> > > > > consistency/motivation comes and goes.
> >
> > > > I have some idea of the triggers of overconsumption, and a big one is
> > > > boredom. I just try to keep busy to not eat.
> >
> > > I had thought you could come down to Sonoma Co to do a wine tour. But
> > > scratch that. It is high time for a meth lab tour of Humbolt Co.
> >
> > That really is The Shit That Will Kill You.
>
> Death does cause weight loss. It is 50-50 whether that is good or
> bad. Values are subjective.
>
> > Think I'll stick to wine,
>
> I thought you wanted to lose weight?
>
> A regimen of crystal meth and lucky strikes will fix you up in a
> hurry.
Yeah, well, I guess I just don't want it that badly.
I'll never make the Masters Fattie ProTour at this rate,
Paul G.
I can't vouch for the lucky strikes, but meth has been tried.... he
said, sipping his glass of wine.
http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/simpson_collapse.jpg
http://www.unc.edu/~hymas/images/tom_simpson.jpg
-Paul
Nobody
wrote:
>On May 15, 4:44 am, Nobody<nob...@nowhere.net> wrote:
Well, there something to be said for 'different' ways of looking at
things. I'm fond of comparing the human body to mechanical systems.
Blood vessels with pneumatics, metabolism with internal combustion,
heart with pump, muscles with wheels, or gears or pulleys, or levers.
As I recall it's ATP going to ADP in the presence of NAD/NADH and
Creatine Phosphate, releasing energy and reforming the ATP.
Here's a more current article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7714837
Recovery of power output and muscle metabolites following 30 s of
maximal sprint cycling in man. Something about recovery being slower
than anticipated.
"These data suggest that (phosphocreatine) PCr resynthesis after 30 s
of maximal sprint exercise is slower than previously observed after
dynamic exercise of longer duration, and PCr resynthesis is important
for the recovery of power during repeated bouts of sprint exercise."
Well, duh. You challenge those systems and acclimate them to produce
faster recovery maybe.
Tom Kunich
news:gsrp24dnk6340okbd...@4ax.com...
>
> "These data suggest that (phosphocreatine) PCr resynthesis after 30 s
> of maximal sprint exercise is slower than previously observed after
> dynamic exercise of longer duration, and PCr resynthesis is important
> for the recovery of power during repeated bouts of sprint exercise."
>
> Well, duh. You challenge those systems and acclimate them to produce
> faster recovery maybe.
Well, that sounds good but there are systems all over the body that do not
build up. For instance, your lungs do not change their transfer
characteristics with exercise.
Kyle Legate
> On May 14, 12:38 am, Kyle Legate <lega...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Bill C wrote:
>>> the multiple small meals and snacks, along with several aerobic
>>> activity sessions are the key to keeping the metabolism elevated.
>> You forgot to mention the ECA stack.
>
> Never bothered with that stuff. I watched people fork out big dollars
> for the stuff because it was in the magazines and get nowhere.
>
If you're forking out big dollars for ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin,
you need to change pharmacies.
Howard Kveck
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <rcousine-8832E1.18342513052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <rubrum-57B8E3....@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>,
> > Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <rcousine-BCAB86.20071312052008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> > > Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > A very gradual weight loss program may be in order,
> > > concentrating on portion size. I recommend
> > > the no-guilt diet.
> >
> > I have only two weaknesses that hamstring my diet efforts: portion
> > control and impulse control. Also, I like beer, wine, and hard liquor.
>
> I deliberately did not say `portion control'.
> Control takes too much attention, attention best used otherwise.
> The idea is to take a moment and look at the portion you intend to eat.
The portion you intend to eat, the portion you need to eat and the portion you
want to eat may all be different. Sometimes, one's will power ("the portion you need
to eat") is poor and the food is good. You can imagine the result there.
Bill C
But it came in a fancy bottle with a fancy label, and had a full page
in Musclemag so it must be worth it!! Not to generalize, but I'm gonna
anyway, the average cyclist is a whole lot smarter/better educated
than 90% of the gym rats out there. Supplements are the gym rats
version of superlight un-obtainium. They lose all sense in the face of
hype, and have to have them.
Bill C
Bill C
>
>
> But it came in a fancy bottle with a fancy label, and had a full page
> in Musclemag so it must be worth it!! Not to generalize, but I'm gonna
> anyway, the average cyclist is a whole lot smarter/better educated
> than 90% of the gym rats out there. Supplements are the gym rats
> version of superlight un-obtainium. They lose all sense in the face of
> hype, and have to have them.
>
> Bill C
Prices on this stuff seem to have stayed the same or gone down.
Google is being really cranky this morning but if you go to:
supplementwarehouse.com
and search for "ripped fuel", or go to the "Fat Burners" category you
get a quick picture.
I'm pretty amazed that these prices seem to be directly comparable to
what they were 15/20 years ago.
Bill C
Michael Press
Howard Kveck <YOURh...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
There are a million problems. I recommend taking it easy.
Put food on the plate. Sit down. Look at it. Now shut up and eat.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<2b734850-7ff8-4e59...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Bret <bret...@gmail.com> wrote:
In the cell energy delivered for use comes from ATP
hydrolysis. This produces H+. H+ diffuse into the
mitochondria and is metabolized. When the mitochondria
are working at capacity excess H+ must be buffered then
physically removed from the cell.
A good survey article is
Biochemistry of exercise-induced metabolic acidosis.
Robert A. Robergs, Farzenah Ghiasvand, and Daryl Parker
<http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/287/3/R502>
--
Michael Press
Bret
If I read this correctly the CP resynthesis should speed up over time
during recovery as the H+ created during exercise is cleared? If so,
then there is no negative feedback to CP resynthesis and my analogy is
bad.
Bret
Howard Kveck
Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
That's pretty much the standard procedure here, although I add "smell it" to the
"look at it" section.
"I got 99 problems and a meal ain't one."
Or
I like food, food tastes good!
I like food, food tastes good!
Juicy burgers, greasy fries
Turkey legs and raw fish eyes!
Teenage girls, with ketchup too!
Get outta my way or I'll eat you!
I like food, food tastes good!
I like food, food tastes good!
Let's turn dining back into eating!!!
Donald Munro
> Teenage girls, with ketchup too!
> Get outta my way or I'll eat you!
Ketchup ? I don't need no stinkin ketchup.
Tom Boonen
Michael Press
<2f52c1d3-bf9b-45f6...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
Bret <bret...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If I read this correctly the CP resynthesis should speed up over time
> during recovery as the H+ created during exercise is cleared? If so,
> then there is no negative feedback to CP resynthesis and my analogy is
> bad.
I do not know. The authors do not say much about
creatine phosphate.
"The cellular store of creatine phosphate
provides a near immediate metabolic system to produce ATP
during the onset and initial seconds of muscle contraction.
Creatine phosphate is also believed to be important for the
general transfer of phosphate groups from the mitochondria
throughout the cytosol, and as such could also be important for
all metabolic states of skeletal muscle cells. "
"On the basis of the biochemistry presented thus far, Fig. 14
indicates the shift in proton þux as exercise progresses from
steady state to nonsteady state. Central to the cellular proton
balance is the hydrolysis of ATP required to fuel cell work,
such as muscle contraction. This is clearly the main source of
proton release in contracting skeletal muscle, and when the
NADH and protons from cytosolic reactions are produced at
rates in excess of mitochondrial capacity, cytosolic redox is
aided by lactate production, which essentially accounts for the
proton release from glycolysis. However, as the rate of ATP
hydrolysis exceeds all other reactions, the rate of proton release
eventually exceeds metabolic proton buffering by lactate pro-
duction and creatine phosphate breakdown, as well as proton
buffering by Pi, amino acids, and proteins. In addition, once the
maximal capacity of lactate/proton removal from the cell is
exceeded, proton accumulation (decreasing cellular pH) re-
sults. Also, note that Fig. 14B clearly shows that the origin of
the accumulating intramuscular Pi is ATP hydrolysis, not
creatine phosphate breakdown, which is still mistakenly inter-
preted by many physiologists (59)."
The abstract of the Sahlin K, Harris RC, Hultman E
article suggests that mitochondria respiration is
responsible for CP re-synthesis.
I gather that excess H+ from anaerobic effort is only cleared
by transport out of the cell.
--
Michael Press