Jim Ochowicz
MagillaGorilla
France given that he helped kill one of his own cyclists by making sure
Fabio Casartelli didn't wear a helmet on the descent down the Col de
Portet d'Aspet in the '95 Tour? After all, Casartelli died because Och
wasn't doing his job in terms of safety since they had helmets back then
that were proven to provide significant protection against head
injuries. Casartelli died of a head injury, according to the doctors.
Och is also the same guy who as director sportif for Team USA allowed 3
Telekoms (blockhead, Ullbitch, and Klueless) to ride up the road during
the Sydney Olympics because the battery in his radio died. I mean, who
could have expected a guy who was sponsored by Motorola to realize that
batteries in crucial electronic devices sometimes go bad and to bring
along some extras.
But then again, Ochowicz is the same guy who fired Bisceglia after he
was outed by Gerard for stealing $100,000.
So as you can see, "Och" as he's known, is well qualified to run a pro
cycling team.
Thanks,
Magilla
DirtRoadie
> Will Jim Ochowicz ...
> Thanks,
> Magilla
You're welcome.
But you are behind the curve, this has already been done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMnekeLTUrw&feature=fvw
DR
coterock
> Will Jim Ochowicz even be allowed to ride in the caravan of the Tour de
> France given that he helped kill one of his own cyclists by making sure
> Fabio Casartelli didn't wear a helmet
> Och is also the same guy who as director sportif for Team USA allowed 3
> Telekoms (blockhead, Ullbitch, and Klueless) to ride up the road during
> the Sydney Olympics > But then again, Ochowicz is the same guy who fired Bisceglia after he
> was outed by Gerard for stealing $100,000.
>
> Magilla
TROLL, simple troll. Och has done more for cycling in the U.S. than
you have in your dreams. Now beat it, blow.
Bob Schwartz
Could you do me a favor? Could you find out what the settlement with
Gerard cost USAC. Remember, that was 100% Och's doing.
No, of course you can't. One of the items of negotiation was how much
it was going to cost to keep everyone's mouth shut. Never mind.
Here's one that you can look up. How has USAC's financial performance
been since the 1990s reorg, and what has Och's role in that been? Do
you remember far enough back to recall when USAC was fiscally stable?
It's a shame that he couldn't replace Motorola as a sponsor. He was
much less dangerous in the race caravan.
Bob Schwartz
MagillaGorilla
Jim Ochowicz is a corrupt piece of garbage and most people I talk to in the sport say the same
thing: He's an embarrassment to the sport. Let's take an objective look at what "Och" - as he's
known to his sycophants - has done for the sport of cycling:
1.) He ran a pro cycling team and failed to require them to wear helmets, resulting in the death
of Fabio Casartelli, an Olympic gold medalist. It is without question that Och had the
authority to require riders on his team to wear helmets for their safety, and he failed to do
so. Although in fairness to Och, who wudda thunk that cyclists could fall off their bike in a
2,300 mile race with technical descents in the rain? Perhaps Och should get a copy of Saul
Raisin's book about what happens when a watermelon is dropped from 7 feet above the asphalt.
2.) Jim Ochowicz didn't have the talent as a director sportif/manager to win the Tour de France
with either 7-Eleven or Motorola. So now, he's trying to buy his way into the Tour Hall of Fame
with a used car from Australia with bald tires (Cadel "Don't Touch Me" Evans), who everybody
knows is yesterday's news when it comes to being a GC contender in Grand Tours. The way a
real talented director/manager would have done it is to build a winner through leadership and
skills by taking a nobody rider and turning him into a champion, the way Bruyneel did with Lance
Armstrong. Had Lance ridden for Och from 1999-2005, he never would have won any Tours. So now
Och is trying to 'buy' a used Apollo rocket and claim he was involved in the space program in
order to claim that elusive lunar landing. With Lance and Bruyneel, at least there was a
Rocky-like Cinderella story behind it. Nobody expected Lance to win the '99 Tour.
But this is the guy Och is trying to convince the world is going to win the Tour de France:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikzgWE3t0A
3.) Och failed to realize that batteries in a race radio might get depleted and to bring some
extras (who wudda thunk batteries go dead? Certainly not the manager of the Motorola team). As
a result of this, the entire USA men's road team failed to realize that 3 Telekoms went up the
road and swept the podium in an Olympics road race (2000 Sydney Games). This is a mistake that
one would only expect from an autistic child on Ritalin. But in 2000, Och was that child.
4.) Och fired USA Cycling CEO Gerard Bisceglia after Bisceglia asked Och to stop using his
position in USA Cycling to enrich himself by making 6-figure backroom deals that would likely
only have occurred due to his position on USA Cycling. I can't think of any reason why BMC
would pay Och $100,000 to "help" arrange a sponsorship. When Bisceglia told him to stop doing
that, Och - being the corrupt pussy he is - retaliated against Bisceglia and got his lover boy
Steve Johnson and the rest of the zombies to fire him. Bisceglia sued and it was settled out of
court. Och is perfectly content to make the membership pay the jacked up insurance premium or
costs of that settlement and litigation fees due to his own personal greed. After all, Och is a
'grassroots guy' who wants to do everything in his power to make sure racing license fees don't
soar over $80 because of greed, corruption and waste at USA Cycling....oops!
5.) Och had a key leadership role on the Olympic selection committee at USA Cycling when it
completely botched the Sue Haywood matter, resulting in a $380,000 judgment against USA
Cycling. Och once again sticks the membership with paying for that settlement and the legal
fees associated with that lawsuit. Grand total: over $450,000. Not being content to have
helped kill an Olympic gold medalist back in '95, Och helped ruin the Olympic dream of Sue
Haywood in 2004.
6.) Och, Steve Johnson, and the rest of the Wiesel groupies lost another $200,000+ judgment to
Les Earnest for rigging an election and fastracking some legislation back in like 2000. Once
again, Och is perfectly content to force the membership to pay for his corruption and
incompetence, just like Fabio Casartelli had to pay with his life and Sue Haywood had to pay
with her Olympic dream ...all because of Och's poor judgment.
7.) As if the death of an Olympic gold medalist Fabio Casartelli in '95 and ruined dream of
mountain biker Sue Haywood in 2004 wasn't enough, Och also supervised USA Cycling and allowed
for the Becky Quinn sexual discrimination lawsuit case to materialize in 2008. In that case,
Och didn't think there was anything wrong with allowing the husband (Andy Sparks) of an elite
track cyclist (Sarah Hammer) to be the coach of the Team USA track program, which was clearly an
egregious conflict of interest that was a breeding ground for potential lawsuits. There is no
other Olympic sports federation that allows the husband of a competitor to be a coach of Team
USA, which essentially reduced the Olympic selection criteria for the women's track program to
be that women had to give a blowjob to the coach in order to make the Olympic team. And those
women track riders who didn't give a blowjob to the coach - such as Becky Quinn - had to endure
a season of subtle harassment and sabotage to look forward to that cost them their Olympic
dream.
So there's Jim "Och" Ochowicz for you - a nice guy doing nice things. Always looking out for
the little guy, always doing things the fair and honest way.
I'm not sure what else Och did wrong, but once I finish eating my delicious bagel with cream
cheese, I can probably churn out another Och manifesto.
Thanks,
Magilla
z
I'll bet you're wrong about that. Wanna challenge me?
Donald Munro
> 3.) Och failed to realize that batteries in a race radio might get depleted and to bring some
> extras (who wudda thunk batteries go dead? Certainly not the manager of the Motorola team). As
> a result of this, the entire USA men's road team failed to realize that 3 Telekoms went up the
> road and swept the podium in an Olympics road race (2000 Sydney Games). This is a mistake that
> one would only expect from an autistic child on Ritalin. But in 2000, Och was that child.
Perhaps he used RadioShack batteries.
MagillaGorilla
I accept your challenge you to a duel, Zorro.
Magilla
Ryan Cousineau
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
Well, it's an attractive troll, I'll give you that, and it has the ring
of some truth, but being mad at Ochowicz because of Casartelli's fatal
accident is harming your case by being quite absurd.
Both before and since Fabio, fatal pro cycling accidents have been rare.
If anything, they were rarer in the old days, a few doozys in motorpaced
racing notwithstanding. The case that Fabio would have lived if he'd
been wearing a helmet is speculative, as it must be.
Moreover, the responsibility for wearing a helmet or not ultimately had
to lie with Fabio, who was after all a grown-up, and a human (not an
ape, or some other sort of carnival monster).
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Michael Press
<rcousine-4BBDA7.17312703112009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcou...@gmail.com> wrote:
Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
examination of Casartelli?
<http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2365454>
March 12, 2006
WILMINGTON, N.Y. -- Swedish snowboarder Jonatan
Johansson died Sunday after falling during a
snowboardcross run down Whiteface Mountain in the
Adirondacks, according to officials.
The 26-year-old Torino Olympics competitor made a bad
landing on one of his jumps at about 9:20 a.m. during
training for an International Ski Federation World Cup
competition, according to the U.S. Ski and Snowboarding
Association.
A state police report said Johansson tried to correct
himself but landed hard. An autopsy found the cause of
death to be multiple internal injuries.
Officials said Johansson landed within the course
boundaries and was wearing a helmet. Olympic Regional
Development Authority spokesman Sandy Caligiore said he
did not hit a tree, a pole or any other obstacle. The
course where Johansson crashed, the Boreen Trail, has
special snowboardcross features constructed for
competition.
--
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla
I never sad I was mad at Ochowicz. I simply pointed out that Casartelli's death
was caused by Jim Ochowicz's failure to require cyclists on his team to wear
helmets when the safety data indicated that helmets save lives. Casartelli died
of a head injury in a bicyle race and was not wearing a helmet. What about that
don't you understand?
>
>
> Both before and since Fabio, fatal pro cycling accidents have been rare.
What does that have to do with Ochowicz being at fault for Casartelli's death?
Second, your statement that deaths have been "rare" are not true and you provide
no statistics to back that up. You also conveniently fail to mention serious head
injuries such as what happened to Saul Raisin (who likely would have died had he
not been wearing a helmet). And even if you could prove that fatal head injuries
are rare in pro cycling, it would likley be due to the helmet rule.
However, Ochowicz did not have to have a helmet rule in place in order to require
the riders on his team to wear a helmet. The decision that the riders on his team
would not be required to wear a helmet was one that was made strictly by Jim
Ochowicz, who managed the Motorola Cycling team that Fabio Casartelli road for
when he died of his head injury in the 1995 Tour de France.
>
> If anything, they were rarer in the old days, a few doozys in motorpaced
> racing notwithstanding. The case that Fabio would have lived if he'd
> been wearing a helmet is speculative, as it must be.
The case for Dale Earnhardt not dying had he worn a full-face helmet and HANS
device is also speculative, but not seriously questioned by industry and medical
experts. In fact, NASCAR mandated it after Earnhardt's death, but most team
owners already required their drivers to wear both. Earnhardt was like the only
guy who didn't.
>
>
> Moreover, the responsibility for wearing a helmet or not ultimately had
> to lie with Fabio, who was after all a grown-up, and a human (not an
> ape, or some other sort of carnival monster).
Generally speaking, safety devices worn at the workplace and professional sports
are considered the sole responibility of the employer/owner and not to employees
(despite them being "grown ups" as you say) who might not have the necessary
experience to understand the significance of head injuries or other risks.
Ochowicz had plenty of experience with the safety provided by bicycle helmets.
According to you, the decision to wear a football helmet in the NFL should be made
by each individual player because they are "grown ups." According to your logic,
the decision for a coal miner to wear supplemental oxygen, a helmet, or to test
for carbon monoxide in coal mines should be left up to the individual coal miner
because they are "grown ups." According to you, the decision to bring a
floatation device aboard an airplane or cruise ship should be made by each "grown
up" passenger....the decision to wear safety glasses in chemistry labs should be
made by each indivudal "grown up" researcher...
Your logic is so fucked up that it defies credibility. This is a documented
monkey beating and you are banned from posting in here for 48 hours.
>
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Yeah, so?
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Yeah, so?
Magilla
Bob Schwartz
> Your logic is so fucked up that it defies credibility. This is a documented
> monkey beating and you are banned from posting in here for 48 hours.
Dumbass,
For a helmet thread? No, sorry. Really, there is no shortage of
better material.
Bob Schwartz
MagillaGorilla
Yeah, so?
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Yeah, so?
Magilla
DirtRoadie
> Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
> examination of Casartelli?
No, but this gives a bit of info:
http://www.bhsi.org/timesart.htm
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Yeah, so?
So we do not know what Casartelli died of,
and we know that helmeted athletes die in
falls. Johansson landed on a snow coated
course, did not strike anything else, wore
a helmet, and died of injuries sustained
in the fall.
So, your rant about Ochowicz, Casartelli,
and helmets is not proven.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
Thanks.
An autopsy was not performed.
--
Michael Press
z
I don't blame you.
Somehow I deleted the sentence I intended to challenge you on: "There is
no other Olympic sports federation that allows the husband of a
competitor to be a coach of Team USA,..."
Still want to have a go?
MagillaGorilla
You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
Thanks,
Magilla
Susan Walker
> You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
> case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
> that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
> examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
> classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
I thought he went face-first into a corner of one of those low stone
blocks on the side of the road.
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 3, 11:49Â pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
> > > > examination of Casartelli?
> > >
> > > No, but this gives a bit of info:
> > > http://www.bhsi.org/timesart.htm
> >
> > Thanks.
> > An autopsy was not performed.
>
> You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
> case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
> that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
> examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
> classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
A forensic examination would give information
on the effect of a helmet.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> You also conveniently fail to mention serious head
> injuries such as what happened to Saul Raisin (who likely would have died had he
> not been wearing a helmet).
You do not know that.
--
Michael Press
Donald Munro
> So we do not know what Casartelli died of,
> and we know that helmeted athletes die in
> falls. Johansson landed on a snow coated
> course, did not strike anything else, wore
> a helmet, and died of injuries sustained
> in the fall.
>
> So, your rant about Ochowicz, Casartelli,
> and helmets is not proven.
Its not a rant, its just the oldest troll in the rbr book.
MagillaGorilla
You wanna challenge a Highlander to a duel? Hone the blade on your sword, Zorro. You're gonna feel the
steel of 15th century Katana splitting you from neck to navel.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Unless he died of a broken neck and not a head injury, it is not credible
to surmise that a helmet would not have done any good. Although I'm sure
"Och" has convinced himself otherwise, since that's the type of guy he is.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Not true...we know Casartelli died of a head injury based on the exam conducted in the
ER. And we also know that Ochowicz had the authority over his team to require his
riders to wear a helmet.
Don't worry though, Och sleeps well at night because this is the same guy who helped
screw Sue Haywood out of her Olympic dream, screwed the entire Team USA out of a medal
by failing to bring along some extra batteries for his radio, and then screwed Becky
Quinn out of her Olympic dream through sexual politics.
Och is one of the most prolific Olympic dreams wrecker in the country. In fact, I'm
surprised the IOC hasn't given him an award for it.
Magilla
z
Easy for you to say that. You've lost all your cred.
Tom Kunich
news:4af27d8d$0$83248$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Reportedly that's exactly what happened. Of course the fool who claims that
a helmet would have saved his life doesn't seem to understand that a helmet
has almost no protection capacity. What's more, because the jackasses are
claiming miracles for helmets, people are taking many more chances then they
did before these "safety" helmets.
Donald Munro
> You wanna challenge a Highlander to a duel? Hone the blade on your sword, Zorro. You're gonna feel the
> steel of 15th century Katana splitting you from neck to navel.
They don't have Katana swords in the highlands but I'm sure a gorilla in
a kilt would give the lowlanders and lowlife from Newcastle something to
insult them about.
z
Marco Polo introduced them to the Katana on his way around the Northwest
Passage
RobertH
> Och is one of the most prolific Olympic dreams wrecker in the country. In fact, I'm
> surprised the IOC hasn't given him an award for it.
I'm surprised you didn't give him an award for it, I seem to recall
you ranting on about the idiocy of olympic dreams.
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article <4AF23CBE...@sandiegozoo.com>,
> > MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Press wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > > <f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Nov 3, 11:49Ã≠ pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
> > > > > > examination of Casartelli?
> > > > >
> > > > > No, but this gives a bit of info:
> > > > > http://www.bhsi.org/timesart.htm
> > > >
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > An autopsy was not performed.
> > >
> > > You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
> > > case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
> > > that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
> > > examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
> > > classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
> >
> > A forensic examination would give information
> > on the effect of a helmet.
>
> Unless he died of a broken neck and not a head injury,
Such a finding would give information on the effect of a helmet
in that crash.
> it is not credible
> to surmise that a helmet would not have done any good.
It is if the injuries are documented.
--
Michael Press
Tom Kunich
news:rubrum-F65876....@news.albasani.net...
What the hell are you guys talking about? When he fell he was looking
forward and the corner of the cement block struck him directly in the front
of his face slightly off center from his nose. His facial area was broken
and shoved back into his brain which essentially killed him almost
immediately.
No helmet other than a full face helmet would have changed that injury. And
it is probable that had he a full face helmet his neck would have been
broken killing him every bit as fast.
MagillaGorilla
Let me get this straight. First you challenege me. I accept. Then your response is to not accept the
challenge and say I've "lost all cred" but without stating why.
You are a fucking space cadet, Zorro.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Well, the helmets do help a lot. They are designed to absorb energy. I'm sure
they've saved people's lives. I actually went down hard and fast and my head
hit the pavement. The helmet was compressed where my head hit the ground. I'm
pretty sure I would have been a Saul Raisin melon head had I not been wearing
my Puerto Rican cooler.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Dude,
He died of a head injury, not a broken neck.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Not so fast. Do this experiment...
1.) Find a wood post somewhere in your house. Slowly move your face towards
the post. It will obviously hit. At higher speeds, this impact could be
fatal.
2.) Now put a helmet on and try to push your face into the post. That sound
you hear before your face hits anything is the sound of your helmet hitting
the post first and absorbing the energy.
Without knowing EXACTLY how he hit the post, it impossible to conclude that a
helmet would not have helped.
According to this article below (which seems pretty credible to me) a helmet
would have indeed saved Casartelli's life:
http://www.helmets.org/timesart.htm
Thanks,
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
I would never interfere with someone's Olympic dream like Och did. Making fun of them
is completely benign. What Och did is ruin their Olympic dreams. He's a very bad man.
Jim Ochowicz is an Olympic Dream Wrecker and helped kill the gold medalist of the 1992
Barcelona Games.
Magilla
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Dude,
>
> He died of a head injury, not a broken neck.
We do not know what he died of other than
crashing into a concrete block.
--
Michael Press
z
When did I not accept your challenge?
Why no cred? Because I've used you to wipe my ass more times than I care
to remember.
z
Hmm, he was wearing a helmet earlier in the stage. He was a 24 year old
adult. Why should he not have been responsible for his own decisions?
MAGILLA THE NANNY STATE LOVER!!!!
z
MagillaGorilla
There's only 2 things that would cause one to go unconscious in 5 seconds...a broken neck or a
head injury. A helmet could have prevented both. But you are correct that we do not know what
was the COD. However, the physician who examined him said it was a massive head injury. That's
what's on the death certificate.
And Jim Ochowicz had the authority to require Fabio to wear a helmet, but he chose not to.
Thanks,
Magilla
Howard Kveck
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Don't worry though, Och sleeps well at night because this is the same guy who
> helped screw Sue Haywood out of her Olympic dream, screwed the entire Team
> USA out of a medal by failing to bring along some extra batteries for his radio,
> and then screwed Becky Quinn out of her Olympic dream through sexual politics.
>
> Och is one of the most prolific Olympic dreams wrecker in the country. In
> fact, I'm surprised the IOC hasn't given him an award for it.
I seem to recall you spending much time in the recent past slamming the Olys as a
worthless event. Now you're riled up over someone spoiling a couple of riders'
"Olympic dreams"? What gives?
--
tanx,
Howard
Caught playing safe
It's a bored game
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
bjwe...@gmail.com
wrote:
> MagillaGorilla wrote:
> > Your logic is so fucked up that it defies credibility. This is a documented
> > monkey beating and you are banned from posting in here for 48 hours.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> For a helmet thread? No, sorry. Really, there is no shortage of
> better material.
>
> Bob Schwartz
The monkey is a secret agent trying to bring
Jim Ochowicz's critics into disrepute, by slagging
Och over the most irrelevant possible criticism
(Casartelli and helmets), thereby obscuring all the
legitimate criticisms.
Seriously for a moment, I never understood USCF
politics and who was or was not a slimeball, so
when people (Lafferty, Les, you) would go off about
this or that leadership faction, I never knew how
seriously to take the allegations of evil. But when
Jim Ocho Cinco forced out Gerard Bisceglia, it
became clear that the enterprise was in fact
wholly corrupted.
Ben
Ryan Cousineau
> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> > DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 3, 11:49 pm, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
> > > > examination of Casartelli?
> > >
> > > No, but this gives a bit of info:
> > > http://www.bhsi.org/timesart.htm
> >
> > Thanks.
> > An autopsy was not performed.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
> case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
> that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
> examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
> classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Magilla
ORLY?
I have a friend, who, besides his prediliction for Mapei gear, was also
wearing a helmet during his fatal bike crash. He went face-first into
the ashphalt, and never regained consciousness.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
MagillaGorilla
You told me you were going to name a husband and wife coach/athlete on the Olympics to prove my allegation
wrong about USA Cycling doing that with Andy Sparks and Sarah Hammer (which resulted in the Becky Quinn
case). You "dared" me to accept that you could do that. So I accepted your challenge and told you to name
that example.
You then told me you're not going to do that and said I have no credibility. You make no sense.
So where's your evidence that another Olympic sport allows for the husband of one of its athletes to coach
that athlete on the Olympic team. I'm waiting....in fact we're all waiting.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
For the same reason a motorcyclist is not allowed to remove their helmet as well
as the following other "adults":
1.) NFL football players
2.) NASCAR drivers
3.) Coal Miners
4.) All construction workers throughout the world (you know little groups of
people like that).
5.) Motorcycle racers
6.) Fighter pilots
7.) Army soldiers
In none of those examples is the athlete or employee or person even permitted to
make their own decision regarding helmet use. Ever hear of something called
"safety standards" or "safety rules" or "safety laws?"
Sounds like you need to watch an OSHA video.
You also sound like you never worked a job in your life because I can't think of a
single job where the employer doesn't require the employee to wear some kind of
safety device or have knowledge of some kind of workplace safety feature.
Do me a favor though....go get a job in construction and on your first day when
the foreman is giving the morning strategy plan, yell out, "Hey, I'm not gonna
wear my helmet today because I'm a 24 year old adult and I'm old enough to make my
own decisions."
And then come back in here and tell us how much you are collecting in
unemployment.
Once you do that, go enlist in the Marines and tell your drill instructor during
roll call: "Sir, this Marine is not going to wear his helmet because he's old
enough to make the decision himself, sir." And then come back in here and tell
us what happened.
Jim "Olympic Wrecker" Ochowicz is the only 'construction foreman' in the world who
was completely oblivious to basic safety standards in 1995. And as a result of
his total disregard for basic safety equipment available in cycling at the time,
Fabio Casartelli died of a head injury. Bicycling helmets had been around for
almost 10 years at the point where Casartelli died.
Thanks,
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
So? What's your fucking point? Are you saying helmets do not provide
protection against head injuries?
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Yes, because those cyclists whose Olympic dreams were ruined did not share my opinion
about the Games. They are certainly entited to do that and I am simply respecting
them.
Unfortuntealy, Och didn't do the same...
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
I'm not trying to bring Och or his critics into disrepute. I'm simply citing the
facts surrounding Jim Ochowicz tenure during certain points in his life. Whether
or not those facts call Och's character into disrepute is something I leave up to
others to decide.
Thanks,
Magilla
Bob Schwartz
> I'm waiting....in fact we're all waiting.
Dumbass,
Like hell we are.
Could you please refresh yourself on Usenet Trolling 101?
There are times when you are very good at it. This isn't
one of them.
Bob Schwartz
RicodJour
> z wrote:
>
> > Hmm, he was wearing a helmet earlier in the stage. He was a 24 year old
> > adult. Why should he not have been responsible for his own decisions?
>
> > MAGILLA THE NANNY STATE LOVER!!!!
>
>
> as the following other "adults":
Sure they are. It would be stupid to shower with one on. I hear
rumor there are even states that don't require helmets.
> 1.) NFL football players
> 2.) NASCAR drivers
> 3.) Coal Miners
> 4.) All construction workers throughout the world (you know little groups of
> people like that).
> 5.) Motorcycle racers
> 6.) Fighter pilots
> 7.) Army soldiers
>
> In none of those examples is the athlete or employee or person even permitted to
> make their own decision regarding helmet use. Ever hear of something called
> "safety standards" or "safety rules" or "safety laws?"
In every one of those examples an AHJ makes the regulation, not some
job foreman. Och might be a schmuck, but he didn't write the reg, and
Casartelli invoked free will. If removing a helmet weren't allowed at
the time, and would have gotten him DQ'd, he wouldn't have done it -
there would have been no point in continuing to race.
Are you ever right - on anything? I mean seriously, you have a
horrible track record for accuracy. If you made up shit randomly
you'd have better accuracy. Buy a dart board, Chachi.
"All construction workers throughout the world"...? Yeah, right.
Somalia is really up on their protective headgear requirement. You're
even wrong about the situation in the US.
Here's OSHA on construction workers:
1926.100(a)
Employees working in areas where there is a possible danger of head
injury from impact, or from falling or flying objects, or from
electrical shock and burns, shall be protected by protective helmets.
1926.100(b)
Helmets for the protection of employees against impact and penetration
of falling and flying objects shall meet the specifications contained
in American National Standards Institute, Z89.1-1969, Safety
Requirements for Industrial Head Protection.
1926.100(c)
Helmets for the head protection of employees exposed to high voltage
electrical shock and burns shall meet the specifications contained in
American National Standards Institute, Z89.2-1971.
Hmmm, that leaves a lot of wiggle room, doesn't it? But it doesn't
matter as it is not specific to the Casartelli crash. Your teeny
weeny legs have given out on you again, and you resort to the usual
abysmal attempt at dodging and weaving.
Let's make a deal. Be funny, accurate or STFU. Extra points for
funny _and_ accurate.
R
MagillaGorilla
Do people think it was appropriate for Velonews to Photoshop Och's photo
to make the lower half of his face appear to be much larger than it is
and to replace his nose with the nose from an African American?
I personally don't think they should have done that.
Thanks,
Magilla
Tom Kunich
news:rcousine-FBEE01.22593405112009@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]...
>
> I have a friend, who, besides his prediliction for Mapei gear, was also
> wearing a helmet during his fatal bike crash. He went face-first into
> the ashphalt, and never regained consciousness.
According to MemphisMonkey once you put a helmet on you're protected
forever.
RicodJour
>
> According to MemphisMonkey once you put a helmet on you're protected
> forever.
No, what he's actually saying is:
If you ride for Jim Och you will die and probably never make it to the
Olympics.
R
Ryan Cousineau
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > > You don't need an autopsy to assign a cause of death in Casartelli's
> > > case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
> > > that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
> > > examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
> > > classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Magilla
> >
> > ORLY?
> >
> > I have a friend, who, besides his prediliction for Mapei gear, was also
> > wearing a helmet during his fatal bike crash. He went face-first into
> > the ashphalt, and never regained consciousness.
> So? What's your fucking point? Are you saying helmets do not provide
> protection against head injuries?
You're making a lot of claims that Casartelli's death was indisputably
because he didn't wear a helmet. You're not making that case very well.
I think you're failing because it's unmakeable, but buck up! Your
efforts are entertaining. Sort of.
It's not your best work, really,
z
I have to work for a living. Since we all want citations, you'll have to
wait through the weekend.
RicodJour
> MagillaGorilla <magi...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
>
> > So? What's your fucking point? Are you saying helmets do not provide
> > protection against head injuries?
>
> You're making a lot of claims that Casartelli's death was indisputably
> because he didn't wear a helmet. You're not making that case very well.
>
> I think you're failing because it's unmakeable, but buck up! Your
> efforts are entertaining. Sort of.
>
> It's not your best work, really,
This is what I've been telling it. I'm concerned - this look of I
really don't give a fuck that you see on my face? - that's my really
concerned look.
I hope it steps up its game. There are numerous mongoloids waiting in
the wings to take over.
R
MagillaGorilla
> On Nov 6, 8:52�am, MagillaGorilla <magi...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> > z wrote:
> >
> > > Hmm, he was wearing a helmet earlier in the stage. He was a 24 year old
> > > adult. Why should he not have been responsible for his own decisions?
> >
> > > MAGILLA THE NANNY STATE LOVER!!!!
> >
> >
> > For the same reason a motorcyclist is not allowed to remove their helmet as well
> > as the following other "adults":
>
> Sure they are. It would be stupid to shower with one on. I hear
> rumor there are even states that don't require helmets.
>
> > 1.) NFL football players
> > 2.) NASCAR drivers
> > 3.) Coal Miners
> > 4.) All construction workers throughout the world (you know little groups of
> > people like that).
> > 5.) Motorcycle racers
> > 6.) Fighter pilots
> > 7.) Army soldiers
> >
> > In none of those examples is the athlete or employee or person even permitted to
> > make their own decision regarding helmet use. �Ever hear of something called
> > "safety standards" or "safety rules" or "safety laws?"
>
> In every one of those examples an AHJ makes the regulation, not some
> job foreman.
Wrong. NASCAR never had a full face or HANS device rule until Dale Earnhardt died
and yet almost every driver wore a full-face and HANS except Eanrhardt. Thgere was
nothing stopping Ochowicz from ocompelling his riders to wear one.
It''s like a police department can have a policy that requires its officers to wear a
bulletproof vest.
> Och might be a schmuck, but he didn't write the reg, and
> Casartelli invoked free will.
Och had the authority to force Casartelli to wear a helmet. But he didn't Why does
he need the UCI to tell him to wear a helmet? It was OCh's team. Och's was the one
who determined all the of the equipment...but for some reason he didn't want his
riders wearing helmets.
> If removing a helmet weren't allowed at
> the time, and would have gotten him DQ'd, he wouldn't have done it -
> there would have been no point in continuing to race.
Och could have had his own team rule that required his riders to wear a helmet for
safety. He didn't.
What college did you go to?
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
I'm making the case????? Read this article from the Sunday London Times,
fuckhead:
http://www.helmets.org/timesart.htm
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
That's not what I said. I said a helmet offers substantial protection
against head injuries. Do you disagree?
Magilla
RicodJour
New set of fingers, old boy? NASCAR is not a sport. I don't care
what they do, and I know nothing about the sport, the regulations,
etc. I do know that drawing similarities between racing cars at 150
MPH in a race where bumping is legal and a bike race is fucking
stupid. Hey, they wear Nomex suits, let's have Euskatel start up with
that idea!
You're a maroon.
> > Och might be a schmuck, but he didn't write the reg, and
> > Casartelli invoked free will.
>
> Och had the authority to force Casartelli to wear a helmet. But he didn't Why does
> he need the UCI to tell him to wear a helmet? It was OCh's team. Och's was the one
> who determined all the of the equipment...but for some reason he didn't want his
> riders wearing helmets.
Maroon.
> > If removing a helmet weren't allowed at
> > the time, and would have gotten him DQ'd, he wouldn't have done it -
> > there would have been no point in continuing to race.
>
> Och could have had his own team rule that required his riders to wear a helmet for
> safety. He didn't.
You're pappy could have worn a condom - you still wouldn't know who he
is.
> What college did you go to?
TIM, at least that's what it said on my jersey. It doesn't matter
what school I went to, it matters what school you went to and why you
didn't sue them to get your money back.
R
Michael Press
>> MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>> In article <4AF23CBE...@sandiegozoo.com>,
>>>> MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>>>> In article
>>>>>> <f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Any body know where to find the report on the postmortem
>>>>>>>> examination of Casartelli?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, but this gives a bit of info:
>>>>>>> http://www.bhsi.org/timesart.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>> An autopsy was not performed.
>>>>>
>>>>> case. The guy was unconscious where he fell. There's only one thing
>>>>> that will cause that. His head showed a serious injury upon
>>>>> examination. He was bleeding from his nose, ears, and mouth - all
>>>>> classic symptoms of a massive head injury.
>>>>
>>>> on the effect of a helmet.
>>>
>>> Unless he died of a broken neck and not a head injury,
>>
>> Such a finding would give information on the effect of a helmet
>> in that crash.
>>
>>> it is not credible
>>> to surmise that a helmet would not have done any good.
>>
>> It is if the injuries are documented.
>
>
> He died of a head injury, not a broken neck.
We do not know that. An autopsy was not performed.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> There's only 2 things that would cause one to go unconscious in 5 seconds...a broken neck or a
> head injury. A helmet could have prevented both.
We do not know that.
> But you are correct that we do not know what
> was the COD. However, the physician who examined him said it was a massive head injury. That's
> what's on the death certificate.
Physicians are like economists. They say what they are told to say.
--
Michael Press
MagillaGorilla
What is Tiny TIM University?
Thanks,
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
I said a helmet COULD have prevented both. I didn't say WOULD have. Therefore, you are wrong, because we DO know that helmets
COULD protect from head injuries. And in all likelihood WOULD have.
>
>
> > But you are correct that we do not know what
> > was the COD. However, the physician who examined him said it was a massive head injury. That's
> > what's on the death certificate.
>
> Physicians are like economists. They say what they are told to say.
>
> --
> Michael Press
In cases like this we're talking probabilities. not possibilities. When the doctor who examined him said he had a massive injury
on his head and that witnesses say they say his head the concrete post, that's good enough for me. And it should be good enough
for you.
Magillla
MagillaGorilla
> In article <4AF357C5...@sandiegozoo.com>,
> MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> > Michael Press wrote:
> >> In article <4AF2D188...@sandiegozoo.com>,
> >> MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>> In article <4AF23CBE...@sandiegozoo.com>,
> >>>> MagillaGorilla <mag...@sandiegozoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Michael Press wrote:
> >>>>>> In article
> >>>>>> <f889725d-2d12-4c4b...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>>>> DirtRoadie <DirtR...@aol.com> wrote:
You are correct, but a helmet could have prevented both a broken neck and head injury, so it
really doesn't matter.
Magilla
MagillaGorilla
Dumbass,
I'm going by what the doctor who examined him said. What are you going by
to claim I'm "not making the case very well?"
Magilla
http://www.morticom.com/bloodandgutsinjuriesimage28.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabio_Casartelli
But Michel Disteldorf, the French doctor who examined Casartelli's body on
behalf of the coroner in Tarbes, where the rider was flown by helicopter
after he crashed while on a fast descent in the Pyrenees, told The Sunday
Times that the point of impact was on the top of the skull.
Disteldorf said: "There was a small but very violent impact to the top of
the skull a few centimetres to the left of the central axis. Contrary to
several reports, there were no facial injuries. The impact caused several
fractures within the cranium, causing blood to emerge from the nose, ears
and mouth." Disteldorf added that had Casartelli been wearing a hard helmet
"some injuries could have been avoided".[3]
[3]^ Weekes, Richard. The hard truth behind a waste of life. Sunday Times 23
July 1995.
http://www.tdfblog.com/2005/07/tour_will_comme.html
Perhaps the greatest legacy of Casartelli's death is the UCI helmet rule,
which has gradually been strengthened to the point that this year, riders
can be fined for riding without helmets at any time during the race (last
year, they could remove them on finishing climbs).
http://www.bhsi.org/worcestr.htm
Casartelli's death prompted the U.S. Product Safety Commission to issue a
press release urging all cyclists to wear helmets "no matter what their age
or level of skill." An estimated 600,000 bicycle-related injuries were
treated in U.S. hospital emergency rooms last year, about a third of them
injuries to the head or face, according to the commission's chairman, Ann
Brown.
z
MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
> The case for Dale Earnhardt not dying had he worn a full-face helmet and HANS
> device is also speculative, but not seriously questioned by industry and medical
> experts. In fact, NASCAR mandated it after Earnhardt's death, but most team
> owners already required their drivers to wear both. Earnhardt was like the only
> guy who didn't.
>
> Magilla
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device
On February 18, 2001, Dale Earnhardt Sr. was killed in the Daytona 500,
the 4th death in NASCAR in a 14-month span due to basilar skull
fractures. While it is still debated whether his death was the result of
a broken seat belt, or inadequate head and neck restraint, the fact
remained that he died of a Basilar skull fracture, which is prevented by
the proper use of belts and a head / neck restraint.
Before this point, many drivers, including Earnhardt Sr.,[5] resisted
the HANS (and similar) devices, claiming them to be uncomfortable, more
restrictive and fearing that it would cause more injuries and problems
than it prevented. Some stated that the positioning of the device made
the seat belts feel less secure or rubbed on the shoulders or collar
bone. Earnhardt Sr. himself referred to the device as "that damn noose",
claiming the tethers would sooner hang him than save him in the event of
a crash.[5] However, drivers were not willing to participate in the
process of perfecting the fit, and endure the limitations imposed by
such devices.
The device was first adopted by the National Hot Rod Association in
1996, following the death of Top Fuel driver Blaine Johnson, but wasn't
a mandatory device until 2004, after the death of 2003 Top Fuel Rookie
of the Year Darrell Russell, who was killed during the Sears Craftsman
Nationals in Madison, Illinois. Since that time, all drivers in all
categories, either professional, or sportsman, must wear a HANS device,
or risk immediate disqualification from the event. Much like NASCAR, the
NHRA authorized the use of both the HANS, and the Hutchens device until
2005, when the HANS became the sole head and neck restraint device used.
The major difference between the HANS device used in NASCAR, CART, or
Formula 1, and the one used in the NHRA is that the main part of the
device is molded from high strength polymers, and custom made to fit the
individual driver. The NHRA version is also wrapped with seven layers of
Nomex fabric, which is the same material as the seven layer fire suits
that all NHRA drivers must wear. This extra precaution prevents the
device from melting should an engine fire occur.
Formula One mandated HANS devices in 2003 after extensive testing,
sharing the results with other FIA affiliates. Using that information,
CART made the device compulsory for oval tracks in 2001, later requiring
the HANS devices for all circuits. Starting in October, 2001, NASCAR
mandated either the HANS or Hutchens device head and neck restraint be
used, going with the HANS device exclusively starting in 2005. ARCA
followed suit in the wake of a basal skull fracture crash fatality in an
ARCA race at Lowe's in October 2001 which claimed the life of Blaise
Alexander. The World Rally Championship and Australian V8 Supercar
Series made the device compulsory for drivers in the 2005 season.
MagillaGorilla
This is what I said. Why did you post all this?
Magilla
z
Magilla: Earnhardt was like the only guy who didn't.
Consensus of contributors to Wiki: On February 18, 2001, Dale Earnhardt
Sr. was killed in the Daytona 500, the 4th death in NASCAR in a 14-month
span due to basilar skull fractures.
Before this point, many drivers, including Earnhardt Sr.,[5] resisted
the HANS (and similar) devices, claiming them to be uncomfortable, more
restrictive and fearing that it would cause more injuries and problems
than it prevented.
The device was first adopted by the National Hot Rod Association in
1996, following the death of Top Fuel driver Blaine Johnson, but wasn't
a mandatory device until 2004, after the death of 2003 Top Fuel Rookie
of the Year Darrell Russell...
MagillaGorilla
----
You misunderstood. I said Dale Earnhardt was the only NASCAR driver at the time who
wore an OPEN FACE helmet (i.e. no chin guard). He also did not wear the HANS device,,
which MOST, but not all drivers at the time did wear.
When Earnhardt hit the wall in Daytona, his chin/lower face violently impacted the
steering wheel of his car and that's what killed him (the force was transferred though
his jawbone into his neck/skull).
Had he worn a FULL-FACE helmet, the impact with the steering wheel would have been
distributed over a large surface area of the helmet's chin/face guard and transferred
and dissipated throughout the entire helmet design so as to not make it a fatal
injury. The HANS device would have also prevented his head from hitting the steering
wheel in the first place.
So either one of those 2 things would have likely saved his life and both would most
certainly have.
Magilla
z
You just changed your story.
And you're still wrong about HANS Delbruck.
MagillaGorilla
z wrote:
I did not change my story. If you look at the very top of this post in my original post, I
specifically mentioned "full-faced helmet." You clearly thought I was just talking only
about the HANS device, but my post shows I was not.
Your mistake. I'm still waiting for that example of a husband coaching a wife on the
Olympic team, Zorro.
Magilla
RicodJour
>
> Your mistake. I'm still waiting for that example of a husband coaching a wife on the
> Olympic team, Zorro.
You parse poorly, Nim. Your request could be construed as any one of
the following:
- a husband-coach (non-Olympic coach) coaching his wife (who was on
the Olympic team)
- an Olympic team coach who was coaching his wife who was on the
Olympic team
and allowing for your recent "all letters are created equal" style of
posting
- a husband-coach (Olympic or not) couching (read bedding) his
Olympian wife.
I'm hoping it's the last one, as the imagery is hot.
R
MagillaGorilla
If you go back and read the thread, I was talking about the Andy Sparks/Sarah Hammer
wife/husband relationship in the context of the Becky Quinn case.
Magilla
z
His parsing is on par with the rest of his skills.
Donald Munro
> His parsing is on par with the rest of his skills.
Perl sux.