Tyler
Bob Schwartz
Being a douchebag and being a great racer are not mutually exclusive
events. He's always been a great racer. He still is a great racer.
And he's still a douchebag.
If he wins every race he enters, he'll still be a douchebag. If he
rides the Tour and kicks everyone's ass, he's still a douchebag.
He's done his time, he's earned the right to ride again. He had a
great ride and should be congratulated on his win.
But he's still a douchebag.
Bob "Doesn't Believe" Schwartz
Robert Chung
wrote:
Should I be checking through here?
www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com
Mike Jacoubowsky
What, exactly, don't you believe? That he's racing clean now, that he's come to terms with his past (does anybody here believe that?), or what?
It appears to me that you *do* believe, and very strongly. You believe that he's a douchebag. Which is understandable. But I'm actually curious as to what you think of his current results. Do you think he's clean? Just curious.
--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
Bob Schwartz
> But I'm actually curious as to what you think of his current results. Do
you think he's clean? Just curious.
I don't know or care if he's clean.
He's a douchebag for taking denial to new heights.
I find the idea that he can put dishonesty behind him by
winning a bike race to be offensive. If he wants to put
his dishonesty behind him, the process does not involve
winning bike races.
Bob Schwartz
Mike Jacoubowsky
So David Millar sets the standard? Fair enough. Are there any others?
Bob Schwartz
Bergman comes to mind.
The "Deny, deny, deny" strategy is pretty standard in these cases.
But no one has ridden it as far as Tyler. He is exception in that
respect.
Bob Schwartz
Bill C
wrote:
I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime. How many
"douchebags" donate massive time, effort, and cash to charity? Tyler's
a good human being who pulled a monumental fuck-up then didn't own up
to it. Pretty damned long list there of lots of well respected folks
who have done the same.
Bill C
Tom Kunich
> He's still a douchebag.
Imagine that coming from the worst dochebag I've ever read on this group.
Tom Kunich
>
> The "Deny, deny, deny" strategy is pretty standard in these cases.
> But no one has ridden it as far as Tyler. He is exception in that
> respect.
Tell me you stupid ass - what if Tyler didn't use drugs?
Tom Kunich
news:d178085d-938a-410e...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime.
So, what happened to those who DID admit that they used drugs? Couldn't find
a job? And by the way Bill, what puts you in a position to judge the actions
of others?
Bob Schwartz
Haven is a hot chick, so they're eligible.
Bob Schwartz
Bob Schwartz
> I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime. How many
> "douchebags" donate massive time, effort, and cash to charity? Tyler's
> a good human being who pulled a monumental fuck-up then didn't own up
> to it. Pretty damned long list there of lots of well respected folks
> who have done the same.
> Bill C
Exactly so. The way to pull that off is to at some point just
STFU about it. Lots of riders get popped, issue the denial,
and then clam up while they wait out their time. For some
reason, Tyler never got the memo.
He didn't just fuck up monumentally. He put his fuck up in
the blender and then hit the highest setting so that it
splattered into every corner of his life.
As fuck ups go, he's in a class by himself.
But he's also a very talented racer. Congratulations to him
on his win. He'll look good in stars and stripes.
Bob Schwartz
Mike Jacoubowsky
news:B82dnR2ygKp1pCHV...@earthlink.com...
I don't think the issue was whether Tyler was using "drugs" was it? I
thought it was a simple case of blood doping gone bad (mixed bags). Wasn't
there another member of this team in the same situation, making it appear
likely that it was as simple as bags being switched?
There's lots of room for making claims about tests not being good enough,
but Tyler's case seemed a bit different, and if I recall correctly, there
were things he could have done himself that would have proved his case.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Bill C
wrote:
Bob he lied about bike racing. He didn't cook the intel to go to war,
he didn't lie about a political break in, wasn't lieing about screwing
around on his wife.
Every life is a balance, some are Mother Theresa, some are Jeff
Dahlmer almost all are in between. Tyler's actions weren't good,
unfortunately aren't unusual, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Mark
McGuire, etc...but they are massively less than shit in the real
world, and Tyler does a LOT of good for people in the real world.
Different priorities and strokes for different folks I guess.
I was sticking up for, and like, Justin Spinelli a lot when he was
getting killed by just about everyone in the cycling game for being
honest. A rabid dog shouldn't be treated the way he was. Made the
Crusaders happy though. Just have to wonder how many of them were, or
are doping?
Bill C
Bill C
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
Hey Tom I'm a living breathing human being with a value system, only
the brain dead don't make judgements every day, about most everyone
they meet. The only reason not to make a judgement is lack of
information and then you file it in the pending file. How do you
decide who to do business with, have coffee with, talk to at the bus
stop, or on a ride?
Life's not fair and the system is screwed but we know that.
Bill C
benn.t...@hotmail.com
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:B82dnR2ygKp1pCHV...@earthlink.com...
>
> >news:FGWuk.5424$zv7....@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> >> The "Deny, deny, deny" strategy is pretty standard in these cases.
> >> But no one has ridden it as far as Tyler. He is exception in that
> >> respect.
>
> > Tell me you stupid ass - what if Tyler didn't use drugs?
>
> I don't think the issue was whether Tyler was using "drugs" was it? I
> thought it was a simple case of blood doping gone bad (mixed bags). Wasn't
> there another member of this team in the same situation, making it appear
> likely that it was as simple as bags being switched?
>
> There's lots of room for making claims about tests not being good enough,
> but Tyler's case seemed a bit different, and if I recall correctly, there
> were things he could have done himself that would have proved his case.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Now don't go confusing the issue, or Mr. Kunich, with any stubborn
facts...
ronaldo_jeremiah
> Every life is a balance, some are Mother Theresa, some are Jeff
> Dahlmer almost all are in between.
Consider what an evil woman MT was, you're not leaving us a lot of
room.
-rj
Bill C
wrote:
I'm pretty thick. I guess I failed that recent bit of education. ;-)
Bill C
Amit Ghosh
> I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime. How many
> "douchebags" donate massive time, effort, and cash to charity? Tyler's
> a good human being who pulled a monumental fuck-up then didn't own up
> to it. Pretty damned long list there of lots of well respected folks
> who have done the same.
dumbass,
hamilton didn't have a monumental fuck up - he was doing what almost
every rider at that level was. we have seen the dope calendar and
faxes from fuentes.
hamilton contested the giro with a broken shoulder blade. in 2003 he
attacked the front group on a mountain with a broken collarbone and on
a subsequent stage soloed away from the peloton to win a in bayonne.
but like sausages and laws people don't want to see how those moments
are made - and when he did test positive they threw him under the bus.
but, i am glad that hamilton and rock racing won the US Pro and waxed
the aw-shucks chipotle homeboys in the process.
hopefully this will drive out all the "dopers suck"/ex-lance-o-phile
crowd away and back to whitewater rafting or rollerblading or whatever
it was they were doing before they took a spinning class.
they will never understand that bike racing is competition and not
whatever it is called when upper middle class schmoebags run marathons
for the t-shirt and the blogging opportunity.
top level bike racing isn't about mass participation or personal
goals, it is competition - that is why there is doping in bike
racing.
that is why there is doping in bike racing
Tom Kunich
On Sep 1, 2:53 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > >
> >
> > So, what happened to those who DID admit that they used drugs? Couldn't
> > find
> > a job? And by the way Bill, what puts you in a position to judge the
> > actions
> > of others?
>
> Hey Tom I'm a living breathing human being with a value system, only
> the brain dead don't make judgements every day, about most everyone
> they meet.
Remember that I'm on your side Bill. But making judgements about stuff you
know absolutely nothing about except what's written by morons on this group
or in newspapers by fifth hand information certainly isn't a good way to
judge others.
Bill C
> "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:270731e5-552a-47dc...@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 1, 2:53 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> > > "Bill C" <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime.
>
> > > So, what happened to those who DID admit that they used drugs? Couldn't
> > > find
> > > a job? And by the way Bill, what puts you in a position to judge the
> > > actions
> > > of others?
>
> > Hey Tom I'm a living breathing human being with a value system, only
> > the brain dead don't make judgements every day, about most everyone
> > they meet.
>
> Remember that I'm on your side Bill. But making judgements about stuff you
> know absolutely nothing about except what's written by morons on this group
> or in newspapers by fifth hand information certainly isn't a good way to
> judge others.
You can't know everyone personally Tom. Gotta make the best read you
can, leave it open, and run with it as a working hypothesis. My
personal judgement would be pretty sketchy to a lot of folks since
I've been friends, more or less, with some real nasty, criminal folks
and really do try to see the good in everyone, and say it. We deal a
lot in philosophical and abstract issues here, and there I'm about as
cynical as it gets, but when it comes to individual people it's a
totally different story.
Bill C
Amit Ghosh
> I was sticking up for, and like, Justin Spinelli a lot when he was
> getting killed by just about everyone in the cycling game for being
> honest.
dumbass,
oh yeah bill crowther, the only one man in the world who feels empathy
for all the victims out there.
oh please, i don't remember spinelli ever "getting killed by just
Tom Kunich
>
> You can't know everyone personally Tom. Gotta make the best read you
> can, leave it open, and run with it as a working hypothesis. My
> personal judgement would be pretty sketchy to a lot of folks since
> I've been friends, more or less, with some real nasty, criminal folks
> and really do try to see the good in everyone, and say it. We deal a
> lot in philosophical and abstract issues here, and there I'm about as
> cynical as it gets, but when it comes to individual people it's a
> totally different story.
Although to me it looks like Tyler was using the same stuff as probably the
majority of the peloton, I'm not going to let my suspicions take me to the
point where I'd treat it as fact.
Morten Reippuert Knudsen
> Although to me it looks like Tyler was using the same stuff as probably
> the majority of the peloton
We know that he was on the same stuff as Fuentes other clients, the
most prominent of those where: Ulrich , Basso, Beloki, Heras, Contador,
Aitor Gonzales, Davis, Mancebo, Valverde, Paulinio, Jachkse, Nozal,
Sevilia, Dekker (the unger) etc.
--
mvh. Morten Reippuert Knudsen
"Besides, if you can't get a decent kernal panic
or two in a month, what's the point of living?"
Ryan Cousineau
<e535cf2b-7934-459e...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh Lord...
Look, I know the Hitchens doc was verrry convincing and all, but
essentially he accused Mother Teresa of being, you know, really Catholic.
I'm sure that's totally the same as walking arm-in-arm with the devil
these days, but it wasn't exactly a shock, either to her donors or to
those she worked with.
Controversy aside, her adopted country of India gave her a state funeral
when she died. I guess they just enjoy evil in India.
--
Ryan Cousineau rcou...@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Michael Press
Bob Schwartz <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
In that climate I would go with straight denial all the way
down the line. I would make a better job of it, though the
strategy is exactly as Tyler Hamilton used. Deny, deny, deny.
Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
Of _course_ he used drugs. What are you on?
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<d178085d-938a-410e...@b38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <trito...@verizon.net> wrote:
I do not see where a drug using athlete owes me or the fans
or the public admissions. To the contrary I admire those who
stonewall accusations, positive tests, and sanctions. Admissions
and `apologies' are almost always revolting.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
Bob Schwartz <bob.sc...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net> wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > I believe he lied. I hope we find out why sometime. How many
> > "douchebags" donate massive time, effort, and cash to charity? Tyler's
> > a good human being who pulled a monumental fuck-up then didn't own up
> > to it. Pretty damned long list there of lots of well respected folks
> > who have done the same.
> > Bill C
>
> Exactly so. The way to pull that off is to at some point just
> STFU about it. Lots of riders get popped, issue the denial,
> and then clam up while they wait out their time. For some
> reason, Tyler never got the memo.
I better understand your point of view, and find now that
we agree more than I previously thought.
--
Michael Press
Michael Press
<f4778736-dc73-4b84...@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <trito...@verizon.net> wrote:
Mother Teresa was a nasty piece of work, if not in Jeffy boys' class.
--
Michael Press
Kurgan Gringioni
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in messagenews:B82dnR2ygKp1pCHV...@earthlink.com...
>
> >news:FGWuk.5424$zv7....@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> >> The "Deny, deny, deny" strategy is pretty standard in these cases.
> >> But no one has ridden it as far as Tyler. He is exception in that
> >> respect.
>
> > Tell me you stupid ass - what if Tyler didn't use drugs?
>
> I don't think the issue was whether Tyler was using "drugs" was it? I
> thought it was a simple case of blood doping gone bad (mixed bags). Wasn't
> there another member of this team in the same situation, making it appear
> likely that it was as simple as bags being switched?
Dumbass -
Yes, his roomate tested the same, at the same time.
They're both lucky they're not dead.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
Bill C
Was he living and racing in your back yard, for and with your friends?
He was in mine, and at races I worked on top of that, but you would
know much better than the folks here who DID give him a chance.
Luckily a couple of really well respected folks did that.
Bill C
Bill C
> I do not see where a drug using athlete owes me or the fans
> or the public admissions. To the contrary I admire those who
> stonewall accusations, positive tests, and sanctions. Admissions
> and `apologies' are almost always revolting.
>
> --
> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
They don't. We also don't owe them any support in the future. How
they play it is up to them, but sport depends on "civilians" to keep
it going so they, rightly, have some expectations in return for that
support. They invest time and money into sponsors and events, and have
a right to a return. If it's negative then they have a right to bitch
and hold folks accountable.
Bill C
Tom Kunich
news:aac768a3-eb27-489b...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yes, his roomate tested the same, at the same time.
>
> They're both lucky they're not dead.
Psst - remember that they're different blood types? That means that if they
switched blood bags that at least one of them would be dead.
Tom Kunich
news:48bcb4ed$0$90272$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...
> On 2008-09-02 04:27:30 +0200, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> said:
>
>> Although to me it looks like Tyler was using the same stuff as probably
>> the majority of the peloton
>
> We know that he was on the same stuff as Fuentes other clients, the most
> prominent of those where: Ulrich , Basso, Beloki, Heras, Contador, Aitor
> Gonzales, Davis, Mancebo, Valverde, Paulinio, Jachkse, Nozal, Sevilia,
> Dekker (the unger) etc.
Interesting that you have access to police records. Why don't you simply
distribute the police reports so that we can know all about it as well?
Howard Kveck
Huh, and here you've telling us all along how much you know about blood. I guess
you forgot about how some types are compatable with others, particularly if they're
reduced down to packed red cells.
___________________
Blood group AB individuals have both A and B antigens on the surface of their
RBCs, and their blood serum does not contain any antibodies against either A or B
antigen. Therefore, an individual with type AB blood can receive blood from any group
(with AB being preferable), but can donate blood only to another group AB individual.
Blood group A individuals have the A antigen on the surface of their RBCs, and
blood serum containing IgM antibodies against the B antigen. Therefore, a group A
individual can receive blood only from individuals of groups A or O (with A being
preferable), and can donate blood to individuals with type A or AB.
Blood group B individuals have the B antigen on the surface of their RBCs, and
blood serum containing IgM antibodies against the A antigen. Therefore, a group B
individual can receive blood only from individuals of groups B or O (with B being
preferable), and can donate blood to individuals with type B or AB.
Blood group O (or blood group zero in some countries) individuals do not have
either A or B antigens on the surface of their RBCs, but their blood serum contains
IgM anti-A antibodies and anti-B antibodies against the A and B blood group antigens.
Therefore, a group O individual can receive blood only from a group O individual, but
can donate blood to individuals of any ABO blood group (ie A, B, O or AB). If anyone
needs a blood transfusion in a dire emergency, and if the time taken to process the
recipient's blood would cause a detrimental delay, O Negative blood can be issued.
___________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_types#Compatibility
--
tanx,
Howard
The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
alan...@sbcglobal.net
> Remember that I'm on your side Bill. But making judgements about stuff you
> know absolutely nothing about except what's written by morons on this group
> or in newspapers by fifth hand information certainly isn't a good way to
> judge others.
Tom...I thought a "fifth hand" was that thingee you use to adjust
brakes....ABS
Mike Jacoubowsky
> goals, it is competition - that is why there is doping in bike
> racing.
"Competition" is a pretty broad rationale for cheating. We "compete" in all
manner of endeavors, from trying to score in the upper percentiles in school
to dating to getting a job... even buying a house.
It's a slippery slope, and underscores deep-rooted ethical issues that go
far beyond cycling. Cycling makes it easy to point at and criticize because,
for most of us, it isn't "us" but rather "them." We don't have to look
introspectively at our own actions. Or if we do, we think we're a lot better
than they are.
That's nice to believe, but probably not true. Athletes cheat for the same
reason anybody else does. It's a risk/benefit thing. The benefits are too
great, and the risks too low. They don't cheat just because it's
"competition." They no different, no better, no worse, than anyone else.
They have no better excuses. The only difference is that we get a whole lot
more documentation and hindsight ability with atheletes than with the
average person.
"There but for the grace of God go I" isn't far off the mark. Maybe we don't
dope in competition, but how many have been a bit loose with facts on
resumes or financial statements for loans? How many fudge a bit on taxes
because "everyone does, they don't really expect me to go out of my way to
list everything, right?" How many have peered over at another person's desk
during a test?
Don't make special excuses for athletes because they're in "competition."
Some of us (myself included) should spend that time making excuses for what
we've done ourselves. And while doing so, try to figure out it that was
really the right thing to do in the first place. Could we be just a little
bit more transparent. A little bit more honest.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
"Amit Ghosh" <amit....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0977e984-d5a6-411a...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Kurgan Gringioni
>
> top level bike racing isn't about mass participation or personal
> goals, it is competition - that is why there is doping in bike
> racing.
Dumbass -
In this doping culture, there will always be doping in professional
sports. Not just cycling.
thanks,
K. Gringioni.
bjwe...@gmail.com
> dumbass,
>
> hamilton didn't have a monumental fuck up - he was doing what almost
> every rider at that level was. we have seen the dope calendar and
> faxes from fuentes.
>
> hamilton contested the giro with a broken shoulder blade. in 2003 he
> attacked the front group on a mountain with a broken collarbone and on
> a subsequent stage soloed away from the peloton to win a in bayonne.
> but like sausages and laws people don't want to see how those moments
> are made - and when he did test positive they threw him under the bus.
>
> but, i am glad that hamilton and rock racing won the US Pro and waxed
> the aw-shucks chipotle homeboys in the process.
>
> hopefully this will drive out all the "dopers suck"/ex-lance-o-phile
> crowd away and back to whitewater rafting or rollerblading or whatever
> it was they were doing before they took a spinning class.
>
> they will never understand that bike racing is competition and not
> whatever it is called when upper middle class schmoebags run marathons
> for the t-shirt and the blogging opportunity.
>
> top level bike racing isn't about mass participation or personal
> goals, it is competition - that is why there is doping in bike
> racing.
>
> that is why there is doping in bike racing
Dumbass,
Hamilton doesn't agree with you.
Hamilton didn't win this one for the "that's the way
it is" dopers over the squeaky-clean Chipotle suckers.
Don't confuse Hamilton with somebody like Museeuw,
a representative of old-school cycling (and doping).
Ty-Ty wins races for believetyler.org.
The upper middle class schmoebags and
lance-o-philes (even ex-lance-o-philes) that you
are complaining about are the same people that
think Tyler and Floyd got framed.
Tyler isn't a jagoff for doping, serving time, and
coming back and winning. He isn't even a jagoff
for insisting on his innocence for a month or two,
everybody does that. He is a jagoff for insulting
his audience by continuing the believetyler
charade to the point of moon-landing-conspiracy
departure from reality. Not to mention the whole
swearing-on-his-dog Lifetime Channel story.
Ben
SLAVE of THE STATE
> How many fudge a bit on taxes ...
Dumbass,
Can I get some hints?
Thanks,
SoTS
Keith
As usual an interesting and balanced write-up, thanks, a bit change
from the usual crap that gets posted here by half-wits and dare I say
it half-dumbasses !
Kurgan Gringioni
>
> As usual an interesting and balanced write-up, thanks, a bit change
> from the usual crap that gets posted here by half-wits and dare I say
> it half-dumbasses !
Dumbass -
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am not a half dumbass. I am a
full dumbass.
thank you very much,
K. Gringioni.
Michael Press
Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> As usual an interesting and balanced write-up, thanks, a bit change
> from the usual crap that gets posted here by half-wits and dare I say
> it half-dumbasses !
Slumming?
--
Michael Press