Hey it really WAS the beer!
Thomas A. Fine
Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.
The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.
Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.
Cholesterol is produced by the liver.
Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.
Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.
So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?
Hmmm...
tom
Bob Martin
So FL was the only rider who drank beer during the TdF?
Tony Rall
> So FL was the only rider who drank beer during the TdF?
No. FL was the only one subjected to the isotope test.
--
Tony Rall
RonSonic
Damn it DON'T LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!! Ignore the man there with the levers
waving his hands.
The test if foolproof, error is not possible with the isotope test.
Ron
Mike
the blood stream is hundreds of mg/dL. The steady state pool of
testosterone in blood is hundreds of ng/dL (a million times less). If
the turnover rate of cholesterol is slow (I think it is) a short pulse
of a different isotopic abundance may not make much of a difference.
Also I think the the isotope results are reported as a difference
between the d13C values observed for cholesterol (as an internal
control) and the d13C values obtained for testosterone.
The only way that this hypothesis would make sense is if the
testosterone in the testes is preferentially synthesized from the
freshly made cholesterol or other steroid precursors.
Thomas A. Fine
Mike <mmos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>One thing to consider is that the steady state pool of cholesterol in
>the blood stream is hundreds of mg/dL. The steady state pool of
>testosterone in blood is hundreds of ng/dL (a million times less). If
>the turnover rate of cholesterol is slow (I think it is) a short pulse
>of a different isotopic abundance may not make much of a difference.
What happens to the steady state pool of cholesterol when you bonk?
> Also I think the the isotope results are reported as a difference
>between the d13C values observed for cholesterol (as an internal
>control) and the d13C values obtained for testosterone.
No one knows exactly what they use, because WADA doesn't disclose such
details. Many of the studies that the test is based on used
pregnanediol, which is also derived from cholesterol. I don't know how
production of pregnanediol compares with testosterone in the short
term. If it is replaced more slowly than testosterone, then the
bonk->beer->testosterone-surge would make a failed test very possible,
perhaps even likely.
>The only way that this hypothesis would make sense is if the
>testosterone in the testes is preferentially synthesized from the
>freshly made cholesterol or other steroid precursors.
Or if cholesterol is naturally depleted by the metabolism of an
elite athlete bonking. Or perhaps a dozen other scenarios that
neither one of us is smart enough to think of. You know, it's
interesting to listen to an engineer swear up and down that something
is impossible, and assure you that they've thought about it every
which way and there's no way for some scenario to happen. And then
when presented with the impossible scenario, the same engineer will
come up with two or three solid working theories to explain why,
within just a few minutes. I've see people do this many times, and
I've seen myself do it too.
At any rate, a study has shown that alterations in diet CAN be
immediately seen in testosterone metabolites. Whatever the underlying
theory, there is definitely a mechanism by which the newest cholesterol
is picked up.
tom
coldbeer!, get your coldbeer!
bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd blamed
the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration. Thanks
for doing the homework.
"Thomas A. Fine" <fi...@head-cfa.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:44ed442f$1...@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu...
Howard Kveck
"coldbeer!, get your coldbeer!" <d...@aylor.com> wrote:
> I think you're on to something (or INTO something, like halfway into a kilo
> bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd blamed
> the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration. Thanks
> for doing the homework.
I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink Floyd" had
some real meaning.
--
tanx,
Howard
Never take a tenant with a monkey.
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Donald Munro
> I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink Floyd" had
> some real meaning.
And if he bonked you could say he hit The Wall.
Jonathan v.d. Sluis
@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:
> Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.
...
> So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
> the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
> by the liver?
>
> Hmmm...
>
> tom
Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion depends on
where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone had been
produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope test.
coldbeer!, get your coldbeer!
news:YOURhoward-23684...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <vIoHg.3612$q63....@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
> "coldbeer!, get your coldbeer!" <d...@aylor.com> wrote:
>
> > I think you're on to something (or INTO something, like halfway into a
kilo
> > bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd
blamed
> > the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration.
Thanks
> > for doing the homework.
>
> I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink
Floyd" had
> some real meaning.
That would have been sweet. Floyd would only have had wear pink for one
day. If Pink had started the Giro, there would've been one problem - you
can't compare Basso's molasses blood to Floyd's beer. Too bad they hadn't
caught Basso before the Giro. And I say this for reasons other than Pink.
OK, I'll stop calling him Pink now. It's out of my system.
SH
Thomas A. Fine wrote:
> You know, it's
> interesting to listen to an engineer swear up and down that something
> is impossible, and assure you that they've thought about it every
> which way and there's no way for some scenario to happen. And then
> when presented with the impossible scenario, the same engineer will
> come up with two or three solid working theories to explain why,
> within just a few minutes. I've see people do this many times, and
> I've seen myself do it too.
> tom
Dumbass,
If you have truly witnessed engineers do this, then we need to have
their names so that we can revoke their membership cards.
That, or they're not real engineers to begin with.
Thomas A. Fine
You're not followin' me son. I'm telling you that his body, potentially
anyones body, can produce divergent isotope ratios in two different
steroids, sufficient to fail the isotope test.
tom
"Nice boy, but he doesn't pay attention to a word you say."
"That boy's so dumb, he things a Mexican border pays rent!"
"That's a joke, son. A flag waver. You're built too low. The fast ones
go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and
you keep missin' 'em. Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye. Ball. I
almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is."
-- Foghorn Leghorn
Jonathan v.d. Sluis
> In article <Xns982A81CCF2E...@82.197.196.35>,
> Jonathan v.d. Sluis <nos...@nospam.nl> wrote:
>>fi...@head-cfa.harvard.edu (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in news:44ed442f$1
>>@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:
>>
>>> Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.
>>...
>>> So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
>>> the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
>>> by the liver?
>>>
>>> Hmmm...
>>>
>>> tom
>>
>>Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion
>>depends on where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone
>>had been produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope
>>test.
>
> You're not followin' me son.
Bye.
dbrower
During the tour, CycleOps (the power tap people behind Allen Lim) did a
whole series of podcasts on http://simplystu.com, a website they run
for Triathletes. One of the running topics (and jokes) was diet and the
amount of meusli the riders are fed, and how the recipe was a secret of
one of the Seignouirs, revealed in one of the later episodes. The main
ingredient of meusli is rolled oats, which is not far off from Free
Floyd's "diet can elevate test results", and Tom Fine's, "Hey maybe it
was the beer."
Now, some obvious questions are:
* Everybody eats meusli, how come it was only Floyd?
* Didn't the study for the CIR take this into account?
I think a difference might be that Floyd moved from training in the US,
near home, to Europe in the run up. Doing so changed his dietary
consumption sources completely. Maybe this resulted in some C12/C13
balance alterations. If such a change did occur, I kind of doubt that
the studies done in validating the CIR for doping tests took it into
account. More likely, it was run on a bunch of athletes in their home
environment eating a stable diet.
I'm a little joking, and a little serious. What do you think?
-dB
--
Floyd news and comment roundup at http://trustbut.blogspot.com
dbrower
> > I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink
> Floyd" had
> > some real meaning.
maybe that's WHY he didn't do the Giro...
-dB
--
Landis News/Comment roundup at http://trustbut.blogspot.com
meb
Since endogenous testosterone and epitestoerone are produce
concurrently, the logical choice would be to compare the istopic ratio
on the epitestosterone as the standard. At any rate, since it's going
to be an open hearing and Floyd's legal team will need see what was
used as the standard, we should see if the standard selected was
reasonable.
Were several standards selected? If so, might be interested in seeing
if the C13/C12 isotopic ratio varies with differing standards.
--
meb
RonSonic
>I'd forgotten about this.
>
>During the tour, CycleOps (the power tap people behind Allen Lim) did a
>whole series of podcasts on http://simplystu.com, a website they run
>for Triathletes. One of the running topics (and jokes) was diet and the
>amount of meusli the riders are fed, and how the recipe was a secret of
>one of the Seignouirs, revealed in one of the later episodes. The main
>ingredient of meusli is rolled oats, which is not far off from Free
>Floyd's "diet can elevate test results", and Tom Fine's, "Hey maybe it
>was the beer."
>
>Now, some obvious questions are:
>
> * Everybody eats meusli, how come it was only Floyd?
He was the only one to get an isotope test.
> * Didn't the study for the CIR take this into account?
Who knows.
>I think a difference might be that Floyd moved from training in the US,
>near home, to Europe in the run up. Doing so changed his dietary
>consumption sources completely. Maybe this resulted in some C12/C13
>balance alterations. If such a change did occur, I kind of doubt that
>the studies done in validating the CIR for doping tests took it into
>account. More likely, it was run on a bunch of athletes in their home
>environment eating a stable diet.
>
>I'm a little joking, and a little serious. What do you think?
The only reason I'm joking is my chemistry sucks too badly for me to be solidly
outraged.
Ron