Kroon v. Hincapie
bar
v. Boonen from a few years ago ... poor George (well not really);
Kroon's just a better classics rider ... i hope BMC rides for Kroon
this spring and not for that veiny old fart
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hincapie-to-tune-up-for-classics-at-tour-down-under
RicodJour
> I didn't realize they were both on BMC now ... it'll be like Tommeke
> v. Boonen from a few years ago ... poor George (well not really);
> Kroon's just a better classics rider
I do not believe it is quite so clear cut. Hopefully the Vascular One
will harbor some grudges from last year and use them as fuel. We
shall see.
R
heather
> i hope BMC rides for Kroon
> this spring and not for that veiny old fart
What about Ballan? (is he too veiny for you too? or are my annoying-
lack-of-brains showing and it's something else, like, he's a different
kind of rider, or, his fork has it in for him, or, it's in his
contract not to race with gh, or, I read the article wrong and he's
not even on team BMC, or?)
I am being sincere (bro).
Please pardon my ignorance,
h
bar
omg you're right!! Ballan's there too ... and Burghardt. They'll have
to ride for Ballan and Kroon in the classics ...
> Please pardon my ignorance,
Ignorance is unpardonable, sis. There's no excuse for it.
Amit Ghosh
> I didn't realize they were both on BMC now ... it'll be like Tommeke
> v. Boonen from a few years ago ... poor George (well not really);
> Kroon's just a better classics rider ...
dumbass,
kroon ? he's good on some terrain, but he's not a guy that wins
races.
i don't think the boonen and hincapie comparison is apt since when
they were both on US postal boonen had yet to be considered a
classsics threat. i think a better comparison is hincapie and hoste on
postal.
bar
> On Dec 22, 7:45 pm, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I didn't realize they were both on BMC now ... it'll be like Tommeke
> > v. Boonen from a few years ago ... poor George (well not really);
> > Kroon's just a better classics rider ...
>
> dumbass,
>
> kroon ? he's good on some terrain, but he's not a guy that wins
> races.
i'm not sure Kroon's ever been given a solid shot at winning ...
hasn't he always ridden for someone else? if they let him ride, i
think we'll see something.
> i don't think the boonen and hincapie comparison is apt since when
> they were both on US postal boonen had yet to be considered a
> classsics threat. i think a better comparison is hincapie and hoste on
> postal.
yes, that's better. but still ... Ballan is a former world champ,
former RVV (toughest race outside of RAAM) winner, and has been on the
podium at P-R. Why would BMC ride for anyone but him in the
classics? Hincapie's gonna spend the year fetching water.
heather
You said that you hoped BMC rode for Kroon, and I was wondering if you
were ok if they rode for Ballan instead? It seemed like you paid
attention to bike racing and might have something interesting to
write. (I have no idea if you are a just huge Kroon fan, or what. I'm
sorry I don't already know about your preferences without you telling
me, but I guess, as you point out, there's no excuse for that, and I'm
sorry.)
h
http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/081709/you-dont-argue-right.gif
Bob Schwartz
This is a good move for Hincapie. Some guys win when they are
one of several threats, Hincapie is one of them. It ain't like
BMC has the depth of a Quick Step but he isn't (and has never
been) strong enough to justify building a team around.
Bob Schwartz
Scott
Is Boonen schizophrenic? There was no Tommeke v Boonen. Dumbass,
Tommeke = Boonen. It's one of his many nicknames.
bar
> On Dec 23, 5:37 am, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 22, 8:39 pm, heather <cle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 22, 4:45 pm, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > i hope BMC rides for Kroon
> > > > this spring and not for that veiny old fart
>
> > > What about Ballan? (is he too veiny for you too? or are my annoying-
> > > lack-of-brains showing and it's something else, like, he's a different
> > > kind of rider, or, his fork has it in for him, or, it's in his
> > > contract not to race with gh, or, I read the article wrong and he's
> > > not even on team BMC, or?)
>
> > > I am being sincere (bro).
>
> > omg you're right!! Ballan's there too ... and Burghardt. They'll have
> > to ride for Ballan and Kroon in the classics ...
>
> > > Please pardon my ignorance,
>
> > Ignorance is unpardonable, sis. There's no excuse for it.
>
> You said that you hoped BMC rode for Kroon, and I was wondering if you
> were ok if they rode for Ballan instead?
yes indeed ... i like Ballan and Kroon, but deep down i hope Kroon
gets the chance to ride for himself a little this year.
> It seemed like you paid
> attention to bike racing and might have something interesting to
> write.
always! haven't you been following my memes as they spread throughout
rbr and the land?!?
> (I have no idea if you are a just huge Kroon fan, or what. I'm
> sorry I don't already know about your preferences without you telling
> me, but I guess, as you point out, there's no excuse for that, and I'm
> sorry.)
> hhttp://www.toothpastefordinner.com/081709/you-dont-argue-right.gif
http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/epic-fail-law-firm-name-fail.jpg
bar
of course you're right. it's a typo, and a reminder to all you
douchebags of the dangers of posting to rbr while hammered out of your
fucking mind on kentucky bourbon ...
LIVEDRUNK and prosper!
Donald Munro
> sorry I don't already know about your preferences without you telling
> me,
Way too much information.
z
Dumbass,
Boonen placed third in Paris-Roubaix in his first year as a pro. You
don't get to contest the finish of a race like PR without being regarded
as a classics threat.
heather
> yes indeed ... i like Ballan and Kroon, but deep down i hope Kroon
> gets the chance to ride for himself a little this year.
Oh, ok! Now I understand your other post. Thanks!
> haven't you been following my memes as they spread throughout
> rbr and the land?!?
Well, I try to keep up, but being slow I am always going to be your
lanterne rouge.
heather
Scott
Cav won MSR w/out being considered a classics threat.
z
z
"Classics" has as much to do with being a long standing race as it does
with anything else (except in the US where it is not uncommon to refer
to an inaugural event as a "Classic"). There are plenty of classics that
have been won by riders like Cavendish. Cipo won classics. So has
Petacchi. But you don't get to play your hand in trying to win one,
especially one as hard as PR, without being a legitimate threat for the win.
bar
You hear that?!!? Heather is MY lanterne rouge :)
sweet
Amit Ghosh
>
> Dumbass,
>
> Boonen placed third in Paris-Roubaix in his first year as a pro. You
> don't get to contest the finish of a race like PR without being regarded
> as a classics threat.
dumbass,
you have to have some good placing before you are considered a threat.
not the other way around. at the time boonen was a top prospect, not
an actual classics star.
Amit Ghosh
>
> Cav won MSR w/out being considered a classics threat.
dumbass,
i consider classics riding to be races where there a small groups or
solo riders duking it out. riding in a big pack is much, much easier
than racing in small groups.
MSR is a long running race, but it doesn't involve the kind of riding
that RVV, paris roubaix, lombardy etc. involves.
Amit Ghosh
> yes, that's better. but still ... Ballan is a former world champ,
> former RVV (toughest race outside of RAAM) winner, and has been on the
> podium at P-R. Why would BMC ride for anyone but him in the
> classics? Hincapie's gonna spend the year fetching water.
dumbass,
teams that do well in classics have a few good riders. in tactical
races like RVV or E3 they can use their representation in breaks and
chase groups to their advantage and any of the good riders might get a
shot at a win - like quickstep did for devolder this year they did
with potato at MSR.
in strongman races like LBL it's more logical that the team will work
for the designated leader. i'm not convinced ballan can win in the
ardennes - that terrain suits evans and kroon better.
z
Dumbass,
1999 (Espoir-Kortrijk Groeninge Sporter) - 1 victoire
1er du Prix de Hoeilaart.
2�me de l'Univest Grand Prix.
6�me de Paris-Roubaix.
6�me du Tour du Limbourg.
6�me du Tour d'Anvers.
10�me du Tour des Flandres.
12�me du Championnat de Belgique sur route.
2000 (Espoir-Kortrijk Groeninge Sporter) - 8 victoires
1er de Paris-Tours.
1er de la Vlaanderen Europa Classic.
1er de la Zuidkempische Pijl.
1er des 1�re et 4�me �tapes du Tour du Limbourg.
1er de la 1�re �tape du Triptyque des Monts et Ch�teaux.
1er de la 4�me �tape du Tour d'Anvers.
1er du Prix de Retie.
2�me du Championnat de Belgique sur route.
3�me de Paris-Roubaix.
3�me du Grand Prix Etienne De Wilde.
3�me de la Beverbeek Classic.
3�me du Tour du Limbourg.
4�me du Grand Prix Willy Teirlinck.
6�me du Triptyque des Monts et Ch�teaux.
6�me du Zesbergenprijs Harelbeke.
9�me de Hasselt-Spa-Hasselt.
12�me du Grand Prix du Haut Escaut.
15�me du Tour des Flandres.
16�me de Gand-Ieper-Kattekoers.
11�me du Classement UCI Espoirs.
2001 (Espoir-Kortrijk Groeninge Sporter) - 10 victoires
1er du Championnat de Belgique sur route.
1er de Zellik-Galmaarden.
1er du Grand Prix du Haut Escaut.
1er de l'IWT Jong Maar Moedig.
1er de la Zuidkempische Pijl.
1er de la 4�me �tape A du Grand Prix Guillaume Tell.
1er de la 4�me �tape du Tour de Li�ge.
1er du Prix de Gooik.
1er du Prix de Hombeek.
1er du Prix de Mol-Rauw.
2�me de Li�ge-Bastogne-Li�ge.
2�me du Het Volk.
2�me du Circuit du Hainaut.
3�me de Hasselt-Spa-Hasselt.
3�me du Grand Prix de Waregem.
4�me de Paris-Roubaix.
4�me du Grand Prix Wielerrevue.
4�me de la Vlaanderen Europa Classic.
5�me de Gand-Ieper-Kattekoers.
6�me de la Fl�che Ardennaise.
7�me de la Fl�che Flamande.
8�me du Tour des Flandres.
8�me du Tryptique des Barrages.
9�me du Grand Prix Lys Lez Lannoy.
9�me du Zesbergenprijs Harelbeke.
12�me du Triptyque des Monts et Ch�teaux.
19�me du Tour de Li�ge.
20�me du M�morial Van Coningsloo.
10�me du Classement UCI Espoirs.
Scott
Classics won by riders 'like' Cav are not the same as classics won by
Cav. When he won his first true classic, no one except for maybe
himself and E. Zabel considered him a true threat to win it.
Scott
MSR is one of the 'classics', a true monument of cycling, regardless
of how you define the term or whether it's won in a field sprint or
from a small breakaway.
z
Zabel, being part of the Columbia team management, helped determine the
team decisions that set up Cav to contest the finish.
Cav was put on Columbia's MSR start list for one reason. If he wasn't
there to sprint at the end, he had absolutely no function on the team
that day.
If he wasn't designated to be there to sprint at the end, they would
have used him up earlier in the day by doing tactical riding for other
team members' benefit.
Amit Ghosh
> Amit Ghosh wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 12:48 pm, z <N...@not.ca> wrote:
>
> >> Dumbass,
>
> >> Boonen placed third in Paris-Roubaix in his first year as a pro. You
> >> don't get to contest the finish of a race like PR without being regarded
> >> as a classics threat.
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > you have to have some good placing before you are considered a threat.
> > not the other way around. at the time boonen was a top prospect, not
> > an actual classics star.
dumbass,
winning a bunch of espoirs races doesn't automatically make you a
senior star. it still took boonen a few years as a pro before he won a
classic.
z
So when you can't support your original statement you change it. Your
original statement said "classsics (sic) threat", not "senior star".
Saying he wasn't a senior star is stating the obvious and where did you
get the idea that you have to win a classics race to be considered a
classics threat?
What you think about the race doesn't change history. The USPS team
thought he was a threat for the race, otherwise he would have been
ordered to wait for Hincapie. And USPS weren't the only ones who
considered Boonen to be a threat:
"But as usual in Paris-Roubaix, the status quo didn't last long. Once
the riders hit pav� #8 in Merignies, a tough but short 700m section,
Museeuw took off and it looked like it was for good.
"I thought it was the right moment and so I went � I had a flash in my
head," said Museeuw, "is it too far? Because there were a lot of good
riders there � Hincapie, Tom Boonen..."
Donald Munro
> winning a bunch of espoirs races doesn't automatically make you a
> senior star. it still took boonen a few years as a pro before he won a
> classic.
And conversely there have been many who have won espoirs races but never
really made it with the big boys.
z
3/2/02 Het Volk 61st (two places behind Museeuw) @ 9:34, same bunch as
top USPS finisher (3 USPS finishers)
3/3/02 Kuurne-Bruxelles-Kuurne 7th @ 0:08, top USPS finisher (3 USPS
finishers)
Big gap, didn't see any other results for Boonen in March, and only
other results for USPS that month were at MSR. They didn't even race
Paris-Nice.
4/7/02 Tour of Flanders 24th @ 2:37, 2nd of 6 USPS finishers (Hincapie 4th)
4/10/02 Gent-Wevelgem 7th @ 1:29, 2nd of 7 USPS finishers (Hincapie 3rd)
Solid enough for team management to give him the green light to go on
after Hincapie crashed (though Hincapie was in excellent form leading
into the race).
Amit Ghosh
> So when you can't support your original statement you change it. Your
> original statement said "classsics (sic) threat", not "senior star".
> Saying he wasn't a senior star is stating the obvious and where did you
> get the idea that you have to win a classics race to be considered a
> classics threat?
dumbass,
hincapie didn't go into the season thinking he would be co-leader with
neo-pro boonen, whereas hoste was a guy who they took on and was
hoping to win a classic himself.
> What you think about the race doesn't change history. The USPS team
> thought he was a threat for the race, otherwise he would have been
> ordered to wait for Hincapie. And USPS weren't the only ones who
> considered Boonen to be a threat:
boonen was in an early break and when the leaders caught him hincapie
was getting gapped until he rode into a ditch. if the team was lotto
or columbia he probably would've been ordered to wait, since those
teams are tactically dumb, but if it was another usps rider in that
situation the same thing would have happened. it wasn't because they
put a magic star beside his name before the race.
Amit Ghosh
> Solid enough for team management to give him the green light to go on
> after Hincapie crashed (though Hincapie was in excellent form leading
> into the race).
dumbass,
okay you're right - they put a magic star beside his name. as you know
teams have no way to accommodate it when a domestique happens to be
having a good day or something. they also had a magic star for ekimov
and vanheeswijk and gusev so they also got the dispensation to not
wait for hincapie in a classic.
Amit Ghosh
> Zabel, being part of the Columbia team management, helped determine the
> team decisions that set up Cav to contest the finish.
>
> Cav was put on Columbia's MSR start list for one reason. If he wasn't
> there to sprint at the end, he had absolutely no function on the team
> that day.
>
> If he wasn't designated to be there to sprint at the end, they would
> have used him up earlier in the day by doing tactical riding for other
> team members' benefit.
dumbass,
when you're cavendish there is nothing to think about. he will spend
300 kms sitting in and trying to conserve energy, never trying to
launch an attack or bridge a gap. it is a boring way to race and it is
boring to watch. i feel sorry for his teammates that have to ride in
that negative, soul sucking style.
z
I'm trying to be civil with you, but you are not making it easy.
Was Cav a threat to win MSR (a classic)?
Yes, how he did it is irrelevant.
Case closed.
z
Amit,
Did Astana enter four riders in the 09 Tour that were capable of winning
the race (Tour threats, so to speak) or just one? How many of them
had won the tour before?
Was Andy Schleck a "Tour threat"? How many Tours (or Grand Tours for
that matter) has he won to date?
Obviously Hincapie was plan A for USPS that day, if not by ability then
by expected TV exposure. But not to the exclusion of everyone else on
the team. Boonen had the familiarity of the roads and arguably as good
of a record that early spring as anyone else on the team.
Don't lose the plot: Was Boonen a considered a threat to win PR? Yes.
Even Museeuw said so.
z
Look at it again. Museeuw -gap- Hincapie & Boonen -gap- Wesemann, et
al.
Hincapie was able to get out of the ditch and riding again before
Wesemann caught (and dropped) him, while Boonen who, as you said, had
been riding in front most of the day, was alone to chase Museeuw.
This isn't just "a good day" where a domestique is in a break all day
long to the finish. The team leader was out of the ditch and under way
before being caught by any chasing riders. USPS felt it was a better
thing for Boonen to ditch (if you will excuse the pun) team leader
Hincapie, though Hincapie was uncontested in third place at the time,
and let the "domestique" (as you refer to Boonen even though his pre PR
results obviously do not indicate domestique status) carry on solo to
the finish.
There is no rule saying that each team can only have one threat entered
per race.
A. Dumas
> The team leader was out of the ditch and under way
> before being caught by any chasing riders. USPS felt it was a better
> Hincapie, though Hincapie was uncontested in third place at the time,
> the finish.
I feel quite sure that this was a decision by Tommeke on the road, not
by the team.
Amit Ghosh
dumbass,
you're right. boonen - a neopro who hadn't even ridden the pro
versions of any of those races was a "threat" to win some classics
just like andy schleck was a tdf threat as a first year pro five years
ago - museeuw even said so after the race (but not before) and riders
who don't have the magic star aren't allowed to ride in the finale by
their team management.
":Boonen placed third in Paris-Roubaix in his first year as a pro.
You
don't get to contest the finish of a race like PR without being
regarded
as a classics threat. "
you're right, re-reading what you wrote makes perfect sense. being
"regarded as a threat" lets you finish 3rd in your first paris-roubaix
and not the other way around.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<amit....@gmail.com> wrote:
>when you're cavendish there is nothing to think about. he will spend
>300 kms sitting in and trying to conserve energy, never trying to
>launch an attack or bridge a gap. it is a boring way to race and it is
>boring to watch. i feel sorry for his teammates that have to ride in
>that negative, soul sucking style.
Just as with the Cippo days, such a race is still made by those that
have to avoid a Cav finish or Cippo finish. Any race that does not
provide another team with ample opportunities to break up a Cavendish
dash or a Cippo train is not a classic. If the course provides those
opportunities and the other teams make no attempt to prevent a set-up
sprint finish, then blame the other teams. If, OTOH, the other teams
make repeated attempts to break up the sprint finish and they fail and
Cavendish or Cippo have it their way, then give credit where credit is
due.
A classic isn't a classic purely on how the race finishes.
Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
cur...@the-md-russells.org
>Even Museeuw said so.
Muesseuw, OTOH, felt that...
Amit Ghosh
> On Thu, 24 Dec 2009 11:30:48 -0800 (PST), Amit Ghosh
>
> >when you're cavendish there is nothing to think about. he will spend
> >300 kms sitting in and trying to conserve energy, never trying to
> >launch an attack or bridge a gap. it is a boring way to race and it is
> >boring to watch. i feel sorry for his teammates that have to ride in
> >that negative, soul sucking style.
>
> Just as with the Cippo days, such a race is still made by those that
> have to avoid a Cav finish or Cippo finish. Any race that does not
> provide another team with ample opportunities to break up a Cavendish
> dash or a Cippo train is not a classic. If the course provides those
> opportunities and the other teams make no attempt to prevent a set-up
> sprint finish, then blame the other teams. If, OTOH, the other teams
> make repeated attempts to break up the sprint finish and they fail and
> Cavendish or Cippo have it their way, then give credit where credit is
> due.
>
> A classic isn't a classic purely on how the race finishes.
>
dumbass,
i agree, a bunch finish is a sign that the non-sprinters failed to (or
decided not to in the case of flat stages) do their job.
i know a 'classic' in cycling has meant a certain race that has a long
history, but the reason that the spring classics have the reputation
that they have is because they are selective races that involve
individual effort - as opposed to soft pedaling in the bunch
Michael Press
<64eeafb3-300e-42db...@m11g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
bar <barba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 23, 8:47 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 22, 7:45 pm, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I didn't realize they were both on BMC now ... it'll be like Tommeke
> > > v. Boonen from a few years ago ... poor George (well not really);
> > > Kroon's just a better classics rider ...
> >
> > dumbass,
> >
> > kroon ? he's good on some terrain, but he's not a guy that wins
> > races.
>
> i'm not sure Kroon's ever been given a solid shot at winning ...
> hasn't he always ridden for someone else? if they let him ride, i
> think we'll see something.
_Let_ him ride? Guys who win races do not wait on permission;
they're bastards.
>
> > i don't think the boonen and hincapie comparison is apt since when
> > they were both on US postal boonen had yet to be considered a
> > classsics threat. i think a better comparison is hincapie and hoste on
> > postal.
>
> yes, that's better. but still ... Ballan is a former world champ,
> former RVV (toughest race outside of RAAM) winner, and has been on the
> podium at P-R. Why would BMC ride for anyone but him in the
> classics? Hincapie's gonna spend the year fetching water.
--
Michael Press
Scott
>
> _Let_ him ride? Guys who win races do not wait on permission;
> they're bastards.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Press
Michael,
Can you give us any instances, aside from Contador's stupid attack
that shed his sole teammate that day in the '09 TdF where a rider rode
against his director's instructions and went on to win?
thx
Amit Ghosh
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you give us any instances, aside from Contador's stupid attack
> that shed his sole teammate that day in the '09 TdF where a rider rode
> against his director's instructions and went on to win?
>
> thx
dumbass,
it happens a lot.
also, contador's attack wasn't stupid - why shouldn't he attack to
gain more time ? kloden wasn't actually doing anything for him in the
break.
Michael Press
<1743c49b-a080-4d23...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Scott <hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 1:18 am, Michael Press <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > _Let_ him ride? Guys who win races do not wait on permission;
> > they're bastards.
>
> Michael,
>
> Can you give us any instances, aside from Contador's stupid attack
> that shed his sole teammate that day in the '09 TdF where a rider rode
> against his director's instructions and went on to win?
>
> thx
No, I cannot, though I am sure it occurs; as am I sure
that a director's permission is sometimes granted ex
post facto. Better to beg forgiveness than ask
permission. Works for me, but I do not win races. Heh.
I think that Contador's attack that you speak of was
not thoroughly thought through; that it is too bad
Bruyneel lost the chance to put three team mates on the
podium; that Contador had the right idea; that the
attack was as much directed at Bruyneel as anyone; that
Contador established what he wanted in accordance with
my thesis.
--
Michael Press
Scott
Really, happens a lot? Name one.
ronaldo_jeremiah
Stephen Roche, Giro d'Italia.
Eddy Merckx, Tour of Flanders - allegedly told his own director to
fuck himself.
There are plenty of other examples.
-rj
Scott
wrote:
Okay, dumbass... I wasn't clear enough before, so let's try again in
the modern era of DS-control of every aspect of the race via radio.
ronaldo_jeremiah
FWIW, both examples I gave you involved directors speaking directly to
their riders.
Disregarding orders is potentially easier in the radio era, because
one can always claim that the radio didn't work.
Your point was that winning riders don't go against team orders. But
sometimes they do.
-rj
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
All three of your points are correct, especially the second one.
Anyone remember Ullrich pulling out his earpiece? That happens more
often than that but the vast majority of the time it's not captured on
video.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Scott
Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
don't wait for permission, whereas in reality riders acting on
instinct, or in direct contravention to orders, are very rare these
days. Of course I understand that it happens, but the exercise of
trying to name examples reinforces the idea that it doesn't happen
very often.
ronaldo_jeremiah
> Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
> don't wait for permission,
You know, that's funny, because what you said was "Can you give us any
instances... where a rider rode
against his director's instructions and went on to win?" You went on
to demand a single one.
I gave you not one, but two examples where famous riders won major
races in this way. I did this off the top of my head.
You should admit that you were wrong.
-rj
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
wrote:
Dumbass -
Benjo could undoubtedly add quite a few more.
bjwe...@gmail.com
Selection effect. Generally, if a rider disobeys DS orders
and goes on to win the race, the DS isn't going to stand
around afterwards saying "That dumbass, I told him to wait!"
He's going to say "The kid said he had good legs today so
I had him go for it once we got him into a break," or
some such comment that shows you how tactically
astute the DS supposedly is.
Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing, as was said by
the guy they named the Tour of Lombardy after.
Ben
Scott
wrote:
Wasn't wrong. Neither were you. You didn't understand the point of
my asking the question. But, you tried to tell me what my point was,
and I explained why I asked M Press to give me an example. Like I
said before, I understand that it happens. I just don't believe it
happens all that often these days. Key words: these days.
Amit Ghosh
>
> Really, happens a lot? Name one.
dumbass,
there are times when i'm watching a race and i'm wondering what is
going on - like flecha leading the chasing behind langeveld (and
haussler) in this years het volk (whatever it's called now) so i have
to assume that things aren't going according to plan.
in the contador case i don't think he actually "disobeyed" team orders
- that is just armstrong's selfish take on it.
this usually doesn't get documented often but here is one case from
this year:
"The mandate was clear," said Sports Director Jean-Paul van Poppel.
"Make the race hard, go in the breakaways and get somebody in the
break who could help Carlos at the end. Same strategy as yesterday.
Today the boys did well again, we had Serge in the breakaway 16 km
from the start and he did a marvellous job, ending up with Bertagnolli
at the top of the last climb.At that time, Basso had escaped and
Carlos asked Serge to wait. Of course this is something that happens
hundreds of times a year in cycling, nothing special. In fact, a
little earlier Basso had his teammate Stangelj drop back from Serge’s
breakaway to help him. Maybe Serge didn't understand, but we let him
know a couple of times that he really had to wait. Unfortunately Serge
didn’t stop at the top of the last climb, as he was told.
----
if you watched the giro you know what happened, but this is a case
where the director is openly telling the press that the rider
disobeyed an order - which rare.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
>don't wait for permission, whereas in reality riders acting on
>instinct, or in direct contravention to orders, are very rare these
>days. Of course I understand that it happens, but the exercise of
>trying to name examples reinforces the idea that it doesn't happen
>very often.
<shrug> With communications as they are nowadays, as opposed to the
Merckx days or Roche, all that would mean to me is that in most cases
what the DS sends to the most likely winning riders would be in accord
with what the rider needs to do to win and in most cases that the
rider did not agree, they would assume the DS had more/better
information and conform. After training and prep races, the DS and the
likely winning riders should be close enough to the same wave length
that the situations that would cause that kind of disagreement would
be relatively rare. And then you winnow those down by the cases where
the DS gets on board, doesn't scream so loud everyone knows what
happened, and modifies his instructions quickly enough that the
disagreement is papered over. So the cases that a rider is a potential
winner with better information than the DS and a willingness to go on
his own and then for us to know that is what happened are, yeah, rare.
ronaldo_jeremiah
> On Dec 27, 7:36 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 8:29 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
> > > don't wait for permission,
>
> > You know, that's funny, because what you said was "Can you give us any
> > instances... where a rider rode
> > against his director's instructions and went on to win?" You went on
> > to demand a single one.
>
> > I gave you not one, but two examples where famous riders won major
> > races in this way. I did this off the top of my head.
>
> > You should admit that you were wrong.
>
> > -rj
>
> Wasn't wrong.
Dumbass -
I didn't expect you'd be able to do it.
-rj
Scott
wrote:
> On Dec 27, 9:54 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 7:36 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 27, 8:29 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
> > > > don't wait for permission,
>
> > > You know, that's funny, because what you said was "Can you give us any
> > > instances... where a rider rode
> > > against his director's instructions and went on to win?" You went on
> > > to demand a single one.
>
> > > I gave you not one, but two examples where famous riders won major
> > > races in this way. I did this off the top of my head.
>
> > > You should admit that you were wrong.
>
> > > -rj
>
> > Wasn't wrong.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I didn't expect you'd be able to do it.
>
> -rj
I don't expect that you'd understand that sometimes you ask someone a
question, not because you want an answer, but you want the person to
think about the answer.
ronaldo_jeremiah
> On Dec 28, 7:43 am, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 9:54 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 27, 7:36 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 27, 8:29 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
> > > > > don't wait for permission,
>
> > > > You know, that's funny, because what you said was "Can you give us any
> > > > instances... where a rider rode
> > > > against his director's instructions and went on to win?" You went on
> > > > to demand a single one.
>
> > > > I gave you not one, but two examples where famous riders won major
> > > > races in this way. I did this off the top of my head.
>
> > > > You should admit that you were wrong.
>
> > > > -rj
>
> > > Wasn't wrong.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > I didn't expect you'd be able to do it.
>
> > -rj
>
> question, not because I want an answer, but because I want the person to
> think about the answer.
I fixed it.
-rj
Scott
Scott
Oh, and I don't want an answer. I want you to think about it.
ronaldo_jeremiah
I must've really hurt you, bro.
Tom Kunich
news:10e78baf-1691-428d...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...> > I fixed it.
>
> Is that your best comeback?
Maybe you haven't noticed a distinct lack of intelligence on this group?
Scott
Annoy is a better way to describe it.
ronaldo_jeremiah
> "Scott" <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Stop that. You're going to break my irony meter.
Donald Munro
>> Maybe you haven't noticed a distinct lack of intelligence on this group?
ronaldo_jeremiah wrote:
> Stop that. You're going to break my irony meter.
If its a carbon one its likely to explode without warning.
Tom Kunich
news:us7n07-...@donaldm.homeip.net...
And another comment complaining about the visual that two other riders
witnessed and described to me. I suppose they didn't really see what they
saw but the posters here are much smarter than the people actually there.
ronaldo_jeremiah
> "Donald Munro" <n...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
Schwartz -
The language module is fragmenting. Can you do something about this?
He's hard enough to understand when he's working "properly."
-rj
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass -
It's most likely to explode when it's got minimum, static load.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> "Donald Munro" <n...@mailinator.com> wrote in message
Dumbass -
You are correct, the people here are much smarter than anyone who
would hang out with you.
Donald Munro
> The language module is fragmenting. Can you do something about this?
> He's hard enough to understand when he's working "properly."
Understandable if he was made from lugged washing machine parts.
Bob Schwartz
Dumbass,
He's operating as designed.
Bob Schwartz
Howard Kveck
"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Eyewitness testimony is the weakest.
--
tanx,
Howard
Caught playing safe
It's a bored game
remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Michael Press
<5c7c49a8-1d7e-4688...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Scott <hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 6:19 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> On Dec 27, 6:59 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 27, 5:06 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Dec 27, 3:28 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:59 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 27, 10:51 am, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Michael,
>>
>>>>>>> Can you give us any instances, aside from Contador's stupid attack
>>>>>>> that shed his sole teammate that day in the '09 TdF where a rider rode
>>>>>>> against his director's instructions and went on to win?
>>
>>>>>>> thx
>>
>>>>>> dumbass,
>>
>>>>>> it happens a lot.
>>
>>>>>> also, contador's attack wasn't stupid - why shouldn't he attack to
>>>>>> gain more time ? kloden wasn't actually doing anything for him in the
>>>>>> break.
>>
>>>>> Really, happens a lot? Name one.
>>
>>>> Stephen Roche, Giro d'Italia.
>>
>>>> Eddy Merckx, Tour of Flanders - allegedly told his own director to
>>>> fuck himself.
>>
>>>> There are plenty of other examples.
>>
>>> the modern era of DS-control of every aspect of the race via radio.
>>
>> FWIW, both examples I gave you involved directors speaking directly to
>> their riders.
>>
>> Disregarding orders is potentially easier in the radio era, because
>> one can always claim that the radio didn't work.
>>
>> Your point was that winning riders don't go against team orders. But
>> sometimes they do.
>
> don't wait for permission, whereas in reality riders acting on
> instinct, or in direct contravention to orders, are very rare these
> days. Of course I understand that it happens, but the exercise of
> trying to name examples reinforces the idea that it doesn't happen
> very often.
Scott, as I said, I cannot give examples. My conviction
arises from how I achieve whatever small successes I do;
and that is through breaking the rules sometimes, though
not in the name of rebellion. Rather, in order to take the
next step into the unknown, to assume a risk based on nothing
more than a sense of appropriateness, and in the face of
the consequences of failure. Hence, I am sure that highly
successful athletes decide from time to time to ignore
team orders and chart their own course.
--
Michael Press
Scott
> In article
> <5c7c49a8-1d7e-4688-83ca-3635ff741...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
I understand. I am, or was, the king of selective neglect, otherwise
known as 'better to beg forgiveness than ask permission'.
Michael Press
"Tom Kunich" <tku...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Read this. It is available on the world wide web as a PDF file.
Kruger, Justin; David Dunning [1999].
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 77 (6): 1121–34.
--
Michael Press
heather
a situation not likely to occur around here...
h
William Asher
480492...@e37g2000yqn.googlegroups.com:
Yeah, everyone here is pretty dynamic when they're loaded, right up until
the point they throw up on their Sidis and pass out.
--
Bill Asher
Donald Munro
>> Schwartz -
>> The language module is fragmenting. Can you do something about this?
>> He's hard enough to understand when he's working "properly."
Bob Schwartz wrote:
> He's operating as designed.
That's what ITM said about his fork.
cur...@the-md-russells.org
<hendric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I understand. I am, or was, the king of selective neglect, otherwise
>known as 'better to beg forgiveness than ask permission'.
Nine out of ten husbands subscribe to this theory, consciously or not.
The tenth is separated...
Robert Chung
> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing, as was said by
> the guy they named the Tour of Lombardy after.
Vince Tour?
William Asher
I think you mean Benny Of.
--
Bill "ending a sentence on a preposition" Asher
Scott
> On Dec 27, 4:28 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Really, happens a lot? Name one.
>
>
> there are times when i'm watching a race and i'm wondering what is
> going on - like flecha leading the chasing behind langeveld (and
> haussler) in this years het volk (whatever it's called now) so i have
> to assume that things aren't going according to plan.
>
Can you not imagine a scenario where it makes the most sense to have a
teammate leading the chase? If so, can you describe the scenario?
(note: not rhetorical questions, and not intended merely for you to
think about your previous comments. I'm actually looking for an
answer here.)
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
wrote:
> On Dec 27, 9:29 pm, Scott <hendricks_sc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 6:19 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > FWIW, both examples I gave you involved directors speaking directly to
> > > their riders.
>
> > > Disregarding orders is potentially easier in the radio era, because
> > > one can always claim that the radio didn't work.
>
> > > Your point was that winning riders don't go against team orders. But
> > > sometimes they do.
>
>
> > Actually, my point was to refute M Press' contention that winners
> > don't wait for permission, whereas in reality riders acting on
> > instinct, or in direct contravention to orders, are very rare these
> > days. Of course I understand that it happens, but the exercise of
> > trying to name examples reinforces the idea that it doesn't happen
> > very often.
>
> and goes on to win the race, the DS isn't going to stand
> around afterwards saying "That dumbass, I told him to wait!"
> He's going to say "The kid said he had good legs today so
> I had him go for it once we got him into a break," or
> some such comment that shows you how tactically
> astute the DS supposedly is.
>
> Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing, as was said by
> the guy they named the Tour of Lombardy after.
Dumbass -
Tour of Lombardi.
Scott
Thanks. Now it all makes sense.
Amit Ghosh
> > dumbass,
>
> > there are times when i'm watching a race and i'm wondering what is
> > going on - like flecha leading the chasing behind langeveld (and
> > haussler) in this years het volk (whatever it's called now) so i have
> > to assume that things aren't going according to plan.
>
> Can you not imagine a scenario where it makes the most sense to have a
> teammate leading the chase? If so, can you describe the scenario?
> (note: not rhetorical questions, and not intended merely for you to
> think about your previous comments. I'm actually looking for an
> answer here.)
dumbass,
i think you mean "can i imagine ... "
this situation was discussed here last spring. langeveld and haussler
were away and it seemed like flecha (langeveld's teammate) was chasing
them down. why ? maybe the team didn't think langeveld's odd of
winning were good - but i think it's poor form and a waste of energy
to send a rider in a break and then chase that break.
a big reason to have a rider in a break is that you don't have an
obligation to chase.
Scott
There are other, legitimate reasons to chase a break containing one of
your own team. Try again.