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Re: Signs of progress
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Frank Krygowski
Jul 28, 2012, 11:39:30 AM7/28/12
to
(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Dan O:
>>
>>
>> ... from a progressive city:
>>
>> http://bikeportland.org/2012/07/26/pbot-set-to-roll-out-new-20-mph-signs-74891
>
> In the areas I drive, nobody.... that is *NOBODY* drives at the
> speed limit.
>
> Ok, occasionally one sees somebody that is either obviously
> impaired and/or is driving a defective vehicle... but that's 1 on
> a thousand.
>
> The slowest drivers are holding 5 mph over the posted limit.
>
> That being the case, it seems to me like what they really want
> there is 15 mph limits.
Seems to me that speed limit signs wouldn't work as well as traffic
calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
grief while cycling.
Anybody here with more experience with them?
--
- Frank Krygowski
> Per Dan O:
>>
>>
>> ... from a progressive city:
>>
>> http://bikeportland.org/2012/07/26/pbot-set-to-roll-out-new-20-mph-signs-74891
>
> In the areas I drive, nobody.... that is *NOBODY* drives at the
> speed limit.
>
> Ok, occasionally one sees somebody that is either obviously
> impaired and/or is driving a defective vehicle... but that's 1 on
> a thousand.
>
> The slowest drivers are holding 5 mph over the posted limit.
>
> That being the case, it seems to me like what they really want
> there is 15 mph limits.
Seems to me that speed limit signs wouldn't work as well as traffic
calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
grief while cycling.
Anybody here with more experience with them?
--
- Frank Krygowski
(PeteCresswell)
Jul 28, 2012, 2:04:33 PM7/28/12
to
Per Frank Krygowski:
On speed bumps, a little cut that will allow passage of a bicycle
tire is a nice touch. I don't know if that is the intended
purpose, but I do see them.
Anything where the vehicle has to pass within N inches of some
object seems to have a significant slowing-down effect on motor
vehicles.
Dunno what N is, but I have seen strategically-placed large (as
in containing a small tree) planters that worked well.
The ones I saw were staggered left/right so distance N would be
on the driver's side for one planter and the passenger side for
the next planter.
Thinking there would be pix of this all over the place, I Googled
a bit... but was surprised to come up empty.
--
Pete Cresswell
>Seems to me that speed limit signs wouldn't work as well as traffic
>calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
>years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
>around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
>quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
>grief while cycling.
>
>Anybody here with more experience with them?
My limited experience supports yours.
>calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
>years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
>around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
>quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
>grief while cycling.
>
>Anybody here with more experience with them?
On speed bumps, a little cut that will allow passage of a bicycle
tire is a nice touch. I don't know if that is the intended
purpose, but I do see them.
Anything where the vehicle has to pass within N inches of some
object seems to have a significant slowing-down effect on motor
vehicles.
Dunno what N is, but I have seen strategically-placed large (as
in containing a small tree) planters that worked well.
The ones I saw were staggered left/right so distance N would be
on the driver's side for one planter and the passenger side for
the next planter.
Thinking there would be pix of this all over the place, I Googled
a bit... but was surprised to come up empty.
--
Pete Cresswell
Dan O
Jul 28, 2012, 2:36:34 PM7/28/12
to
already relatively calm, "Neighborhood Greenways". I think the
objective is to institutionalize and maintain / further this
character. I for one am just pleased to see the city using its
authority specifically for the stated objective of making streets more
hospitable for bicyclists, in specific oppostion to the inclination of
the car culture.
I don't like speed bumps. Trees are nice.
Message has been deleted
Joe Riel
Jul 28, 2012, 4:14:50 PM7/28/12
to
Phil W Lee <ph...@lee-family.me.uk> writes:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
> Humps and chicanes lead to drivers swerving around endangering more
> vulnerable road users.
> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
Why swerve for a speed bump? The ones I've seen go completely across
the road; anything else would ludicrous. They do seem more effective
than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
them more if I lived near one.
--
Joe Riel
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
> vulnerable road users.
> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
Why swerve for a speed bump? The ones I've seen go completely across
the road; anything else would ludicrous. They do seem more effective
than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
them more if I lived near one.
--
Joe Riel
Jay Beattie
Jul 28, 2012, 4:50:23 PM7/28/12
to
bike culture. Actually, I don't hate the car culture that much,
because on ordinarily designed roads, I don't have that much
interaction with cars while riding a bike. On the east side, however,
there is this "we're Amsterdam" thing going and the notion that there
have to be quasi-separate routes for bikes (still a mix of cars and
bikes}:
http://www.streetfilms.org/portlands-bike-boulevards-become-neighborhood-greenways/
When I ride over there, I make an effort to avoid the bicycle avenues,
except where they offer the shortest route (which is rare). I'd rather
take the direct route, and take my chances with the traffic.
-- Jay Beattie.
(PeteCresswell)
Jul 28, 2012, 9:11:02 PM7/28/12
to
Per Jay Beattie:
city of Shanghai a bunch of years ago.
One day he was at a presentation (in English) by a bunch of
Australians on proposed solutions for their transportation
infrastructure.
Their push was for preserving the then-current overwhelming use
of bicycles.
During the presentation, one of the old hands in the traffic end
of things kept muttering something in Mandarin during the
presentation.
When it was all over, one of the Australian guys was asking what
was up with the malcontent.
Nobody wanted to tell him but it eventually came out what the guy
was saying: "You guys are so full of shit!... Have you ever
*had* to go *everywhere* on a bicycle?".
--
Pete Cresswell
>I hate the car culture until I have to drive a car. Then I hate the
>bike culture.
A close family member is an engineer who used to work for the
>bike culture.
city of Shanghai a bunch of years ago.
One day he was at a presentation (in English) by a bunch of
Australians on proposed solutions for their transportation
infrastructure.
Their push was for preserving the then-current overwhelming use
of bicycles.
During the presentation, one of the old hands in the traffic end
of things kept muttering something in Mandarin during the
presentation.
When it was all over, one of the Australian guys was asking what
was up with the malcontent.
Nobody wanted to tell him but it eventually came out what the guy
was saying: "You guys are so full of shit!... Have you ever
*had* to go *everywhere* on a bicycle?".
--
Pete Cresswell
Wes Groleau
Jul 28, 2012, 11:33:40 PM7/28/12
to
On 07-28-2012 14:04, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> On speed bumps, a little cut that will allow passage of a bicycle
> tire is a nice touch. I don't know if that is the intended
> purpose, but I do see them.
All the ones I've seen, the cut is for rain drainge, and it's smack in
> On speed bumps, a little cut that will allow passage of a bicycle
> tire is a nice touch. I don't know if that is the intended
> purpose, but I do see them.
the very center of the street!
--
Wes Groleau
He that complies against his will is of the same opinion still.
— Samuel Butler, 1612-1680
Dan O
Jul 29, 2012, 1:08:16 AM7/29/12
to
essential, and the entirety of our surface transportation
infrastructure (save for train tracks) are *for* cars (and obviously
they are!... Damn it!... well, but maybe [just *maybe*] not so much
anymore and going forward in Portland, Eugene, Corvallis... )
> Then I hate the
> bike culture.
comments on BTA blog site? I'm surprised they still let me post.)
> Actually, I don't hate the car culture that much,
> because on ordinarily designed roads, I don't have that much
> interaction with cars while riding a bike.
inevitably have to deal with it, I make myself scarce... separate.
> On the east side, however,
> there is this "we're Amsterdam" thing going and the notion that there
> have to be quasi-separate routes for bikes (still a mix of cars and
> bikes}:
>
are elements in the US ahead of even them; just elements, though - and
they're marginalized and eschewed when not outrightly disdained by the
mainstream glorious violent conquest (god and football / support our
troops / 12 guns a minute sold legally / a Hummer in every driveway /
etc.) culture.
> http://www.streetfilms.org/portlands-bike-boulevards-become-neighborh...
>
I didn't click it, but imagine it will say, "click here to download
the plugin". Anyway I've seen a lot of crazy shit from the ground,
and don't doubt you're right that it's messed up. Oh well. I don't
want to direct traffic. Maybe that's what make me so "what the hell I
might as well go for it".
> When I ride over there, I make an effort to avoid the bicycle avenues,
> except where they offer the shortest route (which is rare). I'd rather
> take the direct route, and take my chances with the traffic.
>
ride bike), but now that I'm getting back in shape, and since Ride
Bike is shaping up to be what I've got to live for, and there are *so*
many places to go...
James
Jul 29, 2012, 7:10:23 PM7/29/12
to
On 29/07/12 05:16, Phil W Lee wrote:
> Frank Krygowski<frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
> 2012 11:39:30 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>
> Frank Krygowski<frkrygo...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
> 2012 11:39:30 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>
> Humps and chicanes lead to drivers swerving around endangering more
> vulnerable road users.
> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
I agree. There's a rail crossing on my regular route, and nearby a
> vulnerable road users.
> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
school. The road was wide enough that cars could pass bikes (even two
abreast bikes) without a problem. To give the pedestrians somewhere
else to cross (even though there is a pedestrian crossing with lights
just 100 yards up the road opposite the school), the road designers
added a traffic island. Now there is not enough room for one bike to
share the lane with a car, going passed that island.
When the island was first added to the road in particular, numerous
times a car would start to pass and then see the keep left sign and
island (this is at night) and panic brake next to me before swerving in
behind me to avoid running into the sign.
Oh yeah, I felt soooo much safer with that island being there.
--
JS.
Message has been deleted
Joe Riel
Jul 29, 2012, 11:40:14 PM7/29/12
to
> To avoid the unpleasant "corkscrewing" effect of going over it any
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
They put speed bumps at an angle in the road? Someone should be fired
for that. There is one in a parking lot around here---I don't
believe it was intentional but the result of a weird layout.
The rolling effect is extremely unpleasant even when barely moving.
--
Joe Riel
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
They put speed bumps at an angle in the road? Someone should be fired
for that. There is one in a parking lot around here---I don't
believe it was intentional but the result of a weird layout.
The rolling effect is extremely unpleasant even when barely moving.
--
Joe Riel
Dan O
Jul 29, 2012, 11:51:54 PM7/29/12
to
On Jul 29, 7:48 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:14:50 -0700
>
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
sometimes drop the shoulder strap on my messenger bag if it bounces on
my back, and have to restore it.
> > The ones I've seen go completely across
> >the road; anything else would ludicrous.
>
> Many are indeed ludicrous!
I hit one the other day caught me by surprise - a short one with no
paint and dark asphalt - didn't even see it. Not a big deal (hit
worse bumps occasionally), but disconcerting. I do appreciate that
they're more effective slowing cagers than they are me, so there's
that.
> Joe Riel <j...@san.rr.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:14:50 -0700
> the perfect time to write:
>
>
>
> >Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> writes:
>
>
>
>
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@gEEmail.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul
> >> 2012 11:39:30 -0400 the perfect time to write:
>
> >>>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> >>>> Per Dan O:
>
> >>>>> ... from a progressive city:
>
> >>>>>http://bikeportland.org/2012/07/26/pbot-set-to-roll-out-new-20-mph-si...
>
> >>>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> >>>> Per Dan O:
>
> >>>>> ... from a progressive city:
>
>
> >>>> In the areas I drive, nobody.... that is *NOBODY* drives at the
> >>>> speed limit.
>
> >>>> Ok, occasionally one sees somebody that is either obviously
> >>>> impaired and/or is driving a defective vehicle... but that's 1 on
> >>>> a thousand.
>
> >>>> The slowest drivers are holding 5 mph over the posted limit.
>
> >>>> That being the case, it seems to me like what they really want
> >>>> there is 15 mph limits.
>
> >>>Seems to me that speed limit signs wouldn't work as well as traffic
> >>>calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
> >>>years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
> >>>around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
> >>>quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
> >>>grief while cycling.
>
> >>>Anybody here with more experience with them?
>
> >> Humps and chicanes lead to drivers swerving around endangering more
> >> vulnerable road users.
> >> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> >> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
>
> >Why swerve for a speed bump?
>
> >>>> In the areas I drive, nobody.... that is *NOBODY* drives at the
> >>>> speed limit.
>
> >>>> Ok, occasionally one sees somebody that is either obviously
> >>>> impaired and/or is driving a defective vehicle... but that's 1 on
> >>>> a thousand.
>
> >>>> The slowest drivers are holding 5 mph over the posted limit.
>
> >>>> That being the case, it seems to me like what they really want
> >>>> there is 15 mph limits.
>
> >>>Seems to me that speed limit signs wouldn't work as well as traffic
> >>>calming devices like, say, speed humps. As discussed around here in
> >>>years past, they seem to work in a couple residential neighborhoods
> >>>around here that used to suffer from fast cut-through traffic. And I saw
> >>>quite a few similar things recently in France. They didn't cause me any
> >>>grief while cycling.
>
> >>>Anybody here with more experience with them?
>
> >> Humps and chicanes lead to drivers swerving around endangering more
> >> vulnerable road users.
> >> Cameras (particularly the average speed variety) are better by far,
> >> and are quickly paid for by voluntary contribution :)
>
> >Why swerve for a speed bump?
>
> To avoid the unpleasant "corkscrewing" effect of going over it any
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
>
I go around them if I can, otherwise bunny hop them, but then I
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
>
sometimes drop the shoulder strap on my messenger bag if it bounces on
my back, and have to restore it.
> > The ones I've seen go completely across
> >the road; anything else would ludicrous.
>
>
> > They do seem more effective
> >than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
> >not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
> >years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
> >them more if I lived near one.
>
> Lots around here, of many different designs.
> > They do seem more effective
> >than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
> >not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
> >years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
> >them more if I lived near one.
>
I hit one the other day caught me by surprise - a short one with no
paint and dark asphalt - didn't even see it. Not a big deal (hit
worse bumps occasionally), but disconcerting. I do appreciate that
they're more effective slowing cagers than they are me, so there's
that.
(PeteCresswell)
Jul 30, 2012, 9:24:21 AM7/30/12
to
Per Joe Riel:
I'd take it beyond "extremely unpleasant" and call it dangerous.
First time I hit it (at walking speed), my head got snapped
against the window post.
--
Pete Cresswell
>They put speed bumps at an angle in the road? Someone should be fired
>for that. There is one in a parking lot around here---I don't
>believe it was intentional but the result of a weird layout.
>The rolling effect is extremely unpleasant even when barely moving.
They did that at the entrance to the local YMCA.
>for that. There is one in a parking lot around here---I don't
>believe it was intentional but the result of a weird layout.
>The rolling effect is extremely unpleasant even when barely moving.
I'd take it beyond "extremely unpleasant" and call it dangerous.
First time I hit it (at walking speed), my head got snapped
against the window post.
--
Pete Cresswell
Frank Krygowski
Jul 30, 2012, 11:44:37 AM7/30/12
to
Phil W Lee wrote:
> Joe Riel<jo...@san.rr.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:14:50 -0700
There's no question that some have been misapplied, and many have
detriments that need to be understood. You want someone competent to be
doing the design work, as usual. Overall, though, I like the concept.
As I said, there are places I know that have used speed humps (not the
much sharper speed bumps) very effectively in residential neighborhoods.
They've cause no trouble at all on my bike, but they have greatly
slowed both the speed and the frequency of cut-through traffic, where
occasional radar enforcement had failed. The residents love them.
--
- Frank Krygowski
> Joe Riel<jo...@san.rr.com> considered Sat, 28 Jul 2012 13:14:50 -0700
> To avoid the unpleasant "corkscrewing" effect of going over it any
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
>
> anything other than exactly 90 degrees, or to put at least one track
> of the car through any gaps or drainage channels that may be there.
>
>> The ones I've seen go completely across
>> the road; anything else would ludicrous.
>
> Many are indeed ludicrous!
>> the road; anything else would ludicrous.
>
>> They do seem more effective
>> than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
>> not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
>> years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
>> them more if I lived near one.
>
>> than a sign/fine for reducing the effective speed limit, however, I'm
>> not wild about them. There were a few on a commute I cycled for a few
>> years and riding over them was a minor nuisance. I might appreciate
>> them more if I lived near one.
>
> Lots around here, of many different designs.
There are lots of different design elements used for traffic calming.
There's no question that some have been misapplied, and many have
detriments that need to be understood. You want someone competent to be
doing the design work, as usual. Overall, though, I like the concept.
As I said, there are places I know that have used speed humps (not the
much sharper speed bumps) very effectively in residential neighborhoods.
They've cause no trouble at all on my bike, but they have greatly
slowed both the speed and the frequency of cut-through traffic, where
occasional radar enforcement had failed. The residents love them.
--
- Frank Krygowski
Wes Groleau
Jul 31, 2012, 7:32:17 PM7/31/12
to
(and unused railroad tracks) were invisible. I was cruising along
comfortably. Suddenly my bike flew several yards sideways, and I kept
going straight _many_ yards on my butt.
--
Wes Groleau
Heroes, Heritage, and History
http://UniGen.us/webtrees
Tom $herman (-_-)
Aug 18, 2012, 5:07:28 PM8/18/12
to
On 7/30/2012 10:44 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>[...]
by standing up, and enjoy the noise of the tailgating car/truck
suspension bottoming out. :)
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
>[...]
> As I said, there are places I know that have used speed humps (not the
> much sharper speed bumps) very effectively in residential neighborhoods.
> They've cause no trouble at all on my bike, but they have greatly
> slowed both the speed and the frequency of cut-through traffic, where
> occasional radar enforcement had failed. The residents love them.
>
I love speed humps because I can take them full speed on a scooter just
> much sharper speed bumps) very effectively in residential neighborhoods.
> They've cause no trouble at all on my bike, but they have greatly
> slowed both the speed and the frequency of cut-through traffic, where
> occasional radar enforcement had failed. The residents love them.
>
by standing up, and enjoy the noise of the tailgating car/truck
suspension bottoming out. :)
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Message has been deleted
Dan O
Aug 19, 2012, 11:59:33 AM8/19/12
to
On Aug 18, 10:02 pm, Phil W Lee <p...@lee-family.me.uk> wrote:
> "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
> And the poor schmuck following the truck runs straight into it's load?
Schmuck is right.
> "Tom $herman (-_-)" <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">
Schmuck is right.
Tom $herman (-_-)
Aug 19, 2012, 2:26:39 PM8/19/12
to
Although in this case, truck is generally a pick-em-truck not carrying
anything in the bed.
GDS
Oct 6, 2012, 10:07:51 AM10/6/12
to
At least around here, Tucson, AZ, the fire and police departments really lobby against speed bumps/humps. They believe it makes it more difficult for them to drive fast over them in emergency situations.
On a bike my experience has been that speed humps (broad with a shallow rise) do not disturb a bike at all while speed bumps (narrow with a sharp rise) are really bad at all but the slowest of speeds.
On a bike my experience has been that speed humps (broad with a shallow rise) do not disturb a bike at all while speed bumps (narrow with a sharp rise) are really bad at all but the slowest of speeds.
cycl...@gmail.com
Nov 11, 2012, 7:35:29 PM11/11/12
to
On Saturday, July 28, 2012 10:08:16 PM UTC-7, Dan O wrote:
>
> When I say, "car culture", I'm talking about the sense that cars are
> essential, and the entirety of our surface transportation
> infrastructure (save for train tracks) are *for* cars (and obviously
> they are!... Damn it!... well, but maybe [just *maybe*] not so much
> anymore and going forward in Portland, Eugene, Corvallis... )
>
>
> When I say, "car culture", I'm talking about the sense that cars are
> essential, and the entirety of our surface transportation
> infrastructure (save for train tracks) are *for* cars (and obviously
> they are!... Damn it!... well, but maybe [just *maybe*] not so much
> anymore and going forward in Portland, Eugene, Corvallis... )
>
> Culture Schmulture - let 'em have it. (Have you read my prolific
> comments on BTA blog site? I'm surprised they still let me post.)
>
> comments on BTA blog site? I'm surprised they still let me post.)
>
> I am definitely inclined to avoid traffic - even where it exists and I
> inevitably have to deal with it, I make myself scarce... separate.
>
> inevitably have to deal with it, I make myself scarce... separate.
>
> The most progressive societies in the world are in Europe, but there
> are elements in the US ahead of even them; just elements, though - and
> they're marginalized and eschewed when not outrightly disdained by the
> mainstream glorious violent conquest (god and football / support our
> troops / 12 guns a minute sold legally / a Hummer in every driveway /
> etc.) culture.
Dan, if you think that Europe is so advanced why don't you move over there and get a direct view of it instead of reading BS about it?
> are elements in the US ahead of even them; just elements, though - and
> they're marginalized and eschewed when not outrightly disdained by the
> mainstream glorious violent conquest (god and football / support our
> troops / 12 guns a minute sold legally / a Hummer in every driveway /
> etc.) culture.
A husband and wife, both "highly paid" engineers in Sweden can maybe afford a THREE ROOM CONDO. Most people including families have a single room condo.
I'm sure that you'd like that since your medical care is almost free.
Here you have interactions with cars. Plenty of people I ride with hate that. But it doesn't bother me hardly at all. Why? Because you have roughly the same problems with another car. So you just be careful and polite and almost all the other motorists do as well. Though I admit there are days when I'm cussing out drivers myself.
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