facing the traffic old laws
TerryJ
cyclists that made cycling against the flow the usual practice.
Can anyone here either give me an account of this or direct me to a
source of information, please?
TerryJ
UK
Jobst Brandt
I think you are asking the wrong question of this newsgroup. If the
road is narrow and a bicyclist rides opposing traffic, oncoming cars
must make a full stop and wait for the bicyclist to make way. If the
bicyclist travels with traffic, cars would need only to slow and pass
when opposing traffic made it safe to do so.
The "ride against traffic" advice comes from impractical theoreticians
whose arguments appear in this newsgroup often. Among these are the
"take the lane" folks who believe that this is the way to avoid
rear-end collisions when riding on curvy roads. That is a sure way of
enraging motorists who don't need to be told that a bicyclist is a
higher life form than a motorist.
Be practical and don't worry about riding on the "wrong" side of the
street if you do it with care and caution so that other road users
don't get the impression that the bicyclist believes he has higher
priority than others.
Jobst Brandt
dgk
I don't think he was advocating it, just researching it.
I wish joggers would decide which side to run on. 90% run on the right
side, and 10% run on the left (USA).
TerryJ
> >Be practical and don't worry about riding on the "wrong" side of the
> >street if you do it with care and caution so that other road users
> >don't get the impression that the bicyclist believes he has higher
> >priority than others.
>
> >Jobst Brandt
>
> I don't think he was advocating it, just researching it.
>
> I wish joggers would decide which side to run on. 90% run on the right
> side, and 10% run on the left (USA).
I am absolutely not advocating it. It sounds terrifying.
However there might have been some logic to it in the days when all
the traffic was going relatively slowly and a motor vehicle was
encountered rarely , especially away from the cities.
there are still some people who do it in London. They are generally
held in low esteem.
I just wanted to know where and when such a practice was the official
recommendation.
I read in two American sites the author saying that he had been taught
to cycle against the traffic but that is no longer the law.
I think one of them was written by Frank but cannot remember which
page . There was no more detail there anyway.
TerryJ
uk
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> I just wanted to know where and when such a practice was the official
> recommendation.
> I read in two American sites the author saying that he had been taught
> to cycle against the traffic but that is no longer the law.
> I think one of them was written by Frank but cannot remember which
> page . There was no more detail there anyway.
I don't know of any place it was ever an official recommendation, and
I certainly don't recall saying so.
My earliest recollection of the issue was in about 1960 or so, riding
with three friends in a suburban neighborhood. We argued and split 2
vs. 2 on whether we were supposed to ride with traffic or facing
traffic. I was one of the two riding with traffic.
It's certainly true, however, that lots of American parents still tell
their kids to ride facing traffic. In my area, it seems to have
gotten better over the years, but I still occasionally encounter
entire families riding against traffic.
- Frank Krygowski
Ron Wallenfang
Here's what The Wisconsin DOT says about it and related issues:
"General rules
Ride at least three feet from the curb or parked vehicles or debris in
curb area and in a straight line.
Don't swerve in and out around parked vehicles.
Always ride in the same direction as traffic.
Sidewalk riding for bicyclists past the learning stage and being
closely supervised by adults can be more dangerous than on the road,
obeying traffic laws. It is also illegal unless the community has
passed an ordinance specifically permitting sidewalk riding. This can
be age-restricted, location-restricted or based on the type of
property abutting the sidewalk.
Obey all traffic laws.
Be predictable! Let other users know where you intend to go and
maintain an understood course.
Narrow lanes
Ride in the center of the lane.
Keep at least three feet between yourself and passing or parked
traffic.
Wide lanes
Ride just to the right of the actual traffic line, not alongside the
curb.
Keep at least three feet between yourself and the curb or from parked
vehicles. Motorists should be passing you with at least 3 feet of
clearance.
Don't get the door prize!
Ride in a straight line three feet out from parked cars. You'll avoid
car doors that open in front of you and you'll be more visible to
other drivers.
Don't pull into the space between parked cars. Ride just to the right
of the actual traffic line, not alongside the curb.
Ride straight, three feet from parked cars - don't get "doored"
Take the lane
You will fare better with other road users if you function like a
legal vehicle operator, which you are.
Right turning motorists can be a problem, but taking the lane or more
of the right portion of the wide curb lane can prevent this. Take an
adult bicycling course to learn skills and develop confidence in
traffic.
Left turning motorists are the cause of most adult bicyclists’
crashes. Motorists claim not to see the cyclist who is traveling in a
straight path in the opposite direction. [ N.B. THIS HAPPENED TO ME
IN 2003 - Ron]
Bicyclists, when making your own left turn look over your left
shoulder for traffic, signal your left turn and change lanes smoothly,
so you are to the left side or center of the through lane by the time
you reach the intersection. If a left turn lane is present, make a
lane change to center of that lane. Do not move to left of that lane
as left-turning motorists may cut you off.
Do not wait until you reach the crosswalk, then stop and try to ride
from a stop across other traffic. If you need to cross as a
pedestrian, leave the travel lanes, then get into the crosswalk,
walking or riding your bicycle like a pedestrian travels, not fast,
and with pedestrian signals.
Lane positioning can be especially important in approaching a downhill
intersection. Moving to the center makes you more visible to
intersecting and left turning motorists in opposing lanes.
Going downhill, your speed is likely to be closer to traffic speeds or
posted speed limits. Hugging the curb when there are visual barriers
increases your chance to be struck by a bigger vehicle, or of hitting
a pedestrian or sidewalk riding bicyclist.
Take the lane, be seen and see other traffic better if you are close
to traffic speeds
TerryJ
> Going downhill, your speed is likely to be closer to traffic speeds or
> posted speed limits. Hugging the curb when there are visual barriers
> increases your chance to be struck by a bigger vehicle, or of hitting
> a pedestrian or sidewalk riding bicyclist.
> Take the lane, be seen and see other traffic better if you are close
> to traffic speeds
this is fine stuff but not the historical weirdness I was looking for.
Perhaps there was never any official advice to ride on the left.
TerryJ
Jeremy Parker
"TerryJ" <jon...@breathe.com> wrote in message
news:8d2f5437-8eb3-4a80...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
I wish I could, I've wondered about it for years.
When I came to the USA, to Washington DC, from the UK in 1963, I was
astonished to be told by everybody in my office that one was supposed
to ride the "wrong way", with lots of jokes about Britain driving on
the left etc. A few days later I picked up a leaflet about cycling
from a rack of DC Dept of Motor Vehicles leaflets on various
subjects, on display at my local post office.
The cycling leaflet talked, much to my relief, about following the
normal vehicle laws, which left me just as astonished that the entire
population was apparently so ignorant about cycling that they didn't
even know which side of the road to ride on.
I asked Phyllis Harmon about this once. She was a leading member of
the LAW from, I think, before WW II, and after she became less active
was given the position of the LAW's historian. She was from Chicago.
All she said was that she thought that the idea had grown up in the
1950s. It sounded as though nobody had ever told her personally that
she ought to ride on the left
It sounded to me though that it was an almost universal teaching
among "bicycle safety experts" of the 1950s that one should ride the
wrong way, like a pedestrian, presumably so that, in case of
emergency you could jump into a hedge, like a pedestrian..
This seems to have been true not just in the USA, but Canada too, and
maybe parts of Latin America too.
I asked John Forester about it once. He came to the USA just before
WW II,, so would have spent his teens growing up in the war years in
California. He apparently never heard of the left riding idea in
California, where there seems to have been a continuous bike culture,
even if it was at a low ebb, from the bike boom of the 1930s
From hearing about the Uniform Vehicle Code, it never adopted, wrong
way riding, and maybe they never even thought about it. Bikes were
considered, I think, just before WW II, and then never considered
again until Davis California (riding on the right) invented bike
lanes in 1967, and wanted various changes to California law to
accommodate them
This is all rather vague,.and likely inaccurate, too. I do hope some
people know more
Jeremy Parker
Peter Cole
I think there was plenty of advice (and still is) to walk or run facing
traffic. My impression is that novice cyclists sometimes just carry this
advice over to cycling. For those who ride at walking/jogging speed it
doesn't seem to make much difference.
Pat
You wouldn't have said that if you had been in my car early the other
morning, in the FOG, and all of a sudden there was a cyclist coming straight
at me in my lane!
Pat in TX
Frank Krygowski
>
>
> I think there was plenty of advice (and still is) to walk or run facing
> traffic.
Which makes sense. The main difference, of course, is that a
pedestrian can hop three feet sideways almost instantaneously.
Cyclists can't.
> My impression is that novice cyclists sometimes just carry this
> advice over to cycling. For those who ride at walking/jogging speed it
> doesn't seem to make much difference.
It does make a difference! Riding facing traffic is a leading cause
of serious car/bike crashes!
- Frank Krygowski
Peter Cole
I think the correlation/causality issue might be very difficult to prove.
John Thompson
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> It does make a difference! Riding facing traffic is a leading cause
>> of serious car/bike crashes!
> I think the correlation/causality issue might be very difficult to prove.
Perhaps so, but due to the higher collision velocity of a head-on with a
wrong-way cyclist, any accident that does occur is likely to be more
serious.
--
-John (jo...@os2.dhs.org)
Joy Beeson
> You wouldn't have said that if you had been in my car early the other
> morning, in the FOG, and all of a sudden there was a cyclist coming straight
> at me in my lane!
How about a peloton of marathon runners? No fog, and it was twenty or
thirty years ago, but I'm still shaking.
There is quite a lot of very emphatic advice that walkers and runners
face traffic, and it's almost as daft as riding into traffic. Once I
stepped onto the shoulder of a road to walk around the windbreak
between my house and the high school, and a deputy stopped to inform
me that I must cross a state road twice rather than walk ten feet near
the right edge!
I walk on the left when I plan to YIELD RIGHT OF WAY TO ABSOLUTELY
EVERYTHING THAT COMES ALONG.
Some people can't get out of the road, some roads nobody can get out
of, and some runners refuse to break their rhythm no matter what.
Whether by will or necessity, if you are going to throw all
responsibility for your non-squashed condition onto drivers, you
should be walking, running, or hobbling *with* the traffic, to give
each driver an extra split second to see and avoid you.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Simon Lewis
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:29:09 -0500, "Pat" <newi...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> You wouldn't have said that if you had been in my car early the other
>> morning, in the FOG, and all of a sudden there was a cyclist coming straight
>> at me in my lane!
>
> How about a peloton of marathon runners? No fog, and it was twenty or
> thirty years ago, but I'm still shaking.
>
> There is quite a lot of very emphatic advice that walkers and runners
> face traffic, and it's almost as daft as riding into traffic. Once I
It makes perfect sense to walk into traffic.
Humans are very sensitive to eye contact.
You can see the oncoming traffic.
As a walker you are close enough to the kerb/hedge.
You are more agile than a cyclist.
Jeremy Parker
"Jeremy Parker" <Jeremy...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:gElCm.25134$XR1....@newsfe26.ams2...
>
> "TerryJ" <jon...@breathe.com> wrote in message
> news:8d2f5437-8eb3-4a80...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
>>I have heard that at least some states used to have laws or advice
>>to
>> cyclists that made cycling against the flow the usual practice.
>>
>> Can anyone here either give me an account of this or direct me to
>> a
>> source of information, please?
>
> I wish I could, I've wondered about it for years.
[snip]
Following up my previous post, my guess is = and it is only a guess -
that the "road safety" community of traffic engineers, DMV people,
law enforcement people etc never endorsed wrong way riding. Whether
they heard of it, discussed it, and specifically rejected it would be
interesting to know.
Associated with the above community would be the AAA, who developed
such ideas as bike roadeos etc. While these were generally useless,
and occasionally mildly wrongheaded, they never endorsed, so far as I
know, wrong way riding
The Boy Scouts have long had a cycling merit badge. That was
reasonable too. The American Youth Hostels Association also ran bike
trips when almost nobody else did. They too know how to do it right.
However, the wrong way idea was widespread enough that there must
have been some community of "safety experts" who spread the wrong way
idea, with a journal to circulate ideas and so forth.
It must have been some group convinced it had a mission to tell
children what to do, even though they didn't have a clue themselves,
and were so ignorant that they didn't even know that they were
ignorant. Some teachers' group perhaps? Phys' Ed Teachers? Nurses?
This is all speculation, of course. Again, anyone who knows more,
please tell us
Jeremy Parker
Peter Cole
Yes, obviously. My point is that the advice is often given to runners,
and slow bicyclists are pretty equivalent in speed, at least almost all
the wrong-way riders I've seen ride very slowly. My guess is that the
wrong-way cyclists don't come from the high-skill, high-experience end
of the spectrum.
Jeremy Parker
"Joy Beeson" <jbe...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:5vqnd5hvq1kdp0dn1...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:29:09 -0500, "Pat" <newi...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
>> You wouldn't have said that if you had been in my car early the
>> other
>> morning, in the FOG, and all of a sudden there was a cyclist
>> coming straight
>> at me in my lane!
>
> How about a peloton of marathon runners? No fog, and it was twenty
> or
> thirty years ago, but I'm still shaking.
It was nearly sixty years ago here in Britain, and it wasn't marathon
runners, it was a column of marching sea cadets, at night, that had a
car plough into them. Several were killed, and more injured. After
the subsequent enquiry and so forth the existing "face traffic" rule
in Britain's "Highway Code" was changed. It now reads:
Rule 2 If there is no pavement [i.e. sidewalk] keep to the right
[Britain drives on the left] -hand side of the road so that you can
see oncoming traffic. You should take extra care and
*be prepared to walk in single file, especially on narrow roads or in
poor light
*keep close to the side of the road
It may be safer to cross the road well before a sharp right-hand bend
so that oncoming traffic has a better chance of seeing you. Cross
back after the bend
Rule 5 Organised walks. large groups of people walking together
should use a pavement if available; if one is not they should keep to
the left. Look-outs should be positioned at the front and back of
the group, and they should wear fluorescent clothes in daylight and
reflective clothes in the dark. At night the look-out in front
should show a white light and the one at the back a red light.
People on the outside of large groups should also carry lights and
wear reflective clothing.
Jeremy Parker
Frank Krygowski
> My point is that the advice is often given to runners,
> and slow bicyclists are pretty equivalent in speed, at least almost all
> the wrong-way riders I've seen ride very slowly. My guess is that the
> wrong-way cyclists don't come from the high-skill, high-experience end
> of the spectrum.
In general, a runner (even one moving at 15 mph) is much more agile
and maneuverable than a cyclist, particularly a novice cyclist. Any
middle school football kid can cut left far faster than I can do it on
my bike. And the kinds of people who ride bikes at - what? - 10 mph
are far less capable of emergency maneuvers than I am. They can't
sidestep to avoid a collision, so they should not be permitted to ride
facing traffic.
Also, keep in mind that the most common crash resulting from wrong way
riding involves a driver pulling out, making a right turn exit from a
side street or parking lot. Those drivers typically look to their
left, not right, because nobody should be approaching above walking
speed from the right. In that scenario, the cyclist is right in front
of the car when it pulls out. There's not much the cyclist can do at
that point.
I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
- Frank Krygowski
Peter Cole
I agree with the hazards. I just feel that they're roughly the same. I'm
not attempting to give anything legitimacy, the very idea of that makes
me laugh.
Ron Wallenfang
>....... keep in mind that the most common crash resulting from wrong way
> riding involves a driver pulling out, making a right turn exit from a
> side street or parking lot. Those drivers typically look to their
> left, not right, because nobody should be approaching above walking
> speed from the right. In that scenario, the cyclist is right in front
> of the car when it pulls out. There's not much the cyclist can do at
> that point.
>
> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
I agree and then some. Across the street from the Milwaukee Art
Museum, a parking lot exit crosses the Oak Leaf recreation path as it
heads north from downtown. The path is parallel to Lincoln Memorial
Drive, on which the exiting traffic is turning, and this parking lot
driveway is the last grade crossing for 5 miles. The light is usually
red for those exiting the lot, and the bike path" "walk" light is
usually on. Nevertheless, right turning cars notoriously look only to
the left, planning to turn right as soon as the right lane is clear of
southbound auto traffic, and are usually oblivious to northbound
bikes on the recreation trail. It's a real hazard that I've learned
to treat with the greatest of respect, notwithstanding my annoyance
with the inattentive auto drivers. At least in that situation, the
drivers ought to be aware of the recreation trail. For bikes going
the wrong way on the traffic lane, the hazard is all the greater.
Joy Beeson
<simonle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are more agile than a cyclist.
The old lady in the mobility scooter isn't. The young mother with her
baby firmly strapped into a jogging stroller isn't.
The lane-wide bunch of racers running flat out aren't.
The "walk left" propaganda reads "disengage brain and keep left no
matter what." And it never mentions the part where you get out of the
way; merely seeing the approaching vehicle somehow protects you.
The "walk into traffic" campaign is promoted officially, and with
sufficient vigor to spill over into all non-motorized travel -- and
into some motorized travel.
Pat
> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
I agree. I do think that the idea of wrong-way riding is a carryover from
wrong-way walking. As for the "slower riders" idea, well, they are also the
ones least likely to be able to hold their line. I see slow riders
(especially children) wobbling all over the place and this is extremely
dangerous in automobile traffic lanes.
Pat in TX
Simon Lewis
I find it incredulous that anyone would suggest wrong way riding on the
same road.
Bill Baka
>> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
And I think it is bad policy to ride on the right with no bike lane at
all and semis coming by in 5 truck trains.
>
> I agree. I do think that the idea of wrong-way riding is a carryover from
> wrong-way walking.
It has saved me more than once to ride on the left out on a country
road. No bike lanes at all unless you consider a stripe and 3" of
pavement to be a lane.
And *NO* you do NOT take the lane from these guys.
As for the "slower riders" idea, well, they are also the
> ones least likely to be able to hold their line. I see slow riders
> (especially children) wobbling all over the place and this is extremely
> dangerous in automobile traffic lanes.
>
> Pat in TX
>
>
Pat,
Are you actually in the city? I live in a relatively rural area with no
sidewalks (only in town where the stores are), and barely a bike lane in
sight. In the new construction area they are putting insanely large bike
lanes in the 25 MPH zones but not on the 35-55 MPH zones.
????????
Bill Baka
Frank Krygowski
> Pat wrote:
> >> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
>
> >> - Frank Krygowski
>
> And I think it is bad policy to ride on the right with no bike lane at
> all and semis coming by in 5 truck trains.
Out of curiosity, what does the lack of a bike lane have to do with
it?
- Frank Krygowski
Bill Baka
Why don't you get your pompous ass over here and show me how to take the
lane from semi's going as fast as they can. You would be simply road
kill. Riding the wrong way gives me a chance to see if I had better get
off the bike and get close to the ditch. *Ditch* as in NOT a sidewalk.
Bill Baka
Pat
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> I agree. I do think that the idea of wrong-way riding is a carryover
>> from wrong-way walking. As for the "slower riders" idea, well, they
>> are also the ones least likely to be able to hold their line. I see
>> slow riders (especially children) wobbling all over the place and
>> this is extremely dangerous in automobile traffic lanes.
>>
>> Pat in TX
>
I find it incredulous that anyone would suggest wrong way riding on
> the same road.
For what it's worth, the first I heard of this was from an old German woman.
She said that she knew it was wrong, but she taught her children to ride on
the wrong side of the road anyway, since she figured they could see the
danger better.
<shrug>
Pat
Pat
Yes, I'm in a city. A city which has more people in it than the whole of
Alaska . But, according to a column in this month's Bicycling magazine, when
you ride the wrong way on your bike you are breaking the law. Well, we knew
that! But, this is important because it stated that breaking the law
abrogates your insurance policy. If you get hurt while breaking the law, the
insurance company doesn't have to pay.
Since you mention sidewalks, I find that the newer sections of town do not
have them. In town, the 35-55 mph lanes are always wider than two lanes. So,
I right on the right and the cars change lanes to pass me and then change
back again.
Besides having no legal recourse because you are breaking the law riding on
the wrong side of the street, you are also training car drivers to think of
bikes as toys instead of vehicles. That doesn't help any of us. I have
ridden on the county roads in Texas where there are not any bike lanes.
Everybody has moved over to pass. I do not think "they won't let me!"
because they always DO let me ride in the right lane. These aren't
homicidal maniacs--they're just people like everyone else.
Pat in TX
Pat
Sorry, but you're not believable. We've all ridden on roads with semi
trailers and none of us has been killed. Those drivers are ordinary people,
not Freddy Kruger! The difference is, we ride on those roads without a
problem and you are scared to do so, so you break the law and try to justify
your actions. After they pass me, I always wave as soon as I can see the
driver in the rear-view mirror. I rode on Hwy 69/75 in Oklahoma without any
problem, too. There is something of a shoulder there, but the backwash from
the trucks can be fierce. The drivers always moved over to give me a break,
knowing that they brought with them a backwash. All of them moved over.
Nobody was dangerous or a maniac.
Conquer your fears, Bill.
Pat in TX
Peter Cole
> Besides having no legal recourse because you are breaking the law riding on
> the wrong side of the street, you are also training car drivers to think of
> bikes as toys instead of vehicles. That doesn't help any of us. I have
> ridden on the county roads in Texas where there are not any bike lanes.
> Everybody has moved over to pass. I do not think "they won't let me!"
> because they always DO let me ride in the right lane. These aren't
> homicidal maniacs--they're just people like everyone else.
>
> Pat in TX
>
>
Didn't Lance get run off the road in Texas?
He seems to like bike lanes now:
http://bikefriendlyoc.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/lance-armstrong-loves-bike-lanes/
Bill Baka
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 1:46 pm, Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Pat wrote:
>>>>>> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way
>>>>>> riding. - Frank Krygowski
>>>> And I think it is bad policy to ride on the right with no bike lane
>>>> at all and semis coming by in 5 truck trains.
>>> Out of curiosity, what does the lack of a bike lane have to do with
>>> it?
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> Getting run over by 6 semis isn't enough?
>> Why don't you get your pompous ass over here and show me how to take
>> the lane from semi's going as fast as they can. You would be simply
>> road kill. Riding the wrong way gives me a chance to see if I had
>> better get off the bike and get close to the ditch. *Ditch* as in NOT
>> a sidewalk.
>> Bill Baka
>
> Sorry, but you're not believable.
Sorry, I don't care about believable or not since here I sit, now a ripe
old 61.
We've all ridden on roads with semi
> trailers and none of us has been killed. Those drivers are ordinary people,
> not Freddy Kruger!
This is California and they get the cheapest drivers they can and pay
them by the load so they haul ass to get back to the quarry and get
another load.
The difference is, we ride on those roads without a
> problem and you are scared to do so, so you break the law and try to justify
> your actions.
Me scared? Yeah, right. As for those laws I am breaking, many of them
were made by people who probably never rode a bicycle in their lives.
I have had a motorcycle way over 160 MPH with no helmet. I figured if I
crashed at that speed a helmet wouldn't do much good. Combing out my
hair was the hardest part of one of those blasts.
I used to race motorcycles, non-professionally, on both high speed
tracks and dirt track ovals, not to mention the occasional hill climb,
fall, try again. Kind of like 1968 when I was visiting the Winchester
brothers down by L.A. We all got drunk and tried to break a horse with
an attitude problem. All of us also got several faces full of horse shit
when we got thrown off.
No shit!
After they pass me, I always wave as soon as I can see the
> driver in the rear-view mirror.
I have you there. I get to wave and smile.
I rode on Hwy 69/75 in Oklahoma without any
> problem, too. There is something of a shoulder there, but the backwash from
> the trucks can be fierce. The drivers always moved over to give me a break,
> knowing that they brought with them a backwash. All of them moved over.
> Nobody was dangerous or a maniac.
You must have some really picky cops and laws because that is not the
case in California.
>
> Conquer your fears, Bill.
What fears? I am just riding the way my brain tells me is the safest.
I don't fear death but the thought of a rest home keeps me riding and
not acting my age. There was a rest home that I used to stop by if
someone was out getting some air. I chatted it up with some of the
residents while thinking "Not me, not ever.". They are now closed due to
financial problems. I will either go out attacking a hill, doing my
50/100/200 yard sprints, or falling off a cliff while rock climbing.
Dying in my sleep would be so embarrassing.
>
> Pat in TX
>
>
Bill Baka in California.
Dan C
> Bill Baka wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 1:46 pm, Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Pat wrote:
>>>>>> I think it's bad policy to give any legitimacy to wrong-way riding.
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> And I think it is bad policy to ride on the right with no bike lane
>>>> at all and semis coming by in 5 truck trains.
>>>
>>> Out of curiosity, what does the lack of a bike lane have to do with
>>> it?
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>> Getting run over by 6 semis isn't enough?
>> Why don't you get your pompous ass over here and show me how to take
>> the lane from semi's going as fast as they can. You would be simply
>> road kill. Riding the wrong way gives me a chance to see if I had
>> better get off the bike and get close to the ditch. *Ditch* as in NOT a
>> sidewalk.
>> Bill Baka
>
> Sorry, but you're not believable.
Very little of what Bill_the_Blowhard says is believable. He's full of
hot air (and other stuff), and just can't resist spewing it out here in
public, in a feeble attempt to boost his poor self-esteem. He doesn't
fool many folks, as his bullshit is easily detected.
> Conquer your fears, Bill.
It's more a case of stupidity than it is fear.
--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he garotted another passing Liberal.
Usenet Improvement Project: http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/
Dan C
>> Sorry, but you're not believable.
>
> Sorry, I don't care about believable or not since here I sit, now a ripe
> old 61.
You should care. Everyone just laughs at your bullshit.
> We've all ridden on roads with semi
>> trailers and none of us has been killed. Those drivers are ordinary
>> people, not Freddy Kruger!
>
> This is California and they get the cheapest drivers they can and pay
> them by the load so they haul ass to get back to the quarry and get
> another load.
Yeah, OK. Caleeeforneea is somehow different than anywhere else in the
known universe, when it comes to truck drivers. Right.
> The difference is, we ride on those roads without a
>> problem and you are scared to do so, so you break the law and try to
>> justify your actions.
>
> Me scared? Yeah, right. As for those laws I am breaking, many of them
> were made by people who probably never rode a bicycle in their lives. I
> have had a motorcycle way over 160 MPH with no helmet.
Sure you have, Bill. Yeah. Why don't you tell us the story (again)
about how you race downhill on a bicycle, with your legs splayed out
horizontally behind you (for aerodynamics) at speeds in excess of 55mph,
with Semi-trucks right on your ass, trying to run you over? We'd all
love to hear that one again...
>> Conquer your fears, Bill.
>
> What fears? I am just riding the way my brain tells me is the safest.
Your "brain" is the source of your Stupid, Bill. Once you finally
realize that, you'll actually be safer.
> I will either go out attacking a hill, doing my 50/100/200
> yard sprints, or falling off a cliff while rock climbing. Dying in my
> sleep would be so embarrassing.
Nope, you'll die of heart failure, or a stroke, like most other eldery
men who fantasize about being Tarzan in their old age.
Hopefully soon. Now bugger off, you bag-o-hotair. You're not fooling
anyone.
Pat
Sure, isolated incidents will happen. But, they are few and far between and
not representative of all the drivers in a particular state. You don't
believe that semitrailer drivers in California actually run down and kill
cyclists on a daily basis, right?
Pat in TX
Peter Cole
In general I don't know how you distinguish between incompetence,
negligence and malevolence, unless the driver's actions are so blatant
as to remove doubt or their subsequent communication expresses intent
(how's that for delicate phrasing).
I don't know what the relative incident rates are from state-to-state,
so I'd hate to generalize. Some studies have indicated that drivers
involved in fatal bike accidents have much worse driving records. The
problem is that fatalities are infrequent enough (thankfully) that
gathering statistics is difficult. A lot of people fear the "struck from
behind" case, and rightly so, given its lethality. I think the most
difficult aspect of it is that there is really nothing the cyclist can
do to absolutely avoid it, unlike most of the other collision modes.
Hence the appeal to placebos like wrong-way riding. Placing faith in the
universal goodness or competence of drivers is another placebo, but
perhaps one with less serious side effects. If nothing else, a certain
percentage of drivers passing you are drunk.
Bill Baka
> Pat wrote:
>> Peter Cole wrote:
>>> Pat wrote:
>>>
>>>> Besides having no legal recourse because you are breaking the law
>>>> riding on the wrong side of the street, you are also training car
>>>> drivers to think of bikes as toys instead of vehicles. That doesn't
>>>> help any of us. I have ridden on the county roads in Texas where
>>>> there are not any bike lanes. Everybody has moved over to pass. I do
>>>> not think "they won't let me!" because they always DO let me ride in
>>>> the right lane. These aren't homicidal maniacs--they're just people
>>>> like everyone else. Pat in TX
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Didn't Lance get run off the road in Texas?
>>>
>>> He seems to like bike lanes now:
>>>
>>> http://bikefriendlyoc.wordpress.com/2009/06/02/lance-armstrong-loves-bike-lanes/
>>>
>>
>> Sure, isolated incidents will happen. But, they are few and far
>> between and not representative of all the drivers in a particular
>> state. You don't believe that semitrailer drivers in California
>> actually run down and kill cyclists on a daily basis, right?
>>
>> Pat in TX
???????????
We have some idiot drivers around here but hardly homicidal.
I did have to bail earlier this year and I am damned glad I was on the
wrong side. A new Muni bus was driving with the right wheels in the
middle of the bike lane. Even when I bailed and he had to have seen me,
he still stayed in the bike lane. Legally riding I would not be alive to
bug you about wrong way riding.
Simple enough or do I need to post a picture?
>>
>
> In general I don't know how you distinguish between incompetence,
> negligence and malevolence, unless the driver's actions are so blatant
> as to remove doubt or their subsequent communication expresses intent
> (how's that for delicate phrasing).
In my case it is just too many semi's on a construction project and when
they get to 5 in a row drafting each other to get a little better
mileage it gets hairy.
>
> I don't know what the relative incident rates are from state-to-state,
> so I'd hate to generalize. Some studies have indicated that drivers
> involved in fatal bike accidents have much worse driving records. The
> problem is that fatalities are infrequent enough (thankfully) that
> gathering statistics is difficult. A lot of people fear the "struck from
> behind" case, and rightly so, given its lethality. I think the most
> difficult aspect of it is that there is really nothing the cyclist can
> do to absolutely avoid it, unlike most of the other collision modes.
> Hence the appeal to placebos like wrong-way riding. Placing faith in the
> universal goodness or competence of drivers is another placebo, but
> perhaps one with less serious side effects. If nothing else, a certain
> percentage of drivers passing you are drunk.
And people wonder why I ride wrong way when there is no bike lane.
I guess I will have to use my web site to post pictures of some of the
roads/trails I ride. I could make a whole chapter out of my rides to my
private waterfall. Nobody knows it is there and the trail requires
biking, hiking, and dragging the bike up slate covered pieces of non-trail.
Bill Baka
Simon Lewis
Bill Baka
> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>> And people wonder why I ride wrong way when there is no bike lane.
>> I guess I will have to use my web site to post pictures of some of the
>> roads/trails I ride. I could make a whole chapter out of my rides to my
>> private waterfall. Nobody knows it is there and the trail requires
>> biking, hiking, and dragging the bike up slate covered pieces of non-trail.
>>
>> Bill Baka
>
> Do you ever tire of making shit up?
>
What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
point presentation for you.
Bill Baka
Bill Sornson
>> And people wonder why I ride wrong way when there is no bike lane.
>> I guess I will have to use my web site to post pictures of some of
>> the roads/trails I ride. I could make a whole chapter out of my
>> rides to my private waterfall. Nobody knows it is there and the
>> trail requires
>> biking, hiking, and dragging the bike up slate covered pieces of
>> non-trail.
>>
>> Bill Baka
> Do you ever tire of making shit up?
Does a zebra tire of its stripes? Does a camel tire of spitting? Does
HWNMNBM tire of being a liar, goon and hypocrite?
Bill "Iron Bill Baka: The Legend Lives" S.
--
"We aren't ready for a black, even half black, that much is true.
We better never be ready for a Hispanic or we are doomed.
A woman will get in sooner or later, as will a half-black."
-- Bill Baka
Simon Lewis
Bill Baka
> Simon Lewis wrote:
>
>> Do you ever tire of making shit up?
>
> Does a zebra tire of its stripes? Does a camel tire of spitting? Does
> HWNMNBM tire of being a liar, goon and hypocrite?
>
> Bill "Iron Bill Baka: The Legend Lives" S.
Shit,
I'll use my website to post some pictures, then I'll dare anyone to ride
with me.
I made that offer last year and no takers.
Bike, hike, swimming hole, 55 MPH downhills, and all.
It's a standing offer to all who ride a bike, and has been for 2 years.
The days are too short this year but come next summer it will still be
an offer.
Bill Baka
Simon Lewis
55 mph downhills? LOL. You're so full of shit I'd be surprised if you
didn't get stuck to the tar before you reached 5 mph.
Bill Baka
non-trail. I hit the swimming hole on the way back and wade in clothes
and all then undress and wring out my clothes. At least I can get
un-sweaty after the hardest part of the ride. There is a pond/swimming
hole at the bottom of the water fall but enough people have drowned
there, there is a fence around it, and I don't want to get sucked into
the waterfall.
It is hidden enough that I can't even find it on Mapquest or Google
Earth. The location is about 10 miles east of Beale AFB.
The waterfall itself is a double falling first to a rock plateau, then
the pond. I think some of the fatalities were from trying to jump off
the top and hitting the rocks.
It is a nice place to relax but a road bike would be hopelessly useless
on that terrain.
Bill Baka
Bill Baka
>> I'll use my website to post some pictures, then I'll dare anyone to ride
>> with me.
>> I made that offer last year and no takers.
>> Bike, hike, swimming hole, 55 MPH downhills, and all.
>> It's a standing offer to all who ride a bike, and has been for 2 years.
>> The days are too short this year but come next summer it will still be
>> an offer.
>>
>> Bill Baka
>
> 55 mph downhills? LOL. You're so full of shit I'd be surprised if you
> didn't get stuck to the tar before you reached 5 mph.
>
>
>
and no takers. The 55 MPH was actually about 57 MPH but I was too busy
watching out for my ass I didn't see the readout except for passing 55.
That is a ride down a main road with a 55 MPH speed limit and it is steep.
If I want any shit from you I will squeeze your head.
Bill Baka
Bill Sornson
POST THE PICS, IRON BILL! (And while you're at it, scan the arrest report
of Little Billy Baka bustin' 50 mph on his trike at age 4! ROTFL )
Bill Sornson
Tears...rolling...down...face.
Bill "I thought you plonked me, Ernest T. Baka" S.
Dan C
Let's see the pics, Bill. Quit talking shit and post the pics.
Dan C
Look asshole, post the pics. You offered to do it, now *do* it.
Dan C
Post the pics, Bill. Do it now.
Dan C
> Simon Lewis wrote:
>> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>> What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
>>> nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
>>> point presentation for you.
>>>
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> Do you have to go through a wardrobe to get there?
>>
> Not a whole change but Levis come in handy on some parts of the
> non-trail. I hit the swimming hole on the way back and wade in clothes
> and all then undress and wring out my clothes. At least I can get
> un-sweaty after the hardest part of the ride. There is a pond/swimming
> hole at the bottom of the water fall but enough people have drowned
> there, there is a fence around it, and I don't want to get sucked into
> the waterfall.
Wow, I didn't know that waterfalls can suck you in. Are you sure about
that, Bill? Really sure?
By the way, the "wardrobe" question above had nothing to do with changing
clothes. A wardrobe is also a piece of furniture. It has to do with a
recent popular movie... See if you can figure it out, dummy.
Post the pics, Bill.
Simon Lewis
Is it true you also broke the sound barrier when you cycled down the
north face of Mount Everest where you'd mountain biked to the top to see
a rare orchid?
Simon Lewis
> Simon Lewis wrote:
>> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>> What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
>>> nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
>>> point presentation for you.
>>>
>>> Bill Baka
>>
>> Do you have to go through a wardrobe to get there?
>>
> Not a whole change but Levis come in handy on some parts of the
> non-trail. I hit the swimming hole on the way back and wade in clothes
hahaha! Priceless. Superb trolling.
I was referring to this meaning :
http://new.rejesus.co.uk/images/area_uploads/cslewis/behind_wardrobe.jpg
Simon Lewis
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:55:48 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Simon Lewis wrote:
>>> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
>>>> nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
>>>> point presentation for you.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Baka
>>>
>>> Do you have to go through a wardrobe to get there?
>>>
>> Not a whole change but Levis come in handy on some parts of the
>> non-trail. I hit the swimming hole on the way back and wade in clothes
>> and all then undress and wring out my clothes. At least I can get
>> un-sweaty after the hardest part of the ride. There is a pond/swimming
>> hole at the bottom of the water fall but enough people have drowned
>> there, there is a fence around it, and I don't want to get sucked into
>> the waterfall.
>
> Wow, I didn't know that waterfalls can suck you in. Are you sure about
> that, Bill? Really sure?
>
> By the way, the "wardrobe" question above had nothing to do with changing
> clothes. A wardrobe is also a piece of furniture. It has to do with a
> recent popular movie... See if you can figure it out, dummy.
>
> Post the pics, Bill.
And for a spot that somehow eludes google's satellite cameras it sure
seems quite commercialised. What with fencing, dead people and a
McDonalds at the upper "plateau".
Bill Baka has to be a very funny troll!
Paul O
> <snip>
> ???????????
> We have some idiot drivers around here but hardly homicidal.
> I did have to bail earlier this year and I am damned glad I was on the
> wrong side. A new Muni bus was driving with the right wheels in the
> middle of the bike lane. Even when I bailed and he had to have seen
> me, he still stayed in the bike lane. Legally riding I would not be
> alive to bug you about wrong way riding.
> Simple enough or do I need to post a picture?
I don't know. Maybe that bus driver doesn't like hobos...
--
Paul D Oosterhout
I work for SAIC (but I don't speak for SAIC)
Colin Nelson
That's another problem with 'wrong way riding' ... 'Barmy
Bill' was actually facing the driver, who possibly thought '
The silly sod wants to play Chicken ... Hang on ... I
recognize that face ... OK ...'
--
Colin N.
Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... But the wind is mostly in
your face
Bill Baka
> Dan C <youmust...@lan.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:55:48 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:
>>
>>> Simon Lewis wrote:
>>>> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
>>>>> nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
>>>>> point presentation for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Baka
>>>> Do you have to go through a wardrobe to get there?
>>>>
>>> Not a whole change but Levis come in handy on some parts of the
>>> non-trail. I hit the swimming hole on the way back and wade in clothes
>>> and all then undress and wring out my clothes. At least I can get
>>> un-sweaty after the hardest part of the ride. There is a pond/swimming
>>> hole at the bottom of the water fall but enough people have drowned
>>> there, there is a fence around it, and I don't want to get sucked into
>>> the waterfall.
>> Wow, I didn't know that waterfalls can suck you in. Are you sure about
>> that, Bill? Really sure?
Really fucking sure. The official death toll is 22 people dead, hence
the fence.
>>
>> By the way, the "wardrobe" question above had nothing to do with changing
>> clothes. A wardrobe is also a piece of furniture. It has to do with a
>> recent popular movie... See if you can figure it out, dummy.
>>
>> Post the pics, Bill.
>
> And for a spot that somehow eludes google's satellite cameras it sure
> seems quite commercialised. What with fencing, dead people and a
> McDonalds at the upper "plateau".
WTF you talking about??? I tried to follow it and the trail is so
non-existent I lost it even though I know the general direction.
>
> Bill Baka has to be a very funny troll!
>
It isn't a troll. At least I know I will never be bothered by the likes
of you city sissies.
Bill Baka
Dan C
Once again, I ask you. Post the pics, Bill. How come you are avoiding
this issue now? You offered to do so, now do it.
Dan C
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:10:33 -0700, Bill Baka wrote:
>
>> Simon Lewis wrote:
>>> Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>>> And people wonder why I ride wrong way when there is no bike lane. I
>>>> guess I will have to use my web site to post pictures of some of the
>>>> roads/trails I ride. I could make a whole chapter out of my rides to
>>>> my private waterfall. Nobody knows it is there and the trail requires
>>>> biking, hiking, and dragging the bike up slate covered pieces of
>>>> non-trail.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Baka
>>>
>>> Do you ever tire of making shit up?
>>>
>> What, you can't handle the truth? The waterfall is so hard to get to
>> nobody goes to it. I do have pictures on CD so I could put up a power
>> point presentation for you.
>>
>> Bill Baka
>
> Once again, I ask you. Post the pics, Bill. How come you are avoiding
> this issue now? You offered to do so, now do it.
Hey Bill. How come you are not responding to the many requests for you
to post some pics, *AFTER* you volunteered to do so?
Has your mouth finally caught up with you, Bill? You made some claims,
offered to post pics, and then when people say "yes, post the pics"...,
you disappear. How do you think that makes you look, Bill?
Post the pics, Bill, and shut me up.